Marketing, Patience and Building Brand in 2025 | Do This Not That

0:00Podcast nation, before I get you into today's podcast, big announcement. as you probably heard at this point because I had John from Stan on the show I'm an investor advisor to an incredible startup called Stan Stan.store I'm sending you right now to GaryVee.com GaryVee.com slash Stan go check this out we've done a GaryVee Stan Store challenge which actually has a weekly call with me this is built for everyone who's been affected honestly by my overall content the tech stack all these features and the minimal costs per month that Stand Store has built is really the tool that was needed for this world that I envisioned when I wrote Crush It, when I wrote Crushing It, and this overall thing I'm thinking a lot about lately, which is the individual empire, right?

0:48This creator entrepreneur slash entrepreneur creator economy that I think is gonna eat up the oxygen, very honestly, the thing that so many of you want in your life and the reason so many of you are not there yet is you've got the strategy for me. you've got the ambition within yourself but you don't have the tools for you to fully maximize it and I believe you can find that at Stan store Stan dot store but specifically I want you to sign up for it through my challenge because I want to get access with you and plus there's a bunch of cool things so if you want to go see those cool things go to GaryVee.com slash Stan S-T-A-N now to the podcast This is the Gary Vee audio experience I have this events business We put on events and we're doing something stupid.

1:33OK, so what we do is we'll go out there and we'll put ads on social media on Instagram or content on social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, whatever. And the ones are trying to get people to register and stuff. And mostly when they're not doing well, what we do is we put ad dollars. We amplify. We boost them with ad dollars to try to almost hide this crappy creative that we've made. is amplification of paid ads on social media epically stupid? So first of all, the fact that you asked that question in the way that you asked that question, I wish you actually did put a USB in me and see what was going on with my chemicals because my heart smiled so hard because I've been very loudly and effectively, but not directly enough.

2:24This is something I've literally thought about this summer, which is this fall, I need to make black and white direct content that the single stupidest thing in the world of marketing and business and pop culture is amplifying content that clearly did not do well because it didn't do well organically because A, you're trying to convert something like ticket sales or B, because you're so deeply insecure and you don't want something that has 800 views And so you want 40 ,000 views because you are literally taking money and throwing it into a garbage and then lighting a match and burning it to the ground.

3:03So, yes, you are doing the single worst thing on earth. Comma, the fact that you now know it, whether you saw a clip or you read it in the book, makes me so happy because I am desperate to be a positive contributor in some way, shape or form. And it sounds like you are now ready to no longer do that anymore. So kudos to you. Well, okay. That makes me feel really good other than the being stupid part, which I agree with and my wife would agree with. But here's the part that, so I read the book. I love the book. And here's the part I'm confused by. So one of the things you're really known for and how I got all hooked on on your content is this idea of jab, jab, jab, right hook.

3:46Meaning for people out there who don't know, Gary's really coined this whole thing of where you give, you give, you give with your content. You're providing value, you're providing value, you're providing value. And then you hit with this hook and say, by the way, why don't you work with me or buy this thing or do whatever. And the key there is you ask. You don't take. I always like to clarify here. You give, you give, you give, and then you ask. And when they do not deliver on your ask, you do not feel bad or sad or mad at them. very key nuance to my model that i'm passionate about right like the entitlement of thinking just because you've given a bunch of good content that someone's going to buy your sneaker or your wine or your trading card or anything else that other people sell is audacious and manipulative the concept of give give give is brand and then you're going to convert a certain part of that audience so yes i'm deeply passionate about that so heard go ahead so but a lot of times you're putting content out there and you have your winners and losers and in my case we're amplifying losers because we don't want them to be losers.

4:45The problem is our jabs are winners. I mean, they're winners because they're like value. So the thing, but the value ones, like if I put out a piece of content and it does really well, that one's not asking for anything. So it's not converting to pipeline or sales that fast. Not black and white last attribution. Subconsciously it is. Right. Like that's called brand. One is sales. One is brand. So yes, heard. And I know where you're going. Keep going. So there's the question. So now what? So now what? So I do I, do I amplify the winners that may not be the ones converting to sales or do I amplify?

5:23Let me give you one right off the bat. I love this is more consulting session than podcast because I'm enjoying it. And I'm so pumped because like even in eight seconds, this is going to fucking crush for you. You ready? Yes. I need it. Your clear charisma and sense of humor is one of your biggest attributes. You know that. Besides your hair, you know that your personality is what you got, right? Right, yes. It's all I got. We've literally been here for eight minutes, and it's as clear to me as the sun will come up tomorrow. Here's what I want you to try. Okay. The next time you have a piece of content that does well that's a jab, right, a high-value piece of content, I want you to then take that piece of content back home and post-produce it.

6:08I want you to take that piece of content and then slightly tweak it. Let me tell you how I would do that. I would have whatever video you have that did well. I want you to then make an edit where you, your face, you, you. Me. In the bottom left-hand corner with a cutout, as long as the bottom left-hand corner wasn't critical to the piece of content. I want your little head to be in there while the video is running. This is the edit I want you to make. I'm doing it. You're literally – I'm going to reenact it here. Obviously, for people that are listening, you won't be able to get this, but follow me, everyone.

6:45If you're watching visually, this will be easy. This is literally what you're doing while that video is playing. You're like – Yeah. And then you're pointing up. You're pointing a finger to the audience saying, wait for me. I'm about to jump in. We're all watching this video. and then you're going to go buy some fucking tickets for me for this event. That's it. In their face. I love it. And it will work. Here's why. That piece of content already proved that the first three seconds, the next 10 seconds work, right? So you know you have something that works. Now you've added an extra element of intrigue of like, what the hell is this dude's head doing in the bottom left-hand corner?

7:24Then you're going to obviously not do exactly what I said. You're going to be like, hey, thanks for watching out. What this is about is our big event on October 19th. There's a link. So you're going to take the original piece of content that did well organically, showed consumer relevance and interest. You're going to DJ it. Why do you think all these EDM guys had the hits? They fucking – and what Puff Daddy's career was built on. I know that might not be politically correct these days. But the sampling, these were already fucking hits. Right. You're sampling your own hit. I like that. You see where I'm going?

7:54I like the analogy of sampling because if I was, I have no music abilities. I couldn't even sing a bar mitzvah. I like the idea of pulling in the winner and just tweaking it a little bit, and that's what I amplify. That's the plan. You're taking a jab and you're converting it into a right hook using my old terminology. And if you run media against the right kind of target against creative that has already clearly worked, where you're editing it in a way that didn't disrupt what made it work, you will fucking crush. All right. I love that. And you touched on something and I believe attribution is total garbage.

8:31Of course. You touched on last touch, it's garbage, right? Because for 20 years, Google got credit for things that other mediums were doing because Google became de facto place you would go. Kudos to Google, great business. But people overinvested in search because I would see – I'm looking at a billboard in Manhattan right now. I would see that and it would be a second. And then I would go to fucking Google and be like medical club 49 or whatever. And then back home at marketing land, they're like, oh, Google worked. And the billboard does it. Yeah, it's total crap. Like I spend a lot of time in the world.

9:06I do a lot of different media, but one of the media is email. And my clients are like, oh, these email campaigns are crushing it compared to whatever. I go, even though it's not, doesn't help my business. I'm like, no, the email didn't work. It was just the last thing they got, the last stop on the train. You're assigning value to crap. That's because, brother, there's a big confusion in our industry about what is sales and what is marketing. Right? Email and Google AdWords are much closer to sales DNA than organic social content, which is much more similar to what worked in the 50s and 60s on television.

9:43You had the attention of the consumer on a medium you story told and it affected them.

9:54What people don't understand is that sales is what you do when you're not good at branding and marketing. And listen, I love being a salesman. In fact, you may know this since it sounds like you've done a deep dive. Probably the thing I'm most excited about in the world right now is live social shopping. That's fucking QVC. That's sales to the oomph. I believe in sales and marketing the most. However, I did not buy in the 80s and 90s and 2000s all that Nike stuff because somebody last touch attributed me, somebody cold called me, Nike sent me an email. I bought it because of brand. Nobody's buying a Labubu right now and sticking it on their fucking purse because they got cookied and we followed them around the internet and we made them, suffocated them to buy a Labubu.

10:38They're buying it because of brand because if they put it on their bag, they're in the know and they want to feel in the know. That's called the psychology of brand. In a lot of ways, the media that's measurable is the most ridiculous, meaning like it's getting credit for way too much just because it happens to be measurable. Well, now you're talking about the accommodation of corporate marketing, which is really sad. We've sucked out the creatives and we've implanted the mathematicians, which is fine. I'm a big believer in purple. I'm not red. I'm not blue. I'm not just art. I'm not just math.

11:20I actually think the reason math has gained momentum in marketing is because the artists went too far. and like everyone who wasn't good enough to be in Hollywood went to Madison Avenue and used their brand's money to make the commercials that they wanted to make for themselves, not to sell fucking soap. So I understand why we have the era of math. It was actually the artist's fault. However, the problem is we are too in the era of math right now and the beauty is 50-50. Oh, I totally agree with that and I love that. And side note, what would be the odds of you ever walking around with a little boo boo somewhere attached to your being uh pretty high if it was a collaboration with v friends and the boo boo i should have known that i didn't know that that's amazing only if only like i definitely am not usually quote unquote on trend occasionally i'm so me that seven years later it becomes the trend but i am not trendy um so the high if Lububu comes calling and says, we'd like to do a Lububu vFriends collaboration now that I'm building this Marvel Pokemon world and I need to win in things that look like Lububu.

12:30But otherwise, you know, it's funny. I just did something the other day where they were giving me way too many flowers of like setting all these, like being on trend. I was like, I didn't set that train. I wasn't on trend. Me dressing down and me cursing was just me being me. And then like the world evolved and it became a little more common in the business world that's not me setting the trend nor being on trend that's just i stepped in shit well i personally thank you because hopefully i think you actually started the trend so i went from wearing button downs and freaking khakis so i don't even own that crap anymore so i owe you i really i really am happy for all of us like and by the way this is the weirdest shit you want an exclusive jay i've literally had weird feelings recently saying, I want to wear like a suit and tie proper 1950s for a year, just for the fuck of it, you know, like just for some fun.

13:26But no, it is nice that the casualization of society has penetrated the workforce. I do think there's some romance lost in that. You know, I actually understand people who put like dressing, like back to back to authenticity. Like it's authentically running through my mind that I might just want to do that for the fun of it when I'm 90 to look back at that era. Not for any other reason. I love the people right now that are overly dressed because I'm like, good for you. That's your fucking jam. And in fact, just like tight clothes and baggy clothes, pendulum swing, I'd be shocked if in 15 years we don't see a big movement, five years, nine years, 13 years, a big movement to proper attire coming back because we've all got tired of fucking ball caps and t-shirts and baggy shorts as well.

14:14So I could see all of it happening. Well, I'm doubling down. I go men's warehouse and buying equity in there immediately. You know what you should do? Speaking of this, because it kind of leads into it. You basically have said out there that social media is kind of dead or dying. It's really interest media. So like if you started an account today, zero followers, okay, it was just you wearing suits like on a TikTok account and you post the videos, I'm wearing a suit today. Is the world today, because it's now what you call interest media, is that going to do better than people that have followers of a zillion followers?

14:47It will do better if that human, are you talking about me, me, Gary Vee, or me just like - No, not to be you, Gary Vee. If I wore a suit or a random person wore a suit, it's like, who gives a crap? Me for sure. Because once you have a platform, you have a platform, hence why brand matters. but but anyone like literally a 29 year old listening right now who's never made a piece of content if it's in his in this scenario or hers for that matter soul this is what's so cool about what's actually happening that i think a lot of people don't see we throw around authenticity and passion and transparency so much and and often unfortunately the people that throw it around a lot of times are like the least authentic.

15:31Yeah. But what is very clear to me as someone who I would say is a human anthropologist and really does spend a shocking amount of his time watching. I would say that if it was in my soul that I like passionately care about being dapper and I think there's incredible self-esteem value when I put on a suit and I go into Superman mode versus when I'm Clark Kent, if that's my essence and I can communicate that while I'm building that account, yes, that person will crush. If I'm doing it because I'm listening to this podcast, I'm like, oh, here's an angle. Right. And when you're chasing money, if you're investing in crypto because you think that's where the money is, if you're investing in real estate because you think that's where the money is, if you're cannabis, collectibles, social media marketing, influencers, AI, if you're chasing because that's where you think the money is versus quadruple downing on what fucking gets you going, you will be vulnerable.

16:32When you triple down on what gets you going, you know, my breakout moment in my career was giving a keynote speech in 2008 or nine in the Javits Center. And I said, if you're a fan of Smurfs, Smurf it up. If you love ALF, start making content about ALF. At the time, it was about blogging and doing Twitter. Now this interest media algorithm led social media economy where the attention of full society is over scaled on social. If you love Bon Jovi. And you just go fucking ham on Bon Jovi content. The fact that for 15 years of social you would have 80 followers after a year. and now the fact that when I post my third Bon Jovi video, it will find people that have a propensity to give a fuck about Bon Jovi because that's how deep the AI is now.

17:25That I have 800 followers on that third post and I'm starting to build my world. That is a level of opportunity for society, for happiness and commercial success. That is a level of nirvana that I think people cannot see in this moment where we've decided to cloud social as bad, not good. Well, along those lines, and I couldn't agree with you more, that this idea of interest media that, forget about your follower count. Follower count is only social proof to decide whether or not, you know. Yeah, there's some lingering brand equity on it. I do believe within a half decade, the following count might not even be publicly seen.

18:04I think it will continue to diminish in importance in this rise of AI interest media algorithms. Yeah, and I think that's a good thing. Well, I would say it's a good thing for day one people. I would say for people like myself who bled for 15 years to build a fan base, it'd be like email marketing. Okay, yay. You spent your whole life building a million-person email list, and now the market says – and Google comes out and says, now with Gmail, everyone has a million. I'm sure the people that work their tails off. But I agree with you. I think merit should reign. you know and i think i understand what you're saying and and from a place of people dwelling that they haven't followed what i've been talking about for 15 years and they missed the boat good news you missed nothing well along those lines though because in marketing there's always this thing best practices which is nails on chalkboard i literally hate the phrase best practices i said by the time it becomes a best practice it's an animated piece of crap um and and the problem is with this idea of interest media instead of social media if you try to say what are the best practices and then you follow them, then you're not going to be playing the interest media game.

19:15Isn't, is that, I mean, do you think best practice is pretty much that? Yeah, listen, I'm a fan of where you're going, comma. I think of this like imposter syndrome. Like that term drives me crazy because we came up with a new term for the word insecure. Yeah, right. We put makeup on the word insecure. I think best practices is makeup on the real world, which is you need to be strategic at all times, right? so I get where you're going and I actually am a buyer that once it hits that status in corporations it's garbage often comma every the only reason VaynerMedia is dominating is on a daily basis all I care about is the essence of what is the best things you can do to maximize relevance and awareness to create consideration to create purchase and that I call pack inside of VaynerMedia, platforms, algorithms, and culture, right?

20:10First, you need to know which platforms have the attention. What's Spotify versus Substack versus Snapchat Spotlight versus Facebook Blue proper infeed versus Instagram versus TikTok versus TikTok Shop versus TikTok Affiliate versus LinkedIn versus LinkedIn. Like that is truly what I think I've committed my career to and has set me slash us apart. Next, algorithms. within everything I just mentioned and the 30 other things I didn't mention, TikTok, YouTube Shorts, Twitter. How do the algorithms work? What creative gets attention? What formats? What are the things that will work? How important are the three seconds versus not?

20:47A lot of people became obsessed with the first three seconds. They don't realize the 10th second has now become uncomfortably important, right? Things like that. And then finally, culture. Do you know what's going on with LaBubu? Do you know what Cindy Sweeney's going through right now with her campaign? Do you know what's going on with Aaron Rodgers at the Steelers? Do you understand if Sexy Red and Ice Spice are as hot as they were a year ago or not? Do you understand what's going on with Fortnite and Roblox? Are you aware of what the number one show is on Netflix or are you not? Do you know what's going on with Denim?

21:20Are you aware that Gap is coming back or are you not? Do you understand that Kith has become the establishment and things that are coming up, whether it's mad happy or the new project like do you know shit or don't you to me in fact in our industry brand strategists are going to get replaced by pop culture strategists right current consumer relevance strategists and so that's how i think about that brother so whether you call it best practices or best strategies or strategic blueprints or you know i call it ironically i call it day trading attention to some degree right like to me i'm trying to understand the framework of PAC.

21:59And I believe that the liquid deaths and the poppies and gaps, resurgence, and all these things, if you look under the hood, they are the people doing the things I'm talking about. And everybody else is not. And that is why we are seeing catastrophic and super stupendous remarketing opportunities. When I say remarketing, I mean, not remarketing, I mean, market shifts on who the leaders are, who's doing revenue, who's declining in revenue, We're seeing extremes of growth and declines that we have not seen historically in Fortune 5000 land because the game is so complicated now and most people have no fucking clue.

22:40I couldn't agree more. It's almost like the brands that move at the speed of culture are the ones that really are getting that attention. You know, you can't just try to do all the different tactics. You just riled off a million different things. You have to be listening and never even heard of Kith. let alone know that Kith is now part of the establishment. I mean, that is how in tune you need to be, right? I mean, you need to be in it to be advanced in all of it. The end. I would argue that one of the biggest things that's going on at VaynerMedia is as we go into 2026, I keep talking internally with my leaders.

23:14First time I'm saying this publicly, I want to give you a scoop. Like, there's going to be, who are going to be the winners of the AI era AORs, right? And all I keep saying internally is like, we're going to be the winner of the AI era AORs. what do you need to do to be a great agency in that era? I would say pop culture strategy is at the tippy top. Agreed. That's amazing. Yeah. Listen, I watch way too much reality TV, so I'm in a good place. So I'm excited. But you are in a good place. It's funny, Nima, who works at VaynerX, director and strategist and creative, he was on a reality show. He's deep in the Bravo culture.

23:49We talk about it all the time when we look at the metrics, Like understanding what's going on with Love Island the last 90 days and understanding how to incorporate it into your ethos, whether it's product, marketing, comms, engagement, even something we call Cassie, commenting as creative, leaving comments as a brand, you know, in certain places on the internet was incredibly fruitful for business results. And when I say that what I just rattled off, both Love Island, deep cut Love Island knowledge, and the concept of Cast C, comments as creative, leaving comments on Love Island content as a brand, when you know, not just ha ha ha, but you make a joke that's an inside baseball Love Island joke.

24:31when I say that has business impact, it is not lost on me that 99.99999 % of people in Madison Avenue Fortune 5000 land are not fully like either don't believe or don't even understand what I'm saying there. This is the great opportunity of the Madison Avenue ecosystem. We are about to reset at a level that people have no comprehension of. And the people that are actually into popular culture, and when I say popular culture, by the way, I mean every one of the niches. What do 60 to 80-year-old Mexican-American grandmas give a fuck about right now? If you don't know those Nutellas and Novellos and all those things, like if you don't know those things, right, then you don't know how to market to them.

25:16Totally. I got to tell you, I was blown away. When I saw where I live that there were Love Island watch parties at bars and restaurants in person. I was like, every market needs to lock in on this crap. This is not like just some show on Peacock. This is like cultural movement here. It is wild. If you knew like I did, which is why I did all those podcasts. This is not where I went with it for me personally. But if you knew six years ago that comedians skewing right, we're going to become cultural icons, SEC, frat boy like culture well and you had a brand to sell to 15 to 35 year old males you would fucking annihilate yeah i mean it's like hock to a how the hell it's like if you knew that that type of person was going to resonate with america it's like yeah that's let me break that down a little bit though that was a viral moment right we've seen that before right like double rainbow the cold play whatever yeah i'm talking about you know what's so funny we just did something that might help a ton of marketers.

26:22Me talking about the overall genre of Southern, SEC, sorority, frat, comedians, the Theo Vons, the Schultzes, like Shane Gillis, I talked about a half decade movement that a brand could really, really lean into. You talked about, rightfully so, I'm glad you did this, about a micro moment of a trend. Many brands that we work with and friends that I have that don't work with me, but I have a lot of relationships in the industry, they get worried that everything is a hot to a thing. Gary, I don't want to follow trends because it's over. I'm like, no, no. A hot to a moment, to your point, or whatever other moment, becomes the seed of an eight-year movement.

27:10Right? So I'm recapping a six-year movement that has happened, and you're referencing a viral moment that could have, you know, obviously someone could have jumped in there quickly, done something, but there are two very different things. But unless you play the hot to a thing and understand the hot to a thing, you'll never get the long-term thing if you're on the sidelines. I don't know how to surf or I'm a surfer, but I feel this could be a good analogy. How the fuck are you going to catch the big wave if you're not in the fucking water trying to catch up, like waiting for it and catching all the little waves?

27:45100%. And they all kind of tie into each other. I'm sorry, hold on. I got a clip. I need that for my presentation. I like that. That's it right there. If a brand scared because they don't want to Gary, we don't want to waste our time jumping on every trend that lasts an hour. Well, what about when it becomes the trend? And they marry each other. They're tied to each other, deeply tied to each other. It's, you know, it's, you got to eat the amuse bouche and the appetizer and then the fucking main meal. And then fuck, let's have some dessert. And then fuck, if it's going well, like some after dinner drinks, but like, you know, like the dust.

28:16So like, I don't understand. And I do understand, actually, we started this podcast this way. The last 70 years of business in marketing land on Madison Avenue, we have used good working media dollars to disguise bad creative. But we couldn't see it because it was predominantly done on television and on billboards and in print. And now we live in an era where we can see it. And, man, does that need an adjustment. This has been amazing, incredible. I'm a bigger fan of you now than even before. everybody go out there if you haven't bought already by day trading attention i'm not just saying this because he's here i'm telling you this thing breaks down every kind of content format it is incredible book day trading attention go out there and get it gary you are awesome thank you for doing this and appreciate you i wish you well