Is the American century over? Your questions answered

0:00Jeremy Bowen:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

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0:38This week, as the United States celebrates 250 years since its founding, we here at The Global Story have been marking the moment, too, with a very special series exploring the surprising and often hidden ways that the United States has shaped the modern world.

0:54Jeremy Bowen:Is the world a better place for having the United States in it? Interesting question. I think I have to have enough pride in my country to say yes. I feel like the American dream is alive, but not well.

1:05Asma Khalid:I believe that future historians will look back at this very time and conclude that it was the beginning of the end of American empire. The changes happening in China's economy represent a real threat to the United States' geopolitical hegemony. I was in Kenya and I had to choose between the two. I would choose America. I don't know why. I guess it's my first love. And today we hear from you. Hi, this is John from Houston, Texas. This is Sonia from Canada. I am Suelto Mindia. I am Masir Saina from Sao Paulo, Brazil. From the BBC, I'm Tristan Redman in London. And I'm Asma Khaled in Washington, D.C.

1:47And today on The Global Story, in collaboration with the Global News Podcast, we answer your questions about how America has shaped the world.

2:02Asma Khalid:All right. Well, I'm pleased to say that today we're doing something a little bit different here on The Global Story. Normally, and regular listeners know this, we do a deep dive on one story every single day. And along with our sister podcast, the Global News Podcast, where you can go for the latest news headlines every single day, twice a day, We are teaming up today at the end of our special week of episodes on America's 250th anniversary. We're doing a collab to answer questions from our combined audiences. And I'm pleased to say that we have some Global News Podcast input here with us today in the studio.

2:41Asma Khalid:Celia Hatton, welcome back to the show. Thank you very much. And Celia, I will say, you know, regular listeners of the Global Story Podcast will, of course, have heard you. You've been a guest on our show. And of course, listeners of the Global News Podcast, the show that you host, will know you. But for anyone who may be a new listener, could we have you just introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about what you do in your specific area of expertise. Sure. So my reporting background lies in China. I was a correspondent inside China for 15 years, the last few years with the BBC. and then I had 10 years being regional editor, focusing on Asia Pacific for the BBC here in London before I became a full-time presenter.

3:23I should say too that I'm Canadian, so I'm sure you'll be hearing that a little bit today because it definitely factors into my thinking about the US 250th anniversary. Wonderful to have you with us.

3:35Asma Khalid:Well, I'm also pleased to say we're joined by BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen. For the listeners who are joining us for the first time, Jeremy, How would you introduce yourself?

3:45Jeremy Bowen:Well, I've been a BBC journalist now for my entire working life, which is 42 years. And I've been most of that time a foreign correspondent. So I suppose I'd introduce myself by saying I have had a hand in the reporting of most of the major world stories since the late 1980s. And as for America, well, I have worked in Washington, but I've also studied in Washington. And Jeremy, is it accurate that you've reported from more than 90 countries? That's the folklore I hear around here at the BBC. Well, you know, if you actually average that up per year, it's not very many. I mean, it's still impressive to me.

4:25So welcome back to the show.

4:27Asma Khalid:Let's drive straight in with some questions then. We have one from our listener, John, in Texas. And here's what John has to say. Hi, this is John from Houston, Texas. I suggest you contrast how the outside world views the USA today versus in the two decades following World War II. The changes have been radical. Jeremy, over the course of our lifetimes, how has the way the United States is perceived around the world changed?

4:55Jeremy Bowen:What's interesting, the question was about the two decades, and I suppose those two decades, 1945 to 1965, were in a sense the era of American ascendancy in so many things, because they emerged from the Second World War, unlike their European allies, not just with their industrial base intact. it was enhanced. Whereas, you know, poor old Britain where we're sitting was bankrupt. America was booming. And it was certainly a time when America's prestige was high, when people in Europe really admired what the Americans had achieved. There was, of course, as well, martial aid, the Marshall Plan, which helped rebuild Europe after the destruction of the Second World War.

5:41Jeremy Bowen:But America had become a world power in the Second World War. And they continue to use that power after the Second World War. They didn't go back to the isolation that they'd had previously, right back to the foundation of the Republic 250 years ago. So I think if you were sitting somewhere in West Germany, where the Americans were pouring in money, rebuilding industry, America probably looked pretty good. And you'd go drinking Coca-Cola and maybe trying your first burger or something like that. But if you were in Iran in 1953, when the British and the Americans unseated, pretty much democratically elected president, or if you were in Guatemala or other parts of Latin America, where America was putting its interests first, second, third, and fourth, that really was America first, then you would have different views.

6:34Jeremy Bowen:And of course, by 1965, that was after the assassination of Kennedy, America was getting very involved in Vietnam and President Johnson, his successor, escalated that. So after 65, that's when, you know, America, the very flawed world power, killing loads of people abroad in the interests of what, anti-communism or whatever reason they were giving at the time. And of course, with turmoil at home by the 1960s because civil rights movement, assassinations. So yeah, on some levels, America was probably at its apogee in those years of 45 to 65. But the seeds of what you might say they've become were always very much there.

7:17Jeremy Bowen:Maybe it goes with the territory if you are the global hegemon.

7:20Asma Khalid:When you travel around the world now to various different conflict zones, do people speak differently about the United States to how they used to? Or is it much the same?

7:29Jeremy Bowen:I mean, never mind traveling around the world, you just walk out of this building in central London, you'll find people whose perceptions of the United States, British people, have changed massively in the years of Donald Trump. Of course they have. The U.S. is not seen by many people in this country anymore as an ally. But I think over the years, for me personally, I have to say, being exposed to, in a way, the American dream, a sense of possibility and optimism that certainly for the privileged people I was mixing with in Washington, D.C., was absolutely nothing. We had nothing of a sort in this country.

8:06Jeremy Bowen:For me, going to the United States in the early 1980s broadened my horizons enormously and gave me a sense of what might be possible in life that I don't think I would have had had I stayed in grimy old Britain, which in the early 1980s was not a very happy place. Let me take us on to our next question. We have talked a lot on our show, and Celia, I'm sure you all have as well on the Global News Podcast about the changing world order and how the United States in this second Trump term is taking a more isolationist approach to foreign policy. And we have a message here from Sonia in Canada. Let's take a listen.

8:46Hi, Asma and Tristan. This is Sonia from Canada. As a close neighbor to the States, the last 10 years or so has been really interesting and somewhat concerning to observe. What has contributed to the U.S. becoming more insular and isolationist in recent years? How is this more isolationist path going to shape the country in the years to come? In what ways could the U.S. become stronger or weaker? I feel that we must go first to your fellow Canadian, Sonia, and that is Celia Hatton. From your perspective, how do you see the wider impact of an isolationist United States? Asma, it's a good question.

9:23And I kind of have to go back to something that Jeremy said a few moments ago. He was talking about how in the past, you know, the United States was seen by many countries as a strategic ally, that the United States was there. And it's interesting listening to Sonia ask these questions about why the United States has become more isolationist. You know, when I think about Canada and the reactions of Canadians to Donald Trump coming into the White House for a second term, all of those pronouncements sort of crouched as jokes that Canada was going to become the 51st state. I still remember the real fear almost that kind of rippled through Canada.

10:03And it wasn't just that Donald Trump said it once or twice. It kept coming up again and again. In his truth social comments, he would say it on camera. He said it to Justin Trudeau, the then prime minister. And so -

10:17Jeremy Bowen:Governor Trudeau. Exactly. Governor Trudeau. He didn't even give him the title. I remember that summer, just after Donald Trump had come back into office, I went home for my annual summer trip back to Canada. and I walked into a grocery store called Piconi's, which is a famous grocery store where I'm from. And like many stores in Canada, it had been completely overhauled so that every single item in the store that was made in Canada was front and center. There were Canadian flags plastered all over the store, and really the entire store had been reworked to become an advertisement for Canadian products.

10:56That's fascinating. Celia, you're almost suggesting that the United States isolationist approach is pushing its neighbor to the north to adopt a somewhat similar, I don't want to extrapolate on that, but a somewhat similar approach, at least when it comes to economics. So this kind of attitude is almost contagious, this kind of feeling that you need to kind of put up the hatches and just support your own. I think just emotionally, things have really changed with this isolationist bent. And I think Sonia's right, it's right to kind of focus in on it, because that's been a major change that has happened in the United States.

11:30And it's had huge effects elsewhere.

11:32Asma Khalid:Well, all of this is contributing to the idea that an old world order is coming to an end. There's been a lot of debate about that over the last few months. We have a question on this tack from our listener Swarit in India, and this is what he'd like to know. Hi, I'm Swarit from India. As the USA celebrates 250 years of independence and seeks to shape the international order for the decades ahead, where does India fit into that vision? And can India deepen cooperation with Washington while preserving the strategic autonomy that has traditionally defined its relationship with Russia, Iran and the wider global south?

12:10Asma Khalid:I would love to hear what you guys have to say about it. Thanks.

12:13Jeremy Bowen:Well, I would say that actually, in a sense, the rise of India is part of America's decline. There are other large powers that are rising. You look at India, you know, it's got a growing and very highly educated middle class. It's got a very large population. It's got all sorts of attributes, which in the next 50 odd years, I think they will be as a rising power, one of the countries which America will have to deal with. Can I just a follow up here? Because my sense for the last couple of administrations here in the United States, you can go back to George W. Bush. There was a systematic effort in the United States amongst Republicans and Democrats to court India to balance out the influence of China in the region.

12:56And what I've been struck by in this term is that we don't see that deliberate effort anymore, which makes me wonder where India fits into the equation. I mean, I heard President Trump refer to India, his words, a big tariff abuser. He slapped really significant tariffs on India. I guess my question is just, is it possible in this moment when we talk about a shifting world order to be a country that is, as we've heard Mark Carney of Canada say, a middle power that isn't really aligned with the United States or with China. Do you remember after the Ukraine invasion, India was under real pressure to say where it stood?

13:32You know, was it on Russia's side? Was it on Ukraine's side? And that's difficult because India gets a lot of its energy from Russia. And at the time, Narendra Modi, the prime minister, said, we are not neutral, but we have strategic autonomy, meaning that they kind of change their strategy based on what they need at the time. They said that back in 2022, and other countries have followed. You know, the Europeans are embracing strategic autonomy. Even Mark Carney has said that strategic autonomy is the way to go. And so I think India really has no choice. They need to keep alliances with Iran.

14:04That's where they get oil from. They need to keep alliances with Russia. But then they also need to ship products outside of their borders. And so they need to maintain their close ties with Western countries as well that are going to buy products that are made in India. So they're just a great example of a country that cannot afford to position itself either to one side or another. It's kind of sitting in the middle.

14:27Asma Khalid:We're going to move on to talking a little bit about the American dream. Barbara from California has sent us this. Hi, my name is Barbara Jovanovic. I'm from Novi Sad, Serbia. I grew up and finished my education there and my family still lives there, so I visit frequently. I never imagined that I would move to the U.S. I don't think that was my plan. Immigrating to the United States has obviously opened up a world of opportunities I never would have had in my home country. This is still very much the land of opportunities. I deeply appreciate the idea that if you believe in yourself and you work hard, you can make a positive future for yourself and your family.

15:06And I feel like the U.S. really puts that at a forefront. So yeah, that's me. Thanks for listening.

15:12Asma Khalid:Now, we had a similar message from our listener, Alexandra, who emigrated to the United States from Ukraine, and also from Diana, who arrived in the US from Colombia. And she said, my family moved to the United States in 1987, which is the summer I turned 13. We left Colombia due to insecurity the country was going through at that moment. My parents were the victims of kidnapping by the FARC in 1985. The US offered my husband and I the promise that if we worked hard, we would live comfortably. we did and now enjoy a comfortable life thanks to the opportunities offered and accepted. Jeremy, you've reported, as we've already discussed, from unstable places all over the world, conflict zones.

15:51Asma Khalid:What does the United States mean to people in those places that you visited?

15:57Jeremy Bowen:Generally, in the places where I have worked over the last 30 or 40 years, in many of those places, the Americans were not seen as a positive force because American intervention has had terrible consequences. I've spent many years reporting from different countries in the Middle East. Of course, there are other countries where the Americans were seen as absolutely vital. I lived in Israel for five years in the 90s. And there, America, as it has been until really very recently, was seen as the absolute reliable ally. Now, as for the American dream, of course, America has always been a magnet for immigrants.

16:38Jeremy Bowen:But also for those people who are well-established in the country, one of America's big problems now, and I think it's impacting actually the debates about the potential foreign policy in the next five or ten years, is the dissatisfaction with the fact that many people in the United States no longer feel that that dream is open to them. They are concerned that their kids won't have the standard of living that they had. And the sort of foreign policy corollary of that is the way in which people are questioning being the global policeman, intervening around the place, having huge and very costly military commitments in places which, on the face of it, are not directly impacting on whether or not Americans are safe.

17:26Jeremy Bowen:But it's still costing them a hell of a lot of money at a time when a lot of people are thinking, well, we could do some of that money back here, thanks. So, you know, it's always the case that foreign policy is an extension of domestic issues. And America is no exception.

18:03Asma Khalid:And you can now watch The Global Story on the iHeart app. Catch every brand new episode every weekday. Just tap into iHeart to start watching. And we hope you enjoy the show.