Caught in the Middle of the Iran War: A Conversation With Anwar Gargash

21:06Anwar Gargash:I think the first thing I want to say is this war actually makes the U.S. position in the Gulf more important, not less important. Even countries that are basically at the receiving end of Iranian, let's say, missiles and drones, understand that they need America more today, not less. So I think this is also - There's a certain irony in that. Definitely there's an irony. But I think that, you know, I mean, you need the United States. I think the argument that has been mentioned, well, America is not going to be there to defend you. I think this has already been taken care of in the last decade or so.

21:49Anwar Gargash:We understand that ultimately American boots and American power is not going to defend the region. American boots and American power will look after American interests. But we understand that the starting point, and I think this is for a country the size of the UAE, starting point is to build your own threshold, which is your own capacity to defend yourself. And I think the UAE has proven that even a country our size can do that. But then again, to do that, you need also to work out your diplomacy, because you can't just take a posture that is military. You have to actually talk to the Iranians, talk to others, etc.

22:34Anwar Gargash:I think the third layer is basically these contacts. It is really American equipment, American training. And if you don't get the American equipment, what sort of layer can you get from an East Asian country like Korea, for example, or what can you get from another country? I mean, again, you saw during this war, the Israelis, for example, introduced the Iron and doom to help and support us. And we didn't request it, but the Israelis also understood that this is a very important relationship for them. And for that also we're very grateful.

23:11Danielle Pletka:To linger on the US for a moment, the centrality is about air defense systems and weapons and intelligence less than it is about the US presence. Is that that's the change from what you might've thought of 15 years ago?

23:24Anwar Gargash:Not necessarily, Because if I view the trajectory of UAE-US relationships, for example, today, in the 1970s, 80s, that relationship was really about energy and oil. Today, that relationship is much wider. You know, we've got in the UAE 60 ,000 Americans living in the UAE. This is a huge community that is actually part of a very multi-nationality population within the UAE. We've got trade at about$30 billion with the United States. We've got investments in the United States at about$1.6 trillion. That's only the UAE that I'm talking about here. So the American interest in the region, I think, should not be viewed with the prism of the 70s and 80s, which was a very much sort of energy and security defense prism.

24:21Anwar Gargash:Today, this is an important relationship. And I think one of the ironies really of this war is how central the Gulf is. You know, I mean, the sort of interconnectedness of the international economy that many people thought that the Gulf was more important 40 years ago. But then again, people now are discovering, you know, that this part of the world is very much interconnected with everything else. It has an effect on inflation. It has an effect on energy. It has an effect on food prices, etc. I think the world is very much changed. So I think it's not the issue of just us depending on, let's say, American equipment and American political clout and so on and so forth.

25:10Anwar Gargash:I think at the same time, America has vital interests in the region today. And many of these vital interests affect how the American economy is performing. I'm sure like other regions in the world too, but definitely this region is also part of that. I think a large part of it has to do also with the globalization that we have seen in the international system over so many years. And I think this interconnectedness is very much part of the scene.

25:40Danielle Pletka:Are you reassessing the value of having US military bases in the UAE?

25:45Anwar Gargash:No, I think this is essential. I think not only us, but to many Gulf officials that I've spoken to, they understand some of the challenges of having a U.S. military base in their country. But I think the war and the Iranian attack has made that more important, not less important. And this is one of the ironies or what I would say one of the failures, really, of the Iranian strategy. You know, to think that basically by targeting the bases, they are able to make these bases redundant in terms of our strategic thinking. But it's not the case.

26:28Danielle Pletka:I mean, it does seem it doesn't seem crazy to say that the bases neither deterred the Iranians from attacking them, became more of a of a target than they did a deterrent. Is that but what's the what does that miss?

26:40Anwar Gargash:Not not really. I mean, to a certain extent, the bases are a target. If you look at the size of the Iranian attack, only 5 % of that attack was really targeted at military installations. 95 % of the attack was really to attack economic infrastructure, because the whole idea was to try and hit the economic infrastructure and create that sort of pressure that will ricochet on Washington, and Washington will look at that.

27:13Danielle Pletka:Using the basis of pretext, but not a target. Using the basis as a pretext.

27:17Anwar Gargash:I mean, the numbers speak louder than words. And this is not only the case in the UAE, but this is the case also in other Gulf countries like Kuwait and other.

27:27Danielle Pletka:You talked about the reasons why a no war, no peace scenario is not a good or stable one. If you're being optimistic, what's a plausible outcome that would end this war in the near term? If we're being optimistic here, what does that look like?

27:42Anwar Gargash:Well, I think to start with, I think we are in a sort of protracted crisis. So I will not say that this is going to be a short-term crisis. It'll take some time for us before we disentangle, you know, what are the key positions here. So I think the first thing is we've got to look at this crisis as a protracted one. And usually to resolve protracted crisis, you do really need to de-escalate and work more on diplomacy. But I don't think there are quick answers. For the reasons that you mentioned also with regards to the transition in Iran, I think also we will see an Iranian system that will not be very stable for a while.

28:29Anwar Gargash:Not necessarily a change within it, but I think this is quite usual in a sense where you have 37 years of the stability of Hayat al-Ali Khamenei. Don't expect that that same stability is going to sort of continue straight away. So I think we have to also deal with that. I think these are important points because if we take these into account, saying that Iran is in transition and at the same time, this is a crisis that will actually take some time. I think once we say these, once we sort of digest these items, it becomes clear that the pace of dealing with the issue differs. So the idea basically is let's not concede very quickly.

29:18Anwar Gargash:let us discuss and open more channels and so on and so forth. I think at this stage right now, we still have maximalist demands. And for us to sort of break up these maximalist demands, it'll take some time. So that is the sort of framework that I'm thinking through.

29:39Danielle Pletka:Is the Iranian nuclear program a front of mind threat to you right now, or is it a point where? Definitely.

29:45Anwar Gargash:It definitely is. I mean, the Iranian nuclear program, I think, is the important part here of everything that takes place. I think currently, for example, you know, looking at, and then lead me to the nuclear program, looking at missiles, looking at drones, etc. I think every country has to think twice before choosing a military path because everybody is vulnerable today. Even if you're winning a war, your civilian infrastructures are very much targeted at any chance, even with a party that is losing the war. I would say today that the nuclear program remains at the heart of these negotiations.

30:31Anwar Gargash:And in my opinion, that is where the negotiations ultimately will lead to, back to. So the Strait of Hormuz issue, I think the Iranians are using it as a negotiating position, but ultimately they will have to come to the bigger negotiations. I mean, that is, in my opinion, inevitable.

30:52Danielle Pletka:We'll return to my conversation with Anwar Gargash after a short break.

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31:56Danielle Pletka:You mentioned the assistance that you've gotten from Israel since the war started. This was another irony of this war is that one of the other central parties in this war, the fighting with the U.S., the Israelis, you've said, and this is, I think, diverges from what some of the other Gulf leaders have said, that Israel will become more central and a bigger player and a more important relationship for the UAE going forward. Why is that and how do you envision? What do you want out of that relation? How do you envision that relation developing?

32:24Anwar Gargash:Well, I feel part of the sort of failure of the Iranian strategy, let us say, there are several failures here. I think number one, and perhaps some of them were already worked out earlier, but it was a risk-reward sort of calculation. I feel number one is the issue of trust between Iran and the Gulf countries was broken, clearly. And I've identified in several talks that there is a difference between trust and relations. I think relations with Iran will come back, but it'll be more functional. You have to rebuild trust, etc. And this is very important because you've never really seen a direct Iranian confrontation with its southern neighbors.

33:14Anwar Gargash:This is a new phenomenon where a lot of red lines were crossed. So I think this is part of it. The second thing, as I mentioned, the U.S. actually becomes more central, more important. And this is a clear product of this. But I think on the Israeli side, I would say that many countries in the region are going to hedge their bets. I think this is very, very natural that countries will hedge their bets. Contacts that were clogged for a while with Israel will be opened again, whether it is political contacts or whether it is contacts that have a sort of military acquisition type of thing.

33:56Danielle Pletka:Does that include the Saudis? Do you think normalization?

33:58Anwar Gargash:I mean, I don't want to name any single country, but I think that this will be the general feeling. The hedging will be very important. But I think for us, we have a formal relationship with Israel. And as we see that this is an important relationship, because we see it's an important part of a different Middle East, to be honest. And we paid a heavy price for it. It hasn't been an easier relationship for us in terms of Arab public opinion and in terms of how this relationship has been characterized. But we've been pragmatic. And we said, you know, I mean, we really have to see a different region.

34:35Anwar Gargash:And in order for us to see a different region, The Palestinians are talking to the Israelis, the Egyptians and Jordanians and others have formal agreements. Why not us? So I think we've been very practical.

34:47Danielle Pletka:Is it a relationship of trust at this point? Have you crossed that threshold?

34:51Anwar Gargash:Well, I think it's a very important relationship. I mean, the issue of is it trust or no, it depends because Israel also is a political system that is evolving. We have our areas of contention over how they've conducted their, the war in Gaza. We have our areas of contention also and disagreements on their plans, for example, in the West Bank, etc. But I think on the other hand, we have to see the front Middle East. And I think we have stuck now six years with this relationship. During this war, as I said, there were actually two wars, the way that we see it. There's an American-Israeli war against Iran, and then there is a war of Iran against the Gulf countries.

35:37Anwar Gargash:So there have been two wars, and we've been trying to sort of separate the two from each other, at least conceptually, if not practically.

35:45Danielle Pletka:So again, we - The implication being the message to the Iranians, don't blame us for a war that others started? Exactly, exactly. And I think not only that, I think a lot of the sympathy that the Iranians would have

35:59Anwar Gargash:gained in confronting the first war did not translate because they took on the Gulf countries, which were not part of it. And in fact, many of them were mediators and many of them, you know, like Oman and Qatar were trying to mediate, trying to sort of find ways out, et cetera. And I think this was a problem.

36:20Danielle Pletka:The formal relationship between the UAE and Israel started six years ago. And that was very much about preventing formal annexation of the West Bank by the Israeli government. That was a priority of your government at the time. there has been a lot happening in the West Bank that suggests something approaching de facto annexation, even if that's not formal. As you've watched those events, do you worry that it's going to approach a point where you would have to re-evaluate that relationship? Or to put it differently, is there anything short of formal annexation that would cause you to downgrade those types?

36:53Anwar Gargash:No, I think it gives us, I mean, Israel is going through an election. We have to wait and see what transpires. But I think we have a lot of, well, maybe clout is a big word, but I think our voice matters when it comes to many of the Israeli parties today, because they consider this also as an important relationship to them. I think we've leveraged that relationship successfully in many areas. One of the areas that we've leveraged it in the sort of humanitarian support that we have been pushing through through Gaza. We are now close to$4 billion of aid that the UAE has sent to Gaza. $4 billion is a big amount.

37:36Anwar Gargash:And I think we would have not been able to do that size of aid except by leveraging the relationship with Israel. Today, we are also emerging as one of the major players in terms of pushing the President Trump's plan also for Gaza. And at the same time, I think our voice is important when it comes to issues in the West Bank, etc. I have to come and say here, we are, of course, constrained. Where are we constrained? We're constrained, number one, by who rules Israel and what he thinks is essential policy, national policy for Israel. This is an area where, you know, your ability to influence that stops there, for example.

38:19Anwar Gargash:I think we're also constrained in a sense that on the political side, we're very much part of the Arab consensus on an independent Palestinian state and a two-state solution. Perhaps we're a little bit more vocal on the issue of the reform of the Palestinian authority because we feel that the Palestinian authority with its historical legitimacy within the Palestinian people has to reform itself in order for it to be the player that it should ultimately be in many ways.

38:52Danielle Pletka:Including with new leadership of the… Yes, yes.

38:55Anwar Gargash:And so what really transpires is a complicated picture. It's not a picture where the UAE really will come and say, well, I'm going to reassess. I'm going to do this and that. I think we have been playing a major important role in various developments. And I mean, this time last year, Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed, our foreign ministers meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, was critical in Israel accepting the 20-point plan. And, you know, I mean, he really took, and the UAE took a big gamble at the time where Netanyahu was basically barraged by all the criticism from everywhere. But we took that gamble, and that was one of the key meetings that basically supported the Israelis accepting the plan and ultimately ending the war in Gaza and recovering all the hostages that were with Hamas.

39:57Danielle Pletka:Notwithstanding the vision reflected in the 20-point plan and the continuing rhetorical support for the two-state solution in Arab capitals and Washington and European capitals and elsewhere, it does seem hard to imagine how we're going to see any progress towards an independent Palestinian state in the near term given Israeli politics, given the divided Palestinian politics, given what's happening on the ground in West Bank and Gaza. Is there a reason to be less pessimistic than that?

40:25Anwar Gargash:No, it's very difficult to imagine it, but I think it is extremely poignant also when you hear, well, what is the alternative? What is the alternative really to that sort of vision? There is no alternative to that sort of vision. So I think we need to keep working on this. I think the fact that we have the Abrahamic Accords is interesting because you hear also a lot of Israelis hearing openly an Arab voice of reason, Arab voice of compromise from the UAE. Not only that, but you also see a lot of Arabs, Arabs of pre-1948, that actually we talk to, they talk to our ambassador, and very much welcome how the UAE is actually engaging, because they feel that they're somehow left out of whatever is going on.

41:16Danielle Pletka:You mentioned the divisions within the GCC, within the Gulf countries. At the center of that has been your tensions with Saudi Arabia over the last few years. That has clearly hobbled the Gulf's common response and the kind of collective response that you noted would have been useful in the early days of this war and perhaps can still come together. Maybe just to go back to the fundamentals of this, how do you explain the rift between UAE and Saudi? I mean, you can talk about it as a regional hegemon that sees its place being threatened. You can talk about the UAE's economic model being kind of eaten away at a bit by the Saudi competition.

41:54Danielle Pletka:But I'm curious for your explanation of where that comes from and then what that's meant as you've tried to forge this common response against the U.S. I would rather concentrate on our view of our relationship with Saudi Arabia.

42:10Anwar Gargash:I think we see that our security is very much interconnected. I can't see really a UAE that is stable without Saudi Arabia that stable. We have a land border. We have this sort of connectedness that our security is one and the same. So I look at it from that perspective. I think our economies are very much also interconnected. There is, of course, a big degree of competition between the UAE, which has been an open economy for a very long time, and the Saudis also through their vision 2030 to try also and change that economy. So our view is to try and emphasize that this is not a zero-sum game.

42:57Anwar Gargash:We can both do well. And in fact, if Saudi Arabia does well, we will do better and vice versa, and including other Gulf countries. So I think our relationship today is not in its best form. But I think both countries are working very hard in order to maintain, you know, the sort of areas of disagreement and to limit these areas of disagreement, because I think soon we will be able to understand that complementarity between us and cooperation is more important than, let's say, competition. Competition is important, but competition within bounds. So the UAE's view today is really about managing, let's say, the state of relations with Saudi Arabia, making sure that this state of relation is within the certain confines of cooperation, etc.

43:53Anwar Gargash:Because we know that at some stage we will be able to address this rift. Because it's not in the interest of Saudi Arabia, and it's definitely not in our interest, and it's not in the interest of the region.

44:05Danielle Pletka:The Saudis are the main reason why Emirati forces are no longer backing the efforts in Yemen the way you long were. As you watch the escalation of hostilities between the Houthis and Saudi over the last several days. It seems to be continuing as we speak. What do you worry about in terms of regional repercussions of that? And do you see any formula not involving a major use of U.S. force or a major regional response that will get the Houthi threat back to at least where it was a few months ago?

44:33Anwar Gargash:Well, we came into Yemen basically to support Saudi Arabia. And we came into Yemen to support Saudi Arabia out of understanding that our security is interconnected. And I think our forces in Yemen performed with valor and performed very well during that period and stayed there for a long time. And then we had this rift and we decided that when the Saudis wanted us to leave, we decided to leave because we were not going to be in a position where we will be confronting our allies for many years and our neighbor. And I think this was the right decision to take. It wasn't an easy decision, but it was the right decision.

45:18Anwar Gargash:Today, I think nothing changes. We are concerned whenever we hear that the Houthis have targeted Saudi Arabia. We are very much concerned and our sympathy is with the security of Saudi Arabia. But where are the areas here that we are a definite concern. I think one area is definitely if Bab al-Mandev is being used again as a lever of pressure, the same way that the Strait of Hormuz is being used.

45:48Danielle Pletka:Which appears to be the case today.

45:50Anwar Gargash:Which might be at some stage. I mean, the Houthis now are talking about just targeting Saudi shipping. But again, you don't know how the crisis will develop and will they really stick to that position or not. But I think at this stage right now, this is a war that's taken, I don't know, 10, 11 years now. And there has to be a political outcome here, a political outcome that has to be Yemeni driven and has to take into account also, of course, Saudi Arabia's security interests because of the border and so on and so forth. So I think this is where we need to move, really the understanding that this can go on for a long time and that this is the time really to address the core questions that had to be addressed 10 years ago some of them are to do with Yemen itself what sort of country do the Yemenis want is it a federal entity etc etc and how whatever happens in Yemen will also not affect Saudi Arabia and how can Yemen also be an independent party, not really an appendage to Iranian policy.

47:01Danielle Pletka:Another place where these regional tensions have played out is, of course, Sudan. You and your colleagues have strenuously denied the accusations from the Sudanese armed forces and various UN experts about Emirati arms and money going to the RSF, the Rapid Security Forces in Iran. Let me just read a line written in FA by Tony Lake, former American National Security Advisor, just to give people a sense of what the charges are. He wrote, The outside actor that bears the most responsibility for the starvation and ethnic cleansing, however, is the United Arab Emirates. As the RSF perpetrates genocidal attacks on civilians in Darfur and other regions, Abu Dhabi is delivering arms to the militia.

47:40Danielle Pletka:Without getting into the fold, you've made the case elsewhere. But I'm curious, as you look at Sudan and the kind of less in the headlines, but the humanitarian stakes and cost of that are immense, as are the regional security implications. What can the UAE be doing to put pressure on the RSF, especially to try to bring that war to the end? What's the path there?

48:00Anwar Gargash:Well, let me take you back a little bit. I think Sudan has had historically a problem with military rule. And there's always been a recurrence of the military ruling, and then there is a popular uprising. The last uprising basically ended the Bashir dictatorship. I think the first mistake was when the two generals, who are the warring generals today, overthrew the civilian government. I mean, I look back at that specific instance, and I say it was a big failure of the international community, including the UAE and others, of not really calling a coup a coup at the time. And I think this created an unstable situation where the two generals had to fight it out.

48:48Anwar Gargash:I think until that moment, the UAE had good relations with both parties and with many of the civilian parties. And we used our offices also to try and get them together to try and get a solution, etc. Today, in my opinion, there are, I don't know what's the number, but there are about 12 countries that are sending weapons to Sudan today. But I think that usually the sort of military propaganda focuses more on the UAE. So sometimes we feel that there are 12 countries you can name, but somehow you're just naming one country. But in reality, the UAE position has also evolved. As we saw that this is a never-ending war.

49:32Anwar Gargash:As we saw that this is a war that will not end in a term of a victorious party and a vanquished party. As we look at the history of Sudan, of continuous civil wars and mismanaged military dictatorships, etc. I think we've moved really and our position is more articulated within the quartet, which includes the United States, us, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. And definitely the European Union is very close and the African Union to that position. The position here is important. Number one is ceasefire right now. I think you have to end the war right now. Now, the party who is against ending the war right now is General Burhan, the SAF, because for two reasons.

50:21Anwar Gargash:I think number one is he believes that he can win, and because I think he wants also to be president. And for him, perhaps this is the sort of price that you have to accept that I'll end the war if you make me a president. And I think this is something that is a problem. The second part is open, unfettered humanitarian support. I mean, the UAE already has commitments that are close to$700 -$800 million for humanitarian Sudan. And we have a problem pumping all of this humanitarian aid there. But I think the third thing is very important. The third thing is Sudan has to see a civilian transition.

51:03Anwar Gargash:because clearly the two generals have lost really the legitimacy to rule Sudan. We have to go back to the civilian transition. After the Berlin Conference a few months ago, the civilian track is becoming much more prominent. And I think it is gaining ground in many ways. So again, this is really the UAE position. It has evolved from a position where we tried to reconcile the two generals to a position where we were closer perhaps to the RSF, but with the sort of tragedies that we saw Darfur and post-Darfur, it has shifted really to a position of seeing civilian transition as the only way out in Sudan.

51:51Danielle Pletka:Do you have unique leverage or is there something you can uniquely bring to this, especially with the RSF that can contribute to that transition?

51:57Anwar Gargash:I think many countries have leverage. We have leverage. Many of the other regional powers have leveraged today. But ultimately, the decision to stop the war is with General Burhan. I think he has to take that first step and say, you know what, I'm going to stop the war right now. But I think he has political ambitions that are basically undermining.

52:21Danielle Pletka:And the RSF would respond to that favorably in your view.

52:23Anwar Gargash:Well, the RSF has already said that many times. But again, I think ultimately, if today at the end of a war in Sudan, you have a reinstatement of military dictatorship, you're really putting the seeds for another populist uprising against them. So why should you go through two stages when you can already work out a transition that the civilians will actually have to lead that transition? Because they were leading it and they were thwarted by the military coup that was led by the two generals who are fighting it out right now.

53:00Danielle Pletka:To close, I want to get back to your vision of the future of the region and the future regional order. one effort to try to shape this has come from, it's been really Saudi-led, the Mecca Pact, which involves Saudi, Turkey, and Pakistan, a kind of collective defense arrangement. How do you see that? Do you see it as a kind of constructive step?

53:18Anwar Gargash:I think the future of the region is, in my opinion, after the Yemen war, I've always described our policy from the Yemen war to the start of the Iranian attack on us and on the rest of the Gulf. I said our policy is geoeconomic. And I think the future of the region is basically in prioritizing geoeconomic policies. So really, what did we do between 19, I don't know, 17, 18 to 2026? We emphasized really our economy. We emphasized, we signed 38 free trade agreements, for example. We opened up and liberalized a lot of our laws within the UAE. We changed a lot of the economic restrictions that you had on any economy.

54:14Anwar Gargash:The UAE had very little and made the UAE more competitive. We've invested heavily, for example, in technology and artificial intelligence. And at the end of the Biden administration, we had a huge breakthrough with the United States that has also put a lot of our investments in AI as part of our, let's say, insurance for the future. We've used that also to work with the French on AI cluster. We're using that to discuss with the Germans and others. So the first thing I would say is the future of the region is basically in prioritizing the economy, in prioritizing technology.

54:57Danielle Pletka:And is that model under threat just given the security risks?

55:01Anwar Gargash:No, I don't think it is under threat. I think, in fact, this is what DOE's calling card is. And this is why DOE is influential in the region because people can see that DOE is successful by emphasizing that. And although we've discussed during this podcast all the challenges we have, what we're really trying to do is deal with these challenges. but our basically instructions, our leadership instructions to all our ministries and sectors, etc., is to emphasize the economy, emphasize opportunity, emphasize technology. I mean, why would two million plus Arabs come and live in the UAE? Palestinians and Syrians and Egyptians and others.

55:48Anwar Gargash:Because you create opportunity. You create a successful Arab state and Arab model. So I think beyond all that, that's how the future should look like, a future that is very much different from the past. I mean, again, we spoke about Israel and our relations with Israel. People only look at the sort of political security side. A large part of it also has to do with technology. A large part of it has to do with IT. I think this is where we see the future. The future we see is less politics, less war, less confrontation, and more geoeconomics where we come and say it's not a zero-sum game. If we do well, we will all do better.

56:30Anwar Gargash:That's really our message.

56:32Danielle Pletka:I'm interested in how you see the role of China in that scenario. There's been a lot of reporting that China has given some assistance to Iran during this war. You were, I believe, in China, or at least your president was in China recently for a visit. How do you see the Chinese role? and what are your discussions with the Chinese about moving towards that order, especially when it comes to Chinese influence over Iran?

56:56Anwar Gargash:Well, I think the Chinese are still less political in our region. And I think the Chinese are more, let's say, economic and commercial in our region. So China has, in my opinion, two sets of relationships. It has old relationships and new relationships. Old relationships are with state-centric economies. And new relationships are with countries like the UAE, where, you know, we, I don't know, the figure is about$100 billion of trade with China, for example. So China is, in a way, understands that the future of Chinese relationship in the area is its new relationship. But again, I mean, China also looks at the crisis from a prism of China-U.S.

57:45Anwar Gargash:relationship in many ways. So there are different considerations right now. But I still don't see a very political China in our region in many ways. So we're pressing ahead with a lot of commercial relationships with China. China is our largest trading partner, as it is with many, many other countries in the world. I think this also leads you to basic issues within the view that we have in the UAE. One thing is our president believes, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed, clearly believes in what I would call strategic autonomy. The idea that this is a changing international system. Our relationship with the United States is a cornerstone of how we do things.

58:28Anwar Gargash:Our relations in the region have to be managed, but we also have to have an Asia policy with China and Korea and others. So he's very much there. And if you look at, for example, what we have done with Africa, today we have about$150 billion invested in Africa dollars, and we have a trade of over$100 million with Africa. Again, we saw an opportunity. We took a risk. But the whole idea is this is a world that you want to sort of keep your core relationships, make sure that these core relationships are for areas where you need to develop them, for example, technology and AI and others, and secure them.

59:11Anwar Gargash:But at the same time, you have to be also open towards other opportunities as you move forward.

59:16Danielle Pletka:Would you like to see China playing a more forceful political role in managing some of the security threats so we can get to that future? Well, definitely.

59:24Anwar Gargash:I mean, if China can really help on the issue of the maritime security of the Strait of Hormuz and lean on that matter, it doesn't have to be a military presence. But I think it's very welcome because China benefits from Bab el-Mandev. It benefits from the Strait of Hormuz. So definitely any sort of Chinese, let's say, influence towards securing what I would call international law. And in our case, this is very important. If China can also impress on Iran on a political solution, it's very, very welcome.

1:00:01Danielle Pletka:Can you say anything about the conversations that have taken place between your government and the Chinese government?

1:00:05Anwar Gargash:I would rather not, but I think the Chinese know our view and they respect our view. And definitely, as I said, China has an interest really in upholding, let's say, the sort of freedom of navigation within these straits, not only on the principle of international law, but practically also for its own benefit.

1:00:30Danielle Pletka:Well, Anwar, thank you so much for doing this today, both laying out very clearly your analysis of a very complicated situation now, but also holding to that vision of what a future order might look like. I hope we can pick up that conversation once we're through this current crisis, whenever that is. But for now, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you very much.

1:00:47Anwar Gargash:Thank you. Thank you.

1:01:17Danielle Pletka:We release a new show every Thursday. Thanks again for tuning in.

1:01:47Danielle Pletka:slash spotlight to sign up for Dan Kurtz-Valen's free weekly newsletter featuring more of the clear-headed analysis that you enjoy here on the podcast. Sign up today at foreignaffairs.com slash spotlight.