If You Missed the TikTok Era DON'T Miss This One | A Conversation With Real Leaders Magazine

0:00Before you listen to today's podcast, and I know there's background noise, I'm literally sitting on a plane that's about to be taken off. But before you do anything, I want you to go to my Instagram right now, Gary VEE. Go on the profile, hit where it says following, and add me to your favorites to make sure you don't miss any of my Instagram posts. I've got fire coming this summer. Lots going on, lots of giveaways, lots of exclusives, lots of partnerships, and just lots of rants and fire. That's what I want you to do. So please let me know if you did it on Twitter or on text. And now enjoy the podcast.

0:41On today's episode of the podcast, we're sharing a conversation that was recorded for the cover story of Real Leaders Magazine, a global publication focused on spotlighting impact-driven CEOs, entrepreneurs, and brands using businesses as a force for good. Gary sits down with Kevin and Carla, the president and editor of Real Leaders Magazine. You'll hear them talk about branding, how to build attention in 2025, and why platforms like TikTok Shop and YouTube Shorts are changing everything. If you're a founder, a business owner, or anyone looking to stay ahead of culture and consumer behavior, this one is packed with actionable advice.

1:17The conversation begins with a question from Carla. Let's hear what she has to say. You know, one of the things I think that I think about when I think of you is personal branding and company branding. today's business climate I mean we're told we need to do everything online and through social but there's so much content there's so much noise there's so much going on so how does even how does someone even build a personal brand in this climate these days and what are you know some of the important lessons you've learned along the way about personal branding and brand equity look I think you know I think one of the coolest things about business is it's kind of like like sports and that it's very merit-based.

1:55And so, you know, I hear a lot from a lot of people like, well, there's so many other people trying to do it or to your point, noise. And I always remind them like, you know, okay. Like, you know, like there's really no optionality, right? Like, what are you gonna do in that environment? If you're crippled by competition, you probably shouldn't be in business in the first place. So that's a really important mindset going into this. Number two, I take the other side of the pillow and see the absolute insanity of it in a positive way. Meaning, obviously, especially given that you're in print and Kev looks like a youngster, you too, Carla Blake.

2:40I think both of you remember a world where social media wasn't fully dominating every single, It wasn't the dominant force. And just like this moment, even though I've been very fond of this magazine, I had to wait until this moment where you felt it was appropriate. You picked me in this moment. What's amazing about LinkedIn is I can post a video right now with great thoughts and it could get 4 million views if it wins on the merit of the creative. It's not even the social media that I grew up in. when I invested in Facebook, Twitter, and Tumblr, these stock options right here back in 2007, you had to build a community for a long period of time to get millions of followers so that a lot of people could see something you say.

3:26The fact that, I mean, in fact, I would actually argue, it's funny that this got brought up. I'd like to see the both of you spend more time having this incredible publication make a lot more content for LinkedIn because I think it would grow your business dramatically. Yeah. And I know Kevin has some follow-up questions related to that. If I just may put a bow on it, Carla, I apologize. I think the answer is tough shit. Of course, everyone's gonna compete. Comma, do you realize that you're one, even if you've never started a personal brand for the last 15 years, that if your third video or written post on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, because of the way the algorithms work.

4:07By the way, the most substantial thing that has happened in communication in a very long time. We are now in the era of not social media, but interest media, an individual piece of content where you have six followers. It's your fourth day. You're a CEO of a business reading this right now and you've missed the boat and you envy Gary V because he's been doing it for 15 years. I have great news for you. We are on equal playing ground now because if your stuff is good and today I just mailed it in and I just did a mundane kind of C minus for Gary V piece of execution, your video is going to get more views than me.

4:44That's a level of merit of thought and creative that has never existed. Yeah, that's an excellent point. Okay, so a little bit about the impact space, and then we can move on from that. You've said that how you make money is more important than how much you make. You still feel that way? Is that a nod to the impact business sector? and just kind of what are your thoughts about the impact business space, what's going well for that space, what's maybe not going so well? I think a lot of things there. So yes, I still believe in that. And I believe in that predominantly based on whether you're Tom's Shoes or brands like that, that pioneered some of this stuff, whether you're donating a percentage of your Patagonia or whether you're on the complete other side and you don't care about anybody but yourself and you built a business.

5:34I think the reason it matters is when you're 90 and more importantly, what really happens in your life between 40 and 90, I just don't think the dollars in your bank account actually drive a level of happiness that unfortunately I think a lot of people are confused by. And so, you know, I think it matters because I just think you'll have a happier life as a human being if you actually believe in what I'm saying because you'll have more joy in your life, both in your family, friendships, and just how you feel about yourself as you round up your journey. And then, I think in the impact space, I think when I think back at 2005, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, when this stuff started really kind of like the early seeds of the movement got going, I think it was remarkable.

6:24When I think about 2015, I felt like every startup I looked at would walk in and be like, Gary, you're gonna love my startup. We sell umbrellas, but every time we sell an umbrella, we give an umbrella to somebody in a rainforest. And then I would look under the hood and I'm like, yeah, but you're selling an umbrella for twice the price. You're really not being altruistic. You're just using good as a facade for your selfishness. Now in 2024, I think we're in actually a beautiful place. I think we're in this place where humans are thoughtful about this and comma. We've got a little bit of the muckery snake oil salesman of using it as a weapon out of the system.

7:06And we're almost kind of in this mature space where I like that it is a subconscious or conscious thought of every entrepreneur when they start a company, that this is an option. And I think that's a remarkable place for us to be. What do you look for? You talked about some of the brands that you were an angel investor in, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, Snapchat, Venmo. What are some of the components that you look for today in a business that you're going to put your money in or resources into? You know, I love to talk about publicly about my big wins. There are many more losses that I don't talk about.

7:40And the beauty of being 49 now, instead of, let's say, early 30s, is the last 15 years of investing, 20 years of investing, has taught me that I'm looking for the jockey and the horse. So in early parts of my career, in the earliest parts, I would only invest if I thought the kid, the guy or the gal could do it. So it was pure jockey. Then I got high on my own supply because I was so on fire that I lost my way a little bit and became only about the horse. If I liked the idea, I could imagine myself helping it to get big. And so it almost overlooked the jockey. I am now firmly in a place where I have to adore the idea and the intuition I have that this human being in front of me is capable of seeing it through.

8:35Rachel Tipograph at Micmac, she's on the sixth version of Micmac and it's because she's capable of seeing it through. So I look for that now. And because I do such early stage investing, I don't have the company's results to rely on that the person can do that. I have to go on my intuition on can they do that. But I'm looking for what I call the jockey and the horse. That's a great analogy. All right, I'm going to ask one more question, and then I'm going to punt over to Kevin. You're considered one of the leading global minds on kind of what's next, what's coming up in culture in the digital world.

9:14And I've seen you recently talking about live shopping and how it will revolutionize small business. And I just wondered if you had some thoughts you can share with us about that and how it would impact founders and companies that are reading Real Leaders. Literally any, this is the quote, you can put it in a box in dark black. Literally anyone reading this article, if you sell something, you must stop reading this article and immediately go spend 25 hours researching the current state of life, social shopping, TikTok shop. Obviously, notwithstanding what happens here in the U.S. ban or not. Obviously, this is global, so there will still be a lot of places.

9:48is a startup called Whatnot that is a leader. But we've already seen Walmart, Amazon, eBay have their own live platforms. It's inconceivable to me that Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube do not have aggressive announcements, M &A. I don't know what they're up to. I have no inside information, but it's inconceivable to me that we won't see things from Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, X, and YouTube, YouTube Shorts this year. Again, if you're a businessman or woman that has lived in, executed, or pay attention to China, you're completely bored by what I'm saying because this has been a decade of reality in China, but it's finally hit the Western world.

10:31It's significant. I think it could be incredibly detrimental to consumer packaged good apparel or retailers if they dismiss it the way many dismissed Amazon on in social media. I think this is big girl, big boy stuff. I think QVC and home shopping networks still do crazy amounts of revenue and like nobody even knows, half of under 40 doesn't even know it exists. And anybody over 40 is flabbergasted when they look under the hood. There is something inherently human that humans love to buy stuff when it's in a live environment. It's why live auctions do well. It's why QVC does well. And social media, when you take the conglomerate of the seven platforms that lead, the sheer attention, the hours spent by human beings in social media is profound and misunderstood in its dominance.

11:31And now you're layering in shopping. This is a very big deal. I would argue in a 15 year window, if Amazon stumbled and misplayed it, this could be the thing that knocks them off their perch. Stunning, stunning, okay, fabulous. Kevin, are you ready? One more, one more, one more, Kevin. Even if you're a B2B company, reading this right now and being like, well, I sell SaaS, that doesn't mean anything to me, I implore you to figure out how to go do a collaboration with a fashion brand and make a cool hoodie for your B2B company and then sell it on live shopping just for the awareness and brand building, not the revenue, which I know would seem far-fetched to a B2B person reading this, but I'm not saying it to be wrong or for my health.

12:19It's a big media. Well, we're very aware of social media's dominance. It's completely disrupted our industry, believe it or not. Not only do I read it, I have unlimited receipts on the internet in 2009, 10, 11, I've been begging traditional media companies to understand how big this is. It's kind of similar to what I'm doing right now with live shopping to retailers and packaged good companies. That was going to be one of my questions, though, is like, how does an antiquated media platform like a magazine, American Pastime, stay relevant in today's day and age? By conforming to the new distribution model as an awareness and execution equity of what it does.

13:02meaning if you fall in love with your form factor instead of your brand, you become vulnerable. Real leaders, the Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated is a great example. Sports Illustrated could have been house of highlights and overtime and bar still. It could have been, but it became obsessed with its medium, not its brand. And so how any antiquated anything can do, let's talk about this, because I'm bouncing back to the prior subject matter. If you're a clothing store on Main Street, my dad's wine store in New Jersey is in an affluent area, so Milburn, New Jersey. Nice, great town, good money, upper middle class to wealthy.

13:50There's plenty of small stores on Main Street in Milburn that are just dying. Of course, we know, online shopping, right? However, if one of those store owners this morning woke up and decided to turn their store, a piece of it, into the studio that did live shopping all day long, they would explode over time if they were good, blah, blah, blah. So to answer your question, Kev, it's not becoming delusional or ideological on your medium. It's about becoming obsessed with your brand and finding ways to convert it into new attention parallels. Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, that was one of the major takeaways I got in day trading attention, which by the way, a great book.

14:34And I listened to an audio book, by the way. I don't know why it's free on Spotify, but you should definitely charge for it. So one of the things I'd love just to get for our audience real quick, could you just explain to the layman, what is day trading attention and what do you mean by under overvalued platforms? Hey everybody, actually, if you're a really hardcore listener, you know I never do this. I'm sorry to be jumping in the middle of the podcast, but the truth is I'm like shitting the bed on this everybody else is getting people to review on Spotify and Apple and like the Vayner Nation does none of that because I've never asked so if this podcast has ever meant anything to you please go to Spotify or Apple right now and leave a review by the way even if you give me a one star review because you think it's shit I respect it but just leave a review an actual review four or five stars and the actual details of why yeah that would mean something for me so thanks now back to the podcast so day trading attention has cap you know it was a real big moment for me when i came up with the term one of those kind of eureka moments it captures everything i've been trying to say for 15 years and but you know again you've got to kind of understand it so attention i believe is the ultimate asset in the world nothing can happen unless someone's listening to it you can't get you can't become president of the united states if you're talking in a cave by yourself and think meaning there are people there, right?

15:55As a parent, you can't have your child become the human you want them to become if you don't talk to them. And they, you know, every single thing on earth is based on attention, what people give attention to, and then the quality of the content, the written word, the audio, the video, is the variable if it lands or not. But without the attention, it's the old, you know, that whole, does the tree fall in the forest, did it even happen? So attention is my obsession. I grew up building my dad's business and then my personal brand. First on direct mail, print, magazine ads, newspaper ads, radio, and local television.

16:36Then I did it on Google AdWords and email marketing. Then I did it on YouTube. Then I did it on social media. And I promise you, and I think this will land with both of you based on the history of my career, I will be at the forefront of when VR matters. And I promise you when, if VR has three hours a day, the way a phone does, you'll go into the VR device and you will be like, there he is. Because I don't have any romance. And this is actually very important for every real leader to hear. I am not romantic about how I got here or how I currently make my money. Because if I do, I can get caught back to antiquated.

17:16I have to always understand where it's going and I've got to get that timing right. Day trading is a term on Wall Street, right? That was different than the way people used to invest in stocks. Our grandparents, our parents, they would buy a stock and they would go to sleep or a mutual fund and they would see you later. I'll look at it in a couple of years. Then when the internet came along, we had these kids buying stocks and selling them every second, day trading. I believe that marketing, Let's talk about your magazine, right? If I'm buying an ad in there, I've got to make it. I buy it from you.

17:51There's a long period of time before it shows up in an issue, which is great and important. But the way social works now and the sheer attention, the speed in which you have to make content and be on top of this is more like day trading than buying mutual funds. And so it captured the essence of what I want. I see the Nike book behind you, right? from Nike to Real Leaders, to Gary Vee, the personal brand, to a store on Madison Avenue, to a law firm, the more they understand if you are doing marketing, if you are trying to get attention, if you want to succeed and build anything, a personal brand or a business, the more you understand it's day trading attention now, the better you will succeed.

18:35And then to the point of the book, boy, oh boy, once you understand that, you start to realize how much science and art and strategy and complexity is to be good at it. Yeah, I would argue it'd be like me telling everybody, actually, here's a good comp that actually worked out. If I told every kid that was an athletic freak 20 years ago when they were six, 15 years ago, hey, you should all become basketball players, not football players, because I see the future and basketball's gonna grow. And because there's only 15 players on the team and not 53, you make a lot more money if you're a good basketball player than a football player.

19:12That would have been the right strategy. That wasn't obvious 20 years ago. And so once what I'm trying to teach people, but still being great is hard. And that's what this is. I'm telling you that basketball is coming. But the reason I wrote the book was I'm going to show you how to train and actually do it well. Got it. Thanks for sharing that with our community. Again, they're all kind of impact-oriented, growth-minded CEOs. and they really appreciate learning from real experience. And I think that's one of the things I love about this article. You're a practitioner. You know that. One of the questions I actually had, I'd love for you to share from your experiences because I read Crushing It.

19:50That's what got me into this space. I'm in a family business. It helped bring it from print to digital. Trust me, brother. I've been on LinkedIn every single day doing podcasts. Love your stuff, right? Thank you. My question for you, though, is I just read about the Entrepreneur Magazine, your buy, $50 ,000 accelerated program. What worked for you? What channel worked for you? Because I found out about that through an email on entrepreneur.com. What channels worked for you to attract that kind of client? The reason you've only heard about that now is I also, you know, it's funny. You're going to actually appreciate this.

20:23I, even at this point in my career, not only does my marketing not overvalue yesterday, my operations doesn't. I would argue the most hidden thing about me because of the way I communicate publicly is that I would argue that humility is one of the foundational personality traits I have that have made me successful in business. The reason what Vibe was, was we only went to people that have interacted or reached out to VaynerMedia and VaynerX over the last 15 years to get the original two classes of that product because I want it, because those were people that already got a lot of value from us.

21:05And in case it wasn't a good product, I knew that I had hedged the mitigated risk already because they were already so happy with us and we've done so much for them that I didn't want that to happen and we would have done right by them. But it wouldn't have been like if I yelled from the top of the mountains and then people have never interacted with me. So because I knew it was a new program, I wanted to, this was almost call it our beta, our alpha of Vive in this environment, because I wanted to make sure it was worth it, because I don't take lightly a human being writing a check of that size, you have to really deliver a lot for that to be valuable.

21:44And so that original cohort of consumers were already people we've interacted with or done other things for. And that's why you see that. Got it. Okay. So people kind of in the community already have experienced a taste, a sample, and are enjoyed, I guess, the values. People who truly have directly interacted with VaynerX, meaning VaynerMedia or the Sasha Group or Gallery Media Group, like one of the companies with VaynerSpeakers, like have actually, actually interacted, not even like not following, like truly transactually or operationally have interacted with the organization. love it love it okay um well i i love i love your concept in the book when it came to just to ask me anything at the end like i thought the case studies at the end are honestly the best part if you don't mind actually pulled our community i have a few questions through love for you to answer for them uh we're just going to rapid fire here uh first one is if i'm a direct to consumer conscious or certified b corp company where should i be playing in 2025 where should i be what playing in 2025 online?

22:47Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, required, not even optional. Facebook and Instagram, TikTok and YouTube Shorts. That is like, you can't even, like I couldn't comprehend if you're trying to sell something direct to consumer, not being on those channels. The next tier would be Twitter X, LinkedIn, Snapchat, Spotlight, which is the TikTok Instagram part of Snapchat. But the first four are just utterly required to have any prayer of success. Okay, that's huge. And I appreciate you sharing those new platforms. Remember when you had Musical.ly in there, it was just like, no way this is going to happen, but it did.

23:27Next question, if I'm a small B2B service provider or law firm looking to target conscious business owners, what kind of strategy do you think would cater to them best? So this is going to blow people's minds. the AI algorithms that run the for you pages and the feeds of the social networks are getting better and better by the hour to understand the content and then put that content in front of the people that they're trying to reach. So can you imagine, can you imagine we're now gonna be in a place in a year or two, it's already happening, but I'll go with a year or two where this individual, if they're saying words that are conscious for good, literally the algo is picking that up and then the feed will send it to people who've shown a propensity of being interested in that subject matter.

24:17So my answer would be very heavy YouTube shorts and LinkedIn for that exact person. LinkedIn because it just finds the B2B environment. YouTube shorts because YouTube is the second biggest search engine in the world. And so when you put a social piece in there, a YouTube short, you will show up for the people that are looking for that kind of content. And that would be stronger than you doing it on Facebook and Instagram right now. Got it. A common question you always get that I think is really relevant that we wanna share in the magazine is if you are a founder growing a business on social media, should you grow it on your personal platform, on your profile or on the companies?

25:00Great question. The answer is both. You know, as you know, by living by me talking about how I actually do it, VaynerMedia and Wine Library and vFriends and everything I have have their own pages. And then I have my pages. And, you know, humans will tend to over index brands and companies. It's just the nature of the medium. But by doing both, you're able to take the human audience and push them to your business. And you can work with them back and forth. Collab posts are now a thing. And so I genuinely believe it's both. But if somebody's crippled by that, they think that's so hard or I can't, the reality is either will work.

25:42Okay. Last question here. Brand guidelines. You talk a lot about it in the book. Tell me a little bit more about should a company have brand guidelines or do they get in the way of ultimate creativity? You know, I think it's kind of, I would say 2080. So should brands have guidelines? Sure. Look, I think it's good to know what you're up to for new employees, but I think to your point, again, for the leaders that are reading this, this is a marketing terminology issue more so than a business and operation one, but in marketing land, how to build a brand, brand guidelines, a lot of this stuff is hurting people in the new world.

26:23It was good for television. It's not good for social media. I would rather brands focus on being relevant to as many different consumer segmentations as possible versus coming up with a tagline or color scheme that becomes restrictive of creativity in this new world. Hey, brother. Thanks for keeping it real and taking the time to be with us today. We appreciate it very much. Continued success. Talk soon. Bye-bye. Thanks. Bye. Hey, everybody. I put out a new deck. I know the pyramid deck changed everyone's life. Go to garybee.com slash attention. A free, how many pages is it, Sid? A free 47 page deck that is free that will change your business, your life, your brand, your world.

27:09Go check it out.