Neville: 'Defeat was a reality check for Man Utd' | 'Leeds have secured their PL survival''

0:00Well, welcome to the Gary Neville podcast where we've watched another dramatic game in this Premier League season and there's been a few at Old Trafford as well, but one today that went the way of Leeds United.

0:11Gary Neville:Yeah, I mean, I think that's the big story here tonight. Before the game, I was looking at sort of West Ham yesterday or over the weekend and Nottingham Forest and thinking that they've got something going a little bit. It looks like they might just have enough to get out of it. Tottenham, we know, are in big trouble. come on to them in a minute and you're thinking Leeds could just get dragged down there they've got some decent fixtures but it's not been good but I thought they put a really good performance into that and I am I shouldn't be but I'm a lucky omen for Leeds United this season I've watched them three times watched them against Liverpool Chelsea Chelsea they win Liverpool they come back in a draw and beat Manchester United tonight so they've got seven points from nine in those three matches and every time I've watched them live they've been really good you know not just really good in the terms of their passion their commitment but the patterns the way in which their sort of system um they've got it worked out I mean I was there that I think that was the first full game against Chelsea that they played that five at the back I think they might have gone to it in the City game just before that uh on the Saturday so second half yeah second half so it was very early on in the days of the system but what I think the system look the reason I'm not a great fan of the system is because usually to find wing backs that can do the sort of equal attacking and defending bit is really difficult but I actually think Bogle and Goodmanson when they play they do it fantastically well and they go forward real energy and threat and it gives them a bit more solidity with the three and the Ampadu in front so I do think it suits them and I just think tonight first half I mean they were absolutely wonderful that is a performance that I don't think Tottenham are capable of and that's the scary thing for Tottenham not just the six points by the way that Leeds United have gone clear of them tonight but the actual performance levels that they've put in they're nowhere near that you watched Spurs yesterday against Sunderland and it's a a set of ingredients that don't go together a concoction of misfits, you know what I mean and yet you watch Leeds there tonight and there's a balance and there's a flow and they had to dig in in the second half and they found it difficult when actually Manchester United went to 10 men and they started throwing caution to the wind and Manchester United have got 3 or 4 really good forward players that can cause problems with Bruno Fernandes feeding them so yeah no shame in that but overall it was a wonderful night for them and I think that does secure Premier League survival for Leeds United this season because the confidence that they'll get from that I think is that the first time they beat Manchester United in the league for how long?

2:46Gary Neville:Away from home since 1981 45 years yeah I don't know about that match. I was live then. 1981, 45 years since Leeds have won here at Old Trafford. Obviously, they beat us in the FA Cup a few years ago. We'll not mention that. But yeah, they fully deserved it. They could have been 3-4, they'll up at half-time. The Tanaka one just before. I think Calvert-Lewin in the first couple of minutes where he slides in. I mean, Manchester United were absolutely awful in that first half, but that was made more awful by the fact that Leeds were playing really well. and Leeds are a team that are in the bottom four or five in the Premier League and to think that they've really come here and performed like that yeah, outstanding night for them those Leeds United fans that you can hear in that far corner they're going to enjoy that trip back to Yorkshire because a lot of them got their tops off never seen as many of them anymore without the tops on in Manchester I mean from a Manchester United point of view it's the fact it's Leeds United that will hurt the most about this game but as far as the league's concerned, their position it doesn't really harm them too much it was just an opportunity to probably cement Champions League football tonight Yeah, I'm not going to make excuses for Manchester United but I suspect that a combination of being undercooked just not playing for so long it doesn't feel like they've played for an age and even then I think they had a big gap before that so I don't know how many games they've played in the last couple of months, it's not a lot it's been a really strange period just generally, it doesn't feel like the fixtures are right and then I think maybe just Chelsea doing what they did yesterday maybe just made them think again, oh, we're okay.

4:23Gary Neville:You know, Chelsea are struggling. We're now seven points clear. You know, beat Leeds at home tonight. Let's just rock up at Old Trafford in front of 70-odd thousand. Let's enjoy ourselves. We're a couple of weeks off. Let's play and sort of go around them. And I don't know if I mentioned to you before the game, I mentioned it to them over there. When I saw the Manchester United team, I looked at it and thought, I wasn't sure about it. I just wasn't sure. Maybe, I don't know whether it was Kobe Mayan who not in there, whether it was Maguire not in there, whether it was the fact that, you know, Embermo wasn't playing, but it just didn't feel like it was a team that was going to connect together.

4:58Gary Neville:And maybe it is the Agati-Casemiro partnership in midfield, which Michael Carrick probably has to do because it's the two he's got and it's the hand he's been dealt. But it's not a partnership that is ever going to work. I mean, it's just not. Casemiro's been a world-class player and there were times tonight, to be fair, when he was driving the team forward and he scored a wonderful goal. So it's nothing against him at all. But Agarthe's been well shot since he'd come to the club. And if he's going to play alongside someone, he needs really a football player alongside him. So, because he's really sort of limited on the ball and I think he's not played for United for a long time.

5:32Gary Neville:Michael Carrick's not starting him in a game. So that means that your midfield's blocked in terms of play. You've then got, obviously, Seshko up front, who I think is more of a target man than someone who I think links. And I always think when you've got Ahmad, Mbermo, Cunha, Fernandes, there's a fluidity to it where there's a lot of movement. When Cescou plays, Manchester United are very different. He brings something different. You're thinking more about crosses or diagonal passes. And that's something that, you know, maybe was a consideration with Kobe Main, who not in there, that they thought they might go a bit more direct.

6:06The back four, that isn't a back four, really.

6:10Gary Neville:You know, Masraoui, Yoro, Martinez and Shaw. It is a back four, but they really struggled. I mean, Calvert-Lewin just sort of, his eyes lit up, didn't they, all night. He just fancied it. He just had the two centre-backs right where he wanted them. Look, the Lansandro Martinez one, it's not a massive... Well, I mean, they used to call him the Butcher of Amsterdam. Should he be called the Hair Puller of Manchester? I know in the referee's guidebook, it says hair pulls should be deemed violent conduct. It's not in the laws of the game, but it's in the guidebook for referees. I mean, I'm not saying it's not the equivalent of spitting.

6:46Gary Neville:It's not, but it's a little bit goes into that type of category that is something that you just don't do. You don't spit, you don't pull hair. They're just things that you know you get a red card for. And just speaking to Graeme Assault going off, it's a bit soft because it's a little bit of a thing, but it's a little bit like it's a technical red card. It's not a violent conduct. I mean, let's be clear, but it's one of those things that I don't think football players like as professionals. you don't pull someone's hair you don't spit at them it's that type of thing and yeah he was obviously going to get sent off the minute that it was spotted by VAR so it is what it is, so they go without him now for three games would that be three games for Martinez and they're still waiting to see how long Harry Maguire will be out for his red card, still waiting for a decision on that, how many games it will be so the back four didn't the back four wasn't good enough, let's be clear From minute one, they let balls get played in behind them, they had runners in behind them, they physically got out-muscled, they didn't look like they were connected.

7:45Gary Neville:The gaps, to be fair, between the back four and the midfield and the front players, which have been really good under Michael Carrick, the distances, that was missing tonight from sort of minute one. Leeds United could either play it in behind or they could play it through midfield, through Tanaka and through Ampadu. So they just didn't get anything right tonight, Manchester United. They've had a lot of time over the last few weeks where they've been able to get sort of what would be a pattern together. but what it does demonstrate is that when you take two or three players out of the team I mean I was looking at the bench before the game and I was thinking I was looking at a City bench yesterday and then you look at that Manchester United bench before the game and you're thinking they know they've got a lot of injuries but it just demonstrates a bit of a reality check tonight really for Manchester United it's probably Michael Carrick's most difficult game but overall they're still in a very good position seven points clear of Chelsea going to Stamford bridge at the weekend not to be complacent about anything but I think Manchester United will be okay and we'll get Champions League football but that just showed a little bit tonight of sort of how far they are away in some ways because you lose two or three four players out of the team and all of a sudden it looks a little bit awkward and a little bit clumsy and not connected and no combinations and I've liked a lot of what I've seen under Michael Carrick when they've had the likes of Mount with Fernandes and then Bermot and Ahmad and Cunha and then I think Cesco coming off the bench and providing that little bit of a battering ram type status i think brings something as well so tonight just the fact that they didn't have that ordinary spine of embermo of cobby menu with with casemiro and with maguire there it just felt that before the game i thought they weren't quite right you thought it could be a little bit awkward but i never expected that leeds united would play like that and neither did manchester united think that leeds united had that in them.

9:26Gary Neville:From a football perspective yeah, you've got no complaints if you're a Manchester United fan here tonight, you know you've been deservedly beat and still could have got back into it by the way because I think that they actually did well with 10 men, I thought that they fought hard and could have had actually a couple of goals. They were actually at their best when the backs were against the wall with 10 men and I think Michael Carrick will be proud of that bit, the fact that they demonstrated some character and some personality when really it could have been quite difficult and Leeds could have gone away in top counts and scored a third and a fourth.

9:55We're now for something completely different. We know Jamie Carragher in the Monday Night Football studio was picking his best central midfielders, the greatest central midfielders of the Premier League era. Asking you to do the same, Gary, and I want you to rank them. If you give us your five greatest Premier League central midfielders from fifth to number one. Starting with your fifth best.

10:19Gary Neville:Well, there's a couple of things to start with. The list that I got sent through who had the likes of David Silva on there and Kevin De Bruyne, and I would put, particularly Kevin De Bruyne, I mean, David Silva was wonderful. I'd put Kevin De Bruyne up there in some of the greatest Premier League players I've ever seen, but I wouldn't have him as a central midfield player. So I'm going to think more traditionally about players that I've seen as central midfield players that I believe have had the biggest impact and influence on the Premier League. You've played that position with dominance and with sort of skill and technical ability.

10:52Gary Neville:so the fifth on my list and I had a long list sent to me from our man this afternoon

11:03Gary Neville:in terms of influence and impact the fifth player that I'm going to choose is Rodri a Ballon d 'Or winner a treble winner multiple Premier League title winner Euros winner on three League Cups, an FA Cup obviously. An outstanding player. Plays that position wonderfully well. And he goes in. And look, I'm factoring in here influence, personality, skill, technical ability, what they've won. and in the particular way that he plays is he the best to have played in the Premier League? He's been the best in the world I mean that's why he won the Ballon d 'Or he's been the best in the world in his position up until that sort of knee injury and obviously he's had an unfortunate sort of break from the game and now he's come back and doing well but he was the best in the world for two, three, four years and miles ahead of anybody when he first came to the Premier League I actually wasn't convinced in that first season he looked a little bit sort of like a bit heavy a little bit not quite sort of mobile enough and not really anything like special at all.

12:20Gary Neville:And then all of a sudden, yeah, he just turned into a very special midfield player at the heart of a treble winning team, playing for Pep Guardiola and holding and knitting that team together. And there was a period where that sort of famous graphic wasn't the with and without Rodri graphic because he never used to lose a football match. So, yeah, I think just generally, I mean, he's been in the Premier League now how long? For five years. so I think if Rodri had been in the Premier League maybe for 10, 12 years that you'd be probably pushing him up into that sort of you'd be challenging the players that I'm going to name in sort of 1, 2 and 3 So what about 4?

12:55Gary Neville:Number 4 for me is Steven Gerrard Do you think Jamie put him at 4? I don't think so but I mean look there's reasons why I've put him at 4 I mean look to be in the top 5 in the central midfield one because he didn't always play central midfield Sometimes I feel that when he was at his best, you know, the best Liverpool team that I played against, I feel, was when he was playing as a number 10, when he was sort of driving forward. He was playing obviously behind Mascherano and Alonso for a season or two, connecting with Torres. And I thought he was excellent there. I thought some of the most danger that he caused us in our time was when he sort of played off that right hand side.

13:32Gary Neville:He played there for a season or two as well. And then towards the end under Brendan, he went very deep and played sort of in that 4-3-3. where he wasn't a central midfield player in a two. I'm sort of thinking there that he played deeper in sort of that quarterback role. And I think I can't remember who we had in front of him now, the two players. One was Jordan Henderson and the other... I can't remember. But yeah, so I'm thinking, you know, Steven Gerrard, a monumental player. Someone who I feel that if you were, again, a little bit like De Bruyne, I don't class... I mean, he was a central midfield player, more of a central midfield player than De Bruyne.

14:07Gary Neville:And that's why I'm not categorising De Bruyne in this competition because I don't think he's a central midfield player. I think he's more of a sort of what would be a right channel type player. It's more of a modern position and I think Steven, to be fair, at times played in different positions. So for me, I'm going to go Steven Gerrard, number four. Is it Coutinho you might have been thinking of? Maybe. Played in that three midfield. Sturridge, Suarez and Sterling. Yeah, yeah. It could be Coutinho and Henderson. Lucas Leiva was around that period. Anyway, we're going off point. Number three. so number three is the person who I say was the best football player that I ever played with at Manchester United but I'm talking about sort of generally measuring this from a point of view of impact in the Premier League and aura and presence so this player was the most beautiful football player controlled every single game for us and was the best player individually that I ever played with but he also had periods in his career where he played off the front in a sort of three or he played as a number ten and that's Paul Scholes he was an incredible player 11 time Premier League winner 2 times Champions League winner special player someone who I think when he finally went back into central midfield and played there for 6, 7, 8 years at the end of his career was so special and the reason I dropped him down in this list behind the two I'm going to name next is because he didn't play there all his career he sort of played there for most of the back end of his career and then he formed a brilliant player.

15:38Gary Neville:He was just so special. He's different. Those players just don't come along. And he controlled football matches. And I've always tried to explain when we've had this argument in the past between who's the best. To control a football match, is everything out there? Is everything? Not giving it away, switching play, making sure that you're stretching teams, making sure that you don't get counter-attacked on because you're not giving the ball away, making sure that when you're sort of trying to play out through lines, you've got a player who can sort of receive it and then jink around and put it around the corner and just someone who basically made the game glue together.

16:12Gary Neville:And you think about combinations and patterns in a football match. Paul Scholes enabled that for us. He enabled everything in that. So the likes of Giggs or Ronaldo or Bex or Wazza or whoever else it was, the reason they could do what they were doing was because they had this connection, this ability to have this sort of what would be mind reader of an intelligence that could connect the whole team together so for me yeah he goes as number three yeah and so that leads us to the top two I have a sneaky suspicion I know who are in the top two but what's your order? the next player that I'm going to say is the most influential midfield player the best midfield player in Premier League history is Patrick Vieira just because of what he did for Arsenal the presence, the spirit, the titles

17:15Is there a modern player like him? No They're not really like that type of You don't see that type of player as much anymore do we?

17:24Gary Neville:No, the top two I think to be fair are very different they're mountains out on the football pitch they're captains, they're leaders they're great football players they're the best defender in the team they're the best attacker in the team they're the people who stand up and say give me the biggest guy on corners they're the people who you feel safe when you've got in front of you I'm sure the Arsenal team when he was in that midfield felt like he was a giant and so for me Patrick Vieira goes in at number two in terms of what would be the all-time central midfield players just purely because of his presence and his great tackler, great runner, quick.

18:04Gary Neville:Couldn't get the ball past him, couldn't take him on one-on-one. Would get across to anything. Fantastic player. So when you come up against a player like Patrick Vieira, you need somebody in your team, I would suggest, who can stand up to in that respect. Who's your number one, Gary? Ugarte. No, the number one is Roy Keane. I don't think there's ever been a more influential football player in the Premier League, full stop. In fact, I'm absolutely convinced there's not. I've never seen anybody drive a team forward with the standards that he had. An incredible attacking player. I've said it again, similar traits to Vieira, but I think a level up when it comes to sort of, He was a goal scorer.

18:54Gary Neville:He's a good header of the ball in both boxes. He's a good tackler. He's a great runner and quick. Absolutely lightning quick, but with power. A good fullback. A good one-on-one defender. A good man marker in the box. Someone who had the ability to compose himself in the final third. Someone who could wrap passes through the lines into players like Dwight York or Eric Cantona or Paul Scholes or Wayne Rooney in the pockets in the number 10 positions. And that was really important in a different way than Paul Scholes would. Paul Scholes would do it in a very sort of, yeah, different technical type.

19:31Gary Neville:But Roy Keane would really just wrap those passes and always look forward and a great captain. So for me, yeah, he's the number one Premier League midfield player. And to be fair, I think if Jamie Carragher is selecting the number one central midfield player in Premier League history, you can't choose anybody else but Roy Keane, really. and I don't think many would. And do you think Roy's underappreciated in a global sense? You think of the European stage and those nights against the great European players of that time. Because the longevity, you've spoken about that in regards to Rodri. I mean, Roy did it for a far longer period of time and you think of Forrest as well.

20:09Gary Neville:Yeah, but maybe. Look, I don't know. I mean, obviously I think that what we tend to do in this country, I think because Roy played for Republic of Ireland and he wouldn't have played in the same tournaments or had the ability to play. I know he did play in tournaments, but he wouldn't have had the same ability to play in World Cups and European Championships and go as far as maybe the England teams did. And, you know, if you think that we got to quarterfinals in 96, in 2004, in 2006, and when you're playing on that world stage or in that European Championship stage for your country, and particularly with the way in which we sort of what would be build players up in England.

20:42Gary Neville:No, we do. We build players up, English players up. There's no doubt. I mean, there's no doubt Roy Keane got a lot of praise during his career, but he wouldn't get the level of praise that an English player would just purely because he wasn't playing for England. So I think that for me, maybe, no, they say that, don't they, about players like George Best, never played in a big tournament. Mark Hughes, you know, Ian Rush. Ryan Giggs. Ryan Giggs. You know, these great players who may be, you know, they've certainly influenced European football and Champions League football and they've had great careers in Champions League football but when you play in the World Cup and the European Championships maybe there's that little bit more sort of what will be magic dust sprinkled on you and particularly if you're English.

21:28Gary Neville:So I think there's an element of that but let me be clear Roy Keane is better than any single player that I ever played for with England in terms of central midfield player and the only player that I've put near him and to be fair he's very different is Gaza. You know, Gazza's absolutely unbelievable, but Gazza, a different type of central midfield player, who again sort of did that. And there's some brilliant midfield players that I've not got in this top five. Incredible midfield players. I mean, Paul Ince was an unbelievable midfield player and sort of find it hard to leave him out of the top five because of the influence that he had.

22:04Gary Neville:And there are others. There are others. There are some great players. Xavi Alonso, when he was at Liverpool, but he wasn't there long enough. Lampard Frank Lampard again I left Frank out because purely of the fact that if you said to me who's the sort of biggest goal scoring influence from midfield Frank Lampard comes into it but he was very much again I know that some of them have played in a three but I was looking for more of players that have played in a two and I don't know why maybe that's just my thinking of it you know the idea that sort of De Bruyne Lampard if you're talking to me about the biggest influence of sort of what will be attacking players who've played in this sort of area of the pitch and David Silva I'm going for it but I'm going for a different type I'm going for players who've played mainly in a two I know Rodri he's playing in a two at the moment with Bernardo Silva for City but he's sometimes played in a three but he's played always in central midfield he's not been sort of over on the right he's not been sort of in the pockets he's always been in that sort of position so I've just thought of it more traditionally in the five that I've selected Gerrard makes it because he did play in there at times but the reason he's not probably further up is because he did move around and flirt with the right side of midfield and number 10 in different positions so yeah they're the ones I'm going for I'm unequivocal and emphatic that it's Keane and Vieira when you talk about influence doesn't take away from the fact that the most talented player that I ever played with at United was Paul Scholes but when you talk about sort of Premier League and sort of wider influence of Premier League storytelling and narrative I think Keane and Vieira you can't really move away from them and I would always just have Roy Keane ahead of Patrick Vieira that may be because I played with Roy some would say if you're an Arsenal fan I don't think so I don't think so I just think he was just a little bit ahead of Patrick but you're talking about like you know the best and then a little you know you're talking about up here so you're not talking you're talking about Ronaldo and Messi of central midfield in sort of Premier League history type stuff, you know what I mean?

24:06Gary Neville:You're not talking about, there's no bad here, everything's good if you're that quality. And of your top five, you'd have played with and against four of them, and you've seen plenty of Rodri close at hand, so I think you're well placed to make these sort of judgments. Thank you, Gary. Yeah, and I also am not as biased as Jamie Redknapp. Sorry, Jamie Redknapp, Jamie Carragher, sorry. Sorry, Jamie Redknapp. Jamie Carragher. I'll repeat that line, I'm not as biased as Jamie Carragher.