Neville on Chelsea's dramatic win over Liverpool | Issues with Wirtz, Isak and at full-back for Arne Slot | Amorim not 'off the hook'

0:00Welcome along, thanks for joining us on the Gary Neville podcast. Today Gary and I have just been watching a very dramatic game at Stamford Bridge. What a finish Gary.

0:07Gary Neville:Yeah, incredible. A game that swung back and forwards a little bit. Chelsea definitely deserved it in the end. I think the problems that they had to contend with during the game with injuries, their intent in the last 15 minutes. I always think that football games are won by intent, teams that look like they want to win. I'm not saying Liverpool didn't, they obviously did, but I thought after they scored, I was really disappointed in their level of performance. A lot's been made of Liverpool's defensive work, and rightly so, but today, for me, that's not why they've lost this game. They've lost this game because in the last 15, 20 minutes, they're creative players, they're players in the final half of the pitch, the midfield players and the forwards, they were absolutely useless.

0:50Gary Neville:giving the ball away like you wouldn't believe I mean Gakpo down here Salah over on that far side the wastage Verts not knowing how to get into a game in the last 15 minutes when he was there for the taking and just sort of almost marking Casedo I was watching him quite a lot and yeah but Chelsea, honestly the way in which they kept going, they kept attacking the players they've lost during the game it was a brilliant win for them and it's been a tough week or two and I wasn't expecting that after Liverpool scored, I have to say. Did you feel in injury time that Chelsea were the only team who were going to win it?

1:26Gary Neville:You still, because of Liverpool and how they've been, think they're going to put that sort of sting in the tail, don't you? And they're going to burst the bloom. But I just felt as though the three in midfield for Chelsea, Lavia, Casado and Fernandes, they were running all over Liverpool's midfield and they were protecting that back four. I mean, Liverpool had so many opportunities to counter-attack and were wasteful. but I just felt Chelsea's intent you know they changed the whole front three Esteval comes on on this side they've got Gittins on on that side and then the boy in the middle I can never pronounce his name correctly Guiyou and you're thinking well Liverpool should be able to handle that and they should be able to spring off it and go and attack but Chelsea kept coming forward they kept coming forward they had so much intent so much positivity they dominated possession in the last 10 minutes they dominated touches in the box They dominated shots on goal.

2:17Gary Neville:They were by far the better team over the course of the whole game. Liverpool, not quite right. Don't think it's time to panic. But Chelsea, really, from where I'd seen them at Old Trafford a couple of weeks ago and obviously got beat last week at Brighton, that's a brilliant, brilliant turnaround going into the international break and they needed that because they've been obliterated with injuries as well. And this, you know, I've been to this stadium a lot. I've been and watched them here in Champions League winning seasons and title-winning seasons, but that atmosphere at the end was pretty special.

2:49And, I mean, you mentioned the Liverpool defensive reshuffle, which, as far as we know, was by design from Arnaz Lott, but Chelsea themselves lost their first-choice centre-halves today, and they themselves are reserve players, pretty much, and yet still managed to hold out for this win, despite all the reshuffle.

3:06Gary Neville:I think it's six centre-backs, isn't it, that Chelsea have lost, including the two that they lost during the game today, which they've ended up with Hato and Rhys James at centre-back. Which, you know, how Liverpool with Verts, Eketike, Isaac, Salah, Gatpo all on the pitch haven't gone and scored a second goal, you'll never know. But it's down to how they defended that four. They did really well, but also just the spirit of the players in front. They were fantastic. Liverpool's back four. I thought it was a disappointing day for Conor Bradley. Didn't have really much time to speak about him going off at half-time.

3:39Gary Neville:but that was Is that the right decision do you think though is yellow card? Yeah I think so yellow card but obviously they needed to get back into the game as well I mean Conor Bradley started the game I thought well in the first five minutes on the ball he did a couple of nice things down here but I said during the first half there's an old adage it's real Ferdinand's words to me every time I went out and played in that last eight nine years of my career when I played with him saying nothing down our side and I don't think Liverpool's right side thinks that way hasn't done for a number of years but Conor Bradley a real chance today.

4:11Gary Neville:It's obviously like going back into midfield. Frimpong on the bench. Connor Bradley is a player that I think has got real talent and potential. But he didn't handle Ganacho well in that first half. Ganacho, I thought, got the better of him. Not in doing anything amazing, but I just thought he had him. I just thought he had him. And, you know, you can see when someone's just shading a game. You know, Ganacho was winning on points, if you like. And then obviously he gets booked. He then has another little nibble at him just before half-time. And then you're in a situation whereby he's sat watching the second half in the dressing room and on the bench.

4:39Gary Neville:and you are down in the dumps when that happens because this is Conor Bradley's big day today so he's missed an opportunity when you get an opportunity in life you've got to take it and this was a big opportunity for him I'm just saying right go on you're in big game Chelsea away just before the international break cement your place I'm putting you in there in front of Frimpong Subbas lies in midfield go and he's not done it Canate looks like he's struggling the boy Kirchhoff has to be honest with you at this moment in time he looks like a youth team player and that's not being sort of I know he's a good player but he looks like he's playing for the under-21s for the youth team, for the academy he looks so naive looks like a baby out there like you're thinking, come on he's losing 50-50s over on that far side against Neto I mean I mean he was probably brought in as a long-term replacement wasn't he for Randy Robertson do you think his introduction perhaps could have been more gradual?

5:32Gary Neville:I just thought he's played in the Premier League though he's a Premier League experience it's not as if he's coming from a different country he's got a lot of games under his belt he's played at these grounds before I expected him to slot in excuse the pun I expected him to sort of just go right in because one he's playing alongside Virgil van Dijk the best centre half in the world so if you want to play against you know you want to play in a back four you want to play with great defenders and he's doing that he's got players who work hard on that side it's not as if he's got Salah in front of him on this side which is a bit more difficult for the right back because you always get a little bit more exposed but I have to say from that first minute of that game or first 10 minutes of that game against Bournemouth on the first day of the season on that Friday night, he struggled let's be clear, Liverpool's full backs are struggling, Frimpong looks like he should be playing as a right winger which is where he did play an out and out right winger, he just looks like a right winger he doesn't perform like a right back Conor Bradley just isn't doing it Andy Robertson I think he's battling, he's battling but he's not quite where he was a few years ago.

6:39Gary Neville:Kerkhez, as I've said, I think I've discussed him and sort of seen how he's going. Liverpool's problems, I think, at this moment in time are as much to do with full-back as anywhere. They need to button that down. They didn't create a lot of chances, Chelsea. I don't think that today Liverpool's defensive work was awful but they just weren't quite there and I actually thought their front players were terrible. I mean, Salah, who is sublime, how can you criticise Mo Salah the consistency and reliability and brilliance of him but some of the decisions of him today when he comes inside and you think he should pass it or you think he should do something better with it, he's finishing so he was poor today, Isaac I thought he'd started the game sharp, didn't quite get into it Virts when he came on I was disappointed with him I said after a few weeks ago on this podcast after the Arsenal game again he looks very very immature in his knowledge of how to play the game the players who play that game that position really well.

7:37Gary Neville:He's obviously got massive talent. His first touch when he came on was amazing and Salah should have scored. But I just see him sort of jogging around and sort of jogging towards players and I see him going too deep when he shouldn't go too deep and I see him standing next to players when he shouldn't be standing next to players. Sometimes I see him being too honest. It sounds crazy. Going back and defending when he should be almost half cheating. Almost like keeping an eye on that deep line midfield player, Casado, and thinking if he goes forward, okay, I can get to him. But I'm going to sit on his shoulder a little bit just in case I can spring off him and go the other way on the counter-attack.

8:08Gary Neville:He's quite predictable at this moment in time in terms of picking up his position. And he was disappointing. Yeah, Liverpool were poor today and in the second half I was really disappointed with him. If you're in Liverpool, that's the most disappointing last 15 minutes I've seen from Liverpool in a long time. Because I think when Chelsea have that back four in play you've scored a goal, you've got to go on and win that game. Everything's said Liverpool should go and win that game. but they've not done. And that's a problem for them. And look, it's not terminal. We've got a title race on. Arsenal have had a great week.

8:42Gary Neville:Liverpool have had a poor week. And I think it makes for a great, you know, next six months because it's obvious that it's going to be a real battle. But for Liverpool, they've got some work to do. But they've got experienced players. They've got world-class players and individuals in their team. They've got a great manager. They'll sort it out. But the full-backs have to step up. Virts has to start playing and understanding how he's going to sort of connect with Isaac and the other forwards in the team. They've got some work to do. They've got some work to do. The one who got away, as far as Liverpool are concerned, a good couple of years ago now, but I think he keeps coming back to haunt them, was Caicedo.

9:15And we have to pay tribute to his performance today, not just the goal.

9:18Gary Neville:He was the best player on the pitch by a mile. Yeah, forget the goal, which was absolutely incredible. He's getting to the ball, he's taking the ball off people, his work around the pitch he's two in one he's everything he's a brilliant midfield player he's the best player on the pitch by a mile if Liverpool had him in midfield he probably would have won he was that good and I think that when he first came it wasn't quite happening for him was it he was playing in that two in midfield alongside Enzo and everyone looking at him thinking what is he but now he's yeah he's I'm breathing before I say it because I'm trying to think of players like Declan Rice and others in the league but I think he's yeah he's the best midfield player in the league at this moment in time and I think I'm comfortable saying that I think Graven Burst last season and maybe Declan Rice and the two boys up at Newcastle Rodri obviously for the last few years but now I think at this time that we are here today getting into October 25 I think we can say that Casedo is the best midfield player in the league and he's performing like that and you talked about Liverpool's wide areas but Chelsea used theirs quite effectively didn't they first of all with Garnaccio and then even after the substitutions obviously Esteval had the final say yeah I thought Garnaccio played well I thought it was I mentioned before about immaturity of say Verts in his positions but I thought I thought Garnaccio was very mature today sometimes when I've watched him at United I thought he's a little bit ill-disciplined in terms of his football and how he plays I thought he was quite disciplined today I thought he made some good runs, I thought he made good choices on the ball I thought it was a good 75 minutes that he played I thought he played well, I thought Neto did a good job on that right hand side I mean they weren't spectacular, they didn't sort of light the game up in terms of how they assist and goals and amazing shots but I just thought they were very solid in their performances and that's what you want sometimes from your wide players like João Pedro as well and then when Esteval came on he had that bit of brilliance I mean, the cross that he put in just before he scores for Enzo Fernandes, who misses with the header, it's the post.

11:32Gary Neville:That should have been 2-1 at that point. So Liverpool had had the warning sign. But yeah, I thought that was a brilliant night for Chelsea. I thought it was a brilliant performance. I thought the wide players did well. I thought they all did well. I don't think there was anybody in a Chelsea shirt that I looked at that I didn't think played anywhere, you know, basically close to their top level. I thought it was a really good performance. You can't beat Liverpool and not be at your best. That's the biggest compliment you can pay to Liverpool. The key question with Chelsea, though, is if they can do this when they're weakened by injuries and suspensions, when they get those players back and the squad is even stronger, can they be in the conversation to challenge Liverpool, to challenge Manchester City, to challenge Arsenal?

12:09Gary Neville:Yeah. I mean, look, I saw them a couple of weeks ago at Old Trafford and they went down to 10 men, so it was a bit of a game that was skewed by that. But I still was disappointed in them after that. I thought they could have done a lot better, particularly when United went to 10 men. And obviously they lose last weekend at Brighton. But you're right, when they get these players back, they've got a massive squad. And that's why they've amassed this squad, to be able to cope with the World Cup Championship, with Champions League football, with all the cup competitions and the Premier League. And they've spent a lot of money to do so.

12:35Gary Neville:So we should be expecting this from Chelsea. I mean, I think they've only gone up to sixth today, haven't they? It's not as if they've had a great start to the season. They haven't. But that's a big, big moment for them. That should give them a lot of confidence. And they have to be at that level of intensity in all games. You can't just switch it on and off like a tap. You have to be at that level of intensity. You know, you're playing against Brighton or you're playing against Nottingham Forest here in a few weeks or whenever it may be, teams that you feel that you maybe should beat, Burnley.

13:06Gary Neville:You have to, as a player, get yourself up. You have to find a way to be able to get yourself at that level of intensity that you would do naturally through the adrenaline rush of a big game like Liverpool or Arsenal or Manchester City. they're the games where you naturally you just spiked straight away but you've got to find a way to get yourself spiked for those other games and you've got to be consistent all the way through the season so these Chelsea players and the manager has to find a way to get that out of them but they've set themselves a standard today particularly in that last 15 minutes when you talk about showing character there couldn't have been anything gone further wrong everything went wrong for them today in the second half didn't they in terms of the defensive substitutions they had to make and they've coped with it and they've dealt with it and they've performed brilliantly.

13:53Now Liverpool lost their second game in the 31st match of last season. They've lost two of their first seven now this season. So it's massive encouragement for Arsenal. And you're talking about teams who win the title can sometimes drop silly points. And West Ham today, would that have been potentially the kind of game it has been in the past where Arsenal have dropped points at home?

14:13Gary Neville:Maybe. I didn't expect them to and they haven't. It looks like a solid 2-0 win. it's a good score line sometimes when you're just clean sheet you've scored two goals you've done your job and obviously the title rivals that you're up against at this moment in time go and basically lose so what a week it's been for Arsenal that was massive last weekend at Newcastle you know as soon as that first goal I shouted the word big because I felt it was big and then the second goal goes in and you're thinking right that's a big moment that Liverpool have lost on the Saturday at Crystal Palace Arsenal have won they needed that, they needed that, but I talk about intent a lot, and Mikel Arteta changed his intent about being positive and going for it and having to win and picking a positive team and making really positive substitutions, just like Enzo Moreska's done here today for Chelsea, it matters, your manager, you've got to stop listening to what they say and look at what they do during the game, that'll tell you everything, are they pragmatic, are they cautious, are they managers that, you can be cautious and pragmatic when you're tuning up at home, I'm sure Mikel Arteta to 2-0 up against West Ham.

15:18Gary Neville:We've won this game. We don't need to go and win it again. That's the time to keep possession and sort of move it around the back and maybe, you know, just be a little bit more careful because you don't want to, you know, before an international break, you don't want to go and make a big mistake. But I think Arsenal have set up really nicely now. I think they'll see this last week as a massive week because of what they've done but also because of what's happened with Liverpool. They've given them encouragement. Talking of massive weeks, it was one for Ruben Amarim. It was a date with Sunderland that he pretty much had to win by the looks of things and he did get the win.

15:52Gary Neville:Yeah, we were half watching it, weren't we preparing for obviously this game and yeah, it was a must-win game. I don't think it lets him off the hook. I think that there's too many defeats, the record's too poor. I don't think anybody will be celebrating too much tonight at Manchester United but I think they'll be relieved that there is a victory today which allows a little bit of peace going into the international break. But yeah, I think that the big challenges are still to come. And I said last week, I'm worried. I'm not any less worried tonight, but what it does mean when you win is that people just tend to just ease off a little bit.

16:29Gary Neville:And that's right, of course, but there's a lot to do. We've had these sort of moments before where Manchester United beat Burnley a few weeks ago. They've beaten Sunderland today. They'll win the odd game, but that's nowhere near enough. when you've got these three weeks to be able to prepare for matches. United need to be right up there. I don't know where they've gone in the league. They've gone to eighth, have they, or something like that? I'd have to double-check. Yeah, so it'll look a lot better, that's for sure. But I don't think anybody would be kidded on by the fact that Manchester United have beaten Sunderland at home.

17:03Gary Neville:The fact that it was even in doubt before the game is probably the problem in itself. What do you make of the fact that it's the fault of you and all your fellow pundits that have got into the players' heads for talking about the system. That's what Ruben Amirim claimed. The pundits had got into his players' heads with all this talk about the system, and the system wasn't the problem. Right, I've not seen that, to be honest with you. Yeah, I've not got a lot of time for that. I think if you're... Well, for a start, if pundits are getting into your head, then you shouldn't be playing for the club.

17:39Gary Neville:Simple as that. I mean, do people not remember Alan Hansen criticising us when we broke in as young kids, saying that you can't win anything with kids? That was the greatest centre-back of all time at that moment. You know, the most successful centre-back of all time, talking about us as if we were inferior and nowhere near good enough. Do they not think that we got criticised during our football careers? I'm sorry, you're playing for Manchester United, it comes with the territory, you've got to step up and you've got to basically... And look, they've been hopeless in the system. They've been absolutely hopeless.

18:08Gary Neville:So, I mean, all right, it's not the system, it's you. the players. We can start just battering the players. I mean, I've mentioned the system because I've not liked certain things that I've said. For instance, Mason Mount playing left wing back. That can't happen. Changing the back three all the time. That two in midfield means that Bruno's got to play in midfield. I don't like that aspect of it. So the parts of the system are a problem in the sense that they haven't got the right players, or it's meaning that Bruno's not in his best position, which is probably in that position where we've seen Enzo Fernandes today in that number 10.

18:39Gary Neville:So the system does create problems but you're right he's right in what he says it's not the entirety of the problem the players are a problem the manager is a problem the whole thing's a problem if you're losing football matches to the level that Manchester United have been doing then I I don't know I never blamed anybody else when we lost football matches and I played in the dressing room that basically when you lost football matches you came in and you said sorry about that last day I was a mess for that goal or I made a mistake there was accountability why would you blame other people when you're losing in matches.

19:11Gary Neville:I mean, to be fair, that's a pretty big problem in itself. So, no, look, I've not got any time for it. Excuse mentality, shortcuts, blaming other people, you know, it's the worst thing that you can do that in life. I think they just need to concentrate on doing their jobs and do it well and win football matches. The only thing that's going to shut anybody up is winning football matches and they've not won anywhere near enough football matches. We could all be quiet and say nothing about Manchester United. It's getting to that point, by the way, where people are just switching off a little bit and sort of saying, well, I expected it, which is the worrying thing.

19:46Gary Neville:The fact that we're still talking about the club and the fact that the club's still under scrutiny tells you how big the club is. But it's getting to that point now where Manchester United lose that you're almost like, well, I expected that. And that's a big problem because there's levels of drops to such a standard. So no one wants that. You think the ex-players that played for the club want to see Manchester United lose? You think I go there, my kids go there, you know, every other week if they're not going to Salford and watch them play. And I go and watch them play if I'm not working for Sky.

20:14Gary Neville:I think I want to go and watch them lose. I think I walk down that canal bank for 45 minutes into that stadium just to go and watch them lose. No, I don't. I go to watch them win. And so does every other fan that goes in that stadium. So I think that they've just got to do the jobs consistently and reliably and they've got to start performing as they should be, which is a highly motivated, strong squad that's been put together with a lot of money placed on them a lot of money being paid to them a lot of money that's been spent on them and they've got to basically go and win football matches on a consistent basis and in two weeks time they've got a massive opportunity to play at Anfield the toughest game and that will tell you where Manchester United are I'll tell you where Liverpool are it's a great game to look forward to in two weeks because Manchester United are off the back of a win Liverpool are off the back of a couple of defeats the game will have pressure on both teams both managers and they'll have a chance to step up and play well in their system and play well at a difficult ground Before that we have the international break so just one other issue to bring up with you a lot of talk about Thomas Tuchel's squad yesterday and the fact that he omitted Jude Bellingham despite the fact that he is fit and back playing to stick with the squad that had served them so well particularly against Serbia in the last round of games could you understand that decision or would you criticise him for leaving Bellingham out?

21:33Gary Neville:No, he's definitely sending him a message though I mean if you think about England managers over the last 20-30 years they've always brought their star players back in even if they haven't played a game just to get them back in amongst it even just to train with the squad so I think it is a message to Jude Bellingham I don't think he'll take it any other way there are enough signals I think that we've seen in Thomas Tuchel's press conferences to know that he's not scared of making a tough decision there's obviously things that he doesn't like not just about Jude Bellingham but other players as well and he's thinking well no I'm going to send him a message I think he really liked what he saw in that last international break and he doesn't want to disrupt that and I think he thinks the players that were together in that last international break deserve to be together again and I think he's probably got to a point in his career where he's strong enough he's experienced enough to be able to handle the criticism that will come his way if it doesn't go well I'm sure Jude Bellingham and Phil Fordham will have an opportunity to come back into the squad and they should come back into the squad but he's definitely sending them both a message you can't not be I've been part of England squads enough to know that managers tend when they only have limited time with their players to get all their players back together that they want for a World Cup as much as possible just so that the rhythm, the training practices the sort of the, what we're going to do the World Cup preparation starts now really, you've only got another two, three weeks with the players before you get to a World Cup so Thomas Tuchel's got to use every single week that he has to get all those players together and he's decided to make that point this week with those big omissions and he's done that purposely because he feels he needs to send a message to people.

23:14He's certainly not starstruck by big names and the only time I've seen you starstruck was the presence of Madonna today. Madonna.

23:20Gary Neville:Well look, I mean I should be fair, there are very few what would be when you think when you were growing up you know Freddie Mercury and Queen or Michael Jackson and Madonna, David Bowie and these massive sort of like megastars. You know, she was the first real female sort of megastar. I mean, maybe Diana Ross and people like that. But for me, Madonna almost broke the mould. She was a massive sort of noise when she first broke through and it was probably when I was about, maybe I don't know, I felt like when I was about probably eight or nine or ten. Yeah, just to see her in the crowd over there munching on the popcorn, watching the football.

23:59Gary Neville:she'll be wanting a season ticket now won't she after that late drama probably yeah I hope she'll leave before the end I actually asked did we get Madonna celebrating the Chelsea goal or not he said no we didn't have a camera and I was like you can't take the camera off Madonna you've got one up here for me for the podcast you've got to keep one on Madonna that's the only time that's ever happened a camera for you preferred to a camera for Madonna anyway it's been a pleasure as ever thanks for joining us on the Gary Neville podcast thank you