Sean Dyche | The Football Boardroom

16:26Christian:ridiculous

16:27Henry:ridiculous but by the way there is a very simple answer to your question and it's a beautiful segue to where i want to go which is to answer henry's question how much money did you put into i'll tell you the answer the answer is what did mike garley get paid for selling the club on the back of five and a half years in the premier league answer 150 million quid was the room of takeover value so that in my world yeah it was more than that okay but in my world that is literally value created oh i see what you mean yeah did he thank you i think we did

16:56Christian:did he sort of oh he didn't thank me in a way that you're thinking but you weren't in on the equity oh these guys honestly if he was a ghost he wouldn't say Bucci is that tight but he was very rewarding to me so I will say that but not in that way not when we sold the club there was no gain for me when they sold the club I didn't get personal gain the board members did and rightly so by the way because they backed the club good people

17:18Henry:yeah but my point Sean is the new generation of owners let's do that so you're actually the guy who bought the club in December 20, Alan Pace, is the new breed of owner. There are many of them now in English football. He is at heart a financier. He has a very strong career in Wall Street. He's a private equity investor, very much like the owners at Chelsea, for example. Yes, he's got some US sports experience. That seems to be a common pattern, a common profile. They're finance guys. They understand how to create wealth and they've had a bit of time in US sport and want to see if they can apply that knowledge in British football.

17:56Henry:Now, those guys understand more than any people on the planet that management teams make their investments more valuable. And it'd be completely normal in their businesses for the CEO or the manager making the value to be rewarded with equity. And I would look back and say, you created£150 million football club.

18:18Christian:Yeah, I mean, that was probably something that would have... I think Mike Garlick particularly, because he did... The reason I mention Rocks, I did my deals really me and him. Yeah. And I think, actually, he would have probably gone for that because I'd done enough at the club. He would have probably given me a bit if I would have asked for it. But he did reward me really well, so there's no gripe for me about that. Yeah, you got paid. We say you got paid off the top

18:36Henry:through your bonus culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

18:37Christian:So there was no gripe for me. And I didn't... I mean, it would have been nice if you got a bit at the club and that deal, but I didn't really need it for one. I didn't really want it. I was pretty much heart was in the club, the good of the club, really. And they all were. Did it change? I mean, what did change when the new owners came out? Well, what changed business-wise was the forefront of going from an earthy, stable, community-based thinking club to this kind of Americanised model of, you know, social media everywhere, you know, pushing that, wanting to do documentaries, which they did do, of course, and all that.

19:17Christian:And I was like, in my opinion, and I'm sure Alan wouldn't mind telling you, because there's no other angles than I always tell them the truth. I said, you need to slow down. I said, this is, there's people been working in this club a long time. There's a fabric that holds this club and the community together. So for me, it'd be small steps and then, you know, leak it. But they wanted to, you know, do the, I suppose the stereotypical American thing in life, not just in sport, in my opinion of my life, knowing American people as I have done for many years. It's everything now, you know, no, no, let's push, let's push, let's push, let's be dynamic and everything.

19:49Christian:And you go, yeah, that's fine. but it's just not that type of club or that part of the country you know what I mean it needs to be sort of softly softly and brought in steadily but they wanted to really run with it at first it was like look we're happy what you're doing we want to continue they signed me on a new contract and stuff like that very much rewarded me they started pulling pieces pulling it out the bit of the jigsaw they started going oh we're going to change this and you know you had a football director who used to be a lawyer and you suddenly go with all due respect you're going how's that going to work then you know what I mean and it was just putting nine people into these positions and I thought, I'm not anti it, but I go, you've got to, you have a skill set, you've got to know, do you know what I mean?

20:27Christian:I started going, hang on a minute, so I'd have meetings in the end and it was like, you know, as I'd always say, you know, the American guys all came in, good people by the way, nothing wrong with that, but it was a business, they go, they kept saying, I remember Alan, he goes, I hear you and I go, you hear me, but you're not listening at all. You know, I said, I've known you a while now and I'm telling you, you're taking bits out of this which don't need taken out and overseeing things. Why haven't we got a report on this? Why haven't we got a report on that? I go, just talk to me. Do you know what I mean?

20:54Christian:I said, because I've had my hands over this for nine years. You know, I know the warts and all. We constructed it.

21:00Henry:Did you sense it was going to come to an end when it did? Oh, yeah.

21:03Christian:Oh, long before it did. Long before. Well, I knew. I thought, I can't work like this. And they probably thought, we can't work with this guy. Do you know what I mean? Okay, fair enough. Yeah, so there was no drama. I mean, I remember to this day, I've been all right, you know, when I've been sacked, I've been all right with people because it's a business. They're not nasty people. You know, it's a business. They make decisions. The only bit I couldn't to this day, I can't understand, was it cost them a lot of money to get rid of me and they put a team of novice erdlers in. And I went, so you've got eight games to go.

21:30Christian:You're not in massive trouble, but not in massive trouble, certainly not insurmountable. I've been down that road many times. And they allowed, you know, like Ben Mead to take over with, like Jacko is a great fellow, by the way. You know what I mean? And you just go like, how does that make sense you know if they would have put Sam Allardyce in right or you know what I mean I would have went fair play and I would have said Sam get on with what you're capable of

21:55Henry:that's a very good segue to the next big chapter in your career which where I guess you were in that sense rather like the way Sam used to get parachuted in I'm talking Everton after an incredible period really of instability at that football club managerial change financial crises. You land at Everton, I think, in January 23. Is that right? Yeah. And the team are two points from safety. A person near and dear to me, Bill Kemwright, I think played quite an important role in getting you in, Sean, didn't he?

22:33Christian:Yeah, he'd, well, you know, from behind the scenes, he'd wanted me in there for a number of years.

22:37Henry:He had, he had.

22:39Christian:But that was another myth, though, because they made out that I'd turned it down or they'd turned me down. They hadn't. it had never been offered to me I'd never spoken to him but I knew that Bill was a big fan of mine actually it's funny because I remember another thing with you being in the media particularly is when he first picked up on me was because I did an interview at Burnley and he watched the interview it was on Football Focus I think and basically one of my lines I said the thing that's going to be the trouble of the future in football is going to be keyboard warriors and he picked up on it and I said that's what we've got to be careful of and he picked up on it and he said I never forgot it That was like five years before I ended up being the manager.

23:15Christian:And he said, it just always stuck in my head, your viewpoint of what was likely to become the norm now. And so he'd always been a fan. I knew that under the radar and made that clear to agents and people. And even Mike Garland used to say to me, he said, oh, Bill's a big fan of yours, you know what I mean? But I never, against popular, another myth that I'd been interviewed, I hadn't. It was only at the time.

23:37Henry:One of the reasons for that was that behind the scenes, obviously having sold the club Bill made, what, you know, literally, God rest his soul, I think it was a terrible mistake where he sold the club but kind of stayed, to some extent, involved. He was certainly seen to be involved. He's the oldest school. He was the most... I mean, he literally had blue blood. He was the most passionate chairman fan I think I ran into in all my time in the game. But yes, he just wasn't influential. He was the worst possible combination of visible but not really influential for quite a long time. And they went through a few managers, as you know, some deeply unpopular with the fans, of course.

24:19Henry:But I think after it just didn't work, finally, I think Mr Mashiri listened to Bill and got you in. And you kept them up, final day of the season. That Bournemouth game. Oh, my God.

24:30Sean Dyche:I mean, that was just mad. I mean, I remember when the fans were celebrating and they were singing, sat the board and obviously celebrating, staying up and you walked into that press room there that tiny press room and sat down and said this club can't go through this again we have to achieve more and I think you'd actually had a word with the players and saying listen yeah I had

24:49Christian:yeah because because I just a turgid week that you know we were down to brass tucks with injuries everywhere we had players some who were nameless who didn't want to play almost really? oh goodness me so we're piecing together we changed for about five that's cowardice oh goodness me I can't really end stories in football we changed to back five sorry that is everything that you don't stand for well we've got more stories than that trust me so we had to change to back five we've got Dwight McNeil playing left wing we've got Jimmy Garner fantastic them two getting on with it and we we we we we had no centre forward that season Damari Gray played up front we had nothing nothing else he was injured doing well and all that sort of stuff and we pulled out for 1-0.

25:37Christian:Decore was amazing for me from day one that I got in there. Frank had fell out of him and no doubt, you know, I spoke to Frank since I got well. Frank doing brilliant, of course, at commentary currently. And it's just a clash of people and personalities but I got him straight back in, loved him immediately. He played, if he's fit, he's playing for me and he was terrific and he scored a worldie on that day. He did. I must say, you know, a real positive that Everton fans I think will agree with, I've never heard a louder statement than that ever in my career and I've been in football all my life.

26:05Christian:it's the lap the noise of that moment was incredible and the final whistle the two things I'll never take away from my career and that is them two moments it was unbelievable the power of the sheer volume it was like shaking you you know what I mean I can feel it now it was incredible but what a terrible week to go through you know to know that a club without history is on your shoulders as manager you can't go out and tell the truth of what's going on you know because it undermines the team at Endermonzer Club at Endermonzer Assets I've got to sell some of these players you know because I've been told that there aren't going to be electric going in here unless we sell these players so we've got to stay up you've got to sell the players at that time you've got to play the beautiful game you know me and I say why aren't you doing this why aren't you doing that and you've got no voice you've got no voice internally as a manager going you know it's like the silent scream you know what I mean it's like that famous painting you know the silent scream it's like that you just think can anyone see Edvard Munch Can anyone see what the truth of this story is?

27:07Henry:I mean, from a boardroom perspective, business perspective, and I was looking at this yesterday, Sean, I don't think a modern manager in the Premier League era has had to cope even closely as much as you did with off-field difficulties. It was incredibly difficult. You're literally talking about after the Russia-Ukraine war kicked off and Usmanov was sanctioned, that relationship between Usmanov and Moshiri to this day a thing of mystery, but actions speak louder than words. A£30 million sponsorship deal had to be pulled immediately. The club's in a financial meltdown. That's what triggered two things.

27:48Henry:A lack of capital, as you say, struggling to pay the electricity bills and the imminent and obvious day of reckoning on financial fair play. Because if you pull out£30 million of revenues and all your player contracts...

28:01Christian:I got told by the way that was all going to be fine.

28:03Henry:Yeah, I'm sure you did. When I was interviewed, I was like,

28:07Christian:what happened to it was all going to be fine?

28:09Henry:Exactly.

28:10Christian:I was like, great news.

28:11Henry:Yeah, well, to us, you know, to rival club, you know, directors and co, it was obvious. It was just a question of when. So you had that going on. Obviously, Machiri had to sell the football club. You had the whole drama that nearly the whole of the next season, 777 had agreed to buy the club. Oh, there was all sorts.

28:28Sean Dyche:We called them 999.

28:31Christian:Well, there was all sorts going on. I mean, every press conference was like a war zone because the media was thirsty for more trouble. And your rivals were piling on trying to get you.

28:45Henry:I think thirsty is a bit harsh on us.

28:47Sean Dyche:I think there was huge sympathy with what you were going through

28:52Christian:in terms of... Views, I'm not going to go on about the media here because, you know, my feelings are... Not the keyboard warriors, but... No, but the view's not news now. Everyone sells views. It used to be, to be fair, and I'm not just saying it to you here, you'll write what your belief is in anything, right? That's why you're a top writer, because you listen, you observe, Yeah, but I'll stick up for the Mersey.

29:11Sean Dyche:The Mersey reporters, who the Andy Hunters, the Paul Joyces, the Chris Bascoms, people like that, I think they care about the club. That's a separate issue, but I...

29:19Christian:No, I was thinking more... There was a lot of support for you, I think. No, I was thinking more the greater world of media. I wasn't actually thinking specifically... Well, not just that, but I was asking... they were that enthralled by sort of like let's bring more drama to it all I mean I was answering to I mean once this does annoy me about the media by the way I'm going off piece a little bit but it's important to get out there about myself was for example I'm sitting in a press conference and they're piling on because we're the team are not winning but no one's thinking about what you're talking about as a business that's all gone by the way and it's all there right in front of everyone's eyes but it's like why aren't you doing this why aren't you doing that and that's the least of my worries I'm thinking They were going, why aren't we playing this way?

30:00Christian:Why aren't we doing that? Why aren't they playing better? In my head, I'm going, don't even worry about that. This club's got way more going on than just what you're thinking. So when you answer to something like this, so somebody in the media goes, can we ask you a question? And I go, right, as soon as I say that, I go, so this is obviously off the internet. Is it true that you slapped Dominic Calvert-Lewin, right? And I started laughing and went, really? Are we really going down that road? headlined Deitch denies slapping Calvert-Lewin and that's when I go right enough now oh come on this is a complete nonsense and that's why I think the media now are going unfortunately it's getting worse anger selling anger as I call it just selling it

30:42Henry:and I just couldn't believe it

30:44Christian:and your point back to your point that was much more important to me all this I'm having to answer this utter nonsense utter woke nonsense utter woke nonsense of course you never actually said that did you just to clarify that you should have copyrighted it I've got a company called utter nonsense have you? utter nonsense so anyway right so back to your point and I totally agree there's so much going on behind all this silly minutiae stuff I'm having to deal with and honestly in my head I'm going don't worry about all this but I have to answer to it I'm thinking can we sell so and so can we sell how can we get the wage bill lower can we get the best of them got players who you know their agenda is not my agenda or the club's agenda you know I'll pull in the old you know the old life jacket and I'm going yeah really what you you think the fans think that you care because you're pulling the old life jacket on and I'm going come on you know when they score you know the old I'm going come on do you know what I mean I'm going really

31:37Henry:we have to land this point that that to cope with you know a completely failed takeover that's that's in the backdrop for the entire season what ended up being initially 10 but ended up being net 8 points deduction you finish 15th despite that that would have been 12th without the points deduction. Don't think you were able to bring a single player in. You're forced to sell some of your best players. I think that's a fantastic achievement.

32:03Christian:Yeah, I mean, well, I said that. So when I came out there, if you remember, in my statement, I said, I see this as a fantastic period. And in the interviews, I say I'm incredibly proud of what we all did, by the way, not me, but I had to add it up. But do you know what the link is? Across the end to this day, we did a brilliant job. But do you know what's interesting to me

32:20Henry:is that the comparison between Burnley and Everton in your shoes, and I'm saying this as, you know, a businessman who's bought and sold businesses my whole career, who understands that world like you understand football, okay? I am telling you to your face that Burnley could never have been sold by Mike Garlick to Alan Pace without what you did in those five and a half years of making it, quote, an established Premier League club, okay? Well done. He owes you a beer. Turn the clock forward, Everton. He owes you a brewery. I'd have to buy it. Let me tell you, Everton, you come through a season, so you kept them up first time around, fine, that is what people expect Sean Dyche to do.

33:01Henry:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You did it. You then go through a season that I've described graphically as I think the most challenging off-field set of circumstances I've seen in my entire football career as what you were dealing with. You come through it very comfortably, 15th that could have been 12th, and lo and behold, the 7-7-7 deal that we all know is going to fall over, falls over, but then the Freakins arrive and very soon after that they announce their takeover I think in September and by Christmas that deal completes I think it completes literally the 20th of December okay so you're in your second full season and within a matter of days on the day of a cup tie you're bombed out by Freakin

33:42Christian:yeah it wasn't quite like that because and I will back this because I think this is fair and I always try and be fair and really as honest as I can be that's what it looked like from the outside and I thought it was incredibly unfair. Yeah, that bit's fair. So what had happened was, the demise was coming, right, and I knew we needed new blood and we couldn't get anything done. It was going into January. We played at Bournemouth away. And as a football man, because of my years in the game, my instinct, if you like, I ran Kev Thalwell. We played at Bournemouth. We were awful. And the players were dying, right?

34:16Christian:The weight of Everton had come back. So during that period, the fans were incredible. but the fan expectation is really high and the period of togetherness was waning a bit it'd gone back to that kind of why aren't we doing this why aren't you playing them you know every player at the club you say the best players are always on the bench you know in the fans view why aren't you playing them why aren't you playing this why aren't you playing this why aren't you doing that and that had started to grow again now the weight of Everton not for me as a manager I can take the hard knocks I've proved that for many years the players were suffering I could sense it so I spoke to the club to be fair to them, well, to Kev Thalwell, and I had an honest chat with him, and I said, look, I can smell this changing.

34:55Christian:I'm not doing two years of graft here for this to go the wrong way. I said, no chance. So we're leaving this in good shape. If you remember, they're outside of the bottom zone. The team are in good shape physically. They all look, you know, there wasn't a lack. You know when they go, I mean, it's driving me mad lately, which I'm sure we're going to do with the first thing, you know, he's lost the dressing room. It's a load of nonsense, you know what I mean? You can tell. I hadn't lost the dressing room. they'd lost the edge that it was that we had during that period of 10 points deductions and all that that edge that brought everyone together including the players and the fans that was very obvious yeah everyone went bang and I had no BS from me I sat there going back to that point I sat there as soon as that happened I said right here's the league table before here it is now no excuses that's it lads right there that's the challenge and I went are we all on board and they went yeah that's how simple we kept it when that happened rather than big dramas and all that.

35:47Christian:So anyway, fast forwarding, I just knew it. I said to the staff, I can see it in these lads' eyes. The weight of Everton's got too powerful and they need it to lift and the only way of lifting it is the manager goes. And I actually said to him, in my opinion, bring Moisey in, if he'll do it. So Moisey brings me a few days later when I'm sorting things out. I hadn't done the deal or I'd just done the deal, I think, to go. Sorry, you were still there? No, no. I advised the club I would go for Moisey. When I'd done the deal to go, with the club, you know, contracts and all that, everything was agreed.

36:20Christian:Moise rang me and said, look, I believe you told them they should ring me. They've rang me. What do you think? And I said, I told him exactly what happened. And to be fair to Moise, because I got home with him and he's a good bloke, proper thorough, old school thinking, clear-minded bloke. He goes out in his first thing, he said, no, I suppose, Sean, everything he said was right. Players are in good, because in my leaving stone, I said, the club and the players are in really good shape. I got battered for that. You know, fans going to, you know, keyboard. I was going, what's he talking about? We're in good shape.

36:45Christian:Moisey went straight and they went no he's right so there's no problems there everything was left in very good order the staff knew what they were doing the training ground knew what it was doing everyone knew how many other managers would have done what you did yeah but I'm not trying to be I'm just trying to be me right because I know even people who are watching this they'll be saying oh look at him trying to be you know I don't know rewarding himself for his work but I'm just being honest it's the hardest thing now you tell people the truth they spin the truth into a non-truth and somehow make it you're thinking you're mystic meg you know i mean i'm going no i could just see what i thought was going to happen and i did not want that to happen we've done too much work there was too many good people in the background of everton who didn't deserve for this club to start going backwards

37:28Henry:to where it was when i took over okay i sit here um and i'm saying to myself what are we now we're We're early March. You had 114 days at Nottingham Forest, Sean. We did a show a few weeks ago about imagining we're in the Man U boardroom with Jim Radcliffe trying to shine a light. On my experience, Henry's experience of what sort of criteria an owner, a chief exec will apply in different circumstances for managerial change. And I literally looked at those notes last night and I thought, you were the absolute standout candidate for Nottingham Forest. You ticked every box we said were key. Fit, context, track record, cultural connection, know the DNA, available without huge pay, you know, just perfect.

38:22Henry:Live in the area. And I don't understand, I honestly don't understand why you're still not there.

38:28Christian:Well, I don't statistically and factually. No emotion to it. If you look at the stats and facts, even after the last game against Wolves our current form at that time was 9th in the Premier League and talk about current form, look at their form they then had the 2-2 with Arsenal and they beat Liverpool

38:47Henry:that was a very simplistic analysis, that draw with Wolves they're decent now, aren't they?

38:53Christian:very odd situation, 35 of us got I think it's only the second time that's ever happened in Premier League history not won the game or something like that so the stats and facts were there, clear as day from my record from when we got there to when we ended we'd have been 12th in the Premier League so on factual data and analysis I can't understand any of the decisions that were made but the way football's changing is this and this is we witnessed it so we're all ex-Nighton Forest people one degree or another obviously Woney and Stoney being the main ones Woney had 10 years and Stoney was sold for millions and you know good people in a football club Billy Mercer had even been on loan there the goalie coach Tony Loughlin had made his debut there and scored for you.

39:35Christian:All of us had links to Nightingale Forest. So when we got in there, forgetting about whether you're a football genius or not, people who care. And I made that really clear. So I got offered the job, told Mr. Maranacis the absolute truth of where I saw it. The truth of what I thought the club is. And what were the goalposts?

39:48Henry:Keep us up or do better than that?

39:50Christian:Of course, can we fight on two levels, you know? And the thing is with football now, and this is what I was going to go on to, the bigger picture of this is of football. It's like, how can I describe it? it's like selling chocolate teapots now. You know, people just, they come out with these stories about, we're this club, and you go, no, you're not. You've had one good season in 30-odd. You know, trying to remind the fan base, this is where the keyboard warriors get really powerful, by the way, trying to remind the fan base of the truth of what it is rather than what you think it is. It's very difficult now.

40:22Christian:Very, we had a period at Everton going back to when we did that, but then it soon drifted into this, why aren't we doing this and why aren't we doing that? and the reality went very quickly. But you've got to remember, the reason bringing Everton up and linking it to Forrest is, you've got to remember, there's only 10 % of this is what you imagine. There's 90%. So I'm living in the area of Everton, for example, people coming up to me, the real tough is, they'll be going, we think you're doing brilliant. But the 10 % spread the anger and the hate and all that and that's just the way life is now.

40:52Christian:10, 15 % a keynote. And then the media start, mass media, not the local media, start selling what they think. it's like if you're selling anything right you're going to sell what people want and they want that nonsense they want clicks you know see how many clicks i can get so but the fans were not a problem at forest for you were they no no but that's my point but there's a 10 isn't there of people i'm saying who they they start they sell anger now but why would the board listen to that what i'm saying is the fans well because that's a different ballgame that's up to them um but the fan the fan base underneath all that were well aware you know i live in the area people going look and in the summer don't forget and I said this in many interviews but trying to rebalance football now is very difficult because everyone wants more more more so for example I live in the area during the summer I was seeing people because of the brilliant season they had last season which was brilliant but it was weighing at the end of the season by the way he got 8 points in the last 9 games or something so it was already weighing he didn't win a game pre-season didn't win a game at the beginning of last season it was 1-1 but there was a lot of politics in that Sean as well wasn't there well that's a different thing but you still got to win games but the fans I was saying before I even went in there.

41:56Christian:Longworth Rising linked to 9-5. I was saying to him, trust me, it's going to be really difficult next season. But the myth that Forrester regathered pace, you know. They spent a lot.

42:04Sean Dyche:They spent a lot last time. 160 odd million.

42:06Christian:Yeah, but look at who they bought though.

42:08Sean Dyche:Yeah.

42:08Christian:Who's your stalwarts? You tell me a stalwart Well, it's interesting. That last game,

42:11Sean Dyche:only two of the players from that investment actually started.

42:16Christian:Yeah, so, you know, what are you signing and what do they mean? Now, I believe there's some good players there and they'll become better players. But everyone thinks you can sign something because they cost money and that's it they're a Premier League footballer they're not it takes time time is a commodity you have not got the currency of life is not time anymore it's not patience it's now now now so you're going to Forest it starts off with this really good spirit of all Forest people who care and there's no two ways about it we do and we still do there's no way I want drama and the first 10 games

42:44Henry:went well I can assure you I didn't want Burnley

42:47Christian:to go down and they did I didn't want that just to be clear all that nine and a half years of my life given to Burnley why would I want them to fail Ridiculous. People thought I did. Ridiculous. Never. Everton, no chance. I did the right thing there and it's flourished ever since. Good decision from me. Fact. Forrest, no chance I want them to hit the skids. No chance. Even now. Not an angry bone in my body. It's just reality as I call it. This is reality. Honestly, this is reality. Modern reality. Win, yes, brilliant. I mean, you know the myths coming out there, football last season was brilliant.

43:22Christian:We all know the football at Forrest last season. and I was a big fan of it, but it wasn't brilliant. They were winning. That's the difference. When you have such managerial churn... You've got these myths that you've got to... You're trying to calm this all down. Yeah, but I'm sure what I'm not clear is,

43:35Henry:what was the... Why are you not there?

43:38Christian:Well, that's the decision, isn't it? That's where players get involved, speaking to their ownerships, and ownership listens to players, and players... I mean... That's wrong, isn't it? I'll tell you, oh, but this is life in football now. It's changing. But that undermines the manager, isn't it? Right, let me ask you this, because you're in the media, right? And I'm really intrigued. you've been in football on the inside and you're in the media, right? And bloody good at it. Let me ask you this. Imagine this to a modern fan reading this. And this is a lot that was coming out. The players are tired because they're working them too hard.

44:06Christian:Since when has that become a currency that is almost like, oh, what are they doing working footballers too hard? If you'd have written that 10 years ago, people have gone, every fan would have gone, what are they talking about working? They should be in there every minute of every day, blah, blah. Now, I mean, I couldn't believe it, honestly. Oh, he's working the players too hard. I'm like, when did that become a bad thing? It was literally a negative thing. Were the players saying that? No, the media were saying that. I know the media were saying that. Where are they getting it from? Well, maybe so.

44:35Christian:And I'm scratching my head. Me and my staff are going, well, we've got all the data, the stats and facts. I've been doing this a long time. Every bit of data we've got, from training, schedules, everything. Premier League stats, where the team are at, lowest physical performing team in the Premier League when we took over. So what do you want them to do then? Not get them fitter. I mean, it's just madness, right? This is facts, by the way. This is facts.

44:55Sean Dyche:But sorry, did any of the players say that to you, that you're working us too hard?

44:58Christian:Yeah, of course. They did? Yeah, honestly, I could tell you, but this is not just football. This is not just Nightingale Forest. I was with Thomas Frank the other day, and, you know, good people, Gareth, who I get on brilliantly with. And, you know, all of us, we've had all these myths about everything. But the bit I'm trying to get to, this is where I was saying about the 10 % of football life now, keyboard warriors, media, whatever you want to call it, That for me is a coupon buster. Whether players were working too hard, I've never heard that as being a negative ever in my life. I cannot find out.

45:28Christian:What we're asking the players to work hard for a football team to wear the badge with a bit of pride. I'm going, come on.

45:33Henry:Saying it to your face, you know, knocking on your door, maybe the leadership group, maybe the skipper, maybe a particular player, knocking a boss, I'm absolutely knackered, working me too hard, whatever. You're old school. I think you probably set him right, but that's okay. but whining to an agent who tells a journalist who feeds it out into the 10 % that's different is that what we're talking about

45:55Christian:that's modern football that's agents to get on with the press favours for favours from agents not all but there's some good agents by just to be clear I know you know that there are some very good agents so that I'm clear but there's some that are not so good and they just protect the player without realising you're actually damaging everything around them including them because we all know by the way as you know as managers the Wolves talk I know the brothers and riders in all of my career and I certainly know the ones at Forest. But they'll get wheedled out because life's like that. You know, they will get found out.

46:23Christian:And I need to make this clear. This is really important to me as a football person and as a person. Mr. Maranakis was nothing but good to me and straight. His final decision is a strange one. But as a bloke, with me, personally, I've got no gripes at all. So have the players... Nemo is sudden meal toss, all the powers that be, no gripes at all. So have the players

46:41Sean Dyche:let Maranakis down?

46:43Christian:That's for you to put together. Sorry, you're the one

46:46Sean Dyche:who's in the middle of it.

46:47Christian:Yeah, but I'm not going to get involved in all that because I'm not on this show to where you go to talk about it. But the key changing manager,

46:51Sean Dyche:at some point you've got to look at the players.

46:54Christian:Yeah, but that's up to him. That's up to the ownership. That's up to their model. Models change at different football clubs. Some models are still the manager is the manager. That's it.

47:03Henry:Okay, this is key stuff. Some are not. No, no.

47:07Christian:But the reason why I'm not going to get involved in it too much is this. I still care about what that job is and I still care about that football club. I do not want anything but good on that. even to this moment as I sit in now and I've just been sacked. I don't want anything that's good for the ownership. I don't want anything that's good for the new manager, the players. Let me make that clear. It is a bit of a head scratcher that I'm sitting here talking about this. That's the bit I will say because the stats and facts are very clear. But what I'm trying to say is that the pressure on football clubs now, going back to ownership, models, finance, is enormous from, believe it or not, people do listen to people sitting on a computer it could be someone who's got day release from a you know an institution and they're they're ringing in that thing is and i'm serious and owners and owners and chief execs and players i use that means with the players all the time right and this is every player this is not forest this is all playing groups i've dealt with it's your choice to use social media and i'm not anti-social media just to be clear it's another myth of mine i'm not against social media at all but use it wisely and remember who's writing on it because with all due respect, right, and I swear I say this to fans when I meet them and they start grilling you or giving you a bit and I go, what do you do?

48:20Christian:And they go, I'm a plumber and I go, well, I wouldn't ask you to pull, you know, plumber in boiler room, would I? I wouldn't tell you what to do, would I? So why do you think you can tell me what to do about football management when I've been here all my life? That's the thing in football and media. So I just say to the players, just be careful because then people you think, I mean, you're brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. it might be an IT consultant why do you listen to them but you won't listen to me as manager and that's how life's getting in football it's very peculiar but players will listen to their agent and you know their cousin and their whatever and someone on social media they'll listen to it and believe it and you just go like I don't know how this works I really don't I find it unfathomable

49:01Sean Dyche:is this a general issue that players are looking at the manager rather than themselves?

49:09Christian:I think it's got... It's not all, by the way. That's the other thing. You've got to remember, it's similar to my rule of thumb about the media. You're looking at 10 % or 15 % which are selling this hate thing. This is not a myth, by the way, because I've been doing this a long time. I know you're in it. But I'm telling you it's changed. In the eight months I was out from Everton to going to Forest, I'm telling you it changed. It's selling hate now, massively. Well, we're quite an angry society, which reflects that. Yeah, probably is, by the way. Yeah, I agree. I'm not into politics massively. but yes, I think there's an underbelly of the country who's not happy.

49:39Christian:Simple as that. That goes into football stadiums, it always has done. But the 10%, 15 % is similar with players. You've got some brilliant players out there, great pros, it's still nil. But the 15 % or so, you know, you're going, oh, when you're pulling your arrow, you know, their one and first for excuse now is insurmountable. I've never seen it as high as, it's not my fault, it's your fault, you know, about everything. And I've never seen it as powerful. I mean, it's ironic now when these players now brought through these incredible academy systems, taught everything they need to know. They know tactical, they know stats.

50:13Christian:And yet, on a Saturday, if you lose, well, you didn't tell me what to do. And you go, really? So you've had a lifetime through an academy system and you're telling me that you don't know how to press someone. So you want me to show you now how to press someone, and yet you're you. You know, and these are key players, and I'm going, right. But last week, when we won 3-0, you did know how to press that someone the excuse levelling football has gone through the roof have you had enough of it? I will question my next move definitely I went back into Forest I was already questioning it I went back into Forest because I had a gut feeling about doing the right thing for a club that is you know I care about I'm sorry unfinished business

50:54Sean Dyche:in a way that emotional pull

50:57Christian:I'm not like that football's never defined me as a person Absolutely not. I think you're a perfect fit. I might do it on the outside looking in, but it doesn't define me inside. I know what I am. So I could branch off this minute now and do what you're doing now and be quite happy. You know, I've done my bit. So if I do more, great. If I don't do more, I won't be crying over it. I won't be, you know, yeah, but you're left with this moment or that moment. Okay, dear, not bothered by that. I've given my lot. I always do. So I've got no problem with that. So if I choose to step away, it will be my choice.

51:28Christian:It won't be because no one will employ me. I could serve I'd offers already by the way so that's not a problem good level yeah yeah top level but the point is you go do I need that do I want to make a decision not at the moment

51:41Henry:Sean it's been an absolute pleasure having you on fascinating insight and I wish you all the best I'll tell you one thing keep your phone on in sort of second week of October because when a club gets in trouble in the new Premier League season I promise you you're the guy we'll get you out of a festival yeah thank you So to our audience, thank you very much for your attention. As always, you by now have figured out you can find us in all the places you get your pods. Please subscribe. Give us your rating. Maybe send us a question. Next week, we're actually going to take some time and answer some of the many questions you've already sent Henry and I.

52:16Henry:But in the meantime, thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

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