The future of fashion and dress codes

0:00This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host, Russ Altman. Since we started this show eight years ago, it's become an archive of amazing and impactful work by my Stanford colleagues. Research is not something that just happens in the lab, and as you'll hear on this show, the research at Stanford can impact areas like health, technology, law, and business, and many other topics that can affect everyday life. We hope you'll tune in to learn more about how research has the potential to help your life and to help the lives of people you care about in your family and your community.

0:33Fashion is an essential part of culture and of the human experience. It's not trivial, it's not superficial, and it's no less worthy of study than high art or music.

0:51This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host, Russ Altman. If this podcast brings you value or is just entertaining, one of the best ways to support us is to rate and review. Just press the like button. That would be great and would help us grow the show and spread the news about the future of everything. Today, Rich Ford will tell us that how we dress and how we're expected to dress are key signals in our community and have a history dating back to the Middle Ages. It's the future of dress codes. Just a reminder that today we're continuing our feature, The Future in a Minute.

1:26At the end of our conversation, I'll ask Rich a few questions, and he's going to give me a few quick answers. Before we get started, please remember to rate, review, and like the podcast. That'll be super helpful to us. Hopefully, we're bringing you some value.

1:47Every day when we wake up, most of us have to make a decision about what to wear. Some people think, I have full freedom. I can wear whatever I want. Other people have specific rules about what they need to wear at work or in whatever environment they're going to be spending the day. Who wrote those rules? Why did they write those rules? Are they fair? Do we have to obey them? These are good questions. And Rich Ford is a professor of law at Stanford University and an expert on fashion, dress codes, and how they manifest themselves in society and in the law. Rich, you're a law professor. So how did you wind up getting interested in fashion and dress codes?

2:27Well, there are two reasons. One's professional and one's personal. The professional reason is I teach classes on civil rights, constitutional law, and you'd be surprised at the number of cases that involve clothing and dress codes. You have cases where employers are sued by their employees for dress codes that are potentially discriminatory on the basis of race or sex or religion. You also have cases of students, for instance, suing their high school administration over dress codes, either for discrimination or because there are restrictions on freedom of speech. every year there are disputes over prom at prom time where a high school dress code means that some student gets sent home from prom and sometimes there are lawsuits, sometimes there aren't lawsuits.

3:19But the number of disputes was quite surprising. Wow. Okay. So that's a great answer. And I'm now all on board if I wasn't already. So let me ask, we only have a limited time, but can you give me a little history of dress codes? Like when did we start doing them? Why did they happen? And what are they meant to signal? So I begin my research in the late Middle Ages, around the end of the 1300s. And this is a time that some historians describe as the birth of fashion. So you're getting a lot of clothing that is tailored for kind of the first time in Europe, a lot of tailored clothing that's very expressive.

4:03And you can create like ruffled collars and big puffy sleeves and things like that. And that becomes a status symbol. So people of high status have tailored clothing that's elaborate. It uses sumptuous fabrics. If you think about the kind of clothing you see in a portrait of, let's say, Henry VIII or Queen Elizabeth. That high status clothing then is a way to communicate to everybody, you know, I'm the monarch. I have the right to rule. I'm a fancy aristocrat. You should pay attention to me. But you also have richer people who aren't aristocrats. Commoners are making a lot of money. The economy is booming.

4:43They start wearing this clothing too. And it's a problem for the social order because now you can't tell who's the aristocrat and who's just a commoner who made a lot of money. So they pass laws. They're often referred to as sumptuary laws, regulating who can wear what according to their social rank. And those are the first serious and elaborate dress codes. Really interesting. So I was going to ask if these dress codes tend to be formalized, as you just described, or I'm guessing there was also informal aspects of dress codes where it wasn't legislated, but people knew what they were kind of supposed to, I'm using scare quotes, not supposed to wear.

5:25And I know you've looked at the differences and similarities between those two kind of sources of pressure on people. Yeah, absolutely. So looking at, you know, as a lawyer, I got interested in the written dress codes and I was actually surprised to find just how many of them there were, how widespread and how detailed and elaborate. But that definitely carried over to informal dress codes or dress codes, for instance, that were enforced through religious authority or religious strictures, often having to do with, let's say, female modesty. Sometimes that was actually legislated and written down, but it was also just understood that, you know, a respectable, modest woman dressed in a particular way.

6:05And as you move forward in history, when you get past, let's say, the 1600s or so, the written dress codes start to kind of fall off and become much less numerous and less frequently enforced. But the unwritten dress codes become even more powerful as a signal of whether you're the right kind of person and you know what's appropriate to wear. Very interesting. So when I think about dress codes, I always think about teenagers, because I think that's what and what is so impressive and anybody who has talked to somebody is the teenagers who are subject to a dress code always know exactly where the boundaries are.

6:43And in my experience, they love to go right. First of all, they know all the loopholes and they also love to go right to the boundary. Like if it has to be, if the hem has to be at a certain point, they will be within millimeters of that rule, especially if there's enforcement. So have you looked at that? Because it's, I think, I think you have, this is a form of self-expression. People like to self-express. And even when there's a powerful dress code, they will work within that code. in my experience with incredible kind of creativity. Absolutely. Absolutely. High school students, even if there's a uniform, so they all have to wear exactly the same thing.

7:21They always find a way to tweak it. They go and they sew the skirt in a different way so that it fits differently. It's tighter or it's shorter. Yeah, they're very aware of the rules and find ways to kind of subvert the purpose. So if the rule, you know, usually in high school, it's about female modesty. I mean, that's most of the high school dress codes. They're making sure the girls are covered up. And there's a lot to be said about the sexism of that. But the practical effect is the girls are always finding a way to tweak the dress code to do exactly what the people who wrote the dress code didn't want while still complying with the letter of the law, if you will.

8:01So, okay. So you had us in the Middle Ages, which is actually shocking that that's so early, the birth of fashion. Have there been, in your assessment in the last 500, 600, 700 years, have there been some sea change moments where things have happened that are notable with respect to the kind of the history of dress codes, either written or not written? Absolutely, yes. I mean, a big moment occurs in the late 1700s. It's a moment that some historians describe as the great masculine renunciation. And what happens then, so the men, before the 1700s, the men are all getting the, they're the most fashionable.

8:41They're getting the sexiest fashions. You know, they're showing their legs. There's a lot of talk about, you know, men's legs and their shapely legs. Men are wearing high heels. They wear makeup. They wear jewelry. You know, all of this stuff is first and foremost masculine. And women are kind of trailing behind in terms of fashion. You get to the late 1700s and there's a radical shift where the men begin to dress in the way that we now think of men typically dressing, sober, practical. The three-piece suit comes into view as a fashion, dark colors. They get rid of the jewelry. They get rid of the powdered wigs, all of this.

9:19And it's reflecting changes in political values. So as you move from the old regimes that are about aristocracy and honor and flamboyance to the enlightenment where the civic values are sobriety and civic virtue and industriousness, men's clothing shifts in order to reflect that. when did the women pick up? Because a lot of the things you just described, legs, high heels, we now associate as some of the ways that some women dress. So when did that switch happen and how did it happen? So one thing that happens is that fashionable women and the daring women copy elements of men's fashion. And so it's something that's kind of a racy thing to do.

10:08So high-heeled shoes are an example where they started, at least in Europe, as horse riding shoes. The Persian equestrians came to Europe and they wore these high-heeled shoes. The heels fit into the stirrup. And they were like macho military guys and very, very sexy. And everyone wanted to copy them. So the men started wearing these high-heeled shoes. Later, some daring women started to wear high-heeled shoes. But when you get the great masculine renunciation, the men leave a lot of these flashy things behind and the women then carry on with them. So, you know, everything from high heels. A woman couldn't show her legs in public until really the early 20th century without it being scandalous.

10:52But now, of course, we associate, you know, shapely legs with women's fashion. so okay so this is this is really fascinating but i want to get to kind of one of the big i think a big elephant in the room which which is a dress code especially when it's especially when it's written down and especially when it's seriously enforced is clearly meant tell me if i'm wrong to be some sort of um subjugation like uh we're in we're in control and we want you the the masses to do and act certain ways. And so I just wanted to ask, has it been effective? Is this something you would recommend to a despot, either a despot who's a high school principal or a leader of a government?

11:34Are these effective? Well, it's a mix. I mean, to some extent, they are effective. And some of these dress codes in the early period, the Renaissance, late Middle Ages, they were strictly enforced. People were punished for them. And they had the effect of making most people recognizable according to social rank. But, you know, I think this is what you're getting at. They also had the opposite effect. You know, so at the same time, they really encouraged people to push the boundaries, break the rules, and most of all, to develop modes of dress where they were, What happened in the Renaissance period is that the bourgeoisie, the wealthy bourgeoisie, started to assert their own social status.

12:22So rather than saying we're aristocrats, they are saying we're wealthy bourgeois and we're important too. And I think that started the decay of the old aristocratic regime that over time the idea that the common person deserved respect was a really corrosive idea for authority. So it may have backfired in that sense. Interesting. And when I was preparing for our conversation, I was very excited. I wanted to ask you, and I don't know if this is a fair question, I wanted to ask you about hair because I think hair is kind of part of fashion. Is that inbounds for you or is that like, Russ, you have to get another guest if you want to talk about hair?

13:01No, I can talk a little bit about hair, particularly because for long periods in history, hair was literally fashion in the sense that it involved wigs. So the powdered wig, the long wig, the kings of France in particular, there was a myth that the noble classes had this long flowing hair and it was a sign of their masculine virility. But in fact, they're all wearing these long powdered wigs or sometimes powdered, sometimes not. But so wigs were a huge thing. They got shorter over time. And so when you get to the era of, let's say, Benjamin Franklin or George Washington wears a little short wig and eventually all of that is a symbol of one's position about aristocracy and class hierarchy.

13:55Today, of course, hair is a huge issue as well. Some of those workplace dress codes that I mentioned earlier involve hair, like African-American women with all braided hairstyles. And an employer says that's not professional. So there's a fight over that that has to do with a cultural misunderstanding in terms of what the hair signifies. Long hair for men. Some of the first legal disputes around sex-based dress codes were hippies, you know, or men wearing long hair where the employer said men have to have the haircut above the collar. So, yeah, hair is a big thing. I mean, growing up in the 60s, we were all very aware of the Beatles and the doors that they opened with their haircuts.

14:40Yeah. And if you look at a bunch of pictures from the 1968 grammar school, it just looks like a bunch of Ringo's, Paul's, John's, George's. You mentioned braided hair and you have written about civil rights and dress code. And there's interesting stories that I want to get to. Obviously, even thinking about hair, the Afro was a statement in the 60s. And so what can you tell us about civil rights and dress code and the tensions and maybe the progress that was made because of these issues? Yes. Well, the early, the mid-century, mid-20th century civil rights movement. lunch counter sit-ins and things like that.

15:23It basically had a dress code. If you look at the pictures, the people are in their Sunday best. The men are wearing suits and ties. The women are wearing skirts and nylons and heels. And from today's perspective, you'd think they're going to be running away from racist mobs or have the fire hose. Why would they wear this type of clothing? But it really was a statement and a demand for respect. We deserve the respect that this clothing signifies, and wearing that clothing is a confrontation for the white supremacist power structure. But it was really clear that people were expected to dress in this way.

16:03You mentioned the Afro. So you move forward in history a little bit. And one thing that happens is that African American activists start to understand that grooming and self-image are an important part of the liberation struggle that if you feel inferior because you don't look like the vogue fashion model, that's psychologically debilitating. And so the Black is Beautiful movement was all about saying, you know, we're not going to try to conform to white standards of beauty. Women don't need to straighten their hair. And the Afro was a statement of that, you know, this is a haircut that only we can have.

16:41You know, most white people can't do it. And it looks great and we're proud of it. And I'm sure there were cases in the legal system about this forever around that time because it would have been a way to fight a battle about this. Oh, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the same dress codes that for white men or men with straight hair prohibited long hair. They also applied to black men in particular where the Afro hairstyle was considered unprofessional. And then with women, similarly, no Afros. That's a black radical style, not professional. So what are your options? Well, you can cut your hair very short or you can straighten it.

17:31And so that, again, sent a demeaning message and was the subject of a lot of litigation and dispute. This is The Future of Everything with Russ Altman. We'll have more with Rich Ford next.

17:58Welcome back to the Future of Everything. I'm Russ Altman, and I'm speaking with Rich Ford from Stanford University. In the first segment, we got the basics of dress codes, both written and unwritten. In this segment, we're going to ask Rich, first of all, what was the second reason he got into this field? But also, what about issues of gender and what about issues of reverse snobbery? What's the future of fashion and dress codes look like? Don't forget, at the end of the episode, I will ask Rich a few rapid fire questions. He'll give us some answers and that will be the future in a minute. So, Rich, I was thinking in, I think at the beginning of our conversation, you said there were two reasons.

18:33and we went really deep into the first reason about why you were attracted to this topic. I want to give you a chance to tell us what the second reason was. That's right. I dropped the second reason. So the personal, that's the second reason's personal. My father was a very fashionable, snappy dresser. I guess he wouldn't have said fashionable, but he dressed very well. He cared about his appearance. I noticed this as a kid. And one of the things that I started to notice was that, you know, one, he did it because it was fun and enjoyable. But there was a serious reason, which was he was the first African-American in many of the professional environments that he operated in.

19:12He started as a college administrator in the early 1970s. And dressing well was a sign of self-respect and a way of commanding respect from others. And I could see that growing up. And so it made me understand that clothing and attire are important. They're not trivial and they're not superficial. Was this always unwritten and unstated? Or did you and your dad actually have discussions about this? It was mainly unstated. But, you know, he was very insistent that there is an appropriate way for professionals to dress and you are doing yourself and others a disservice if you don't do that. And over time, I could see that race and respect was a significant part of that.

20:04I just can't help but ask, did this rub off on you? And do you like think about fashion? Do you buy? Do you think about this when you're choosing your shoes or your jackets or whatever? Or is that not your thing. Oh, yeah. No, no, absolutely. I do. I mean, it did rub off. It took time. You know, I went through a whole series of like kind of punk rock phases and hip hop phases that my dad hated. But, you know, now as a professional, absolutely. I find I would feel quite uncomfortable if I didn't feel I was appropriately dressed to give a lecture to a group of students or in a professional setting.

20:40Great. So a topic that you've talked about and written about that I think is really interesting is this idea of reverse snobbery and dressing and dress and fashion. What does that mean? Yeah. So this is something that we actually see a lot in the, um, in the Academy, but you see it in Silicon Valley as well. It's rather than, um, dressing well to show status, you dress down to show status, you dress casually, um, or even sloppily to show status. There's an old joke that, um, you know, if you go to an academic conference, you know who the Ivy league professors are because they're the worst dressed people in the room.

21:17But part of the idea is, you know, I can afford, you know, I don't need to care what other people think of me because I have high status. Yes. The red sneakers effect, there was a study that showed that students thought that a professor who dressed in some weird, quirky way, like wearing red sneakers, they had a higher opinion of the professor than one who wore, let's say, a business suit and well-polished shoes because they picked up on the idea that, you know, well, if he's doing something quirky or she's doing something quirky, they must be high status. So the reverse snobbery, it's not just the attitude of the person who's displaying the reverse snobbery.

21:54It actually works. It sounds like you're saying that the students not only perceived the red sneakers were kind of a little funky, but then they turned it into perhaps higher evaluations at the end of the semester. That's exactly right. You know, there's an amazing, this as an aside, there is an amazing literature on things that help and things that hurt your teaching evaluations. You know, you and I live in a world where we're evaluated for our teaching and I've read about chocolate cake. I've certainly read about gender. And now I know that I need to go buy some red shoes. Exactly. The other thing I wanted to ask you about, actually speaking of red shoes, is the role of dress and dress codes and gender.

22:38We've touched upon it a little bit, but let's go right to it. What are the dynamics there that you're seeing? Well, you see, like after the great masculine renunciation that I mentioned before, what happens is women are the ones who are wearing the glitzy clothing, the elaborate clothing. Men cast that off. And as a consequence, women are taken less seriously because their clothing signifies that they're decorative, they're frivolous, whereas men are sober and practical and reasonable. Not only that, but of course, the women's clothing is often just physically quite cumbersome. They're long and full skirts that's hard to move around it.

23:21There's an ad going around on TV of some woman getting a corset tightened and it looks like torture basically. Right. So corsets were – there was a time when what's called tight lacing was in fashion and they'd have to – it was hard for the women to breathe. The corset was actually a really necessary part of traditional women's clothing because it provided support for the rest of the stuff she had to wear. So there's a sense in which it wasn't optional given that the woman was expected to wear a big skirt with lots of layers. It's very heavy, neat support. So women started to try to push back against that.

23:58The name Amelia Bloomer is probably familiar to a lot of people, but she was a feminist who tried to develop kind of a woman's pants that would be acceptable according to social mores, but also pants and easier to move around in. And it got a lot of press and it became popular women's fashion, but for about six months. And then it got ridiculed out of existence. And people said things like, well, soon next women will be smoking cigars and they'll be the ones proposing marriage to men. And the society is going downhill because of this. So it took a long time for women to get a streamlined, kind of modern type of clothing similar to men.

24:40And they're still struggling in many ways with these highly gendered expectations. So another related to this is the expectations in the workplace. And you've written about, I think it's called the Midtown uniform. Right. And for those of us who don't know about the, tell me about the Midtown uniform and why it's significant to you. Yeah, so the Midtown uniform, there's an Instagram site. And they'll take a picture of people in Midtown Manhattan or a financial district. And all the men are wearing exactly the same thing. They're wearing like a Patagonia fleece with a button down collar shirt, a pair of khakis and a pair of loafers.

25:17And you'll see it, you know, all these men wearing. And so the question is, what's going on? It's not a dress code. And in fact, it's what happened when the investment banks got rid of their dress codes and said, wear whatever you want. But they all gravitated toward this particular outfit. And it shows the power and the importance of fashion. There's a certain kind of reverse snobbery to it because, you know, the financial analysts are the ones that don't need to wear a suit. So they're higher status. But there's also a real fear that's reflected there. You don't want to show up wearing the wrong thing.

25:57You still need to look like you're a professional. So they've all gravitated toward this uniform. So speaking of uniforms, in order to make our conversation complete, I did want to address, I think, an important issue, which is I know people who go to school, grammar school, little kids, who wear uniforms. And it's a good thing, arguably, because these are people who might be very poor. And so now they have two or three outfits that they can wear every day. They can rotate them in the wash and everything. And so in some ways, this takes pressure off the kid from having to spend the money that perhaps their family doesn't have to kind of show their status, show their ability to.