Man City found guilty on 114 Premier League charges | The Football Boardroom

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1:04Christian, hi. I've just walked out of Spurs training ground having had a chat with Thomas Tuchel and Harry Kane and it was all headers and volleys and sport and all those issues. And then suddenly, the moment that we've been waiting for, for what, four or five years, and certainly for the duration of this pod, the judgment has dropped on Manchester City and 115. Just can you take it, get us up to date in this extraordinary event today, historic event in the history of English football?

1:39Henry:Yes, well, it's being reported that a verdict has been reached and with the famous 115, we are hearing that a verdict has found Man City guilty in, would you believe, 114 of those 115 charges. a scale and magnitude of result that I don't think anybody around the game actually expected. And of course, if held up, hugely damaging for Manchester City. And a vindication, I must say, right up front. People have been very cynical, very impatient, very frustrated with how long the judicial process has gone on for, most particularly the period after the hearing in waiting for a verdict across such a broad scale of charges and allegations.

2:35Henry:but a vindication for the Premier League and its board, its chair Alison Britton, its chief executive Richard Masters, who brought such a wide range of charges and who today will be quietly very pleased at what this reported result has ended up. CP, you've been in these boardrooms. What are they doing at Manchester City now? I assume they will appeal. they've got huge reputational damage to them as a club and to owners will heads roll what will they what will they be thinking now let's start with the legal situation and what i think is going on right now as we speak i don't know whether this started a day a week or a couple of weeks ago and i don't know whether this will rumble on now for a day or two or a week or two but very very clearly as we explained a couple of months ago, first thing for our audience to understand is this process has been to take the 115 charges one by one and rule on them.

3:41Henry:To now, there has been no ruling on potential sanctioning in the case of guilty findings. The sanctioning hearing is a separate process that will follow on from the decision, the decision we have all read about this afternoon. It is normal and it is understandable and it is definitely expected that in the case that Manchester City appeal all of these verdicts on each of the 115 charges, that the sanctioning would have to wait. In other words, we could be waiting a lot longer for ultimate justice to be applied. Such is the magnitude of this verdict, the sheer scale of the win for the Premier League across such a wide range of charges.

4:35Henry:I think there has to be a question as to whether the tribunal can come up with a process whereby the sanctioning hearing, the determination of punishment could run in parallel with the inevitable appeal by Manchester City, rather than having to wait until after an appeal, which again, for our audience benefit, let's be clear, that appeal process will take at least a year. It certainly won't be any quicker than that. So I think that's the first thing we should watch out for. What is happening right now today, and I'm picking up on your point about reputation, the parties, the Premier League, City and their lawyers will be having fierce arguments in front of these judges as to what can be said on the record today about this decision the start point is under Premier League rules any regulatory decision flowing from an FFP case is assumed and presumed to be transparent and made public.

5:42Henry:The full decision. You and I read Everton. You and I read Nottingham Forest. Line by line, how these judges have analysed each charge, the key evidential points and the rationale for their verdict on each of those points. That's the start position here. I suspect Manchester City's lawyers will be arguing, We can't publish that decision because if we do, it will prejudice our appeal. And I suspect there'll be a ferocious debate right now today on what can or cannot be published. Will we see a decision published with with redactions? Will we see no decision published or will the Premier League's lawyers and maybe the tribunal determine?

6:26Henry:No, we have a very clear start point in our rule, but this will be published. Sorry, just two things on that. First, Manchester City consistently have vigorously denied all the allegations. But secondly, on your point, how can this report be allowed to come out into the public domain? And obviously, as a journalist and as a football fan, absolutely, I want it to. But how can it possibly come out? Because surely it would prejudice the appeal. Well, that will be the argument of Manchester City's lawyers and we will see who wins that argument. My job here is to set out what I think is happening right now.

7:06Henry:That will be heavily debated. The content of disclosure and the formal press confirmation. The Premier League would be very entitled today with a legal victory of such magnitude, so comprehensive after so long. They would be very entitled, I think, to say we should stick to the principle and rule book that we can disclose in full the contents of this decision and explain how it is that this verdict has been arrived at. And but it's quite clear that Manchester City will not agree with that. And we'll be we'll be arguing that we'll see how that plays out. So can we look into the possible sanctions?

7:57I mean, we discussed this earlier on on a podcast, and it was one of the reasons, CP, that we wanted to do this podcast because we saw all the interest from fans, the concerns about issues in the game, and obviously a lot of it was sort of crystallised around this long-running Manchester City case. And I mentioned in that, I thought that financial punishments, I mean, how do you find a club as wealthy as Manchester City with their owners, with their revenue? What is no, I mean, no fine unless it was like 100 million and they've spent more than that on a player this summer. You know, what sort of punishment would it be?

8:36Personally, I said to you then that I thought at the very least it would be relegation, particularly when you compare it against some of the other cases which you've already mentioned. how do they when they come to a sanction like this how do they actually reference it can you frame it against other punishments because there's been nothing like this before certainly on of this

8:56Henry:enormity well again we should stress that we fully expect man city to appeal every one of these cases and the process norm would be for that appeal to be heard before ultimate sanctioning would be applied. But that said, and to answer your question, there really is no precedent whatsoever for a finding of, we believe, 140 guilty findings. This is not missing FFP by a million quid, which gets you four points. And if you miss it by 10 million quid, you get 10 points. This is a completely different scale and magnitude of wrongdoing and rule breaching. So I think your instincts are right. I don't think anybody could seriously entertain a sanction that didn't contain a sporting component, given clubs have received sporting sanctions for a fraction of the scale of wrongdoing.

10:08Henry:What that looks like, we shall see. But I suspect... Sorry, what is your gut feeling? I mean, you say we shall see, but come on, you've been in this game a long time. You've got one of the finest football minds in the country. Even me as a layman has suggested that it's relegation. What do you feel, CP? Well, if you want me to go out and bring back my white wig, I will. But I'm like you. I'm just a guy in the game who's been around a long time. Yes, I suspect that if we're talking sporting sanctions, we're not talking 10 points that are made up with four wins. I think we're talking at least a relegation.

10:50Henry:And as I say, City have invested hugely for many years now in the finest legal minds. When they first lost this case at UEFA, they took it to Cass and meaningfully reduced their sentencing. They are not going to lie down and accept this first decision. And they're most definitely going to lie down and accept extreme forms of sporting sanctions. But the man in the street would simply not wear a fine and neither do I believe will a sanctioning tribunal. I mean, you know, there are elements that are always going to be with them if they fail in their appeal. As you say, we expect them to appeal and, you know, to stress again, they vigorously deny all the charges.

11:42But, you know, the court of public opinion with games, we've seen it on a far lesser level with Southampton. We've seen it with one or two other clubs who have been found to be in breach of certain issues. The relentless abuse and the chance that they're going to get from opposing fans, from rival fans, whether it's on social media, whether it's on matches, that is going to stay with them. They are tainted unless they do go through the appeal. So there will be, you know, the fans will voice, there will be that matchday chorus of disapproval. will probably create a sort of seize mentality and a defiance.

12:18That's a minor thing. That's the least of their worries. That is the least of their worries. But I'm just saying that that is very much going to be there. But now we have to go into 100%. I mean, you know what football fans are like, CP. They're all absolutely, you know, you've been a club like Liverpool where their fans absolutely will point out these issues. So, I mean, look.

12:38Henry:You mentioned Liverpool. The real question is not how much, you know, beep they're going to get from fans. That's a given. We talked on this show four weeks ago about a pending case where Burnley were awarded£40 million from Everton, which followed as a logical consequence of a tribunal ruling that, in effect, Everton gaining advantage from breaching financial regulations was causal in Burnley's relegation. So you think other clubs, Premier League clubs, will come in and take this further individually? I think it is a very significant potential consequence of a comprehensive guilty verdict. Sorry, but in what form does this take?

13:27I'm trying to understand from your boardroom perspective. What would that take? Would they say, well, hang on a sec, we finish runners-up to Manchester City. if they have been accused of this, shouldn't we then, Pochettino was suggesting it with Chelsea in the Spurs situation the other day, should they be stripped of their titles? Will a club claim that? I think all of these... Or will it be financial recompense?

13:53Henry:All of these questions are now smack bang in focus following on from this verdict and following on from precedent and established in a different but not entirely different case when in effect Burnley were able to argue that those four points made all the difference and that Burnley being relegated had a direct financial cost and was caused by Everton's breach. So the list of clubs that have in effect finished either lower in the league or missed out on a European qualification or missed out on a trophy. The list of clubs is pretty long and they've all got capable legal minds. I've said on this show many times that in my time in the game, it was staggering how I never saw a lawyer at a Premier League meeting for the first 10, 12 years of my career.

14:48Henry:But by the time I left, it were lawyers that were at the meetings representing clubs. So significant have these regulatory issues become to the game. So I just think there'll be clubs dusting those arguments off right now. Yeah, I mean, we look at it from a club and from a football perspective, but just broadening it out, do you think, and because of the role and the nature and the identity of the owners of Manchester City and maybe the sensitivity in political circles, do you think there are ramifications there? So this is actually a case, if the appeal isn't upheld, assuming there is an appeal, that actually sort of jumps out into Whitehall and there's political ramifications.

15:32And I don't know that, you know, the FCO get involved. Listen, I am absolutely certain, having been in and around, you know, the case when the PIF ultimately acquired Newcastle United from

15:50Henry:Mike Ashley, it is widely accepted and understood and in the public domain that representatives of Saudi Arabia made their government's views felt that how much and how important it was to their government to be able to acquire a Premier League club. So you can be absolutely stone cold certain that for a long time now, certainly throughout this period where this verdict has been hanging, you can absolutely be certain that officials around Abu Dhabi will have been making it clear to the UK government that this case is unwelcome, that they feel they've been hard done by, that there's absolutely no guilt here and I think that those pressures will have been brought to bear.

16:38Henry:What we can say this afternoon is that our judicial system appears to have disregarded any such arguments or concerns in coming to such a comprehensive verdict in favour of the Premier League. When Everton had that breach and those points deductions, one of the very vocal defenders of the club and pointing out what he felt was the injustice of the punishment was Andy Burnham. I exchanged emails and calls with him because I was covering the story at the time. He now has a slightly more significant role in life, if there can be more significant role than being an Everton fan. He is now Prime Minister.

17:21I mean, it's just extraordinary if he has to get involved in that as well. You do think that he's going to leap out of the bounds of Premier League football and become a hot topic in Westminster?

17:34Henry:I suspect that those issues have had plenty of ventilating in the last two or three years already to Mr Burnham's predecessors in number 10. and we will now see, as I say, it's widely anticipated, I fully expect Manchester City to appeal all of these guilty findings and that will extend this process for another considerable period and during that period, if anyone seriously believes those pressures are effective, they'll continue to apply them. But I think we have to, I say, give some credit to a much criticised regulatory framework in which football operates, in which it has an established system where the league is able to bring charges against its member clubs.

18:28Henry:But from that moment, it's passed over to a completely independent judicial process. And the Premier League have been waiting, as we all have, with absolutely no clue as to how this was going to end up. But that process appears to have been allowed to take its course, take its time and ultimately come up with a verdict that has. And I do think, by the way, we should be clear. I mean, I mean, you literally rang me. I've got a one-year-old's cot in my library here. He was fast asleep because it's the coolest room in the house and I had to boot the little baby out to do this show with you. How funny is that?

19:08Henry:So I haven't been able to check with media, but this did look like a comprehensive leak. We've had no absolute confirmation from the tribunal of their decision yet. Except the journalists involved, David Ornstein, is the gold standard of news reporting. So I think we absolutely... Absolutely. CP, what are your final thoughts on this? Because for me, from my perspective as a fan and as a journalist and someone who, like you, cares about the game and the image of the game, this, as you say, is a huge win for the Premier League. It's absolutely a great win for Richard Masters, as you say, who's taken some heat over this and other issues.

19:49it does sound like we are heading into a period of civil war in a way between you know one versus 19 with clubs if they are looking at their positions we also vis-a-vis Manchester City and how they're going to react to it I think we also have to look into what the proper punishment should be for me it is it is relegation and then they uh and then they start again financial fines are absolutely pointless. You were slightly dismissive of my view of the court of public opinion, which will be absolutely relentless. I wasn't dismissive. No, no. You were broadening it out, saying it's going to be far more important.

20:29And you're right, because the more significant impact on them is going to be less words will never hurt me and more the sticks and stones of the punishment that's coming their way. But this is a huge, huge moment for English football, for fans who have been so frustrated about this. And maybe that they will actually believe more in the process and the governance of the game following this result, this huge result for the Premier League. But I know you've got to shoot off. You've got a one year old. We want to get this episode out because it's such an important issue. And I'm sure your phone's been ringing off the hook from everyone wanting your sort of esteemed sort of response to it.

21:15But what are your final thoughts on this? Where does this leave Manchester City and where does this leave English football?

21:22Henry:Look, I think you're right. I think that it's a good day for financial regulation in that a much criticised regime and process appears to have today at least achieved justice. And while we must keep stressing that as far as we know, Manchester City continue to deny all of these charges and we fully expect them to appeal all of them, the reality is that it is such a comprehensive result. Surely that will raise questions in most people's mind as to the likelihood of an appeal succeeding. The issue of sanctioning will, as I've suggested, quickly come into focus. And I wonder, I really do wonder whether the norm of that having to wait, allow the legal process to run its course for an appeal to be heard or whether they can begin the process of assessing appropriate sanction, whether that might start sooner rather than later.

22:23Henry:We shall see. I think my my my my final thought goes to goes to Man City itself. You know, this is a grand old club, loads of great people in that in that organisation. And there are a lot of people who football fans who who have appreciated Manchester City's arrival as a major football club playing the game brilliantly. one of the most esteemed coaches in history, some of the best players in the world. And I feel sorry for the football people in that football club today because the honest, I'm trying to be fair here, but my honest assessment is that a lot of their football achievements will now have that taint and question mark hanging over them.

23:18Henry:almost whatever they do next. And I think that's a really sad day for some great football people who would be a million miles away from issues around financial regulation and complying or not complying with rules. So that's my thought. We'll keep our audience across this. This is a fast-moving and seismic story, and we will dive back on if we think there's more that we need and can comment on. Thanks for getting me on the blower, H, and I'll get the baby back in his cot. Brilliant. Good luck.