Your Betrayal Works for You w/ Dr. John Demartini | Ep 454

0:00Chris Do: Any of the stories that you've had in your life, I went through this, I had this, and I challenged childhood and all that stuff, it's all bullshit. You may not believe me, but if I sat with you for a period of time and we narrowed it down one by one, you would be in tears of gratitude for what happened in your life. You can be a victim of history or a master of destiny. It all depends on your perception. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. John Demartini. He's a world-renowned author, coach, speaker, and somebody you're going to want to listen to. What you're about to watch is a live in-person coaching session, and it gets really uncomfortable, but we have major breakthroughs.

0:36Chris Do: This story begins a little over a year ago, probably two years ago. I'm having dinner with a couple of friends, new friends. Tim Francis and a guy named Rohan. And they're both telling me about this remarkable person. Separate stories, and I don't know the names of anybody just yet, except for I know what Tim said to me, which is, if you could attend one workshop in your life, just one, this is the one, and you have to meet this man. And he has an incredible way of helping people through some very tough, traumatic things in their lives. And I was really intrigued. And then the other story was the gentleman across the table from me.

1:06Chris Do: And his name is Rohan. He was telling me about how he had, in the last couple of years, gone through some really traumatic stuff. His father had died. His business partner stole money from him and stole the business. And then Meta Facebook canceled his accounts, which he had close to a million followers. And he was devastated. And he was having a hard time. And he called his coach. And he was telling this whole story. I'm like, this is remarkable. This is incredible. Tim Francis just texted me. He says, do you know, Rohan, when he was telling that story, do you know who his coach was? I'm like, I don't know.

1:32Chris Do: I have no idea who his coach could be. He said, Dr. John Demartini. Small world. So he's helped a lot of people through lots of things. He has something called the Demartini Method, obviously. And it helps people through some of their toughest roadblocks. And I'm hoping, rather than just me extending the interview, is that first we can just describe it so everybody here knows what's going on. And if there is somebody who has something they'd like help with for Dr. Demartini to demonstrate, we can work on it together and see, hopefully, just the genius behind all this. And I just want to be a student here and listen and learn.

2:06Chris Do: The quality of your life is based on the quality of the questions you ask. The questions you ask make you conscious of what you've been unconscious of. So it helps you expand awareness. And the method, which I've been working on for 52 years, is a series of very concise questions that help you discover the hidden order in the apparent chaos, the disorder. Claude Shannon, in information theory, basically said that information that's missing is entropic and represents disorder. And if you reclaim the information, you can find the hidden order in things and why things are occurring, the meaning behind it.

2:45Chris Do: So it's a very series of concise questions to help navigate people from emotional distractions to poison presence. So they can be grateful for their life instead of comparing it to an unrealistic expectation that they projected. and blessed to use that and develop that for many years. And we've helped people in all different types of situations. I make a statement that there's nothing your mortal body can experience that your mortal soul can't love. So it doesn't matter what you've been through, what you've gone through, what you've experienced. It's your perceptions, decisions, and actions on how to interpret it.

3:27Chris Do: You can be a victim of history or a master of destiny. It all depends on your perception. William James said the greatest discovery of his generation is that human beings can alter their lives by altering their perceptions and attitudes and mind. So this is a science, a reproducible science, that I've trained probably 8 ,000 or 9 ,000 people in using and are using it around the world to assist people in navigating through the apparent chaos so they can look at life on the way, not in the way. Every word is a lot to unpack here, and that's how I felt last time. So how do we do this so that we can get a taste of how this process works?

4:03Chris Do: Because I think I'm 100 % bought in on this idea of the quality of questions you ask determines the quality for life. When you start to ask questions, you start to look inward and understand why you can overcome these things. And the perception of what has happened to you can drastically alter your destiny or where you end up. How do we do this? Because I just want to give you your space. You do your thing. And I just want to sit here and only chime in when necessary. That's great. Well, usually we start with somebody that's got something they want to work on. Okay. Sometimes I'm in a conference and I'll ask people, does anybody have anything that they want to work on?

4:37Chris Do: Challenges, conflicts, resentments, angers, grief, or anything, whatever it is that they have. And whatever area of life that they want. And then usually people vote based on who has the most intriguing information or issue that they want to work on. And we go there. We start there. And I think there is something about the risk of being vulnerable if you want to get a reward. I remember many years ago when I was talking to my business coach about seeing a therapist, he said, if you're not going to tell the truth, don't even bother. Don't even bother. And so I went in there with a mindset like, if I hold back, I'm all holding back for myself.

5:12Chris Do: So we can start with any kind of challenge, roadblock, anything traumatic, frustration, something that you've been trying to work through but haven't been able to. Does anybody want to start? And by the way, depending on what that is, sometimes I'm not using the Demartini method to help solve it. Whenever there are multiple stories, narratives, I try to prioritize it. So narrow it down. I'm going to narrow down what is the highest priority issue out of all of those things that you narrate. What is the highest priority issue that you want to address? The fear of being someone's going to come at me.

5:52if I shine too bright.

5:53Chris Do: When you say coming at me, what does that mean to you? By the way, you can never have fear of the unknown. You can only have fear of the content your mind is imagining. So what is it your mind imagining when you have that confronting you? That someone is going to defame me, is going to undermine me, go out of their way to destroy what I've built. It's already happened. Okay. And out of all the ones that have happened, that this is reminding you of, because the future is anticipated, but the things that are real that you've experienced, which one of those is the highest priority thing that you remember that was most painful?

6:35I had a friend who was the one that was really devastating as a friend of mine was jealous of my success. So she undermined my marriage. And then -

6:44Chris Do: What specifically did she do? Because undermining marriage is vague. What did she do that you projected she undermined my marriage? She betrayed a confidence and I wasn't ready to tell my husband something and she... So something you shared with her. Yes. She shared with your husband. Yes. Which you felt started to undermine the dynamic. Yes. Even though you were obviously sharing with her, there was some things in the dynamic that were concerning anyway. Yes. So she was revealing something you unconsciously desired. I'm going to be so transparent. I had an affair and I felt really bad about it.

7:21And I, I was talking to her about how I should go about telling my husband and because she was jealous of the relationship and she tried to seduce the person I had the affair with. And because she was rejected, she...

7:38Chris Do: Went to bring you down. Yes. Great. And she did it. Her name is? Deborah. Deborah. Okay, so now I'm going to start. Here goes the method. Thanks for doing this, by the way. Let's take Deborah as the individual we're going to do the work on, because I can just do so much in such a circle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What specific trait, action, or inaction do you perceive Deborah did that you disliked and despised and resented most? Let's narrow it down so it's not a narrative. It's a specific act that she did that you judged. She literally said to me, it's not fair that you have the life that you have, and I don't have what you have.

8:21Chris Do: So that didn't, you made a claim that it undermined your marriage. So that by itself would not undermine your marriage. No. So what did, are you upset because of that? Are you upset because of what she said to your husband? She told him that I was having you. So which one is the one you're resenting? Probably that one that she told him. Okay. Then let's get to that. Okay. Because otherwise you're just doing narrative. People love to share their narratives, but narratives don't get you anywhere. So what specific, did you actually perceive her or was it hearsay that she told your husband? He told me she told him.

8:58Chris Do: So it's hearsay. Somebody told you that she told him. Yeah. But you didn't actually perceive it. When you say perceive it, what do you mean? You didn't actually see her do this. No, no, no, no, no, no. So we don't even know for a fact, other than what your husband said, that that's what happened. Okay. So your husband claimed that she said the story, which is evidence, but you never saw her do it. I never saw her specifically or heard her do it, no. So you did not have anger at her until you found out that he made a statement. Yes, and other people, but yes. So other people told you that she had said that?

9:39Other people told me that she had bragged to them that this is what she was going to do. And then, yeah.

9:44Chris Do: Okay. So are you upset with the idea that she bragged about what she was going to do? The idea that your husband stated that she said it? I think it was the, she was bragging about publicly taking me down. The highest priority thing that you judged in her was that she bragged about taking you down. and we have hearsay that she confronted and told your husband. Correct. Okay. Let's work with that one for a second. Sometimes we have a convoluted series of things and we have to kind of narrow down what the issue is. I love your question. And sometimes it's hearsay. And I don't like working with hearsay.

10:25Chris Do: I like working with something factual that you perceive. So we have something tangible. Now the roughest part. There's a quote in Romans 2.1 from the New Testament that whatever we judge in others, we're doing the same thing. So let's define what she did again. She bragged about taking you down and then told your husband, told somebody that something you didn't want her to tell. So now let's go to a moment in your life where you bragged about taking somebody down and told somebody exactly what you're seeing in her, find out where it is. The earliest one I can think of. And the only one I can think of is my mother.

11:05Chris Do: Okay. And it's the same behavior. It's got to be the same action. I took her down publicly. Okay. Because the only reason somebody is drawn into your life is because we have a shame inside. We dissociate from it. We get proud, try to judge other people for what we're actually hiding inside. And we don't want to face that. we've done that and we're still carrying a hurt and a shame about doing that to the mom. Yeah. So, and you said what about your mom publicly that undermined and got back to her? I don't remember what I said specifically. It was just, there was a group of people. You can't have shame without their memory of it.

11:42I was just making fun of her.

11:45Chris Do: About? I don't remember what I said. What did she do that you wanted to make shame of her? She made a mistake. Probably a lie she told. Okay. So she made a lie in your mind and you didn't like the repercussions of that and you were trying to bring her down and humble her. Yeah. Okay. So go to the moment when you did that. Mm-hmm. You there? Mm-hmm. When you actually said the thing? Mm-hmm. Okay. Where were you at that moment? I was in Chicago in our apartment and there was a group of people and a man told me to stop. When was this? I was probably about 20 years old, 1920. Okay. The reason I'm asking those is the amygdala, which is a subcortical nuclei in the brain, assigned valency to stimuli and experiences that we have.

12:37Chris Do: And it signs valency to the hippocampus, which is a seahorse-shaped structure. And it is the source or storage place of episodic memories that have a time, a place, a direction, a location, and a distance. So if I narrow it down, I go into the hippocampus and I access that memory. And that's where we're storing shame or we're storing our own stuff. So you're there at that moment. And who specifically did you tell? There are about four people there. So you then, and - I was entertaining them with the story. Okay. And did your mom know any of these people? Yes. So then you said things behind her back.

13:20Chris Do: No, in front of her. In front of her. Okay. That she felt humbled by. And you kind of did that because she had lied. And so you did it as kind of a - Payback. Payback. Okay. So in that moment, can you see you did the same thing as this lady did? Yes. Great. Go to the next moment. Where and when you've done the same behavior again. Oh, this is icky. I was working in a corporate situation and somebody had sexually harassed me. And there was this opportunity for me to... Disclose? No, no, actually, no. I did disclose it to my boss. I went through the proper channels. And then when this guy got promoted, he demoted me.

14:08Chris Do: Where did you do what this lady had done to you? said things behind to somebody and tried to bring you down. Where did you do that? You tried to bring him down? No, I was just, somebody else did, but I was, I talked about how he had it coming. So I don't know if that's the same thing. So who did you say that to? My team. So you spoke to the team and kind of let them know some of these things as a way of kind of diminishing him. And these are people that knew him. Yes. Or knew of him. Yes. So in that case, did you do the same thing that lady did in that moment? It's not exactly the same. Well, yes, I did.

14:50I took glee in somebody. To bring somebody down and to go behind and say

14:55Chris Do: things about them. Yes. Yes. So is that the same? I think so. Maybe not the same magnitude, but the same. Yeah. It's not. Yeah. Great. That's number two. Go to number three. when you're owning reflections. This is called reflective awareness and transparency. We usually go all the way for till 20 examples are done until there's an absolute certainty that what you perceive in them, you have. Because as long as you're too proud to admit what you see in them, you're going to self-righteously project your values onto them and condemn them and hide your own shame and cover it up with a pride. And the amygdala likes to hold onto pride and hold onto fantasies about how people are supposed to live in our values.

15:34Chris Do: So that's why I'm going to go again, because whatever you perceive this person doing, you've done to the same degree. And I've been doing that for about 41 years and never had anybody that couldn't find it if they just kept looking. So let's go to number three. Yeah, the next situation, I was a board chair person and this person had been disrespectful. I made sure that everyone on the committee knew what this person had done prior. prior. And you wanted to do that to kind of bring them down from their pride and arrogance and put up. Yeah. And you told people that you know could affect them. Yes.

16:12Chris Do: So you did. That's the third example of where you've done that. Yeah. Let's go to four. It was a former partner. And I said some things to some people who would have been able to affect whether he got rehired in the situation. Okay. And in that moment, you can see who you shared it with. You can remember where it was and when it was there. So in those examples, would you acknowledge that those examples are different variations, but of the same thing? Yep. Fantastic. I may come back to those, but just because of time, I'm going to go on to my second little question. Hey, it's Rich Cardona, producer of the Future Podcast.

16:57We're going to pause real quick because because so far you've watched Dr. Timartini take one volunteer from a friend destroyed my marriage to finding four moments where she did the same thing herself. That's the setup. Coming up, he flips the entire story. Career, money, family, all of it, until the person she's resented for years starts to look like someone she owes. And it's a heads up while I have you, this is part one of part two. Next week, Dr. Timartini answers the questions driving the entire session. Why are minds going to the negative in the first place? including what happened when he spent two years testing pure positive thinking on himself.

17:34It's that good. Let's get back to the show.

17:37Chris Do: Go to the moment where and when you perceived that she did this behavior and tried to undermine you and tried to do something. Go to the moment when you first perceived it. The actual moment you perceived she did that and you were angry. Is this when he told you and spoke to you? So go to the moment when he began to speak about it, and now you resented her for exposing something you said. Even though you didn't see her do it, you had some evidence from him. Go to the moment you felt resentful to her at that moment, and let me know when you're there. Okay, I'm there. You're there? Great. How did that benefit you at that moment?

18:15Chris Do: You have spiritual benefits, intellectual benefits, business benefits, financial benefits, family, social, physical. how did it benefit you in your career? It didn't. I don't ask questions. I don't have answers. How did it help you in your career? Everything has both advantages and disadvantages. If you choose to see the disadvantage, you become a victim of history. If you look at the advantages, so how did it benefit you in your career? You were somehow unfulfilled in the relationship. Yeah. I was able to come out from behind his shadow. Say that. Say that because you're going to have a tear when you say it.

18:50Chris Do: Say it. I was able to come out from behind his shadow. Say it again. I was able to come out from behind his shadow. Okay. And you had been sitting in his shadow and you wanted out of his shadow. And that's when you had the fling, you had somebody that was giving you acknowledgement. Yeah. And you were living in a shadow instead of on the shoulders and equals. It made me visible when I felt invisible. Exactly. Okay. So you were unfulfilled. that's why you were looking for somebody to try to bring in fulfillment. Anything you're not willing to do with your mate, you got to be willing to delegate.

19:23Chris Do: If the man's not doing something that's fulfilling in the needs, then you'll find somebody else to fill those needs. Pretty normal. So you got out from under the shadow and how did that help your career? Repositioned yourself with your power? Yeah. Can you see you were hoping for that, wanting that? So can you see that the lady actually catalyzed you to be able to go and do what you want to do? Yeah. Did you ever give her a percentage of the income that you earned? No. As a consultant? No. Okay. How did it help you intellectually? What did you learn as a result of him speaking up, saying that?

20:01Chris Do: What did you learn that was valuable in your life? I learned that it wasn't my job to sacrifice for somebody else's happiness. Okay. So anytime you infatuate with somebody and put them on a pedestal, you'll minimize yourself and inject some of their values into your life and try to live in their values, which is futile. It's non-sustainable futility. And you had some infatuation with the man initially, apparently. So you learned that lesson. What's that worth? At least a couple million. Okay. But you never gave any of that to the girl, the lady that helped catalyze that freedom and that lesson.

20:40No. Okay.

20:41Chris Do: because somehow we don't see that people are not in our way. They're actually on our way, their actions. How did it help you actually financially? Well, in the settlement, I got money. Okay. And did you invest that? Yes. And is that giving you compound and passive income? It was no longer, but yeah, it did. So you then chose to use it and put it into a house or something? Yes. Okay. A lifestyle instead of investment. So it helped you financially because you got a house and you had a desire for a house? Yes. So did she help catalyze you getting your own house? Yes. And you now designed it and organized it the way you want?

21:22Yes.

21:23Chris Do: Instead of his or yours together? Yes. So you got financial remuneration. You got liberated intellectually and some things about not subordinating to other people, which is a basic reclaiming of your own power. and you also got a catalyst into driven back into your career? And did you go more into your career with more gusto? Yes. And did that give you some advantages in your career? Yes. But you didn't thank her for that? No. Okay. And how did it help you in social circles? Did it screen out people that were not really engaged in your long-term mission? Yes. And did you then prioritize and select people that were more in line with your mission?

22:06Yes.

22:07Chris Do: So you were living in the shadows through those other people, through your husband, and now you've shed those? Yes. That you thought were friends? Yes. That were friends to him? And I didn't thank her for that either, no. But now you're now selective with people that are more engaged in what you're up to? Yes. And understand your mission? Yes. What's that worth? Oh my God, a life. So she's helped you have your life back, your finances back, the house if you want, your career engagement, and you've learned a great deal about not living in subordination to anybody else. So now let's go and look at how did it help you physically?

22:42I got in great shape. Did you get workout back on the market? Well, not right away, but yes.

22:50Chris Do: Well, but you went back into shape because you know that fitness and looks is one of the key elements for dynamics. That's my self-image. Okay. So then you got to develop your self-image. So we can add that as another benefit? Yes. So you got a self-image out of it. You got back in shape. You got some cash flow out of it. Got a house. How did it help your family? You have children. Yeah. How did it help the children? I was more present. I was a better parent. Say that again. I was more present and a better parent. Okay. So then this lady, by her saying what she did, helped you in the dynamic with your children.

23:28Chris Do: Yes. Be more present. Yes. what's another benefit to your children you have two children one well one from that marriage one from that marriage so that's when you're addressing how else did it help her to her right how else did it help her when this lady did that yeah i think because of the different moving around that we did she blossomed as so your daughter got to blossom she became more independent probably and you got to be more of a present with her. So what did you think you did that was guilt generating? That should, you know, her father wasn't in the same house. When the father wasn't there, who became the new father figure?

24:11Chris Do: Nothing's ever missing. It just changes form. So who became the new father figure? Mentors, coaches, best friends, older men? Yeah. What's the benefit of them becoming the father figure instead of him? They were more present for her. So by what happened, this lady catalyzed it so she could do it. Now, when your husband left, did he leave? Or did you leave? I left. Okay, you left. Who became the new woman in his life that he starts to train again? A new one that he gets to train? How specific do you want me to be? There's a series? No, it's somebody who almost has my same name and looked like me.

24:51Chris Do: Because he's now in the next training program. He's teaching the next training program, and she's going to learn the lesson and get to grow some more too. How did it help you in your spiritual path? Bigger vision, new possibilities, new... New possibilities, seeing myself as a whole being. Say that. Seeing myself as a whole being. Say that again. Seeing myself as a whole being. What's the value of that? Isn't that what authenticity is? Yes. We sometimes exaggerate ourselves or minimize ourselves. And we have these imposter fragments, the parts. And when we integrate them, we get to be authentic and whole.

25:29Chris Do: And that's individually as a whole. Individual means undivided. You're not a person, persona, mask. You're an individual whole. So you got to grow spiritually, intellectually, mentally. in other words, socially, financially, your business, what is it you're upset about on this? What's the problem? What are you judging her for that you haven't done? And by the way, when you've done this, it's also catalyzed greatness in other people, but you may not have ever seen it. You may have felt bad that you did it, but the reality is that everybody gets to grow in these dynamics. If they don't grow, it's because, not because of what happened, it's because they've chosen not to see the blessings.

26:10Chris Do: They're making themselves victims of history, not masters of destiny. I'm just helping you be accountable to see that you're actually on track. The lady was a perfect catalyst to catalyze something that you were contemplating in your mind about getting out of that marriage. But you didn't have the courage to do that because you didn't want to have the responses from people judging you for jumping out of your marriage. And you have to have the perfect person to come in to help you catalyze it. Someone to blame. Someone to use as a scapegoat because you didn't want to be the one that said, I'm breaking up my marriage because of an injected value from probably a mom or somebody else in your life.

26:45Chris Do: So what's another benefit of this whole thing happening besides us having the time to get to meet today? Yeah. And thank you. Well, I just live in my truth now. Ooh, what's that worth? You can't put a price on that. Now I'm going to ask you another wild question. At the moment, Go to the actual moment that he said this again. And he said that she told him about these things. What exactly did he say that she said? Or what did you believe at the moment he disclosed what he did that she had done? He asked me point blank if I was having an affair. And I said, yes. Okay. Then he said, because Deborah called me and told me.

27:32Okay. Okay, so because Deborah told him, he then, was he intuitive and already kind of wondering? No.

27:41Chris Do: So he's a naive. Focus on his work or something. He was only working. You know, there's a price for every marriage, every relationship. They may be highly intelligent, but they know it all. They may be hardworking, but they're hardly there. You never get a pleasure without a pain. There's always a pair of opposites, like a magnet. Now, go to that moment when he said that, and you felt in a sense that that's when you judged her. She was saying something derogatory about you that you didn't want anybody to do. What would be the opposite behavior of that? If somebody is saying something derogatory about you to somebody and exposing something, what would be the opposite?

28:20Chris Do: Somebody holding a secret back and keeping a secret about you? Yeah. At the moment when he declared that she had disclosed that information, who is doing exactly the opposite to you at that moment, keeping a big secret and loyal to you at that moment? Because anytime you are infatuated with a loyal person, you have to have somebody that behind your scenes does the opposite, betrays. You never attract a betrayal unless you're addicted to a loyal. Who are you addicted to that was loyal to you that you trusted and kept secrets to at the moment he spoke? My therapist. Ah. Were you highly involved in your therapist at the time?

28:59She was helping me, yeah.

29:01Chris Do: But you were engaging her and telling her all your stuff? And she couldn't disclose it? Correct. Because anytime you get infatuated or like somebody that you can disclose your narrative story to that can't say anything, undermine that, you attract a betrayer to break your addiction to that because you don't grow in that. That keeps you stuck. So you get the person over here to make sure that you actually break through the stuff that you're judging in yourself. So just know that your dependency on her at the time is part of the reason why this also catalyzes. Because otherwise you're dependent on her.

29:37Chris Do: And now you're just like you were infatuated and playing underdog to the man. You were doing that to the therapist. And as long as you're underdog to the therapist, you're going to have somebody to break your addiction. Anytime you infatuate with somebody and become dependent on them and fear the loss of somebody, you attract somebody who comes in there to break that addiction, to strengthen that. It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Adobe Max returns November 10th to 12th in Miami Beach and online. Calling all designers, illustrators, photographers, content creators, video pros.

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30:43Use code FUTURE26 to register. Visit max.adobe.com to build your creative future your way. And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation.

30:54Chris Do: Now I'm going to ask you another wild question and reverse question. Okay. Go to the moment when you found out she did it. If she never told him that and never tried to bring you down and did what you hoped she would have done, kind of the fantasy, because you only resent somebody because they don't match the fantasy of the opposite that you hold on to. So if she had never told him and was never putting you down and trying to take you down and supported you like your therapist, what would have been the drawback to your life today? I would have been still, I was stuck. Did you ever thank her for helping you get unstuck?

31:31No.

31:33Chris Do: Can you see you've matured and grown quite extensively since this moment? Oh, yeah. But you never thanked her. Right now, if Debra was sitting in front of you, what would you tell her? I probably would apologize. Apologize for what? What did you think you did to her that would need apologies? Apologies assume that you did something that caused pain to her. I guess I didn't thank her. Thank her for... What did you think you need to apologize for? What did you think you did that you caused... Just because of all of the... You withdrew from a friend? Yeah, I withdrew. And I just harbored resentment.

32:05Chris Do: Good. How did that help her? Whenever we get somebody that's resenting us and withdrawing from us, we also get people that come close to us that infatuate with us. So who had her on a pedestal infatuated and got closer to her as you were withdrawing from her and resenting her? She got married. What if you found out that you contributed to her having a man that supported her at that time? That would be good. Wouldn't she a friend? Wouldn't you want her to find a man she wanted? Absolutely. Would you feel guilty about that? No. What would you want to tell her now? Do you imagine her in front of you?

32:35I would tell her that I'm really happy that she's happy and she has a child and she has a good marriage. And I think, I mean, I think.

32:42Chris Do: Do you think that maybe the dynamic that happened between you made that possible? Catalyzed as part of that? Yeah. Did you ever thank yourself? No. Sometimes we don't see the hidden order that's going on in our life and it doesn't match the stories and narratives and the moral hypocrisies about how life's supposed to be. And then we judge it all instead of missing out and instead of seeing the magnificence that's actually occurring. So right now, what would you say to her about her saying the thing to her husband? What would you say to her? You've got a lot of benefits out of it. Do you want her to live the rest of her life not knowing what you gained from that?

33:21No, I probably would. I would tell her that there were a lot of benefits that came out of that. It was hard. What was hard? The breaking apart of everything.

33:31Chris Do: What was easy about that? I felt relieved. So why was it hard? I had to face my shame about not stepping up and taking accountability when I was feeling hurt. So I probably created a situation where somebody could hurt me more. Who and what hurt you? What did he do specifically to hurt? I'm now going off on another little charge. He disengaged. Okay. What did you do to make sure he disengaged? People only disengage when they're not getting their values met. If I'm talking to somebody and I'm meeting their values and needs, they're totally engaged. If they disengage, it means somehow they're not getting what they want in a dynamic or in conversations with you.

34:12Chris Do: What were you doing to help him make sure he was disengaged? Was it that you were frustrated because he was working? Yeah, he was. And you didn't honor his work. That was one of his highest values. Everybody lives according to the hierarchy of their values. They make decisions accordingly. whatever will give them the greatest value. If somebody they're with is not understanding what their highest value is and is in their minds trying to get them away from what their highest value is, they withdraw. How has him working so extensively helped you during the time you're with him and he was working so extensively?

34:47Chris Do: How did that benefit you? Gave us a nice life. Is that also what gave you your house afterwards? Yeah. Yeah. And during that time when he was working so hard, where did you put your energy? Children? I was helping him with his business and raising our daughter. Yeah. Okay. So you were putting energy in the daughter and also - And the business. Yeah. And were you getting paid for that? So you're just sacrificing and helping him in his business and assuming he was going to take care of things, which you eventually did. Yeah. So you wouldn't have done it unless there was some sort of, in your perception, advantage over disadvantage out of doing it because nobody moves a muscle without an advantage over a disadvantage.

35:26Chris Do: So what advantage are you getting out of taking care of him and doing that for him? Lifestyle? Long-term objective? Long-term objective. What was the hidden agenda? Oh, the hidden agenda. You want to make sure you got to a certain level so you got enough to be able to, when you want to have the affair and divorce him, you got something? Oh, no. You sure? Yeah. Okay. Then go to what was the real objective there? Nobody is altruistic. Yeah. They have a hidden agenda or compensation for guilt and shame in the past when they're doing altruistic acts. Okay. I I think I'm getting lost in all the words, but I just, I wanted to prove my value to him.

35:57Ah, and did you? I thought I didn't, but.

36:01Chris Do: Did you feel that you were on a underdog position? You had to be. All the signs are showing it. Yeah. So you wanted to make sure that you contributed to him because you felt like you were getting a good deal. I needed to feel valued. By him? By him. So you didn't feel you were being valued for him. Who had you on a pedestal that overvalued you? You never get undervalued without overvalued. So who overvalued you at the time? Who had you on a pedestal? Well, he did. Okay. Well, that's confusing because you just said, I need to prove a value to him. And you're saying he overvalued you. That's contradiction.

36:35Chris Do: Well, he did. And then it waned. And so I was trying to earn it back. When it waned and he wasn't valuing you, who picked up that part? Who started valuing you? My daughter. Ah. So in the family dynamic, she started putting a value on you as he was waning. Okay. What was the benefit of her doing it, not him? You got to feel more like a decent mother because you came back and said that you wanted to contribute more and be even a greater mother. Yeah. So you got the benefit of being acknowledged as a mother by the daughter during a time when he wanked. Yeah, we had a very good relationship. What if you found out that there's always a balance of support and challenge, praise and reprimand that's conserved through life, and it's just morphing and changing forms through people, and when he withdraws, somebody else picks it up.

37:17Chris Do: and when he's doing it, you become addicted and subordinate to him. And you began to grow when your daughter started supporting you, just started gaining some independence. Can you see that happened? Yep. So can you see that that her doing it was lifting you up and making you stand more as an equal, which is leveling the playing field. And he was used to you being the underdog. And all of a sudden you're now not playing there and he's withdrawn and trying to find somebody else to give him the attention. Yeah, I can see that now. So right now, when he devalued you like that, what was the benefit to you?

37:52Chris Do: You started your independence. When somebody praises you, you become juvenile dependent. When somebody criticizes you and challenges you, you become precociously independent. If he hadn't have done that, you would have been trapped. I would have felt like I couldn't rise above him because then I would lose him. Oh, my God. Yeah. You only fear the loss of things you got above you. You don't fear the loss of things that go below you. One's prey, one's predator. So right now, what did he do or she do that's not part of the journey that was needed? It all worked out. But there is something I would have changed.

38:26Chris Do: What would you have changed? I would have put my foot down because my career was going great in New York, and I wouldn't have left. I would have insisted we stayed. So you got infatuated with a guy and sacrificed your career for a fantasy guy. So you're not probably going to do that, are you? You probably learned a lesson. Yes. So he taught you the value of that. Correct. you thought that you needed a man for your identity. I just didn't want to do things alone. You know, I wanted a partner. So while you're with the guy that's withdrawn from you, you're alone. I'm alone anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So right now, what would you change different?

39:02It would have been nice to have that feeling, the feeling that I was enough, you know. And who was,

39:09Chris Do: when he was not doing it, the daughter was doing it. And who else was doing it besides the daughter? Because they're balanced. For 25 years, I've been demonstrating in people's lives that you can't get one without the other because of the law of contrast. You can't judge something without its equal and opposite contrast being there to be able to perceive. So if somebody's criticizing, there's a praiser. You don't see it. You run the story. I'm a victim of criticism. him. I'm a victim all my life. You don't get anywhere that way. When you see both sides, you realize that I had a transformation of who is supporting and challenging me throughout my whole life.

39:44Yes.

39:45Chris Do: That's mastery. So who was praising you besides your daughter at the time and had you kind of on a pedestal and made you important? I want to include you in the life. Friends? Yeah, my friends. Social circles and friends? Social circles. I was taking a course at the time and learning a new skill. And those people and the teachers and people on that? So can you see that him doing that work and withdrawing allowed you to get the support from those people and the daughter? Correct. But wasn't that necessary for the next step? Was it necessary for the next step? All that education and all that information.

40:21Chris Do: Wasn't that part of your network and team and knowledge you needed to go to the next step? Correct, yeah. So where have you not been on track? I've been on track. So what's it like to realize you've been on track the whole time there hasn't been an error in this whole thing. I can let all this crap go. The illusion go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So right now, when you look at your husband, can you see he played a perfect job in this? Your daughter played a role. Deborah played a role. So if Deborah's sitting in front of you again, what do you want to tell Deborah right now? Thank you, Deborah. What do you want to say to her?

40:52I said, thank you, Deborah.

40:54Chris Do: Okay. Yeah. Now, is that a little lighter than you started? Oh, hell yeah. Is the narrative that you had completely looked differently? Yes. Okay. Now we've only did about two or three little columns out of the exercise. There's 80 columns in it. Okay. So we could just keep going with it. Just know that any of the stories that you've had in your life, I went through this, I had this, and I challenged childhood and all that stuff. It's all bullshit. You may not believe me, but if I sat with you for a period of time and we narrowed it down one by one, you would be in tears of gratitude for what happened in your life.

41:26Chris Do: and then you'd be liberated from the story that you've run, that we run our illusions to we're ready for the truth. The truth kind of sets us free from the stories. We use the stories because of all the moral hypocrisies we get indoctrinated about how people are supposed to be instead of seeing how magnificent they are in the journey. Somebody once asked me if there was a year that I would eliminate in my life, which one would it be? And I, you know, just like Queen Elizabeth said, she had the Annus Horribilis. I said, you know, 2005, but I wouldn't do it because then I wouldn't have met you, that person, you know.

42:05Chris Do: Well, anything you can't say thank you for is your baggage. Yeah. Anything you can say thank you for is your fuel. Yeah. So you can decide to be a victim of history because you're comparing current reality to a fantasy and how it should have been, would have been, could have been. or you can be a master of destiny to be able to see through and navigate it and realize there's nothing that I or other people did that's not part of the journey that was needed to help me move forward. Because you said things were being held back, but I haven't heard anything that's really holding you back. Just me.

42:35Chris Do: Sounds like you've been growing and doing and expanding in the areas that are important to you. Yes. But we can run that narrative sometimes. Sometimes we compare ourselves to other people. Anytime you compare yourself to somebody else and put them above you. You're going to inject their values. You're going to try to envy and imitate them, as Emerson said, which is futile and a form of suicide. And you'll eventually learn the hard way that that's futile and non-sustainable. And eventually you get the symptoms of that to wake you up, to not put people on pedestals. Nobody's worth putting on pedestals.

43:05Chris Do: There's no guru out there. There's no teacher out there. There's no saint out there. There's human beings out there. I've met enough gurus out there that people think are all somehow one-sided or enlightened or whatever. No, they're just human beings. We're all just human beings. And we're not worth putting on pedestal pits. We're worth putting in hearts. And now you've got Deborah more in your heart than when we started. That's our objective. Yeah. And that's, I didn't realize how clung onto that I was because I was still harboring. Yeah. That's why I'm not interested in your story because the story is, anytime you have an emotional story, you have incomplete information.

43:37Yes.

43:37Chris Do: Anytime you have, thank you. I love you. We're getting somewhere. No. Thank you. So that's at least a start. Shoulders