Neville and Carragher on Man Utd's shock 2-1 win over Liverpool | Why have Mo Salah and Van Dijk had shaky starts to the season?

0:00Peter Drury:Welcome everybody to the Gary Neville podcast which this time has a perhaps slightly reluctant guest in Jamie Carragher. We come to you from Anfield off the back of Manchester United's first Premier League win here for very nearly a decade. I was always sure I was going to start with a winner so Gary, this time it is you, perhaps improbably. Why did Manchester United win?

0:22Gary Neville:Well, look, we'll come back to that because I always think that we've been so critical of United over the last few years. and this is one of the most famous victories that we've seen. Not expected. And I want to take us back probably to an hour and a quarter, an hour and a half before the game when those teams came through. And not just me, but when I saw the team, I thought, we've got no chance. And I had three or four texts from United fans saying, oh my God, Casemiro and Bruno in midfield. Maguire and De Ligt at the back. You know, the pace of Liverpool, honestly, the energy in midfield of Liverpool and the legs.

0:55Gary Neville:And with Casemiro having played two games in the international break for Brazil and obviously travelled from Asia, you're thinking, how can that be right? But that was pre-match. I have to say, within a minute, that had gone because it was a brilliant moment for United, a really good bit of play from Ahmad, slipping it into Embermo. And that just got them off on the right footing. And then from that moment in, they were really resilient. They were competitive. They defended set pieces well. They looked dangerous on the counters. I thought the front three were really good. I thought he managed the game really well Ruben Amirim in terms of looking at Casemiro after an hour Amad after an hour at wing back thinking okay let's get some legs on there let's get some more defensive stability at wing back let's get Ugarte on for Casemiro because he has had those two trips so everything seemed to go to plan and Ruben Amirim managed the game really well and the most I think I think the most pleasing thing is that they've won having Liverpool equalised because when Liverpool equalised you thought this is going to be the Alamo, the kitchen sink, the lot, and Liverpool are going to go and get a winner.

2:01Gary Neville:But there's something just before, I thought United would score a second. There was something about that Liverpool team that didn't have enough defensive mindsets on the pitch, and I just thought United are going to do, and they did literally within a minute of that happening. So look, they had a bit of luck, you need a bit of luck. The goalkeepers made some good saves, they've hit the post three times Liverpool, but I actually think United deserve what they got today because they applied themselves to the game properly. That was a proper sort of effort that they put in there, and that's not always been the case over the last 10 years in those games that we've seen Liverpool beat United.

2:31Peter Drury:OK, Jamie, so why did Liverpool lose?

2:35Jamie Carragher:Listen, Liverpool are not good enough defensively right now and every team that come up against them feel like they can score goals and create chances. Now, Man United's record here over the last 10 years is not just a defeat. I think they've only scored three goals, I think, in nine or ten games here. But obviously, you get the goal early on, we can get into that. obviously look at Virgil van Dijk, but Manchester United looked threatening every time they went forward. They had real big chances in that first half and it feels like it happens every game. And I keep going back to the Newcastle game because Newcastle United, I think, scored a couple of goals and had big chances with 10 men.

3:12Jamie Carragher:And whether we talk about the balance not being right now, Florian Wirt hasn't played in the last couple of games, whether these players are a team who don't actually want to do the work without the ball, it's all about getting on the ball, and getting people between the lines. Listen, it's something we'll look at tomorrow, again on Monday Night Football. But yeah, just... Listen, it could have gone the other way. Liverpool had big chances in the game. But when I was speaking about what I felt Liverpool look like in the early weeks of the season, I feared this happening because of the way the games were going and scoring last-minute goals.

3:48Jamie Carragher:And it almost feels like once that invincibility's gone, a little bit with Man City last season where you think every team feels like they've got a chance and something just come to me then when we were talking and I was thinking about that was, I remember playing Arsenal here and beating them 2-1 the invincible team and I think they'd lost the game before maybe at Old Trafford and that team, just once they'd lost one they just went on this run of losing games because everyone just got this belief they could go and beat them at the time, as I said it happened to City last season and it feels like Liverpool feel now have just lost that sort of cloak of invincibility last season they went months without losing the game and then once they've lost one they're chinking their armours there and it just feels like every game they go into now the opposition have got real belief they can score goals

4:35Peter Drury:You referred to it that sort of famous night, the first night here against Bournemouth when you had that great exchange that everyone so loved with Arna Slott about your worries around the team and how everyone was how do you reflect on that conversation now in the context of what you've seen since and especially today. All of those substitutions when Liverpool were chasing the game were, for the neutral, and I'm the only neutral here, were thrilling, you know, really thrilling. But I wonder what that made you feel in your gut.

5:02Jamie Carragher:I mean, I thought it was a little bit early to go, so gunko. And I also felt a little bit vivares playing central midfield. You're thinking, get them sort of higher up the pitch. But Liverpool got back into the game. And listen, I don't really know where the corner comes from if that had anything to do. but Man Utd's goals come from a set piece again you know and it's Harry Maguire heading it in where are my two big centre backs where are my big players dealing with that so I go back to that as well so I'm not quite sure that had something to do with it tactically Liverpool still had big chances at the end you know you think of the Gakpo header the one where a few of them dummied it as well so I don't think Liverpool actually lost this game necessarily because of the changes Arnaz slot made because I don't think United sort of counter-attacked and went through on goal or anything like that but listen the small margins right now whereas at times at the start of the season they were going for them they're now going against them and it just feels like every game goes to the wire and the reason I mention at the start of the season is and we had this little debate I never want my team to be described as the most entertaining team and this game being end-to-end and anyone can score no you like watching teams who do that and we're not your team you don't like your team doing that you want your team to be in control and very rarely this season have Liverpool ever been in control of a game of football.

6:16Gary Neville:I think the individual performances of Liverpool's defenders was really poor and decision-making. The left-back's not settled in. There's no point in me going over that again. I said on this podcast, I think three weeks ago, he plays like a 10-year-old left-back. He's all over the place. At right-back, Connor Bradley was okay today. I don't think he did anything particularly wrong, but Van Dijk, I've not seen Van Dijk as shaky as that. Now, sometimes when a player comes back from an international break, it's been him that's been holding it together, but he had one of his worst games today. He wasn't himself.

6:49Gary Neville:And I think if you stalwart your captain, your giant in the team, isn't actually playing well from the first minute, it does rub off on everybody as well. And he had that sort of, I don't know what he was doing on the first goal. He sort of hands, the good thing is he's in there now, turned up for the interview. So he's obviously, he's Liverpool captain and he's been one of the greatest centre-backs and is one of the greatest centre-backs in the world and one of the greatest centre-backs in Premier League history. But he's had a difficult day out there today. And then Liverpool in midfield just looked a little bit all over the shop.

7:19But look, come on to Salah shortly.

7:22Gary Neville:All of them are sort of just a little bit short of where they are. You know, Virts hasn't settled in. Let's just say it, Izak has not settled in quite yet. I mean, as a brilliant player, Mo Salah is well below his best. You've got three£150 million players there, whether they're£150 million in terms of how much Liverpool have paid for them or worth that just generally in terms of their world-class nature like Salah. You've got three players that are not firing as well. That doesn't half have a big impact. And when obviously Alisson's missing, Van Dijk's not at his best. It is a ripple effect through the team.

7:53Gary Neville:And United today, to be fair, they looked like they were dangerous on every single attack. I thought United could score too. I didn't stop saying it even when Liverpool scored and went to 1-1. I just thought, look, I don't feel Liverpool are safe here. I think United have got to go and get a second. And I thought they would get a second. I thought the ball from Bruno Fernandes, by the way, for the second goal was special. That was a brilliant ball into the box. It's a bad night for Liverpool. I thought after the international break, they would recalibrate and reset. You know, sometimes when you're a team that's won a title like they have, you sometimes need a break where you just say to the right, now, come on, kick back in, concentration, focus.

8:27Gary Neville:We're not going to give any goals away. But in a minute of this game, that goes out the window. So even if they have tried to reset mentally, after a minute, they're a goal down and they're thinking, oh and for United if you score here in the first half I always think you've got a chance because it does make this crowd nervous this crowd is a great asset and you nearly saw it being a great asset towards the end but it also can be a little bit of a pressure you know if obviously the away team score United scored early and it really gives them confidence and I thought I was really look there have been times where I've not been proud of United in the last five ten years because I think they've fallen well short in matches but I thought they showed a spirit and a heart today

9:06Jamie Carragher:is there something in Manchester United when I think of Amaran listen you know it's one result and we can't disguise it's been really poor since he's come in and in some ways it probably couldn't have got any worse in terms of the games they've won losing that cup final to Spurs even the start of this season but I just think twice he's come to Anfield I think he's been to Man City and won unfortunately I think they've been to Arsenal maybe once or maybe in a cup game or something and we talk about this system a lot and One of the reasons why I don't think it suits a club of Manchester United is because I don't think it's a system that puts you on the front foot and you can get after teams.

9:43Jamie Carragher:But maybe when you're the team who are not expected to go and win the game, it can be a difficult system to sort of break down once you get into that back five and that four in front. So we question that four in front at times. But when you're at home, the attacking players think, well, I should be up this pitch. I'm not really going to get back and tuck in in the defence. But Mason Mounts picked for that role today. and it is a difficult sort of nut to crack for any team. That's why Crystal Palace have joy because Crystal Palace are a team who are not seen as the team who've always got to take the game to the opposition.

10:14Jamie Carragher:They can sit there and more often than not, games that they go into, they're not expected to win or they're sort of, you know, a mid-table team and he's getting more out of them because of that. Maybe that's why he's done well in these big games, especially away from home, but in terms of going forward and being on the front foot, Manchester United scoring goals and winning games, that's why I think it will always hold them back this system

10:33Gary Neville:I thought United in these four games obviously Liverpool away Brighton at home, Forest away Tottenham away, I was thinking seven eight points is great, seven points would be par out of these four games now there's a real chance and they should be thinking to go and get ten points out of these four games, that would get them back up in I think to the top six and that's what I think they need this month but let's be clear what we thought before the game I thought if United lose here today which they're more than likely to do when I saw the team sheet I'm thinking Ruben Amarim is going to be going into that Brighton game under real pressure with Forrest and Tottenham to come this is a complete turnaround game but it has to be something that they don't go and sort of they can't get carried away with this now they've got a week before Brighton they have to go and beat Brighton next Saturday or else it becomes something that sort of lessens what's happened here today they've got a kickstart springboard from what they've done here today because to win at Anfield is special in any season.

11:32Gary Neville:This is a bloody tough place to play. To win here is the hardest ground, honestly. And to win here tonight, they should be really proud because it's a big achievement. But they've got to kick on from here.

11:42Jamie Carragher:I just listen, we're seeing pictures here, Harry Maguire, and of course you'll know I'm absolutely devastated with this result. But I think if anyone is going to get a winning goal here, and he almost got the winning goal last season, I must say, out of that dressing room I'm looking at, I'm probably pleased it's him because the amount of criticism that lad's taken. And that's the nature of being, at one stage, he was the captain of Manchester United, and Manchester United are a fantastic club and have huge standards. And of course, listen, it hasn't happened for him in terms of his price tagging coming to the club.

12:11Jamie Carragher:But that's something he'll always remember and he'll always be remembered for Manchester United fans for getting the winner at Anfield. So if someone was going to get the winner, I'm probably quite pleased because that lad has been through a lot and it can't have been easy what he's gone through over the years. And you know what? He always fronts up. He's always in that team. He could have moved a couple of times. You know, he can get away from the line, like go to a lesser club, you know, in the spotlight as much. But he hasn't. He's been there, you know, for Manchester United. He's there. He doesn't play every week.

12:40Jamie Carragher:So if it's going to happen, fair play to him.

12:42Peter Drury:Yeah, no, there is a lovely human element to that, Jamie. I'm glad you brought it up. And actually, Harry Maguire is an example of a player who could be scarred by the experiences he's been through. and the Manchester United team as a whole could be pretty scarred. I appreciate, even as a non-player, that scoring after a minute helps in terms of confidence. But didn't they look surprisingly confident today? Didn't the selection seem to work out? Didn't Kunier and Obermo and Mount work together?

13:08Gary Neville:Pete, absolutely. I thought the front three played well. I thought Casemiro and Fernandes in midfield probably had the best game that they could have had together. I think, honestly, I was really worried about that. I always worry when De Ligt's in that right channel with Maguire at centre-back I always think there's not enough pace in there but I thought there's a few problems with Gatpo in this first half but it was fine I think for Harry Maguire it was a really good day for him I think both De Ligt and him both won that central defensive part but like I say they've got to go from today and think right I don't think they should celebrate tonight in a sense of celebrating and thinking how proud you should be to win it but I hope as they get on that bus I hope there's a mindset of right come on, this is it, we're not going back there again we're not going back into that bottom half of the table they've just gone into the top half of the table I think to 9th and I think if they win next week, they've got to start thinking of pushing up the league because they've got to get to a point whereby there's stability at the club, the only way there's going to be stability is through winning football matches, so look, it's a great day for Manchester United I think Maguire and all of them should be proud of how they played they really did a good job here and yeah I was surprised at the levels they got to today but let's see it again next Saturday night

14:21Peter Drury:against Brighton yeah so from Liverpool's point of view Jamie and again we don't want to be it is only one game it's a very very big game but for Liverpool it's now of course four games um and they're a little bit off the pace nobody's saying they can't win the league anymore anything silly like that but it kind of brings a punctuation point it brings a a natural reflection I mean And what happens next with Liverpool? How do they improve from here?

14:47Gary Neville:Could you go Joe Gomez, right? And it sounds crazy. Sometimes we used to do this. Could you go Joe Gomez, right back, Robertson left back with Canati and Van Dijk and just say, right, OK, for a couple of weeks, we're going to bulldoze our way back into this league and basically keep clean sheets. Is there something in that?

15:01Jamie Carragher:Listen, I think that's probably something we'd have done in our day. I just don't think Arnaz slots that type of manager. I think he always wants to be the manager who sort of his team are making the play. They're on the ball. So he'd want a full-back to actually progress the ball forward. and be attacking, if you like, in terms of the team that he picks. That could be something maybe you do in a big away game, of course. But I think for Liverpool right now, because the games come so quick and fast, before you know, you're at Brentford Saturday night. You've got Frank's very big week, haven't you?

15:30Jamie Carragher:Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So when does a blip become a crisis? When is it something I'm gone? We are turning off the team who ran away with the league title last season spending£400 million in a summer. You know, so people can say it's early days and you're looking at different players. But when you spend that type of money and you're the champions, you're talking about really high expectations. And I keep going back to it felt like a Real Madrid summer. You know, that's what Real Madrid go and do. Go and spend the most money on the best players in the market in a summer. It's not Liverpool like that.

16:02Jamie Carragher:So it's very different Liverpool summer than we've probably ever seen before. And yeah, I'm worried for Liverpool in terms of not just the results. it's the performance as all seen so the games they've won they've never looked convincing and that's almost a bigger worry for me than the actual results that they're in right now

16:20Gary Neville:Just on Salah the interesting thing is obviously there's questions being asked about him whether it's his age whether it's his one season too many all the other stuff the strange thing in watching Salah is usually when a player is sort of getting to the year usually a player getting towards the end of his career what you notice is the physical decline and I'm not seeing a physical decline in him in respect of sort of like some of his sprints look quite sharp. He looks busy in the box. But just like crazy things like the ball comes to the back post, his technique on his kicking and his sort of crossing, that's the thing that looks well off.

16:55Gary Neville:So you look, there's a couple of moments there at the back post where you think, that's not Mo Salah. He had that chance where he sort of dragged it really uglily, like, you know, to the left of the post. You think, that's just his technique. Mo Salah could probably play when he's 52 and still have a good technique. so that's the bit that's surprising me is the technical bit I think Mo Salah

17:14Jamie Carragher:has declined physically in terms of when he first came it's the technical decline that we're seeing but what I would say is no I agree but even when Mo Salah's been at his absolute best he can have games where he looks technically poor he's one of those players who at times you think he's such a great player sometimes his performances and this is not this season this is over his time for Liverpool we all know as Liverpool fans and you put up with it because you think he'll score two in a couple of weeks he goes through these little runs now when he first came in he had blister and pace him and Mane, that's not there so much but he still had a sharpness about him I'm not quite sure that sharpness is still there

17:50Gary Neville:I still think he looks quite sharp

17:51Jamie Carragher:I'm not sure

17:53Gary Neville:I think he looks sharp in those little areas where you'd want him to look sharp in the last 18-20 yards of the pitch but as the ball comes to the back post on two or three occasions for instance the Vert's assist for him that would have been an assist at Chelsea and you think he's got to finish that. Today there's two chances at the back post. He's got to finish that. It's the technical aspect of his game that's letting him down at the moment for me more than the physical aspect.

18:19Jamie Carragher:Yeah, no, no. There's no doubt he can at times look not like a world-class, but he can look like an average player technically. I've said that before. That was at his heyday. He has lost something physically, but I do worry and I do think this is a real conundrum for the manager going for what you do. It was interesting you mentioned in commentary that he brought him off. Now, that's not the first. If you remember, Jürgen Klopp used to bring him off a lot. If he wasn't playing particularly well, Jürgen Klopp was not shy. So that shows you that in years gone by, Mo Salah could be having a poor game and he'd still get brought off, even if he had an extra little bit of energy or sharpness.

18:55Jamie Carragher:But I do think right now it's really interesting what the manager does. Because I think we're at the stage with Mo Salah right now where he shouldn't be playing every game. It shouldn't be a case of he's one of the first names on the team. sheet. It should be a case of, yes, he's in your best team. He plays in home games. Maybe you'd have to think about it. Liverpool have got two away games, one in Europe, one in Brentford. I don't think he plays in both of them. So I think these things have got to start coming maybe into the manager's head and maybe you have a little look at Fring Pong in an away game who can maybe help your fullback a little bit more defensively, but maybe give you a little bit of pace on the outside as we saw when he comes on.

19:31Jamie Carragher:So I think we're at that stage now where Mo Salah shouldn't be a guaranteed starter