A tale of two cities: London’s lesson for New York’s first Muslim mayor

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30Search for PostGeorge The Times wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00Listen now or search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:11When Zoran Mamdani won the election to become the next mayor of New York City, he expressed a sense of relief. More than one million Muslims know that they belong.

1:24Not just in the five boroughs of this city, but in the halls of power.

1:32No more will New York be a city where you can traffic in Islamophobia and win an election. And as he wrapped up his victory speech, he walked off stage to a Bollywood song.

1:48It was a historic result. New York's first Muslim mayor, born in Uganda. But for Mamdani's critics, his victory has set off alarm bells. On election night, President Trump's ally and former advisor Steve Bannon made a very particular warning. This is going to be the wokest city on planet Earth. This guy, Mandami, is a neo-Marxist and a jihadist. Think about the red-green alliance that we've talked about for a long time, that Trevor Loudon and Frank Gaffney and Raheem Kassam warned you that Sadiq Khan was the model of that in London. And look what he's turned London into. That's what New York City is going to be London in less than 10 years.

2:29I think in about five years. London and its Muslim mayor, Sadiq Khan, have long been invoked by Donald Trump and his supporters as a cautionary tale of what could happen here in the U.S. From the BBC, I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. And I'm Tristan Redman in Paris. And today on The Global Story, in a tale of two cities, we speak with London's mayor about how he became a MAGA target and what that might mean for New York.

3:07Back in September at the U.N. General Assembly, I remember hearing Donald Trump on a grand stage say this about London's mayor. I look at London where you have a terrible mayor, terrible, terrible mayor. And it's been so changed, so changed. When he was elected in 2016, Sadiq Khan probably didn't realise that he'd become so famous in the United States. I may live rent-free inside President Donald Trump's head, but I can reassure you he does not live rent-free inside my head. We'll be speaking to Khan a little later in this episode, but first we wanted to understand who Khan is and how he became a favourite topic for Donald Trump.

3:49So we called Tim Donovan. For two decades, Tim was the political editor of BBC London That's the local London news station. And he followed Sadiq Khan's career closely. Sadiq Khan, I think perhaps in comparison to Mundani, is, I think, a more conventional, more mainstream politician. I think everyone's saying that Mundani was unknown a few months ago. His rise has been meteoric. It's been radical. It's been dynamic. It's been extraordinary. Sadiq Khan had had a more conventional political rise. He'd been a member of parliament for 10 years and had achieved kind of junior ministerial rank. So there was slightly a different impact that their arrival in their respective cities had.

4:33Certainly there was, I think, a huge pride felt by London that it had elected its very first or the very first Muslim mayor in a major European city. But he was someone that people had some knowledge of, familiarity of. And I think, as I say, he was a more conventional and I think more mainstream in how he approached his politics, his tactics and his strategies and very much a kind of, you know, a creature of his party. Well, Tim, Sadiq Khan has been around now for nine years, I think, as mayor. I mean, that's a long time in political terms. It almost feels as though he's sort of part of the furniture in London these days.

5:10So it's hard to remember, looking back, how it all started for him. What was his message? How did he portray himself when he was elected in 2016? We had had eight years, two terms of Boris Johnson as Conservative mayor before he went on, obviously, to sort of bigger political things. Sadiq Khan positioned himself to get a nomination to the left of the sort of centrist front runner and picked up the votes of the unions, stood on a platform of tackling poverty, more affordable housing, cheaper transport services was a fundamental thing about like freezing fares and very much ushering in, I think, a fresh start.

5:53But he very much arrived with the strategy of saying we're going to get London back on its feet and we're going to make London more affordable for the people who live there, which has a big echo of what we've just seen over the last few weeks in the States and what Mamdani is offering. Tim, I want to describe to you a little bit how we have seen Mamdani portrayed by some of his critics throughout this mayoral campaign, and in particular how his identity as a Muslim was used as a scare tactic. There were references to Mamdani as a jihadi. His primary opponent, Andrew Cuomo, the former governor of New York, did not dispute suggestions during a radio interview that Mamdani would cheer on another 9-11.

6:42God forbid another 9-11. Can you imagine Mamdani in the seat? I could. He'd be cheering. another problem. There was this political, I guess you could call it political cartoon, a political imagery that made the rounds on social media of a red airplane emblazoned with the words Momdani that was headed towards a building that said New York City, a clear reference to 9-11. And we saw conservative commentators share this imagery on social media. It felt like that was a big flavor of the campaign here in the United States. Was that at all the flavor of attacks you recall seeing directed at Sadiq Khan during his 2016 campaign or subsequent campaigns?

7:29There are obvious echoes of what happened to Sadiq Khan when he first sought election in 2016. Now, no, nobody, none of his political opponents ever suggested that Sadiq Khan would cheer if there was a repeat of 7-7, which was the terrorist attack here in London in 2005. So nothing compared with what Mondani faced. But in London, it came pretty close a few days before the campaign. The conservative opponent of Sadiq Khan, Zach Goldsmith, wrote an article in a newspaper accompanied by a big photograph of the bus destroyed in that 7-7 terror attack in 2005. And the headline, you know, effectively saying, are we really going to let Sadiq Khan control our city when he's part of a party who thinks terrorists are our friends?

8:25Now, that one level that was designed to reflect on the Labour leader at the time, Jeremy Corbyn, who had links to Palestinian groups and there were accusations of anti-Semitism running at the time. But again, it was suggestive. It was largely innuendo, but no one was left in any doubt that it was meant to suggest that he was unfit to run a capital and he would make this capital less safe. And so just to be clear, Sadiq Khan's opponent during that 2016 campaign, Zach Goldsmith, he in no ways sort of ran on this anti-Muslim sentiment directly himself. Zach Goldsmith was careful not to make direct accusations other than to say that serious issues or questions were being raised by these various articles.

9:16and he was always adamant there was nothing Islamophobic or racist about it, although there were other conservative figures, Muslim figures in the conservative ranks particularly, who had no doubt that it was a sort of Islamophobic, racist campaign, albeit kind of dog whistle, as I said, done through innuendo a lot of it. But Londoners voted in the ballot box. London has elected its first Muslim mayor. When the results of the voting were revealed at City Hall, Sadiq Khan had won in a landslide. So when Sadiq Khan is elected mayor of London in 2016, I mean, he probably didn't realise that he was going to become this kind of internationally known figure.

9:57He probably thought he was going to remain a sort of local politician. That didn't turn out to be the case because Donald Trump got hold of things and he became quite well known. When did Sadiq Khan first land on Donald Trump's radar? I recall that Sadiq Khan first came across President Trump's radar in his first term when Khan criticised Trump's immigration policies. I think Donald Trump has ignorant views about Islam. Donald Trump has said should he be elected the president of the United States of America, he would ban Muslims from attending America. And my concern is he's playing into the hands of extremists.

10:39Clearly, they haven't forgotten each other. Across the pond in the UK, President Donald Trump has once again reignited his years-long feud with London Mayor Sadiq Khan. On his recent state visit here. I think the mayor of London, Khan, is among the worst mayors in the world. And on a visit to Scotland before that. I'm not a fan of your mayor. Why not? I think he's done a terrible job. the mayor of London, but a nasty person. And then before the United Nations, President Trump absolutely laid into Khan as a terrible, terrible mayor. Now they want to go to Sharia law, but you're in a different country.

11:22You can't do that. Both the immigration and their suicidal energy ideas will be the death of Western Europe. To which Khan riposted. I think people will be wondering what it is about this Muslim mayor who leads a liberal, multicultural, progressive, successful city that means I appear to be living rent-free inside Donald Trump's head. Living rent-free inside Trump's head. I've got a little hit list here for you, actually, Tim, of some things that President Donald Trump has said about Sadek Khan. So we've got dumb, we've got incompetent, we've got disaster. Oh, sorry, very dumb. Excuse me. Very dumb.

12:10Disaster, national disgrace, stone-cold loser. I'm just wondering, how did those kinds of insults go down with the Londoners who voted for Khan? I mean, this was nothing other than great news, burnishing Sadiq Khan's credentials, raising his status enormously, even in his own capital, in his own country, to have President Trump, you know, landing in Britain and firing off his stone cold loser and other barbs. That remains the case now. Many Londoners will feel the same as Sadiq Khan, and he is losing very few votes at all by allowing this row, this battle to continue. I do think that it's slightly lost its impact and its relevance.

12:58It's a row that feels a little bit playground now. And at a time when you have national leaders like the British leader, Sir Keir Starmer, being pragmatic and emollient and flattering to deal with Donald Trump. I just I feel the kind of positioning of Sadiq Khan over Trump has got less relevance. I am so intrigued to hear you say that it's lost its relevance there a bit in London, because on this side of the Atlantic, I will say particularly in MAGA world amongst conservative activists and politicians, the fear of London has only grown over the last nine years. I feel that repeatedly London is being seen as the cautionary tale.

13:45You alluded to this earlier, but at the UN General Assembly, even President Trump accused the mayor of trying to instate Sharia law in London. And we should be clear, there is no effort by him to instate Sharia law, as the law of the land there in London, that there are Sharia councils. These are religious advisory councils. They deal with things like marriages and divorce, but they do not carry any real actual legal weight there in the United Kingdom. Is that right? The suggestion of London going to Sharia law is genuinely not something that has crossed. Yeah. You know, the mainstream, you know, sort of media hasn't crossed the radar here.

14:26There are Sharia councils. There is a large Muslim population in the capital. There are councils, they deal mainly with issues of finance and I think arbitration of marriages. They have no legal recognition here. And as government ministers have pointed out, there is no there's no intention that they they should. Sadiq Khan has never endorsed or encouraged it. It feels like something that interestingly kind of reveals more about the audience in the United States, I think, than in London. because I genuinely think that it was a big surprise to a lot of people and very hard to take seriously. But clearly something has emerged here that leads Donald Trump and other US politicians to believe that the capital's bigger and growing Muslim population is leading sort of to parallel practices and no-go areas.

15:22I think certainly the view from City Hall and Sadiq Khan, But I think the view from a lot of Londoners across a lot of parties would be that London is not suffering those extremes of community or tensions or problems. Momdani's positions on Israel and the war in Gaza gained a lot of headlines here in the United States. He refused during his campaign to denounce the phrase globalize the intifada. He has been critical of Israel for many years. And I want to know how much Israel or Khan's track record on Israel and the war in Gaza has factored into politics there. Yeah, it's quite difficult to distinguish in this respect between Sadiq Khan as a Labour mayor of London with the Labour government nationally.

16:14A lot of people feel that Labour have been very slow to react to the unfolding situation in Gaza, and there is a feeling and suggestion that they may lose votes to the left. Sadiq Khan has been slightly ahead of the game in recognising the unfolding humanitarian crisis and being prepared to describe recent events in Gaza as genocide. Broadly, in the capital, he has, I think, managed to keep united people of all faiths. And I think he's gone out of his way to reassure people in the Jewish faith, as well as the Muslim faith, over violence, over attacks, which have spiked over the last couple of years.

17:15Tim, when Asma and I have been talking about this story, we were both struck by the fact that it seems like both Sadek Khan and Zoramandani in the United States have both kind of made political capital to some extent from their identities. In Sadek Khan's electoral campaigns, as you've described them, you know, it's been useful to him to have been this target of Donald Trump. It's raised his profile. But we were also wondering, If actually, in some respects, these two mayors are actually gifts to their political opponents, their identities make them useful bogeymen, if you will, for their political opponents.

18:00What do you make of that as an idea? I think that's, yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Let me turn it around as a question almost. What are we to make of the fact that their political opponents in both cases are so keen to alight on the innuendo to do with their faith and their identity? You know, I find that quite mystifying, but I can see that it can work as a political strategy in a city which hasn't had a Muslim mayor before. Or, you know, I wonder whether Sadiq Khan saw and understood the pressures that might exist here and has successfully manoeuvred around them and shifted, maybe perhaps become more moderate, moved to the centre ground and made absolutely clear that he is seen as speaking to and reaching out to people of all faith.

18:59I suppose I just posit that question. It is so interesting, isn't it? I wonder about the pressures and the fairness of those pressures on Muslim politicians. Are they almost being pressurised to deny aspects of their faith or to play it down in some capacity? Can they freely celebrate it? It was a very clear message. Wow, that I have been able to come from this faith and this background. Social class is equally important in his story to become the mayor of London. That says so much about this city. Would he say the same now? Does he feel that he'd advise a young Muslim man or woman that this route was the one for them, given the kind of difficulties that he has had to face as mayor over the last three terms?

19:46Coming up, we hear from London's mayor himself.

19:56In 2016, a 22-year-old known as Posh George was jailed in the US for wire fraud. Standing by his side when he was arrested was Nigel Farage. Join me, Gabriel Pogan, from The Sunday Times for a wild ride through the worlds of politics, crypto and crime. It's in our new podcast series, Pos George, The Criminal Behind Farage. Search for Pos George The Times wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Simon Jack. I'm Zing Zing. And together we host Good Bad Billionaire, The podcast exploring how some of the wealthiest people on the planet made their money. And we are back with a new season. From sporting superstars to music moguls and celebrity CEOs.

20:40We'll be taking a closer look at the lives and fortunes of some of the world's richest people. And asking you to decide if they're good, bad or just another billionaire. Good, bad billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now or search for Good, Bad, Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

21:02Mayor, I wanted to dive in and ask you that London and New York, the two largest cities in the United States as well as in the United Kingdom, will now both be led by mayors who are Muslim. Immigrants are the children of immigrants. And this is happening at a time in which there has also been a rather forceful rightward lurch in the United States as well as to some degree in the UK. How does that affect you as mayor? Do you have any advice for Mamdani? Well, it's very important. I'll begin by congratulating Zoran. His family, he must be really proud, his team, but also as importantly, New Yorkers, because they've chosen hope over fear.

21:41They've chosen unity over division. And there are many similarities between New York and London. We're both incredibly diverse, multicultural, liberal, progressive, and successful. And that's, frankly speaking, why we're the antithesis and why we're hated by people like President Donald Trump. And what's remarkable about both London and New York is our citizens have almost said it's irrelevant, the religion that I am or that Zoran is. Have you all spoken since the election results last night? Well, I've texted him, but I know from personal experience, you're bombarded with thousands of messages.

22:22I'm sure he'll respond in due course. He's probably sleeping as we speak, which is, you know, fair enough. Mayor, you and also your city of London are broadly characterized by President Trump and his MAGA base of supporters as a cautionary tale of what might happen in New York. I want to know from you, what is your view of why you've become so popular amongst the MAGA movement? I'm not sure if the MAGA movement have ever been to London. I'm quite clear we are, in my view, and I say this with apologies to Zohar, the greatest city in the world. We've seen by the way that we should be a great source of joy to those listening to this who are MAGA supporters.

23:03But in this show alone, more Americans applying to be citizens of our great country come to London than ever before. More American students come to universities in London than ever before. So we're doing something right. We've also seen some of these attacks, though, be about the economy, that businesses will flee. And we've heard warnings about crime and safety. Mayor, I want to ask you about that because this is something that we have heard time and again about London, is that the reality is some statistics show that crimes recorded against people have increased during your tenure. If we look at the years from June 2015 through March of 2025, we have seen an uptick, particularly on the issue of knife crime.

23:42What is your response to that? And I'm quite cognizant of the fact that there may be people listening to this in America or around the world who've never been to London. So it's important I impart some facts about London. So, for example, when you compare the homicide rates, which is an objective way to measure crime in London versus per capita, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago or Paris, Toronto, Madrid, Berlin. They're less in London than those great cities. Burklaries come down over the last nine years. Knife crime has come down. Those going to hospital has been reduced from crime. Personal robbery is down.

24:27Personal theft is down. So I'll give you another example of that. Can I ask you, though, just briefly, because the BBC's own reporting has shown that, according to the Office for National Statistics, that there has been an increase from 2015 through 2025, which broadly correlates. And if we talk about, you know, sexual offenses, theft from the person. Yes. The Office for National Statistics, they said in the most recent report, you are less likely to be the victim of violence in London than the rest of the country. That's why it's really important to rebut some of the nonsense about London. And by the way, don't be surprised if you also have lies being told about New York.

25:05Now they've chosen Zohran Mamdani to be their mayor. But Londoners know the difference, just like New Yorkers know the difference. Well, Mayor, the president of the United States is not just using you as a foil. You have over the years been willing to also challenge him and publicly feud with him. I think many Americans will remember that you allowed the city of London to fly this giant diaper clad Trump baby blimp to fly over London when the president made his first visit to your city. You have described him as being a racist, a sexist, misogynistic, Islamophobic. Why are you attacking him rather than ignoring him?

25:44One of the things I learned in the playground is when somebody tries to bully you, stand up for yourself. I do want to ask with the benefit now of, let's say, nine years in this office, I have read that you have had risks to your personal safety, that you have had to elevate the high levels of personal safety you have. I imagine that that takes a toll on you personally. I'm wondering how you've weighed that and what's that meant to you? One of the concerns I have about talking about the personal experience, the personal impact, being back to my family is it may put off somebody else from wanting to be the mayor, working in politics and so forth.