Man City & The 115 Charges | The Football Boardroom

17:39Christian Purslow:You are not putting a possible date in which this could, there's nothing in the Premier League rule books that says an appeal has to be sorted within a year.

17:49Henry Winter:New rules do have a very specific guidance on appeal, but it's unclear whether they would apply to these old set of rules. And I can certainly see a scenario where there is no progress on sanctioning, even if there is any guilty finding. and we must keep repeating, we have no idea what the decision or verdict will be on the 115. We're discussing a scenario, a scenario where there are some guilty findings on the more serious charges. And I did also want to repeat that point, Henry. We are talking here about these charges are not all equivalent. And so I think both parties will be looking at...

18:28Christian Purslow:So can the Premier League appeal?

18:31Henry Winter:In a scenario where Manchester City were found innocent of all charges, Of course, the Premier League can also appeal. I'm going to say, and I know you're going to pin me on this, I do not expect them to do so. And that is probably because in their shoes, they really would be cognizant of the broader football world, the broader world of fans in general, thinking these matters have already gone on too long. and another factor I think we should talk about which would be racking up further legal expense, which I think has become a significant issue within the Premier League.

19:08Christian Purslow:Sorry, on that, what sort of figures are we looking at? I mean, there were reports last September, September 2025, that City, and these are just reports, but the City had spent£30 million on this case. Okay. And what would the Premier League's figure be?

19:22Henry Winter:The number I've got in my head so far on this case is£45 to£50 million.

19:26Christian Purslow:So we're probably, when we finally get full-time, extra time, possibly replay and appeal, we're looking at£100 million plus on this case.

19:38Henry Winter:Yeah, and don't forget there is an important point on cost as well, which I don't think our listeners may have focused on, which is of course, again, let's go back to our three scenarios. fully innocent across the 115, full guilt across the 115 or somewhere in between, the panel will also seek representations from parties as to the award of costs. And in a scenario where one party has a complete victory, they would expect their cost to be picked up by the other side. So it's not only an issue of quantum, it's an issue of who pays. And I think that's hanging over football. Let me just also make my point on this moment when the decision lands.

20:19Henry Winter:So, yes, I've told you that I would not expect the Premier League to appeal a comprehensive defeat in these matters. OK, I would absolutely expect City to appeal because they've done so before.

20:34Christian Purslow:And they're convinced of their innocence.

20:36Henry Winter:And it is entirely their prerogative and right to do so. And why wouldn't they do so? Guilt or no guilt is essentially the decision. Appeal or no appeal and what that does to the timetable. a deferral of any discussion on sanctioning to post an appeal, which could push this timetable out further, and then a subject that I think encapsulates all three, which is, let's call it publicity, press release, the announcement. What we all hear as just you and me, Joe Public.

21:08Christian Purslow:Well, the last time we had press releases on a similar subject was after the APT, and basically I read them both, and they both, City and the Premier League, claimed victory. so I mean how much can you actually read into these press releases when it comes out

21:20Henry Winter:not only is that probably true H but I would describe it as a relatively thin document and this is my point so the contents of an announcement after this decision lands will itself. The contents will themselves be heavily discussed, negotiated by the lawyers for the League and for City, again, depending on which of the scenarios we face. Let me try and be City's lawyers in that scenario. Let's say there's a scenario where there are some guilty findings, and let's say I'm right, and in that scenario, they appeal. They would argue that very little should be said at that stage, that we are appealing and we therefore think it would be wrong for too much information to be in the public domain because that information, let's say the full details of the decision of the judges, everything and anything to do with that particular decision.

22:22Christian Purslow:So just on that, do the judges have to clear the press release?

22:25Henry Winter:Yes, that's my point. My point is that there is a whole series of follow-up discussions where lawyers on both sides will be talking to these judges and publicity will be a big subject. And Manchester City, in the case where they're appealing, a guilty verdict of kind, will argue for minimal, minimal publicity because they would argue, I believe, that too much detail could be prejudicial to their appeal.

22:49Christian Purslow:So they're going to be very short, terse...

22:52Henry Winter:Would be their argument. We appeal, see you in a bit. Correct. There has been a decision made and Manchester City have appealed it, would be the most extreme and brief announcement. Now, let's be clear. The starting position, and I know you're finding this hard to believe, the starting position, and I want to be very clear on this, and we know this because in the, is it four preceding cases where, in fact, Premier League clubs have been found guilty of breaches of financial regulation, Everton 1 and 2, Forrest and Leicester, we were able to read the decision in full. That is the starting position here.

23:33Henry Winter:And I believe that is the start position that these three judges would adopt in these matters. And in the case of a, you know, significant victory for the Premier League on a large number of guilty findings, the Premier League would be arguing, their lawyers would be arguing, we need to be consistent with our duty of transparency in these matters. But I am telling you that will be a heavily argued matter between lawyers on both sides. And sitting here today, I cannot reassure you or our listeners that we will have huge amounts of information when this decision lands. And I think we should zoom out.

24:10Henry Winter:OK, I'm sorry if our listeners are surprised to hear these matters could go on for a lot, lot longer. and they're probably not going to be hearing everything they expect to hear in due course, other than in the case of a comprehensive and complete exoneration of Manchester City. In that scenario, these matters will be put to bed and we will have full transparent and full detail and everybody will move on. That's one scenario where we have clarity. But where there's any ambiguity, mixed findings, some guilt, some otherwise, I expect these matters to go on to the next level. Why do I say that? I say it because another question I get asked is, you know, isn't this terrible for, you know, the Premier League, terrible for Manchester City?

24:54Henry Winter:Well, let's start with Man City. I mean, you tell me, you know, on the field of play, I don't see any sign that this kind of legal case hanging over the club bothers anybody at Man City. Well, look at the transfer window.

25:06Christian Purslow:I mean, we've already discussed and you discussed it in great depth. The Mark Gaze moved. Antoine Semenya moved as well. I mean, these two purchases, I mean, it's almost sort of business as usual.

25:20Henry Winter:Yeah, many people have pointed out to me just how the phenomenal success rate that they've had in trophies won over the very long period that these matters have been open. So on the field, I think most people would say they haven't really missed a beat. My area of expertise off the field, I am struck by the fact, I've pointed out in previous episodes, the phenomenal financial results of Citi.

25:42Christian Purslow:I mean, the Forbes list that came out recently just showed their revenue is extraordinary. Correct.

25:48Henry Winter:The only club to have£700 million of revenue three times. I would also say that probably the business community around football, one metric they would apply to the health of top football clubs is the quality and calibre of sponsors and sponsorship deals. and Manchester City in the last week or two literally have added two commercial partners, one in BYD, the Chinese EV maker, one of the fastest growing companies in the world, the dominant EV maker in the world now, nudging ahead of Tesla. Every single football club in the world would want BYD as their automotive car partner. They've gone to Manchester City.

26:33Henry Winter:There are no suggestions of any links whatsoever of Manchester City's ownership group to BYD. It is a huge Chinese public company. And nearer home, the fastest growing fintech company in the world, Revolut, a company that's expected to have a huge public offering in the next year or two, some of the most prestigious owners in the world, Revolut has become the fintech banking partner.

26:59Christian Purslow:So both of those are a tick for Manchester City. They're not just a tick.

27:03Henry Winter:They are a huge endorsement by major business entities that they want their brand associated with Man City. So any sense, H, that the business community is kind of holding off endorsing Manchester City because it's got some as yet undetermined legal case is for the birds. I promise you, if Billy Hogan from Liverpool was here or Vinay at Spurs or Todd Bowley at Chelsea, and they were offered a chance to have Revolut and BYD as sponsors, they pull your arm off. So that, for me, is an argument why I see no reason that City might say, you know, we should settle this case, we should give up, we shouldn't appeal.

27:50Henry Winter:Why on earth would they draw that? They believe they're innocent, they have a legitimate course of action, I expect them to take it.

27:57Christian Purslow:Can I just rewind? You were at Liverpool at the time when these alleged breaches began, 9 to 18. What was it like being at Liverpool when you suddenly realised you were up against Manchester City's financial firepower?

28:13Henry Winter:One of my peers used the phrase, the world changed. That was such an insightful observation because it kind of did change. I was at Liverpool summer of 10 when, to me, the moment where it felt like it was changing for good. I know when they arrived in 08, Rubinho, etc. But they signed Yaya Torre and David Silva. Okay. Two members of, well, Yaya Torre, a member of the famous 08 Barcelona club side, footballer at his peak, David Siva, Valencia, but a key member of the 08 Spain team. They came in on between 240 and 250 ,000 pounds a week. This was a time when we had, I had personally just done a new agreement for our star forward, Fernando Torres, also a member of the same all-conquering Spanish team one of maybe at that time one of the hottest properties in world football certainly one of the most famous players what a player by the way but the point I had just done him a new deal at peak Premier League money it was two and a half times less than Yaya and David so over

29:16Christian Purslow:about a hundred

29:17Henry Winter:about a hundred thousand pounds a week which at before those deals he was as you know happy as Larry My point being that overnight wages in the Premier League changed. And I thought, wow, to quote my friend, the world has indeed changed. And looking back at it, by the way, a year later was when they first had Etihad as their stadium and shirt sponsor. I think that came in in 11, initially a 10-year deal. It's been renewed a few times. But could anybody sitting there that summer, me included at Liverpool, have thought that in 15 or 16 years' time, Manchester City will have won a multiple of trophies more than anybody else and will be the highest revenue club in the Premier League.

30:02Henry Winter:We'll have the most famous manager in the world. We'll have the highest-paced centre forward in the world. Nobody was looking that far ahead.

30:09Christian Purslow:In that period you were talking about when you were doing that Torres deal, when Manchester City, and this has to be acknowledged as a plus, what they've done for the east of Manchester. I mean, that area, I remember Brian Marwood showing me around and talking about sort of the plans that the club had. And I think since then, when you look at the campus, when you look at the development of the south stands and the north stand ongoing, that is more than in the academy and all that area, that is more than a billion pounds that they've invested. I'm just looking at the sort of the pluses that they've done.

30:45Christian Purslow:But also from a Manchester City perspective, there's always been this feeling the tyranny of the majority and pitching themselves almost as these not upstarts but the underdogs very wealthy underdogs who have come in to try to challenge the cartel as their fans see it and did the cartel as the Manchester City fans would call the established order of Manchester United Liverpool did they try to resist that?

31:13Henry Winter:Well I think you're getting into a different area which is the rules themselves as opposed to the enforcement of rules. And I think we should be clear to our listeners what that distinction is. We've talked largely today about the Premier League seeking to enforce its rules and Manchester City defending itself against those charges, and that will be determined by three judges. none of that goes to whether the rules themselves are serving the game well and that is a very different question and you are straying into that area as you point out some of the many benefits that an owner like Manchester City has brought to the club and to the city and to the region My nephew is a massive Manchester City fan.

32:06Henry Winter:My in-laws are City fans. He said to me this morning, you know, we used to park on Wasteland that is now the campus. That's only 15 years ago. Most people from East Manchester can see and feel just how dramatic the transformation in the fortunes of that area have been, let alone the football club. And there are many people who believe that that, you know, should be reflected. Of course, that is all tied into the dramatic change in the performance of the football club in that era. I tend to be of the view that the rules really ought to, in some way, shape or form, have a period after new owners where there is, shall we say, a grace period.

32:52Henry Winter:Nobody buys a football club wanting to go sideways. They want to invest. They want to advance a football club's fortunes. the rules should be much more accommodating of that. And we'll talk later about the fact that the new SCR rules seek to address that. But I'm talking about something much more fundamental.

33:10Christian Purslow:I think SCR has a whole episode on its own. I think it is. Let's part that for another day.

33:14Henry Winter:But for today, I think it's fair to say, and I think you make your point, that whether we're talking about Newcastle, whether we're talking about Manchester City, or other owners indeed have invested heavily in football clubs, the issue of today's episode has been about enforcement of rules. And I just want to land this point because, again, I don't want our listeners to have any confusion about this. I've heard people say, you know, it's crazy the Premier League is racking up all these legal fees. You know, it's not fair that legal fees are spit equally, that, you know, Liverpool and Arsenal care hugely about these matters because they've been directly head-to-head with Man City seeking to win trophies through this period, whereas clubs at the lower end of the league feel perhaps less strongly about it.

34:00Henry Winter:And yet the legal bill, 50 million split 20 ways, is two and a half million pounds a club. So people get worked up about that. People noticed that they settled the lesser case last year. And the sense was somehow that the Premier League clubs were just running out of patience on spending money. I think that's really dangerous thinking, Henry, because the logic of saying they shouldn't spend money is a logic that says that the league should not seek to enforce its rulebook. Let me tell you why that's so dangerous. The whole system depends on football clubs from Premier League downwards being capable of being acquired on the open market relatively seamlessly.

34:44Henry Winter:You mentioned Gladstone, you mentioned the Victorian era. From day one, English football was set up as private enterprises. and there's been a free market in the shares of football clubs for well over 150 years. Why is that important? It's important because most clubs lose money and owners often run out of money or they run out of love or they run out of patience. And at that moment, you need another owner to step in. Banks aren't financing football clubs. Owners finance football clubs and owners need to be able to buy football clubs. And ask yourself the question, if you buy into an industry where you have no idea what the rules are, let alone whether they will ever be enforced, that makes investment very, very, very difficult.

35:28Henry Winter:And in a world where the only thing that's changed in 150 years is the scale of investment, the price of buying a club, maybe the international identity of many of those owners, doesn't really matter. You've got to be able to buy and sell clubs and you can't do so if you think you're buying into one regime and in fact that regime doesn't exist because the league doesn't enforce it. So that's the argument for a league doing its job and seeking to enforce. To do that, they have to employ lawyers and it's perfectly reasonable for clubs to defend themselves with lawyers. And I'm afraid, A, it costs a lot of money and B, it takes a long time and C, the outcome is indeterminate.

36:08Christian Purslow:So, sorry, you think£100 million is justified in legal fees for this?

36:13Henry Winter:I think spending money to enforce your rules is the logical consequence of a rules-based society. And of course, I wish it had been faster. Of course, I wish the lawyers would charge less money. Okay. But that is the legal system in which we operate. And I don't think we should be criticising boards of directors at the Premier League or executives of the Premier League for doing their job.

36:38Christian Purslow:No, I understand that. And your point is right. And we've stressed it all along the Premier League are the police in this. And they're not the lawyers and they're not the judges. I understand all that. You made the point about your nephew being a Manchester City fan and you talk to City fans and they are, you know, they obviously, they defiantly back their club and they've enjoyed this ride that they've had. But if I can flip that, and I've been obviously talked to a lot of fans and in the last 24 hours I've been polling the views of Liverpool fans. And Liverpool fans, the more measured ones that I've spoken to, are absolutely splenetic about how long it's taken, the fact that it's robbed them as they see it.

37:26Christian Purslow:And this is all predicated on the fact that if City are found guilty, and as we've constantly said, they absolutely refute all the allegations of 115 financial breaches. but Liverpool fans will say well what's happened to us? We've been robbed of certain moments going back to that period that's under scrutiny City won nine trophies in that period I mean eight and then you could throw in another community shield three League Cups three titles FA Cup one community shield arguably two it was a huge moment when they began their dominance so Liverpool fans have a case but they also make the point about it's not just us.

38:09Christian Purslow:Now, we know how tribal it is, and in the court of public opinion, it will be inevitably critical towards Manchester City because fans are tribal. And if they believe City are guilty, they want some recompense. What is interesting is that they want the trophies null and void. They want some element of compensation, not to themselves, because it's so difficult to divide this up. But maybe a fine, if it is, and a fine wouldn't actually make too much difference for Manchester City given their wealth, and that invested into grassroots. So actually a sort of slightly community-related approach to how they feel.

38:50Christian Purslow:But from your argument earlier, this is sanctioning and all those elements are, if there are any sanctions, are going to take place further down the road. I think so. So we have to take, I know we're called the football boardroom, but we have to take this out of the football boardroom and not so much take it into the court of public opinion, but take it down to the fans because you talk about owners being investing in and being so important for the future of clubs and I accept that point but actually it's down to fans it is down to fans without fans this game is nothing and the fans these fans of other clubs who you talk to them you talk to Leicester fans you mentioned Everton fans Leicester fans and Nottingham Forest fans who've all been punished talk to them they absolutely want Manchester City if found guilty absolute caveat they deny everything they want proper commensurate punishment and I think the game and I know you say it's down to three judges what the sanctions will be and obviously it depends on the breakdown of any guilty verdicts if there are any but I think that has to be reflected this is not simply about Manchester City this is about justice for Liverpool fans for Arsenal fans for other fans who feel absolutely wrong that they were denied that moment of the trophy the cup final, the title run-in, seeing City celebrating something that they felt should have been theirs.

40:13Christian Purslow:That has to be reflected as well.

40:15Henry Winter:There is a scenario, by the way, where those extremely difficult decisions, and I agree with you 100%, they are staggeringly difficult, incredibly emotive, very tribal, almost impossible to get to the bottom of as a football person trying to think through making everybody happy. I think that's almost impossible. One person's, you know, grassroots solution of money is another person's, well, we're the team that suffered most losses. Other clubs launching losses. It is an absolute mess. And that is why I don't think these matters get resolved as by the way the APT case did in an out-of-court settlement between the Premier League and Manchester City.

41:01Henry Winter:I want to be really clear on that. I think it would be a terrible mistake for the Premier League to be tempted. Let's say we get a rather ambiguous verdict in the next few weeks. Some guilt on some of the charges. Both sides think, you know what, let's just reach an agreement for a reasonable sanction, reasonable settlement, move on. I think that would be a terrible mistake and I don't expect it to happen precisely because I agree with you, it would be impossible to keep everybody happy. So the smart decision, if I'm the chairman of the Premier League, is let's leave this to the lawyers. Let's leave it to the process that everybody signed up to.

41:42Henry Winter:And those three judges locked in a room, ultimately, ultimately having to determine sanction will go to precedent. My point is a simple one, that when this is left to the judges, however frustrating it is that that takes so long, and however frustrating it is that we don't know when that will happen, will be in the land of precedent. And the precedent is sporting sanction. And the sporting sanction is likely to be major points deductions, which ultimately could translate into relegation. And how do you feel about that? I mean, from a fan's perspective.

42:16Christian Purslow:From a fan's perspective, I think a lot of them would like to see if City are found guilty. And again, your point that you absolutely started out with which is key. It's a question of how many and which ones if any at all. Agreed. And again, City deny any wrongdoing. Is relegation down to a league two starting again and climbing up and what a journey that would be. And I'm sure there were some City fans who probably quite like that fight their way up through the divisions. We've seen it. It was a sort of Juventus Rangers style. There would be like a sort of Hollywood element of them. My nephew

42:53Henry Winter:You told me they sing a song, City are going down with a billion in the bank. Yeah, they're a very...

42:58Christian Purslow:Sorry, just one point that I wanted to pick you up on that you made, which I thought was really significant. Could there be, could other clubs sue?

43:08Henry Winter:Well, it's just part of the staggering complexity of the denouement, post-resolution of the legal matters, i.e. once there have been determinations on the points of law, once they have or have not been appealed and that has been resolved. Ultimately, ultimately, the implementation of sanctioning is extremely complicated, the right sanction. And as you say, that's before you get to whether other clubs feel in some way, shape or form, they now have a legal claim for damages. All that would need to be wrapped up. and I would not envy anybody that challenge. I think it's really significant. Somebody has said to me, you know, if City win, then all the rule book gets ripped up.

43:59Henry Winter:That's a sensational point of view. It's not true because the rule book is already different. The law is very organic in all walks of life, including football. It evolves, it develops and the rules around associated parties have been meaningfully changed. They have been accepted, by the way, in that recent out-of-court settlement by City. So it's not true that those rules would all be ripped up.

44:28Christian Purslow:That's a really important point. Christian, we've got to wrap it up. If there are lessons that football can learn from what will be one of the most seismic, significant, huge moments in its 163-year history, what do you think the lessons the Premier League will learn?

44:45Henry Winter:Well, I think some lessons have already been learned and they... Briefly, what are those? Okay. I think the single biggest frustration, I mean, that's a hell of a statement, but the aspect of implementing financial regulation that drives people most mad is the huge amount of delay. So trying to have a financial regulation framework that allows for what we call real-time sanctioning rather than deeply delayed retrospective is a core goal of the new financial framework, which we'll talk about in a subsequent episode. And I think, sadly, the biggest lesson learned is that it's one thing having rules and seeking to implement them, but effectively making them stick, I think has defeated most regulators to date in football, which suggests to me that the rules need changing.

45:43Christian Purslow:Yeah, I think the one lesson is that there are no winners. I think it's damaged football. I think it's just embarrassing. We have this fantastic we've got the best sports league in the world and the discussion episodes like this, you talking to fans on the tube, is so much of it is about the 115 and I think we absolutely need to clarify that but the one guaranteed winners are the

46:08Henry Winter:lawyers. Let's talk about next week big news our first ever guest none other than gareth southgate's gonna join us that's gonna be superb yeah i'm gonna try and um get him on my hobby horse which is the role of sporting directors and how they have become a big part of the manager's existence in football and i'm sure lots of other interesting stuff too are you gonna eat that cake oh go on then it's normally the chief

46:35Christian Purslow:executives who have their cakes and eat it but I will. Very nice. Thank you for listening. Thanks for listening.