Money, power & politics: Inside the world of a Premier League CEO | The Football Boardroom

26:45Henry:This is the real nub of the issue for me. I want to dig in further on this notion of Henry's point about sometimes it can be difficult with fans when, just as it's looking rosy, people leave. And if we move from managers to players, we talked in our show last week about the impact of the Jamestown analytics model. And you have been very articulate on this, Paul, publicly around the essence of your financial model depends on buying well and selling well. No club has been more honest about in the regulatory world we live in, the need to sell players for profit, not only to finance succession, but to comply with regulation.

27:33Henry:And nobody has sold better than Brighton. But I'm interested in whether, as somebody who's also worked at one of the so-called big six and also at the FA and who understands the hierarchy in football, do you think that model is more manageable at Brighton? Do you think it's easier to say to your fan base, even your coach, you know, Moyes is Caicedo and Alexis McAllister are leaving to Chelsea and Liverpool after our best ever season we're sorry but this is our model do you think it's easier at Brighton than it would be having that conversation with Unai at Villa or or with Arnie Slott at Liverpool in theory yes in practice not always because the one thing I've learned from more than 25 years working in football is that every professional footballer and coach I've worked with are hugely competitive.

28:28And therefore, any sense that we're diminishing their ability to compete is a slight. And therefore, having to sort of restate what our model is, what we've all signed up to, how we sustain the model, how we sustain the club, how we build the club for the future is a really important part of that process. And you talk about selling well, and you're right, we have to sell well, but well doesn't always necessarily mean the monetary value. It means the timing. It means who we've already got in the building before we make that sale. Because there's nothing worse in any business, but particularly in football, than making a big sale, Cacheto to Chelsea for a British record transfer fee of 115 million, and then going out to look for his replacement.

29:14When it's burning a hole in your trousers. You can't hold your pocket and everyone can see that your pockets are bulging.

29:19Henry:You do that really well. But again, from the outside looking in, I don't know this and perhaps you can tell me, it felt like that really pissed off Roberto De Zerbi. And in the end, that relationship didn't take long to end between Brighton and Roberto. Was it a factor? I think when you decide to sell good players at a time when the team is moving in the direction the coach wants, there's always going to be a degree of tension. I mean, we can't ignore that or deny that. But at the same time, it comes back again to what we've all signed up to and being transparent about how we work, what's likely to happen.

29:59Even when you're interviewing the coach on the way in? Absolutely. Is that vital? That's the most important time, I think, to make it clear that this is our model. This is how we will work. This is the squad now, but in terms of our squad planning, in two summers' time, three summers' time, four summers' time, these are the players that we might expect to sell all things being equal and all things being equals is quite an important statement in itself because it's not just about the timing being right for the player or his agent or the club that might want to buy it's about being right for us as well and you know people forget that we resisted selling Moises Crusader to Arsenal in the months before he was ultimately sold to Chelsea because it didn't suit us it might have suited Moises and his representatives and it certainly would have suited Arsenal at that time but it didn't suit us so we resisted that so it's not just about selling when the price is right it's about the circumstances for our club as well and that's the important balance that we have to get right on every single transfer window because we don't want to diminish our coaches or our players or our supporters ambitions we just simply have to manage them in a slightly different way we associate Brighton with data recruitment, with Jamestown Analytics.

31:11How do you balance the data with the sort of the all blacks, no dickheads policy? It's the most difficult part of any recruitment process, whether you're recruiting players or staff. People can, on the non-playing side, sell themselves really well in interviews, but once they come into the building, can be a very different person. You've had that. Absolutely. and on the playing side again they can be the most technically gifted player the most tactically aware player the most athletic performer that you can imagine but if you haven't got to the heart of what they're like as a character as a person then it's possible that you could still fail no matter what data that you use so we try and minimize that risk as far as we can by talking to their former teammates talking to their former coaches talking to media who might have come into contact with them over years, going back to sponsors that might have worked with them.

32:10We try and build up as big a profile of the person as we do on the data that leads us to actually seeing them as a great left back or a beautiful centre forward who's going to score lots of goals. But it's not a foolproof process, Henry, because people coming from a vastly different country into a different culture, a different dressing room, eating different food, living in a very different community or environment might not work for reasons that are not about their character. It's just about the adjustment that they've made not working. And sometimes it's not even about the player. It can be about their wife, their girlfriend, their kids.

32:50And so many of these things can impact performance, which in turn impacts the success of a particular transfer. So, so much of our work and not just us, top clubs across the world these days is about how can we actually create the best possible environment for that player to succeed off the field as well as on it. And so player care teams, the support staff that goes around, elite athletes now, is growing because I think clubs, not just us but across the Premier League and across the world, are realising that to get the best performance out of people, we've got to make those people as happy and as settled as we can as quickly as we can.

33:25You seem to have almost an on-field mentoring element. You look at Welbeck and Hinshelwood and you've got four or five players in their 30s, almost 40, I think, in James Milner, Duncan Steele. How does that balance if you've then got younger players coming in, like Hinsherwood, early 20s, and you've got like a 13-year age gap? Don't coaches want ready-made, battle-hardened players, 26, 27, 28, which is their peak? Yes, they do, but they're expensive. and you know in our model we can afford a large crop of of early 20 somethings with great potential great ability and we can also afford a smaller crop of of 30 plus players um who can help mentor them and develop them not just on the pitch but but off the pitch and around the football club as well well but there's a fantastic job at that dunk does a fantastic job gross james milner um i think James is actually twice Jack Hinterwood's age.

34:24And yet, you know, James is still performing at the highest level and just as importantly is still connecting with those young players because of what he's done, what he's achieved, how long he's stayed in the game, how he's lived his life. And those young players want to learn from players like James Milner. So for us, that blend is important, but we're also very open with the coaches about those peak players, 26, 27, 28, 29 proven winners are by definition the most expensive in the world and a club of our size with our budgets we've got a bottom six budget still for wages are going to find those players hard to come by so we have to do it a different way we have to compete in a different way we have to be a bit smarter and yeah we work very very hard at doing that we don't get everything right but we hopefully get more right than not Are you generous with bonuses?

35:17We have to be to some extent because we can't pay the base salaries that the bigger clubs play. But of course, if we're winning and we're successful, we're only too happy to share in that success with the bonuses.

35:31Henry:Let's shift gears and talk a little bit about the regulatory environment that you have to compete in. We've alluded to this. Again, one of the things that I think our audience probably don't realise is even with this model you've described being sensible on purchases and capitalizing on sales at the right time for the club at the right price. I think Tony, it's well established that Tony's in for maybe half a billion pounds into Brighton. So I think people need to understand that. You know, a club widely viewed as the best run in all respects, including financially, the owners put 500 million pounds of real money in.

36:09Henry:It's an absolutely unbelievable sum. And competition remains very difficult. where do you see financial regulation today specifically in terms of balancing this big word sustainability at the heart of a lot of the arguments for regulation stopping clubs going bust in plain english with allowing clubs to compete with the elite where do you sit on that it's a really complex map um for me on the one hand football clubs are absolutely integral to their communities and we know that they're more than just a group of players, male or female, that turn up every week to play football. They're more to the community than that.

36:52So protecting those clubs in their communities and ensuring their sustainability is vital. We all know that. The other side of it is that we want leagues to be as competitive as possible. What we can't have, and in my opinion it will be very damaging to the game, is if a small group of clubs become so wealthy, so powerful that the competition is diminished because we just simply can't get near them. No one wants to turn up and see X beat Y 7-0. It might happen once in a while and it's a great story and everyone looks at match of the day and thinks it's incredible. But if that was happening every week, and predictably so, the same team's getting the 7 and the same teams getting the no goals, then I think attendances would drop, TV audiences would drop, TV rights fees would fall, the value of the sport would start to decline.

37:45That hurts all of us. So achieving the balance between sort of financial sustainability that stops clubs disappearing from their communities, but allowing every club to spend enough in order to compete with each other, but not too much as some break away, is really difficult. And you know from your time, Christian, on the inside of both the Premier League and the EFL, it's a constant battle between clubs that are big and powerful, wanting to become bigger and more powerful and richer and therefore protect their positions as the biggest clubs in Europe, versus those of us that are aspiring to compete every week and to have a little piece of that glory, a little piece of that excitement.

38:27and the rules therefore having to be balanced to allow that to happen. It's not easy. And, you know, have we got it right right now? We'll see. You know, the latest changes are yet to bite, yet to take effect. Are you concerned about the change? I am. I'm a little bit concerned because we didn't vote for the top to bottom anchor. The ability to stop the biggest clubs becoming even bigger and even richer and even more powerful financially.

38:55Henry:We were both large exponents of this, Henry. I know it hasn't really gained much traction, but we felt very, very strongly that an overarching protection to cap the ratio between the highest spender in the league and the relationship to the lowest spender in the league would be a protection when all else fails in terms of regulation that we don't see the gap get too wide. And you voted for that, but it didn't get through. Absolutely. And the reason I still believe that that's important is because I don't think it's in the biggest club's interest for them to run away with everything either. Because by the same token, if the winning of the league, the winning of the Cups, qualifying for Europe, qualifying for the Champions League, was so predictable every year that everyone knew what was going to happen before we'd even kicked a ball, again in my opinion as a football fan that's going to impact on my desire to watch those games to watch those leagues and if i'm a tv executive and i've got an audience that is broadly knowing what's going to happen before it happens i'm not necessarily going to pay the same level of rights fees either and i think what we've got what we've created is an environment both in the premier league and the efl where actually the tv companies still love our product because it is so competitive the fact we're going into the final day on on sunday where we brighton a small club by some of the biggest club standards could still force our way into a champions league place and if we don't bournemouth could and at the same time we could even not qualify for europe if results went very badly for us and very much against a lot of jeopardy that's incredible and tottenham one of the biggest clubs in the country going into the final day you know a club that you know i grew up supporting and and still have a lot of affection for going into the final day not knowing whether whether they'll still be in the Premier League at the end of that final day, that's remarkable.

40:47And that is creating storylines, narratives, interest, excitement around the world. That's valuable. And all of us should have a responsibility and an overwhelming desire to protect that value because that's our business. That's what we've all invested in. But you can't just look at the Premier League. I mean, the game's about the pyramid. Absolutely. I mean, Christian's old club, Aston Villa last night, I was going through their players. So many of them, well a couple of them were in non-league and you know they've climbed up through the divisions as a club certainly the top two divisions but also individually as players we can't just have 20 in a 72.

41:24Totally agree with that and you know one of the things that I used to talk about so much when I worked in Major League Soccer in North America was the pyramid the value of the pyramid the excitement of the pyramid and I can remember so many times my former colleagues at MLS would ask me to talk at league meetings about relegation and promotion. And they would be fascinated by it, enthralled by it, but didn't want it because of that jeopardy. And for me, you know, working at Brighton, what I've been able to learn so much about is the value of the dream of clubs that are currently in the third or fourth tier thinking that they can replicate what we've done, what Bournemouth has done, what Brentford has done, what Crystal Palace has done and progress through those tiers.

42:08Even Manchester City, if you want to go back to sort of the time when they were in League One. And of course, their world's been transformed in a way that we know. But nevertheless, creating and sustaining the dream for the fans of some of the smallest clubs to follow a pathway to the Premier League is one of the greatest assets that we have. And that's why, again, we're very open to supporting the entire pyramid from the Premier League. So why hasn't the new deal been done? Because I think, to be honest, Henry, a combination of expectations that may be too high and a lack of understanding of what additional monies might be required and for what reason have created this impasse.

42:51And whether David Kogan and his team can help bring the two sides together to facilitate a deal quicker than we've been able to achieve, we'll see. But for me, we all are very aware of the value of the pyramid and want to protect it. But what we're more concerned about, I think, is if additional monies are going to be passed over, whatever level that might be, where will that money go? Because for us, spending more money on player salaries, more money on agents fees, isn't going to create a more sustainable pyramid or a more competitive pyramid. what we'd like to see is more money spent on facilities more money sent on stadiums more money sent on training grounds more money being invested in women and girls football more things that actually help to grow the sport and create a better environment for fans for players for coaches rather than necessarily spending more money on what we've already got

43:43Henry:i absolutely would have bet my house on and we talked a lot about this when we were working together that you and Tony in particular would know that it's about time that relationship between the EFL and the Premier League was updated. You know, the so-called cliff edge has become so extreme that to pick up on your point about competition, you've really focused at the top end of the league, the fact that anyone can beat anybody. But at the bottom end of the league, it was getting to the point and there are always exceptions and they're dangerous because they give people an excuse for the status quo but in general it has become rather predictable that we have a set of teams that yo-yo up and down and I don't think that is great for the Premier League and of course we know the EFL think it's terrible for the EFL but I would have expected you to be really banging the drum to get that new deal across the line and this leads to a tricky question but it's it relates back to our triangle point and your square point the difference between being the chief executive and the owner and I'm fascinated whether Paul, as a statesman of the game, you find it sometimes that it constrains you.

44:56Henry:You work for Brighton. You work ultimately for Tony Bloom and Tony and you may have wildly different opinions on issues that affect the game. Do you find that constraining in any way? Do you one day hope that you'll be able to just, you know, sit above that and say what you really think? Because I found it really liberating being out in the end and being a complete free agent with that, which you can't do when you're being paid. But, I mean, to be honest, one of the reasons, I guess, Tony and I have worked together for so long is very often we see things very similarly. And, you know, I've now got a small ownership stake in Brighton, much, much, much smaller than Tony's, I hasten to add.

45:38But that was, again, the reason we sort of created that structure is because we are aligned on 99 % of things. That doesn't mean to say that we don't disagree sometimes on the tactics. We don't necessarily always agree on the nuances. But largely, we're pretty well aligned. And I think when you've got a majority owner, in my case, and a minority owner, in my case, who also happens to be the guy responsible for running the club day to day, as aligned as that, it's a pretty healthy situation. Because we're comfortable in each other's company, even to disagree sometimes. And that, I think, is good for the football club.

46:12I think where you get other problems are where maybe the chief executive's ambitions maybe to support the coach on a day-to-day basis are misaligned with the owner's expectations or his ability to support or his desire to put more money in or whatever it happens to be that's when football clubs can tend to be more difficult but Tony has never ever said to me you know I don't want you talking on that particular subject or I don't want you to offer your opinion on that We've never ever had a situation in 14 years where that's occurred. Usually, as I say, because when we talk about something, we find ourselves aligned.

46:47We look at things through the same lens. And on the odd occasion that we don't, he'll sort of say, explain to me, why do you think that? Or what is your reason for thinking like that? Because he's the sort of guy that wants to understand even more. And he's not running the club day to day. So he will very often say, ah, you're much closer to it than me. I understand that now. That makes more sense. or occasionally he will say, no, actually, this is going to be our position. And he's the majority owner. He, as you say, has invested over 400 million pounds in the club. He's just committed to another 85 million pounds to build a women's stadium.

47:22If he sees it one particular way and I don't... Ultimately, money talks. Absolutely, he's the owner.

47:27Henry:Yeah. Well, I was really alluding to the fact that football's very competitive and I've been in the room and so have you with owners who at the most basic level think that writing a check for an owner in the championship who next week could be their direct rival in the Premier League makes no sense, particularly when a number of Premier League owners look down the league and see championship owners who are richer than them. I don't think you and I see the world quite that way. It is more nuanced. We do take a longer-term view. We both don't forget from where we've come, but that isn't always true with owners, and I want to see you banging that drum because I think the New Deal should have been done when we were sitting in a room together in the summer of 23 and we were one vote away from getting it done and maybe wouldn't have needed a regulator at that point and, you know, we'd have all moved on.

48:17Henry:But it feels further away than ever. Do you agree? Yes and no. I mean, I think both sides probably took a very public and determined position quite early in the process which then made it quite difficult to move. That's my personal opinion. that's not necessarily Tony's opinion or anyone else in the Premier League. But I think when you've got one party holding out for X and another party saying absolutely no way, and that's both public, then I think it becomes quite difficult because it becomes a degree of who's going to blink first in that situation. Whereas if we've been able maybe to keep all of those ambitions, targets, whatever you want to call them, far more private, dealt with things in a more conciliatory way earlier.

49:03Henry:A private and a mediated solution. Then maybe we'd have got to a solution faster. But I understand why the EFL would create a position because they're doing the best for 72-member clubs. I understand why Richard and his team at the Premier League would also take a position for its 20-member clubs. And let's also be clear that this isn't just about Premier League to Championship, Christian. As you know, this is Championship to League One. This is League One to League Two. What about the National League? What about three up, three down, and giving an opportunity for clubs in the National League to progress into the EFL.

49:35So we want to see if we're going to put more money in a much more structured and systematic answer to the question is what is the money going to be used for? But Paul, just on you, you mentioned you've got this small financial stake in there. Very small. Very small, but still it's a commitment. You also have an emotional commitment. You've been there a long time. Tottenham is your club. your dad took you there in 75 you've worked there before what they're going through at the moment obviously hurts you as a Spurs fan we've seen players come and go at Brighton managers come and go at Brighton have Spurs ever approached you?

50:18Well it's a club like you're right I went to for the first time in 75 I witnessed the relegation two years later so I was very early on sort of brought up to understand that if you support any football club let alone Tottenham, there's going to be pain as well as glory. Look, you know, for me, I love Tottenham as a fan. It's always going to be a club that I support when Tottenham's not playing Brighton. But for me, the last 14 years have sort of somehow created a connection with Brighton that is very, very hard to shake. Tony Bloom's, in my opinion, one of, if not the best owners in world football.

50:55The facilities we've got are amongst the best in world football. the staff that work for me are amongst the best in world football. And I work in a community and in an area of the country that I really, really enjoy being part of. Not just from a football point of view, but, you know, I play other sports in Brighton. I've got a lot of friends in Brighton. I enjoy the lifestyle on the South Coast. So I've been very, very fortunate that every single year I've been at Brighton, we've done something a little bit different. We progressed a little bit more. And then before I've even had a chance to think about moving on, Tony said, oh, and by the way it would be great if we could build a women's stadium what do you think um and therefore there's another project now uh that's going to keep me to the end of my contract in 2030 and so you won't move before 2030 my contract is until 2030 and so you know the women's stadium is we're planning to open in 2030 at that point i've agreed with tony that we can re-evaluate where where we are both in terms of the the club uh my life his life uh what his ambitions are uh what mine are and uh we'll see where we are.

51:58But that emotional pull? To Tottenham? It's always there, but at the same time, you know, lots of things, you know, lots of things have to be right and timings have to be right. And at the moment, my total focus is on Brighton Hove Albion, achieving what we call our vision 2030, which is a big part of that, is building the women's stadium. And, you know, honouring my contract to Tony because he's been very, very good to me and my family. We've worked together now. This will be the 15th year. There aren't many partnerships in football that go back that far. And as Christian knows, I'm probably now one of the oldest and longest serving chief executives around the Premier League table.

52:33And I feel that I owe it to Tony to honour my contract insofar as I possibly can and also insofar as he wants me to. I've seen you on England trips. You obviously worked with the FA very successfully in the early 2000s. Would there ever be a pull to go back there? I would say after Brighton and Tottenham, the FA is my other sort of love, if you like. I love what the organization stands for. I played grassroots football, coached grassroots football, did my refereeing badges, my coaching badges. And I just love the English game. And the FA for me is the embodiment of the English game at every level.

53:13Who knows, at some point in the future, a return there in some capacity would be amazing. I've really enjoyed serving on the FA Council. I never thought I would say that when, as you know, when you and I used to meet regularly in my job at the FA as Director of Communications and Marketing the FA Council at times were quite difficult for me Just one quick question on England because we've got Thomas Tuchel announcing his squad on Friday tomorrow. First should Danny Welbeck be in it and secondly what did you think as someone who obviously was there during the Sven period and slightly pre-Sven period about handing a manager a contract extension before he'd actually delivered at a tournament Well first of all Danny has been amazing for us.

53:56He's still an incredibly fit, able, competent athlete who's on the top of his game. He's also a fantastic character. And you and I both know from being away with England at tournaments, characters are really important during tournaments. It's not just about the best players. It's about the people around that camp that will keep that camp focused and ready to play at all times because they're good people. And Danny's definitely one of those. And in Thomas's case, you know I've been lucky enough to meet Thomas many times I think he's an incredibly good coach I think he's done a great job with England I think he conducts himself really well and so I certainly had no problem in the FA extending his contract because I think he's one of the top coaches in the world and why wouldn't our national team want that I understand in an ideal world you'd love that coach to be English Gareth did a fantastic job was English we took a decision at the time Gareth wanted to step down that the best coach available to us wasn't English we did that back in 2001 as well and you know why not we have to get the best person for the job

55:00Henry:well let's hope he vindicates that decision with bringing it home and it's been absolutely brilliant having you on Paul I wish you all the best for Sunday it is staggering what the range of outcomes are from one day of football but it looks pretty good for Europe and you never know it may even be the Champions League and we wish you all the best and that's all for today folks see you next time