Forest Sack Dyche & England Keep Tuchel | The Football Boardroom

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1:03Christian Purslow:Welcome to another bonus episode of the Football Boardroom, less than 24 hours after our first. Thomas Frank went yesterday and that episode is out now. Sean Dyche has gone from Nottingham Forest today. But elsewhere, at least one manager is staying put. The Football Association has announced that Thomas Tuchel has signed a two-year extension to his deal as England head coach. Christian if you're in the boardroom at the city ground and you are Maranakis and I tried to get into the boardroom once and there's a slight sort of Bond villain element to it you have to have to press against a wall and then the wall slides back and there is Maranakis sitting at this table he almost needs a sort of cat to sort of be a bit be stroking as he decides the fate of so many people.

1:54Christian Purslow:Are you surprised? If you'd been in that boardroom and you'd seen a performance like that, 35 attempts on goal and no goal and Nuno's West Ham beginning to get into form, would you have reacted like Maranakis had?

2:09Henry Winter:Well, I'm not going to say I was surprised to hear that he had gone overnight because even Mr. Maranakis' biggest fans would describe his patience levels as low and his volatility levels as quite high. This, I think, you know, with Cooper, Nuno, Ange and now Deich, that's four managers in four years. So, as I say, not the biggest surprise in the world. If you unpick the record, I'm sure you've looked at that. Obviously, when Sean arrived, they expected him to move the club, meaningfully up into the safe territory of mid-table. That hasn't happened. But in terms of the underlying ratio of points, etc., I think it's been respectable.

3:02Henry Winter:And as yesterday, when we were talking about Frank and Spurs' options, and I described Sean as the last remaining survival specialist, he is now available again. Might Spurs think about him as a survival option? who knows but you know Maranakis has definitely got rid of somebody who has been pretty good at keeping teams in the Premier League so I can only conclude Henry from the inside and he's got the front row seat that he did not believe it was going to happen with Sean.

3:34Christian Purslow:Christian what we're hearing is that certain senior players have one or two issues with Sean Daishi's style and Sean is actually a more sophisticated manager than often proceed I remember going down to Burnley's training ground and he was laughing he said everyone thinks it's just a couple of sort of porter cabins here and then we sort of rush out and play fairly simple football but it was a far more sophisticated operation there at their training ground he's a far more sort of considered measured individual than his slight sort of you know the proverbial bouncer image of him certainly on social media occasionally suggests he is a more nuanced manager and I think we have to absolutely sort of understand that.

4:15Christian Purslow:And he obviously came in and looked at the players after Ange Postacoglu and felt that they needed improving their fitness. I think the bleep gun at training was going off like an akak battery. I think they needed to improve their fitness. But I think there are deeper issues here in terms of, obviously it's money, player power politics in this case. But I think there's this extra element of when Edu came in in the summer as sporting director and the type of players that he wanted to bring in. And that clashed with, I think, certainly Nuno when he was there briefly at the start of the season. He did really appreciate that.

4:57Christian Purslow:And then you look into this summer and by all accounts, Sean wanted to bring in Lewis Dunk and Dwight McNeil, battle-hardened Premier League players who would be useful in a relegation battle. So there are many elements. From your perspective, having been in boardrooms, you will see that relationship between coach and sporting directors as absolutely paramount.

5:23Henry Winter:Yeah, well, listen, it was well documented that there was a complete falling out between Edu and Nuno. But by the time Sean arrived, obviously, the first job was to get to January with meaningful improvement and then see if activity in January could be used, hopefully, to kick on another level. And as I say, you know, in terms of the league table, it hasn't quite happened for him. But there's a long way to go. And I'm sure Sean would feel that if he has put those hard yards in for his players on the training ground, they might have reaped the benefits later. But I think there's a bigger issue here, Henry.

6:03Henry Winter:And this is really the Premier League today. And it's money, money, money. That terrifying prospect of the drop makes people do, let's say, less volatile people than Mr. Maranakis do strange things. because let's be quite clear, at a time when Premier League money is exploding, the next set of international rights will kick it on even further. At a time when European football has never been more lucrative and Nottingham Forest have been part of that and have seen it and felt it, It seems to me the prospect of a huge backward step into the murky waters of guaranteed huge losses in the championship, mass departures, cash flow issues, FFP nightmares.

7:02Henry Winter:I mean, it really is. Every Premier League owner's horror show and the merest whiff of it can make owners do strange things. And binning a known and proven survival specialist is exactly what you do when you think that trap door is looming. That's what's gone on here, H.

7:25Christian Purslow:Yeah, I'm sure also that the spectre of Nuno reviving West Ham's form. I mean, actually, Nottingham Forest's form has not been so bad. I mean, it's what won defeat in their last six Premier League games. And actually, the last time I looked, Sean Dice had just been nominated as for manager of the month for January. And normally that's a curse. And we see the manager at the training ground beaming with the trophy and then he goes and gets thumped in his next game. now it's actually the nominated managers that are getting sort of cursed in advance I think actually if you look at his results and his impact and a lot of it was actually praise I think he had an early defeat and then went on a decent run with Nottingham Forest and the players clearly responded I mean I absolutely take your point and you know the cost you're the numbers man and the cost of relegation remember what happened to Sunderland when they went down took them a while to come back Leeds United as well and it absolutely will focus the fears and the concerns of the owner.

8:22Henry Winter:But also the momentum, H, because on the positive side, we need to give credit where credit's due. You know, Forrest, a fantastically historic club on some metrics, the most, the oldest club in professional football in England. Where they have gone in the last few years since finally, finally, finally getting out of the Championship and into the Premier League, you know, has been wonderful. I happen to think it's the most incredible place to watch football, the city ground. I think it has a claim to be the most powerful home crowd.

8:53Christian Purslow:Yeah, I'm not sure they're the oldest. I think some people across the river might.

8:57Henry Winter:No, Notch County, but in terms of top flight clubs today, of the top flight clubs. So we need to give credit where credit's due. And to have, you know, finally cracked the code of re-establishing yourselves in the Premier League only to flirt with a backward step would represent a dire, a dire loss of momentum. And, you know, Maranakis' ambition is indisputable. The spending proves it. And, you know, there is a passion and an emotion there that you don't see in many owners and an accountability and a decisiveness, all of which I admire. I have to say, I do admire. But if he was asking my advice, I would draw a comparison to my old club, Aston Villa.

9:46Henry Winter:There are many parallels, Henry. Two former European Cup winners, not that far apart down the road. Both clubs finding themselves in dire situations in the championship, miles away from their natural seat at the top table of English football. Both clubs go on a journey. Both clubs have extremely wealthy, successful and rich owners who are highly ambitious and both clubs get out of the Championship, get in the Premier League, get through that first really difficult season by clinging on to the bottom rung of the ladder to stay in the Premier League when all the fates conspire against you, all the rules make that so difficult.

10:29Henry Winter:So, so far, we're parallel. And then the big difference. You look at that record, four managers in four years, Steve Cooper out of the Championship really, Nuno did well at Wolves but also did badly at Wolves in the end Ange failed at Spurs fired by Spurs and Daishi a guy who sort of specialises even he would accept keeping teams out of trouble contrasted out to Villa

10:55Christian Purslow:In fact it's to Ange he did get a Spurs for European Trojan

10:58Henry Winter:He did, he did but I'm talking here about Premier League track records over the long run and elite records and I would contrast that volatility in the dugout under Maranakis to the stability of Villa with Unai Emery, who anyone would accept in terms of pedigree experience is a level above those four managers that Forrest have gone for. And I would say that is the key difference. Villa find themselves third in the Premier League, back in Europe consistently now, actually looking at a potential second season in the Champions League, worst case scenario, top five going deep in the Europa League versus Forest.

11:44Henry Winter:And I would say the key difference has been aiming high in the coaching market for permanence, long-term stability and backing an elite manager with a long-term project. I'm sure Mr. Maranakis would agree with me, by the way. As the goal, the problem you have is when it goes wrong mid-season, you find yourself in a situation where attracting that sort of manager right now would be impossible. So you're back into the caretaker dynamic we talked about yesterday with Spurs. But that's what I'd be focused on if I was Maranakis.

12:17Christian Purslow:They're already being linked with Vito Pereira. I'm not sure a name that would completely fill Nottingham Forest supporters, particularly those.

12:25Henry Winter:On a caretaker basis, presumably?

12:27Christian Purslow:Probably just to the end of the season. There'll be four managers this season. But just in terms of your point about Aston Villa and the owners there, they've brought stability. Maranakis has done a lot of good things at Nottingham Forest in terms of the investment in certain periods in the team. You look at the players that they have brought in, not recently, but certainly in previous seasons. But it's become a roller coaster. It's become a soap opera. the relegation fights, the points deductions, the issues and owner going on the pitch as well. Absolutely understand it. I've met him. He's a larger-than-life character in terms of the charisma.

13:10Christian Purslow:But he is an upmarket meddler in terms of team affairs, going into the dressing room. That is the difference with Aston Villa.

13:21Henry Winter:Yeah, it is a difference. Stylistically, you're right, but not the substantive difference. The substantive difference is the quality of the coaching appointment. Very similar approach to incoming players post-promotion. I think we spent£110 million in that crucial year when you get out of the Championship. You've got about six weeks to build a team for the Premier League. I think they spent over£120 million the following year. We were 10 players. They were about 20 players. I have honestly tracked Forrest with that direct comparison in mind. And the key difference is when my owners said to me in 22, it's time to go elite and make the investment in the coach as opposed to necessarily the players.

14:10Henry Winter:Overinvest in coaching quality. What a good decision that was. And Maranakis hasn't quite done the same thing. and he's reaping the consequences of that in terms of volatility and underperformance on the pitch. There's another comp I'd like to make, H, because you have talked about investment, and I think this is a bit of a hobby horse of mine. You know, the city ground, the comparison is to Everton, OK, another hugely historic English football club. Everton was stuck at Goodison Park, which was falling apart at the seams. I think the last decade of the Victorian era was when that ground, came to be their home city ground, same decade, 1890s, 39 ,000 at Goodison, 31 ,000 at the city ground, obviously too small and really not modern enough to drive real meaningful performance improvement in revenue.

15:10Henry Winter:And Everton have fixed that issue. Okay, they've gone and done it. And they are in a position now, I think, to capitalise on that move. Forest are stuck at the city ground. Same with training facilities. We invested hugely in getting Bodymore Heath right. So it was an elite environment to attract the best managers and players. I don't think Unai Emery would have agreed to work at Villa if we didn't have an elite facility for him to coach players in. And many of the players we signed were attracted to that. From what I understand, that's not the case at Nottingham Forest. So they have, in many respects, they've put all the emphasis on players, not enough emphasis on getting the right coach and not enough emphasis on getting the right facilities and professional environment, elite environment to improve.

15:57Henry Winter:And it feels to me they're at an inflection point where they're stuck between a lot of things that look and feel a bit EFL, but with an owner and a playing squad that wants to be in Europe. and they're sort of stuck in the middle. And for me, getting the manager right is the way to fix that conundrum.

16:15Christian Purslow:I think they need to get the sporting director right as well. I just don't think, I mean, Edu did a decent job at Arsenal, but I don't think they particularly mourned when he left. Really? I think, I mean, look, a lot of the players, the good players that Forrest have got, and they have got good players, arrived pre-him. I think if you look at, I mean, Elliot Anderson, clearly is, I wonder what his mindset is now. Well, I'm really interested you mentioned that.

16:43Henry Winter:I really think, do you know what? I mean, I feel bad because Forrest fans won't like me saying this, but from a financial standpoint, from a risk standpoint, you know, the reality is that they're sitting on gold in Elliot Anderson and certainly near gold in Morgan Gibbs White, even in Callum Hudson-Odoi, a brilliant signing, by the way, in terms of the enterprise.

17:09Christian Purslow:Malenkovich and Murillo, if we want to expand it out.

17:12Henry Winter:But we know, Henry, you're a culprit in this. We know that when the transfer market explodes in a World Cup year, those English players tend to get, shall we say, a lot more following in bigging up. And if Elliott maintains his starting position in the England XI and goes well in the World Cup, you know he is an obvious target for big clubs kind of either way and Forest fans won't welcome me pointing this out but at least at least compared to other clubs that have flirted with relegation if the worst were come to the worst and I really hope it doesn't but it is definitely a prospect they would have incredibly valuable assets to at least alleviate the financial crisis if not the football issue of now finding themselves well and truly back to square one.

18:10Christian Purslow:Not too much consolation for the fans if they see Elliot Anderson walk out the door, if they see Morgan Gibbs White go, if they see Milenkovic go. None at all, none at all. And it's a particular concern if Edu isn't bringing in the right calibre of players.

18:25Henry Winter:Well, I was also surprised to see Alanga go, who was absolutely brilliant for Forrest last year and who hasn't quite done it yet for Toon, has he?

18:37Christian Purslow:He did it the other night, first half.

18:39Henry Winter:Yeah, but coming back to my essential point, because I want to, and it is a mixed benefit, but they have built a valuable squad, is what I'm really trying to say. And I haven't studied the underlying who gets the credit for these various players. For me, ultimately, you said it yourself. You called him a meddler. I would call Mr. Maranakis a highly hands-on owner. And I think a lot of the buying has been very good. And if it hadn't been, they wouldn't have achieved what they have achieved, which is out of the championship, finding themselves in Europe two years later. So we have to give credit where credit's due.

19:19Henry Winter:The worst case scenario is having got a team, Henry, that needs to be built on to go to the next level would be for that team to be decimated because financial results flowing from finishing low or even worse, relegated, mean their best players all have to leave to comply with fair play.

19:39Christian Purslow:Christian, this is why I love doing this with you because it reflects our different personalities and approaches to the game. You see the boardroom view, you see the owner's view. I'm looking at the moment at Sean Dyche, a good manager who had Nottingham Forest in his blood, would have loved to have played there, broke his leg, who had Stone and Wown within, they've gone as well. Those two represent the heartbeat of former Forest teams and the brains of former Forest teams. Have they gone as well?