Arsenal survive West Ham scare as Neville hails ‘title-winning’ moment

0:00Well, hello everybody, it's the Gary Neville podcast. Amid a certain amount of emotional exhaustion at the London Stadium, off the back of a heart-thumping, gut-wrenching football match, at the end of which, Arsenal are two games away from being the champions of England, Gary, but, I mean, what a tale to tell.

0:23Gary Neville:Yeah. I don't know where you start really other than the fact that there is always a game that goes down in folklore when you go on to win a Premier League title where the emotions, the rollercoaster the ups and downs of just thinking you've lost it, you've won it you've lost it again, you've won it again and from the David Reyes save to the Trossard goal to the disallowed goal for West Ham at the end That was 10 minutes that Arsenal fans will never forget. There are Arsenal fans who might be in their senior years who remember 89, who remember the drama and the thrill of what happened at Anfield that night.

1:08Gary Neville:And obviously there were big moments at Old Trafford with Viltord and Overmars back in the day where they won titles. But that will be right up there with them. It can never match 89, I don't think, because that was just so special. But, yeah, if they go on to win it in a couple of weeks' time, they will have been through the mill today. But there's always, I mean, I said partway through the second half, there's always one like this. And I think it had all the hallmarks of a title-winning half. The keeper's saved. Let's just hang on that for a second because the keeper's outstanding and he has been outstanding all season.

1:43Gary Neville:He did his job brilliantly today. but your keeper will need to make a huge one-on-one save at some point in a title winning running where almost like i said time stands still and it's like and you're goosebumps and you're almost like you can't believe that that's all happened in probably one or two seconds in total but it felt like forever for me it just felt like oh it's here and it was a young it was Son against Ortega a moment a couple of years ago obviously Arsenal were on the wrong end of that and so many more, Gundogan at the back post against Villa I think and obviously Aguero's, these moments that just sort of come, Steve Bruce against Sheffield Wednesday these sort of moments come through today to me and there's probably a load more but that Raya save was the start of it that's where you're thinking right okay I used to say this thing when it's happening you know you could smell a title when it's happening because things like that happen.

2:43Gary Neville:And these Arsenal players have never won a Premier League title before, but if they ever listen to the Gary Neville podcast, which I doubt they do, something's happening. Something's just happened out there today that you can't put down to skill or anything other than you're just looking up there and thinking everything went right for us. and then they score the goal. A bit of quality, a one-two between Declan Rice and Odegaard. And I have to say, Odegaard, when he came on, was very important because when everything around you is really fast and it feels like there is a fire burning, you need someone who's cold.

3:26Gary Neville:And I thought Odegaard actually provided some real composure in the last 15 minutes. I thought he was really important. Just someone who just makes the game slower, who just gets the control of it, who plays that final pass with the right pace, to the right angle, to the right foot, and he did it perfectly. And then the drama of all dramas. We think Arsenal have lost it. We think West Ham have scored. Manchester City fans at home are celebrating. Tottenham fans are thinking, oh, no. And Darren England, it's all eyes on him. we actually at the start don't know. I mean, one thing at the start was, was it over the line?

4:09Gary Neville:That was the thing that I think I was thinking. But it looked over the line from me and Declan Rice, as it turned out, was way behind the line. But then we see, obviously, a VAR check for a foul on the goalkeeper. And I think that's the biggest moment in VAR history in the Premier League. And for those who maybe, and there are a lot who aren't fans of VAR, and maybe rightly so but tonight it could have just made Arsenal champions and it could have got a decision right that wouldn't have been right and I was wondering whether Darren England had the courage had the nerve to overturn and what was he going to do in this moment I have to say we get the luxury and I wish all fans at home and I wish all fans in the stadium got the luxury of VAR of being able to hear them because to be fair he was composed, he was walking through it, he was talking to the referee, he was talking to obviously his compatriot, his colleague who was sat next to him, and he walked through it perfectly, he checked everything around it, there was a little foul by Declan Rice behind, I think that was maybe after the Raya foul, and just the fact that Pablo just had his arm, if Pablo would have been jumping like this, I think with leverage as a defender, as an attacker would do, then I would have said no problem I think that he should be entitled to go for it but he didn't, he just had his arm there and he wasn't looking at the ball, he wasn't looking to play the ball and he was looking just to sort of impede the goalkeeper and he left his arm in that sort of location for a second or two and I think that is the problem if it's just one of those where you're sort of just going up as a sort of like a movement then I think maybe that's something that he would have got away with but that prolonged lasting sort of arm across the sort of what would be this position here of Raya to me has to then call it and Darren England made the right decision and Chris Kavanagh gets called over to the VAR screen and Arsenal breathe the biggest sigh of relief probably that those fans have breathed for a long long time From a human perspective for Darren England under immense scrutiny and we don't often spend a lot of time bigging up these guys indeed they take a lot of stick.

6:29Darren England was the bloke probably at the centre of the lowest point in the history of Premier League VAR. I don't know, these are football fans, they don't really care. They care whether their team wins or not, ultimately. But you've got to feel some human warmth on his behalf because what an extraordinary moment in his professional life.

6:52Gary Neville:I mean, you're talking about the Luis Diaz incident, Tottenham Liverpool a few years ago, which was obviously a shocker and it was a massive low point. and I thought your line was a great line that the moment that he was experiencing he may still be experiencing it now because he'll be waiting to see the fallout of the decision and what the reaction is so what we say on Sky what the sort of match of the day will be on tonight and the other channels will obviously all have opinions and talk sport and all the other channels and I'm mentioning them all because they'll all be assessing this decision but if they see it like I saw it He got it absolutely spot on.

7:31Gary Neville:And you made a brilliant point that that was the most pressurised decision that he'll get. And he's got an FA Cup final coming up. He won't have anything in the FA Cup final that can compare with that. Because the title is there in that moment. It's in the hands of the officials. But that's what VAR was brought in to do. To correct wrongs. To right wrongs in big moments. Where the players, and I remember we lost a title one year to Chelsea where Didier Drogba was offside. and we probably may have deserved to lose the title overall to Chelsea that season, but we did lose that game at Old Trafford.

8:05Gary Neville:Didier Drogba was offside, and if we'd had VAR, we potentially could have been champions. And then maybe Chelsea would have had decisions earlier in the season as well that they would have had overturned. So I'm not looking for Chelsea fans to re-referee and look back in history, but you do feel really hard done to. And we didn't want, as players, titles being decided by referees. We wanted there to be accuracy. And there are obviously arguments against it with what's happened with VAR and the introduction of it and the slowing the game down and sometimes them not getting the decisions right. But today was a big, big moment for VAR, I think.

8:42Gary Neville:It was a big moment in the sense that, I mean, Arsenal, what would they have been thinking tonight if that had not been overturned? They would have been thinking we'd been wronged. So for me, yeah, it was a huge decision, a big moment for Darren England, a big moment for Chris Kavanagh because he starts to go over. and see it through, which they obviously mainly do. But, yeah, I mean, what a big moment for Arsenal. I mean, the rollercoaster of Raya save, scoring the goal, conceding the goal, and then back up to the VAR decision, overturning it, is a monumental swing in eight minutes, nine minutes of a football match, and completely and utterly draining.

9:19I have to say I'm exhausted. Did Arsenal play well today?

9:25Gary Neville:Arsenal play well today. Does it matter whether Arsenal play? Well, it doesn't matter. At this stage of the season, it actually doesn't, to be fair, Peter. It only matters if you get over the line. I thought they started the game really well. I thought the first 15, 20 minutes, they were really positive. I thought they had something going down this side with Trossard and Calafiore. They had something going on the corners and the set pieces. They were playing it forward. And when you've got a team that are at the bottom at the start of a match against a team at the top, it can be their weakest moment.

9:54Gary Neville:but if they get through it, they start to grow and start to get encouragement and that's what happened. And there was a big moment in the first half. And look, Mikel Arteta, who, this is a game changer for Mikel Arteta. I mean, obviously winning the Champions League is huge, but it will not give him the credibility that a Premier League title would have given him. It absolutely will not. You have to win a Premier League title, I think, to get the credibility as a manager where he's been in an endurance test, a marathon against Pep Guardiola, and he's got to come out on top in one of these sort of what would be clashes to see this true credibility.

10:32Gary Neville:Of course, you'll get plaudits and you'll be a legend if you win the Champions League with Arsenal, but if you win a Premier League title, I think within the industry, within the managerial sort of what would be landscape, you go on to a completely different level. And he got a little bit lucky today, Mikel Arteta, and it's not for me to start telling Mikel Arteta how to coach a football team or how to make substitutes, but sometimes it's just glaringly wrong. First of all, Ben White hangs his leg out and I think I made the point on commentary. By the way, I'm going to tell a story now. I actually have done what Ben White did.

11:09Gary Neville:I did it in training and I went out for a drink on a Saturday night, which I never did, ever. But we didn't have a game for 10 days. It was the right moment for me to go out and have a drink on a Saturday night. And I actually did my medial ligament in training on the Monday morning. And I went in for a challenge, and I can't remember who it was with. And if you go in for a challenge, a block tackle, and you just hang your leg out away from your body like that, and you lean back a little bit, you'll get that rock of your sort of knee, and you'll basically, particularly if someone goes in solid, so you have to lean into it and go really in strong, put your power forward, and really go like, you have to really block and sort of make sure you set your thigh, you set your core, you make sure you lean forward and everything if you just do that and hang your leg out you've got a good chance you'll do your medial ligament and Ben White did that and he'll regret that because that could seem out of a World Cup we don't know, we haven't got the diagnosis yet but they're usually four to six week injuries which would be obviously a big problem for Ben White in terms of not just a World Cup but a Champions League final and a title running let's hope it's not that bad but that type of injury comes from that challenge and then Michal Arteta brought Zubimendi on and I remember I think it was our director said Zubamendi's coming on because they sometimes get the nod from the floor manager down beneath don't they from Bretts down there and I was like Zubamendi's going and I went okay well I've never seen Miles Lewis Skelly play right back that was my immediate response I was like and I went down to our stats and research team and said has Miles Lewis Skelly ever played right back and they went well there's no evidence of him ever playing right back I'm thinking well Calafiori must go over to right back then in my head.

12:49Gary Neville:I didn't say that, but and then he went and put Declan Rice at right back. And straight away I thought, no. No for a number of reasons. One is, I think you're taking the energy out of midfield. Secondly, I think you're disrupting two positions rather than one. So if you bring Muscara on at right back, you're just disrupting the defence. You're not disrupting the defence and the midfield. And the big thing is, you cannot take Declan Rice out of central midfield. Now, I know Roy Keane played in the early parts of his United career when Paul Ince was there, I think, a few games at right-back. And Steven Gerrard, believe it or not, I think played a few games at right-back as well.

13:27Gary Neville:But in the early parts of his career, you can't move Roy Keane and Steven Gerrard in a game of this magnitude out of central midfield. They are forces of nature. You can't move Declan. I'm not giving Declan Rice the same sort of level yet as Roy Keane and Steven Gerrard, but he has that level of influence on Arsenal. and when Declan Rice went to right back it didn't only do the things that I've just mentioned from an Arsenal perspective I reckon those West, well I'm absolutely certain those West Ham players on the pitch Somerville will have thought, oh Declan Rice not played here before, doesn't know the position I think the midfield players Fernandes and Socek will have thought, I've got Zubamendi and Myles Lewis-Skelly rather than Rice I'm really happy in here and also from a defensive point of view you're taking away Declan Rice's sort of energy So West Ham all of a sudden start to get space, they get room.

14:17Gary Neville:The midfield looks a little bit more vacated. And it was a really, really poor decision. And I'm comfortable to say that, I think, because Mikel Arteta accepted it was a poor decision by the fact he corrected it 15 minutes later at half-time. So he knew it was a poor decision. And I don't think he can sort of try and sell that, oh yeah, I was always going to do it just until half-time. It was just a really bad decision. so at half time then it further exacerbates by the fact that he has to take Califiori off who I think is again I'm using the word force of nature but down this left hand side I mean he's not Maldini by any stretch of the imagination Califiori let's be really clear but you understand the sort of similarities I'm sort of pointing toward he's got that athleticism about him that when he runs forward it's very difficult to stop you then put Myles Lewis Skelly at left back which he's not played for I mean he's played there Of course he has, but you've taken him out of midfield now.

15:12Gary Neville:So you end up with Rice and Zubamendi, which wasn't as effective in the last few weeks. That's why we've ended up with Arsenal playing Miles Lewis-Skelly and Rice. And you've ended up then having to make another substitution. So it just, yeah, exacerbates the situation. And he was always chasing his substitutions. And then towards the end, when he would have had a substitution left if he got the first one right, he would have brought in Capier on for Miles Lewis-Skelly at left back, I'm sure, and had a tall back four. but he couldn't do because he'd used all his subs. The good one he brought on was, oh my goodness, Urdegaard.

15:46Gary Neville:Because Urdegaard was a game changer out there for Arsenal. He really was. He came on today, he took that captain's armband off, Bukayo Saka, and he really did deliver in that last 15 minutes. Not just with the goal, just his moments of just basically sort of bringing a level of sort of class into a game, which was really poor quality. and so yeah for Mikel Arteta you asked me the question did Arsenal play well today no the most important thing is they won they got over the line how they got over the line who the hell knows in the end we don't even know ourselves but I have to say it was an up and down day for Arsenal fans but it was an up and down day for Mikel Arteta during the game with his substitutes is it conceivable they'll drop a point now or do they beat Burley and Palace are we done I think they'll ordinarily when this happens Arsenal beat I think City beat Palace I think Arsenal beat Burnley and I think Arsenal win it on the Tuesday night the 19th of May when City are at Bournemouth you're backing Bournemouth to take something from City by City not doing the job at Bournemouth look it can happen all sorts of different ways and Manchester City to be fair have got that ability to go right to the end but I think this is a hammer blow for City really.

17:07Gary Neville:They've got the game Wednesday against Palace, they've got the cup final against Chelsea next Saturday so they can win a domestic double which is a big achievement by the way and deserve some congratulations if they go on and do it and then they've got to go to Bournemouth on the Tuesday and I think that could just be maybe a step too far with how Bournemouth are right now and it's been Areola's last game at Bournemouth and just the fact they're a good side and the type of team, I call this today a dog of a game for Arsenal. It was a dog of a game, this. I think the game a week on Tuesday is a dog of a game for Manchester City and I think that's when it, in my mind, if you're predicting it now, I think Arsenal will win it without kicking a ball on that Tuesday night.

17:47Interesting, we'll see how that plays out. What about West Ham? How do they come back from here? They've got to go to Newcastle and then they've got a home game here against Leeds, who, by the way, are now safe, which affects the dynamic of their game at Tottenham tomorrow, of course, all of that. But essentially West Ham have two wins, would take them to 42 points and that still might not be enough. Can they win the last two off the back of what they've just been through here?

18:09Gary Neville:Yeah, I mean Peter, that Trossard goal could be the, it's the most important goal in Arsenal's recent history in the Premier League. That Trossard goal is the most important goal potentially in Tottenham's entire Premier League history. Just, and the VAR decision at the end is potentially the biggest VAR call in Premier League history for Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Because they now tomorrow night have an opportunity to go four points clear, don't they? And that's a massive, massive incentive to go into that game. And they needed their great rivals to do them a favour today. I think Nuno knew at the end, when that goal was disallowed, that potentially that could be it.

18:54Gary Neville:I think he realised that he needed something out of the game. And if Tottenham do the job tomorrow night, I think that's it. I think they'll get over the line. I think it'll be too much for West Ham. And look, these are two great football clubs. Tottenham have flirted with, I say flirted with relegation. They've flirted around the bottom four or five of the league in the last couple of years. West Ham have done it over a number of years and sometimes had successes, but sometimes they've moved up the league. Quite often they've been fighting relegation in the last, is it 14 years? Did you say that?

19:26Gary Neville:they've been in the Premier League but they've had quite a few relegation battles along the way haven't they and it'll catch you at some point it will catch you at some point and I think that I'm asking before the game what is the financial stability of West Ham right now to be able to go down what happens have they got the muscle to be able to keep Nuno keep most of these players together because that team there today with those three centre backs those two wing backs you know the quality they've got with Boeing, Castellanos, Pablo, Somerville, Solchek and Fernandes. If they can keep the majority of those together they'll come back up again.

20:07Gary Neville:But if someone comes and pinches Boeing, pinches Somerville, pinches Fernandes, before you know it you're into sort of the realms of oh what's going to happen. So yeah it's a really important period and I never like talking about the teams going down I'm not talking about them. I never liked the idea of teams getting relegated because it's desperate. But I will be happy this year that two different clubs are going down and came up. Leeds and Sunderland are going to stay up and I think we needed that sort of rot of the same teams going up and down to break. We needed that to change. So I'm really happy about that.

20:49Gary Neville:And it was always going to mean that one of the clubs that maybe have been more of a stalwart in the Premier League are going to go down. but actually it needs that it needs a Tottenham to go down it needs a West Ham to go down to demonstrate that the competitive element of the Premier League at the bottom is still there so yeah unfortunate for West Ham fans they've been through a rollercoaster today but I do think that tomorrow night look Leeds might be free as a bird tomorrow night and just play beautifully they came to Old Trafford a few weeks ago under pressure we were there on a Monday night and they played absolutely incredibly to go and beat Manchester United 2-0 so they've got it in them but will tonight Leeds United go to bed and go just relax and wake up in the morning just that little bit more chilled and just stick a little bit more extra milk on your cereal a little bit more cereal in there maybe have a bacon sandwich you know what I mean it sounds crazy but you just they won't do I'm sure but you know the idea of just just relaxing because it's a it's a battle it's a massive event for these clubs to stay in the Premier League that come up from the Championship and Daniel Farker when were those games against Chelsea and Liverpool and Manchester City in a week was it November October November was it and I was at two of those games and the writing was on the wall for him so for him to come out of where he was is a brilliant sort of performance from Leeds and from the manager and so yeah tomorrow night West Ham United Premier League status I think is in the hands of Leeds a Leeds United that are now safe and that isn't helpful.

22:22Gary Neville:I think that goal at the end would have meant Leeds would have had to have gone and sort of got something tomorrow night, which would have, is that right, Peter? Yeah. Which means that there's just something, there's an edge on it for Leeds, whereas that edge is now not there for Leeds. And what you're actually asking for is the Leeds players to be exactly the same as they were if they were under pressure. And that's difficult enough. If you've already won the league, I'll just transfer it to the top. If you've already won the title, you step off it. If you've already saved relegation, you just step off it.

22:52Gary Neville:So I'm not just accusing lead players tomorrow night, I'm just stepping off it. Villa last week, when they sort of thought that they were okay and that they could concentrate on the Europa League game, they just step off it in a game against Nottingham Forest. So those things naturally do happen. On West Ham, you mentioned the players, the top players who might go, it's hard to imagine Jared Bowen playing in the Championship, isn't it? Almost certainly. But what about the manager? Because there's been a bit of a narrative this week, the stories have begun around West ham folk reportedly saying whatever happens Nuno please stay and it's a pity for them of it's more than a pity but they appear to be on the way down not confirmed him having created a little bit of something there's been a vibe here in recent weeks they you know that they don't today they didn't necessarily look like a relegation team how important for them that he is convinced to stay do you think he's the right sort of guy to have yeah whatever they need to do to keep him they should keep him because what that will do is stabilize things.

23:53Gary Neville:It will stop the domino effect of, well, if you're losing the manager, you lose the best players. The rest of them then that are still left have got excuses and the fans become demotivated. So if you're an owner of a club that goes down, what you want to do straight away is hang on to your manager if he's the one that's not taking down, which Nuno hasn't. So he's the one that basically I think has given them hope. and then what you probably have to do is go to a Boeing, a Somerville, a Pablo, a Castellanos, a Socek, a Fernandes and say, OK, I need 12 months from you. I need us to get back up. This great club and these fans, these 60 ,000 fans that will come and watch us, can't be in the championship for more than one year.

24:38Gary Neville:And you're part of the problem, guys, in this last 12 months. You're the ones that have basically contributed to taking us down. I get the fact that ultimately we all take responsibility. collective efforts and collectively we lose and we win together. But you're part of this and you try and basically stabilise everything and particularly I think Bowen and Nuno would be the two big things that you'd look to sort of hang on to. Now, that's why I asked the question about the financial stability of the football club because if you need 70 or 80 million all of a sudden just to stabilise the club financially, then they're going to have to lose a Fernandes or a Bowen or two.

25:12Gary Neville:You know what I mean? So that's the thing I don't know about West Ham right now, is what is the underlying financial situation and what have the owners got left in muscle to be able to keep a Bowen, a Fernandes and others that I think would be hiked off them by other clubs? These days, please correct me if I'm wrong, but these days they don't stay where they go down, do they? I mean, West Ham fans, for instance, of a certain generation will remember when West Ham went down in the 70s, their Jared Bowen was Trevor Brookings. and Trevor Burkings stayed and came back up Yeah but did Newcastle go down?

25:46They did keep a few

25:47Gary Neville:Who stayed at Newcastle and I think Newcastle fans absolutely loved him I can't remember who it was now but Newcastle went down didn't they and I think that they kept a couple of players that sort of said I'm going to get the club back up so I think that you're right I mean ordinarily Bowie won't want a year in the Championship and he'll want to basically play in the Champions League and in Europe but he's also I think he's a solid lad you know he's he's from this neck of the woods well not originally but he's married into this neck of the woods yeah but I mean he's almost like tied to the club it feels like he's wedded to the club doesn't it it's almost like he's like one of those if he left it wouldn't just be pleasant for him I don't think he'd be getting cheered back like Declan Rice potentially you know what I mean I don't know I just look at it and think oh he came from Hull he was at Hull wasn't he he was at Hull yeah I mean he's a Herefordshire man yeah yeah so just I just but it feels like he is West Ham you know what I mean it just feels like he is look let's see what happens I don't know the financial strength of the owners I don't know what's going to happen but Nuno I think absolutely is the first person you've been knocking on the door and saying look commit and let's get this announced by the way in the next week the minute we go down if we do go down Nuno stays is the first thing you want to be saying to fans so that you can say right okay don't demoralise them even more than what being relegated would do so let's finish on Arsenal because they're the top headline in 1999 you were chasing the title and the European Cup as it happens you were chasing the FA Cup as well they're not but you know how it feels you know how the next fortnight feels for Arsenal so just finish by telling us that yeah we were we had such momentum Arsenal have got such momentum right now beating Atletico Madrid over two legs City dropping points at Everton winning today in the way in which they have.

27:38Gary Neville:Winning today in the way in which they have is far more special than winning the game 3-0. You'd love to win games 3-0 so you're comfortable, but winning that type of game builds your confidence, your resilience, your momentum more than anything else. They should be absolutely in dreamland tonight, these Arsenal players. They should be unstoppable. They should be absolutely unstoppable. Nothing should be able to stop them now. There should be no obstacle that you could put in front of them that they wouldn't be able to just get out of their way. Because they've got past Atletico Madrid. They're in a Champions League final.

28:15Gary Neville:They've got through a game like this, their last and toughest game, that we looked at and thought, it's a horrible game. And they've still got a job to do in the last two, but I just don't see how you can't be unstoppable. And then you get to the final of the Champions League, and they've somehow got to think about their defensive ability and strength and how can they over 90 minutes beat a team that are better than us? They are. You can't get away from that. PSG are a better team than Arsenal right now. They've demonstrated that over the last two seasons by winning a Champions League and getting to a final again.

28:50Gary Neville:Back-to-back finals is some level of performance. So Mikel Arteta, but it gives him, is it 10 days, two weeks to be able to prepare? Less than that. Is it 31st, is it? Yeah, it's the week after the final. but he's got two weeks from now he's got a week after the end of the final he's got a week to prepare to think about how he can become not only legends of the club by winning a title to win Arsenal's first Champions League and in a season where they win the Premier League for the first time in 22 years I mean you're talking about this is a game changer today for Mikel Ateta and the Arsenal players winning this and the Champions League puts them on to a different level and that's going to be tough because they're playing against a team who are absolutely stunning.

29:37Gary Neville:Absolutely stunning. But it's 90 minutes of football. But what a lot they have to look forward to. And it felt like the right moment for us. For now, it feels like the right moment for me for Arsenal to win a league. It doesn't quite feel like the right moment for them to win a Champions League. It feels like PSG could be the right moment for them to win back-to-back and for Enrique to put himself up there with the godlike managers that have done this. It feels like more that than maybe Arsenal winning a double but it doesn't really matter if Arsenal were to lose in that final and win the Premier League I would still say it's a sensational season and if they were to go and win the Champions League and the Premier League double it would be a yeah I mean that's putting them into a different stratosphere of sort of what would be credit and belief and legacy but we still shouldn't forget about Pep Guardiola he might still have something to say but it does feel like now it's Arsenal's.