Spurs land De Zerbi | The Football Boardroom

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0:54Why Di Zerbi? What do we think the money looks like? What do we think about clauses in the contract? and most importantly, is he the man to take the club forward after such a tricky season? We hope you like the show.

1:11Christian, good to see you. Well, it's another Tottenham Day. I mean, the last time we spoke about Tottenham, you were very, very clear that it shouldn't be another interim. They should go for an elite manager. And that episode, obviously, got a huge reaction, your comments there. and thanks everyone for subscribing. Keep subscribing so when there is another breaking news, another Tottenham manager, you'll be first to hear about it and read about it and get CPE's views. But look, Roberto de Zerbi, we know from Brighton, we saw what he did at Marseille, Shakhtar before then. It's quite a coup, isn't it?

1:47Also, particularly for someone you know, Johan Langer. Well, it's easier said than done to get an elite manager when you've got seven games left in the season. and you're one point above the drop. So yes, in that sense, I think it really is a coup. And to be clear, let's just consign the Tudor to history, where for most of us they've belonged. It should be a Stuart, really. Yes, so that turned out to be a terrible mistake. I think it's becoming clear now that Roberto de Zerbi would have been the person they would have liked to have got in when they were faced with the exit of Frank. We talked about that at the time, didn't have much choice, much later than they would have liked, but it was quite clear being literally hours after he left Marseille, Deserby didn't think it would look right, feel right, probably to his friends and the people who loved him down in the south of France to jump into a job and make it look like he'd been working his exit early.

2:42So I'm sure those dialogues have continued through the Tudor era because it was pretty clear that wasn't going well long before. You think they would have kept the lines of communication open? I know the way Johan Langer works. I know the way football works, H. There's no doubt about it. They would have looked at the three-week break after Forest. They knew that really making a move between Atletico Madrid, post-Liverpool, pre-Forest was just really difficult. But it's quite clear they knew they might have to go again in that break. And that's exactly how it played out. But obviously it's a very sensitive situation with what happened to his father, Mario, passing away.

3:22and our sympathies are clearly with Igor Tudor and his family. But on a very practical boardroom level, do you think they sort of almost delayed the announcement of De Zerbi or while Tudor leaving? Listen, I think that they were going to remove Tudor within minutes of the 0-3 result of Forrest. That decision would have been taken immediately. Calamitous result. It was. It was, you know, we talked about that. Neither of us could see that coming. We knew it was a big game. Nobody saw a 0-3 home defeat to a rival. Game over, OK? Then the unfortunate circumstances of him losing his father meant that there would be a natural, you know, period for respect, breathing space.

4:03But let me tell you, in that one-week period, it's quite clear that Johan and Vinay would have been immersed in discussions with De Zerbi. And let's talk about De Zerbi, OK? Let's be clear about this. I've been fascinated. You like him, don't you? Well, listen, I think he's an elite manager. Elite? What's he won? Well, I define elite as... Ukrainian Super Cup. I didn't say he was a trophy-winning manager. I said he's elite, meaning he's operated at the elite level. For me, elite is demonstrable success in the Premier League with Brighton. Sixth place for Brighton. That's the elite league in Europe, and he did well for them.

4:39With fantastic players. I'm playing slight devil's advocate here because I do admire him. I wouldn't consider him elite. I would consider him A slash B. But if you look at Brighton, totally different situation to Tottenham Hotspur in terms of the quality of the squad. He had Kaiseido. He had McAllister. He had Mitoma as well. He had an outstanding collection of players generated by people you know well in Paul Barber and Tony Bloom. The great recruitment. He's not got so much of that at Tottenham. And following on from Graham Potter, whose best work in football arguably was that period at Brighton.

5:13Until last night, Sweden. Well done, Graham Potter. Yeah, well done. But which got him the Chelsea job. So look, but I want to look at this from Deserby's perspective. In the last few hours, you know, it's kind of being made out here that in effect, you know, Spurs are incredibly lucky to get Deserby. Yes, it is a coup, your word. How did they persuade him? We'll come on to that. But let's look at this from Deserby's perspective, OK? The last two gigs, Brighton and Marseille, have not ended well. So he is an out-of-work manager where there are question marks about how those two jobs ended, point number one.

5:48Point number two, everybody has talked about the so-called managerial merry-go-round that we can expect this summer, which means lots of elite managers, my word, in the marketplace for a short list of big jobs. Like? The managers coming out of the World Cup, Parch, etc. But where are we seeing availability? My point is simple, okay. Tottenham Hotspur is one of the biggest clubs in the world, playing in the most attractive league in the world for coaching, the Premier League, playing in London, the sexiest city in the world, playing in the best stadium in Europe, the finest place to go to work, the best training ground.

6:30This is an absolute plum job. I would respectfully suggest almost any coach in the world would consider this position. Roberto De Zerbi's sitting wherever he's been since leaving Marseille, and he is looking at this, and in my opinion, he's thinking, I might be, if Spurs survive, and most people think they will, okay, however they do that, I might be on a short list of five with a 20 % chance of landing that job. He might scan his eye around what Chelsea might do, what Liverpool might do, what Manchester United might do, and say, again, I'm not top of the list for any of those jobs. I'm in the frame, but I'm in an open competitive race.

7:14Right now, Spurs want me, and I can lock down that job in a one-horse race, if we can agree terms, to be the manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world for all those trials. So in my opinion, fair play to the fella. He's had a look at it and said, I'm going to put my hat in the ring here because this might be my last chance. And I'm absolutely sure that when Spurs made the smart decision to forget these cameo, short-term, hire an old club legend who hasn't managed for years and get a proper, current, live professional manager in the building, they will have said to him, Roberto, it's now or never.

7:54We're making that appointment. We could go and get a Glasner out of Palace, who's only got two months left. We could go and get a Iriola out of Bournemouth, who's only got six weeks left. We're making a permanent appointment. We want it to be you. Are you ready to commit? And that's why I think this is good for him and good for Spurs. So at the moment, he's committing to a relegation fight. Surely then money plays an even bigger part in getting him. Well, the briefing so far has been, and there's been a lot of speculation about this, understandably. I remember you saying to me, you know, this is risky for most managers.

8:30it would appear that Deserby has agreed that he'll take that risk. In other words, right now the focus is survival, and in the event that that doesn't work and they go down, he signed on for the job of getting Spurs straight. Did that surprise you, that there wasn't a relegation clause in the contract? It did surprise me. I think that an elite manager like him might well have said, look, it might suit both of us if it doesn't quite play out for this to be the shortage marriage in history. So that is a coup for Tottenham, for your mate Langer and for Vinay to actually have ensured that that wasn't, because everyone kind of assumed they would do that, that he had that get out.

9:08I think that is a sign of commitment on both sides. Or a sign of big money? Well, no, I don't think it's to do with money. I think it's that the overall deal will come to that. But I think that this particular issue of whether the only way they could persuade a current top manager like De Zerbe was to say, and by the way, if it doesn't work out in the next seven games, you can go. That was not on offer. And I've explained to you, I think he sees that risk as part of committing to Spurs and getting what I am describing to you, Henry, as one of the plum jobs in European football. He's also a character.

9:46He's backing himself. And nobody thinks it will be his fault if they go down. And let's face it, if they do go down, then working with the club to, as we described in our relegation episode, three episodes ago, it will be a major financial moment for the club. The owners will have to dip their hands in their pockets. They'll have to get plenty of footballers out. They will have to absorb real cost savings, but they should still be able to retain the lion's share of a Premier League team with all of the advantage, a huge club like them with their parachutes and bounce straight back up with De Zerbi.

10:20Do you think they're more likely to keep those players when they've got a manager of that level of De Zerbi if he stays on? I mean, Romero and players like that will go van der Ven possibly. But you actually genuinely think the majority of the players that they would want to keep will stay? I happen to think that would be the case, but I don't expect them to be relegated. Let's be quite clear about that. I think the whole point of moving away from this, you know, very risky interim to hiring a proper permanent manager, as I told you weeks ago, was the right thing to do. I think that meaningfully increases the probability that they gain enough points in the next seven games to stay up.

10:59And the players will respond to him. I think so. I think it's really difficult to establish authority when you've got seven games, when not a single person believed that there was anything Tudor could do to keep his job. What does that do? So why did they appoint Tudor? Because there was no other option. No other option. They tried to get to Serbia. That's what we're hearing. But what you're saying is that he was doomed before he even started. I'm saying that the authority that that job requires is somewhat undermined by such a short-term role. That's gone. Let's push it into history. You now have a permanent manager.

11:36I promise you there'll be a different vibe in training when these players come back from international duty, when he walks in the building. He's there for the long haul. There's no question about it. If you want to stay at this football club, you're going to need to impress De Zerbi. There's going to be a lot of change this summer. I'm sure you're going to talk about that too, H. But right now, I think it just feels like a grown-up's arriving. Just like, yeah, and that is good. A grown-up who is going to deal with some of these kids. Because actually, if what you're saying is they're effectively going to play for the manager rather than the shirt as they should have done before, I would say that's an indictment of the character of some of these players.

12:14Of a Romero who gets sent off. Not of an Archie Gray who I think's been outstanding. and one or two others like Bergwahl. And in fact, it's been some of the kids who have worn the shirt with pride. But actually, I think some of these players, we keep talking about managers, and I understand your perspective on this, but at some point, the players have to take individual responsibility for the collective good. And I don't think enough of them. And if what you're saying, and Lange and Vinay are obviously not betting on this, but backing this prospect, is that if you've got someone of the individual substance, which De Zerbe clearly has, He looks like an ultra who's just sort of stepped from the terraces with his gear and he's sort of swaggering his attitude.

12:54Tudor looked pretty scary as well, by the way. Tudor looked pretty scary. But as you say, he was on a hiding to nothing because he had this interim element to him. And he didn't know the league. He didn't know the league. And De Zerbe does. And De Zerbe, I'm sure, will have an impact. But the players cannot get off scot-free because they're the ones who got into this. They will not get off scot-free. And again, when we talked about Manchester United, do you remember we talked about this crucial issue around timing? And again, this is important. This is why I felt without the shadow of doubt, I would have gone for a permanent appointment.

13:29However short that list is, I would have been looking for a permanent appointment because I see meaningful advantage to Tottenham Hotspur in the scenario where he keeps them up of having this fella in the building at the end of this season, working, first of all, having seven games to look at these footballers, having seven, eight weeks to work with Langer and Co on their summer thinking under a survival scenario. They win the first couple of games and they look, say, they're already into plan A, which is what do we do this summer? Compared to Henry, let's look at those big six rivals, big six rivals, all of whom may be messing around in the manager market for June and early July, may be waiting for the World Cup to end, not being active in the transfer market in late May, early June, when real deals get done.

14:25So for me, huge strategic reward for having somebody as your coach who you know is going to be here in the summer. Do you think it's significant that in the statement from Tottenham Hotspur yesterday that he was described as a head coach rather than a manager? Because I think we were all expecting him to be a manager and to have that influence. So where does that leave the dynamic with Lange? Well, I think the thing to say about the whole sporting director, head coach, manager relationship is that we're making a bigger deal about that in the Premier League than we ever have done previously. So why did Arteta have his title changed?

15:02And Arsenal, and Vinay was there when it happened. They actually made a big thing about it in the statement when they extended his contract, that he's gone from head coach or first team coach to manager. It is a big deal. It is a big deal. But I would say that a person who has been, you know, who played and has been schooled and had much of his career in Italian football is used to, as has always been the case, a structure of a head coach and sporting director where they fully appreciate and understand that there's just a whole boatload of work that needs to land on the sporting director's desk, not on the coach's desk.

15:41So I doubt that was an issue. Now, don't get me wrong, it was no issue for Arteta when he took his job initially and indeed when we recruited Unai initially. And after a period of time when the manager gets his foot under the table, maybe wants to flex a little bit, hey, I want to be called manager because I'm a bit unhappy with some of the decisions going on here and I want it to be crystal clear I'm in charge of all footballing matters. Is that what happened with Unai? I think it's what's happened with Unai. It happened after I left. It certainly seems to have happened with Arteta. And definitely, there's a little bit of a pushback from the elite top end, but only after you've earned the right to have that conversation.

16:19We're way ahead of that moment at Spurs. But my point is, there is a lot of work to do this summer. Roberto De Zerbi's primary focus, one, keep the team in the league. Two, work with the club. Let's face it, I was very struck, Henry, by comments that Vinay made in programme notes about two things, that the club, post the Levy era, needs to meaningfully move the wage bill up. They know that, you know, Daniel's incredibly long-running tenure will be characterised, history will look at that era as an era where they built the finest stadium in Europe and that's all to his credit. and the club were positioned and repositioned as one of this new concept of a big six.

17:05But in reality, the team didn't match the stadium or that status. They still spent a bit. I mean, everyone talked. They did. But just on this, we talked to Pochettino on the back of Madrid 2019 and I saw you before the final. It was a lovely day. Obviously, it didn't work out for Spurs. And then the feeling then was, let's build on this. You had Kane homegrown. You had Son who came in for actually a fairly reasonable fee. Since then, they've spent£975 million on players. And who are the good ones they've got now? OK, Kulusevsky's worth more when he's fit. Archie Gray, clear. Jed Spence was£12 million.

17:47Obviously, now with the England tax on him, he'll be worth more. And others as well, Van der Ven. But they've wasted so much money. Now, is that an issue because of effectively a cap on the salaries that they were with? So they couldn't get the elite players. That's what Vinay is referring to. He's drawing a distinction between capital spending in the transfer market and the wage bill, which most obviously, despite their top six revenue and sort of perceived status, has not been matched. What's their top players on? I don't know the answer to that question, but they have definitely missed out on players because of salary considerations.

18:30And when the new chief executive publicly, in programme notes, refers to we need to meaningfully move up our wage bill over time, it is an acknowledgement. There's no point having this phenomenal stadium generating huge amounts of incremental revenue and more revenue than some of their big six rivals, meaningfully more revenue, for example, than Chelsea and yet often losing out in the player market because of a lack of willingness to pay wages so I think we're going to see that under Deserby and under this regime it's been stated by the chief executive and I think the second thing he referred to and you've said this to me repeatedly when you look at that team that played in that stadium in 2019 against Liverpool you know France's captain in nets two Belgian centre-backs Alderweireld and Vertonghen Up top, you know, Kane and Son, international elite footballers, experienced footballers, all leaders.

19:28And you look at the team today, as Vinay said in his programme notes, the team needs to add some experience and leadership to what I think most fans, even in this dark season that's gone horribly wrong, most Spurs fans I speak to think some of the young signings do look very promising. Archie Gray should be their player of the year. Yeah, not just great. But shouldn't they also be developing more of their own? Because Harry Kane, one of our own, that's... I mean, who was really trained on from that academy? Yeah, listen, we always talk about the most profitable activity in football. You worked at three clubs which had good academies in terms of developing them.

20:07Liverpool, Chelsea, Villa. Not when I arrived, by the way, at Villa, that's for sure. It was the number one focus of our regime because it is existentially important to develop your own players either for first team to avoid hugely expensive transfers or B, to be able to sell those players to generate profit. But does it also change the culture of a club if you do have that emotional attachment to someone who is homegrown, who is in the first team? I happen to think a spine of players who really identify with the club's history and tradition, who fans get by, I think it is a source of advice. I don't think it's must have, but I think in general it's a pretty positive dynamic.

20:44But let's be clear, Henry, let's get back to where we are right now. There won't have been too many conversations with Deserby last week around, you know, improving the academy. Focus number one, survive. Focus number two, after survival this summer, meaningful change to this team that has massively underperformed this season. But yes, let me do my Jerry Maguire bit and show you the money. So I suspect... He's not coming cheap. No, I think you can safely assume that... If Pep is up here, wage-wise, where is our friend De Zerby? I think he'll be in the next layer below. I would think that we know that Pep is certainly in the twos, north of£20 million all day, and that's the top end.

21:29I suspect that for this job... Well, look, the benchmarks. When Graham Potter went from Brighton to Chelsea, that was a£12 million a year basic salary. He'll certainly be there or a bit above, maybe£12 to£15 million for this job. and that will be a key feature. I suspect on top of that will be meaningful bonuses. What is meaningful? Well, I think firstly, clearly, there'll be a meaningful bonus for keeping the team in the league. Five million, ten million? I think that's high. No, I would think... You think it's high? But sorry, it's worth a hundred million quid for them. I know. You keep telling me if they stay up.

22:04I agree. Why doesn't he deserve a chunk of that? Because he will be the catalyst for their survival. Because they were going down under Tudor. You're missing my point. It's not whether it's high as in, I think it's high. I think that if you're getting£12-50 million of basic pay, you know, that is a huge salary. I suspect maybe£2-3 million for survival and then in his core contract, no doubt about it, we all know that the priority for this football club is Champions League qualification. So on top of a basic salary, probably every year, a meaningful multi-million pound bonus for achieving Champions League and maybe more on top.

22:41for winning trophies. So a very attractive contract. Maybe if it is five years, there may be a contract that's worth the best part of 60, 70 million pounds. That is what is attracting this manager. You know, this is one of the best jobs in football. So you're saying it's financial as well as football attraction? I think it's one of the biggest jobs in football. And for this manager at this moment, an opportunity to grab it with both hands, take some risk on the downside and give himself a shot at becoming, you know, a Tottenham legend as coach, I think that's a fantastic opportunity. I think it's a bit early for a statue, maybe a small mural on the high road.

23:24And Langer and Vinay, this is good for their job security? Well, I think a couple of things to say about that because there's been a lot of commentary. The way I look at it is that really now, This is the first full-time appointment of the new management team at Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. And by team, I mean executive team, CEO Vinay, sporting director Johan Langer, but also of the Lewis family who are ultimately calling the shots. And let me be really clear about this. There is no football club in the Premier League where on these really mega decisions, coaching appointments, ultimately it is in fact the decision of ownership.

24:05But sorry, with respect to the Lewis family, where is their football expertise to make the final decision on a manager? Well, that's why they have professional executives in Vienaar and Johan. But ultimately, they own the club. There's no business in the world where ultimately owners don't sign off. So my point's a slightly different one, which is you can consign the Tudor interim appointment to history. Thomas was appointed by Daniel. Tudor was a terrible mistake, and that's on the current regime. but they faced up to that mistake extremely quickly. This is a long-term appointment of a manager, the first of this new regime, which should be judged alongside this summer where with Deserby they'll be putting a team together that is Deserby's team.

24:53And I think that that will be the acid test of this management team. What happens if it doesn't work out with Deserby? What happens to Lange and Finau? I think it's too early to tell, but this is most definitely their appointment. There's no question about that. Let's be positive. Let's hope it really works out for him. But if there is a negative, they go down. And he's got the prospect of certain away fixtures that he, you know, I mean, even Lincoln fans are singing Tottenham away, alay, alay, which is quite funny. And Fair Play's Tottenham fans, they've been singing Lincoln away, alay, alay.

25:26But if he doesn't fancy a season of a fight to get out of the championship and a big club comes in for him. What is the financial dynamic there? Does the potential recruiting club, a Champions League club, because you rate Deserby and he is, say, in the EFL, how do they get him? Well, I think that's the point about this commitment because by not having, in effect, a relegation clause, i.e. a specific provision that a club can pay X if they're relegated and take him away. In effect, it's being left as an open negotiation. So you have a manager with a long-term contract, four or five years on£12 to£15 million a year.