The hostage negotiator’s guide to making deals with Putin’s Russia

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0:30so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn more at schwab.com. Hey there, it's Asma and Tristan here. Hey guys, as we reach the end of 2025, we wanted to bring you a few of our favourite episodes of the podcast since we relaunched in September. That's right, and we will be back in the new year with brand new episodes bringing you stories about where the world and America meet. And we love to hear from you about what you thought about the episodes and other topics we've been looking at. So please message us. Our email address is theglobalstory at bbc.com.

1:07And Tristan, one that I was a big fan of was this episode I did with Roger Karstens. He's the former hostage negotiator for the United States. And Tristan, the thing I found so unbelievably interesting about this was the ways in which hostage negotiation and the skills that he described are so useful in your day-to-day life, particularly when you're dealing with little kids. You laugh, but it's true. I didn't know that. So I really enjoyed this episode, too. I wasn't with you when you did it in Washington. But news of Roger Carsten's great charm did cross the Atlantic. I heard that he was an extraordinarily charming man.

1:49And that really comes across in the episode, too. It's a fascinating interview. So you got to take a listen. Here it is. Donald Trump has prized himself on being the president who ends wars. But there is one conflict he has failed to make much progress on so far. That's Russia's war with Ukraine. The Russian leader Vladimir Putin keeps stonewalling American efforts. One man who has experienced successfully negotiating with Russia and many other U.S. adversaries is Roger Karstens. He was, until earlier this year, the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs. In plain speak, that means he was the guy in charge of bringing home Americans wrongfully detained around the world.

2:36He was first appointed to the job by President Trump in 2020. He spent five years working to free dozens of Americans in often complex deals that took years to negotiate. From the BBC, I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. And today on The Global Story, we speak to Roger Carstens on what it takes to successfully make deals with Russia.

3:10Roger Carstens, it's such a pleasure to have you with us in the studio. Thank you so much for stopping by. My pleasure. Thank you. Glad to be with you. You have sat down with some of the United States' greatest adversaries, Putin's Russia, the Iranian regime, the Taliban. And you've done all this in an effort to ensure that Americans who were taken hostage or wrongfully detained could come back to the United States. I want to know what's your approach when you're in the room. And do any of these negotiations, meetings in the rooms with any of these folks have anything in common? Yeah, I think they have a lot in common.

3:51I think when you sit down with someone who might be an opponent of the United States, it's important to bring your full self. You know, you can't just go in with a mathematical diagram in your head of what you're going to try to offer and what you think they may offer and where you might go. Instead, you also have to bring your intuition. You have to bring your humility. You have to come in and be ready to listen. Because at the end of the day, everyone wants to be heard, to include a dictator who may be holding a U.S. citizen arbitrarily. They still have a story to tell. And if they don't tell that story and they don't feel like they're being heard or listened to, then the negotiation doesn't go that well.

4:31It's something that they taught me in special forces training. It's got to be about listening, engaging, establishing a relationship. And in a way, it doesn't matter who's on the other side of that conversation. Whether they're a partner, an ally, a friend, an enemy, an opponent, your goal is to make a very human connection. So you're talking about being in the room and negotiating, as we say, with sometimes some rather unsavory characters. I remember this phrase that America does not negotiate with terrorists. But isn't that what you ended up doing in this role? Can you walk me through how the United States approach to hostage negotiation changed?

5:13So I think the tagline that we had in my office was essentially that, like, you know, the United States doesn't talk to terrorists, but we do. Oh. And there's a difference between terrorists, and that would be a non-state armed group that, like, you know, JNIM, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and a nation state that's holding your citizens, like Russia, Iran, Venezuela. And with nation states, we're always much more willing to talk to them. But I think in terms of talking to the terrorist groups, my position was built, I should say my former position, the Special Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs, or as we call it, SPIHA.

5:51It was built so that they could— Because everything in this town has a great acronym. You have to give it an acronym, but it's such a long—you choke on saying the title, so you have to truncate it. But yeah, if SPIHA was going to go— So your position was built when? 2015. You spent some time on this with us. as to what the situation was prior to 2015 and what changed or why it changed. In 2012 to 2014, the United States absolutely failed in getting some American citizens out of Syria.

6:22They were taken by ISIS. Okay. And we refused to negotiate with ISIS. We refused to really talk to the families as to what we knew about their loved ones and what we were doing to try to get them back. And by the way, what we were doing was about nothing. We begin with some grim news from Syria. Intelligence officials are investigating a video that was posted online purportedly by ISIS that claims to show that captured U.S. aid worker Peter Kasich has been killed. ISIS released a video. It hasn't yet been verified by U.S. intelligence, but it does appear to show the execution of journalist Stephen Sotloff.

6:58The ISIS video is simply too horrific to show. The man being executed by beheading is James Foley, a freelance journalist kidnapped in northwest Syria on November 22, 2012, Thanksgiving Day. By about 2014, all these Americans had been murdered by ISIS. So, President Obama initiated a hostage policy review. And we came up with the idea that, look, we need a single focal point. that person must be empowered to talk to all the bad guys or the opponents, the adversaries. Even terrorist organizations, even the Islamic State. 100%. And the mandate was that we kept families fully informed to the extent that we could.

7:42And so with that, my office was born, this hostage recovery enterprise, which is what we named it. I want to get into your personal story. You mentioned the special forces a moment ago. I just want to understand how that experience may have translated to what you ended up doing. Yeah, so in special forces, you know, they're looking for someone who, of course, as you might imagine, is comfortable in a chaotic and ambiguous environment. And so there's a selection process that you go through. And selection is not just this three - or four-week-long period where, you know, in my mind, you think you're being evaluated and I'm being an Olympic athlete.

8:18Instead, they're really trying to get into your personality. You might test someone and take them through all these physical efforts. But what you're really trying to do is take a look at a person to see how they interact with other people, how they make decisions, what their mindset is when things are going wrong. And at the end of the day, if you can get someone who's not rigid and linear, who's ethical, even when things are challenging and they have opportunities to not be ethical, someone who can make friends with anyone, but also someone who can flip a switch and try to be a world-class soldier in that split-second moment, then you're looking in a way a jack-of-all-trades.

8:55And so I think the training and then the execution of any special forces missions I had, I think, in a way, kind of strangely well-suited me for SPIHA. And that whether you're talking to the Taliban or you're talking to the Venezuelans or the Russians or the Iranians, when I'm trying to get an American citizen out of one of their jails, I want a personal relationship with that person if I can get it. I want them to trust me, and they really have to trust me. That means I have to be honest with my enemy, my opponents. And if we can get there, then we have a fighting chance to come up with an agreement that will eventually result in bringing someone home.

9:32Roger, we want to focus a bulk of our conversation here on the United States' relationship with Russia and what your experience as the hostage envoy can tell us about the U.S.-Russia relationship. I know when you stepped into that job in 2020, there were a couple of Americans who were still being held hostage in Russia. We were focused at that time on Paul Whelan. Paul Whelan. And Paul Whelan wasn't yet designated as a wrongful detainee when I took the job. He was a former U.S. Marine, became a business executive. And he would travel to Russia as part of his business duties and went back to Russia to attend the wedding of a colleague that he'd met over there.

10:15And during that period, the Russians arrested him and accused him of being a spy. He was the first one while I was in the job that was actually officially declared wrongfully detained by the secretary of state. So early on, the Russians had indicated that they would be willing to trade Victor Boot, who was a very notable arms dealer, arrested in Thailand and sentenced to U.S. jail. Konstantin Yerushchenko, convicted and sentenced for narcotics trafficking. And at a certain point, Maria Butina detained on espionage-like activities. And the Russians wanted them back. And I think early on when I took the job, I could see some paperwork, like in our files, indicating that the Russians were hinting about a swap between all three, two, or one for Paul Whelan.

11:01And shortly afterwards, Trevor Reed was taken. Trevor was arrested in what might be seen as a barroom brawl that took place in Moscow. And the Russians charged that he also became violent with the police officers while en route to the police station. And who is Trevor Reed? Trevor Reed, former U.S. Marine, was visiting his girlfriend on just a personal trip. And I think when something like that happens, you don't just take the case immediately because you actually want to try to figure out the facts. You don't want to take a case and find out later that that person was guilty of what they're being charged with.

11:38But at a certain point, we were able to piece together enough information to come to the conclusion that he was wrongfully detained. How did you determine he was wrongfully detained? Just all the facts of the case. His girlfriend was able to get a video film of the police car. And in taking a look at it, you can see that there was never a moment where the car looked like there was a brawl taking place in the car. witness statements. Eventually, you can paint a picture as to what happened. And then also, you might get a sense that the Russians are going to use them for political leverage. How does the manner in which they were taken tell you what the Russians may have wanted and who you might negotiate with?

12:16It's important to figure out who actually has the key to the jail cell because the conversation is going to be different. If someone's taken in Russia, are you going to be dealing with their Ministry of Foreign Affairs, with their Department of justice, with the intelligence services. If the intelligence services, are you going to be dealing with the FSB, the GRU, or the SVR? I think we determined early on in my office that it was going to be the FSB, the intelligence channels. And so we started to reach out to the Russians and the other side to get a sense of what it is they want. Now, the other side a lot of times doesn't tell you what they want.

12:50They want to just see what you offer, and then they respond. So if we fast forward, Trevor Reed does eventually get released. He is swapped for a drug dealer. And I recall it took place, that swap, in Istanbul, Turkey in 2022. What were the logistics of that swap? I want to understand what it's like to be on the plane, on the tarmac as this all transpires. On the plane flight out, there were people from, of course, my office. There were people from the law enforcement side of the house. Konstantin Yershenko was there, of course. And that's the drug dealer who was being exchanged. Correct. You know, Mr.

13:25Yoshenko, how's your English? You know, speaks perfect English. And I said, hey, do you have an idea what's going on? I think so, but please tell me you're being swapped for this person. We're going to this country. We're going to land in the city. When we land, it's probably going to happen like this. You'll stay here until you're told this. At a certain point, you'll be handed a piece of paper, and you'll be escorted to the other side of the tarmac to link up with your side. So you kind of explain the ground scheme maneuver so that there's not a lot of confusion. So the planes land. You get off the plane and— They're waiting for us.

13:59Okay. And what do you say to your Russian counterpart? Get off the plane and introduce yourself and say, look, here's what we're thinking about doing. What are your thoughts? You know, can we integrate what we're both thinking of and then make this happen in the next, like, 10 or 20 minutes? And that's the conversation we had. And then you see in that movie with Tom Hanks, The Bridge of Spies, where, you know, you settle everything. And then at a certain point, both sides start moving together at the same time to cross each other in the middle and then go off to their respective planes. Did you see Trevor Reed first?

14:32Did you talk to him at all? I did. I saw him first. He's on the Russian plane. Can you share anything about that? I think there's always a little shock. And you have to think that when you see Trevor Reed or you see Brittany Griner, whoever else, hours earlier, they were in a Russian prison with maybe some idea that something might be happening, but maybe not fully comprehending. And so I jump on a plane and put my hand out and say, hey, Trevor Reed, I'm Ambassador Roger Carstens. I'm coming from the U.S. Department of State. On behalf of President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Anthony Blinken, I'm here to take you home.

15:06here's what's going to take place in the next 10 minutes.

15:13And I can explain to him what's about to happen. And at that point, you know, you depart the plane and, you know, go do a few other logistical maneuvers. And then shortly, Trevor gets off the plane and Konstantin Yaroshenko gets off the plane and they cross in the center part. As he crosses a tarmac to board a flight home to America, Reid walks right past Konstantin Yaroshenko, who the U.S. agreed to return in exchange for Reid. You mentioned on the tarmac there in Istanbul, you met your Russian counterpart. What was the Russian Roger Carstens, if I may call him that, what was he like? Very professional.

15:53I'd say he was not much different than me in its own way. I mean, we didn't show up with hardened faces and animus. we actually showed up as two people asked to do a job on behalf of their countries. And so, you know, with a handshake and a conversation, we got down to business.

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17:21Roger, I want to ask you about a case in 2022, which is when the U.S. basketball player, Brittany Griner, was arrested. WNBA star Brittany Griner convicted today on drug charges in Russia, a judge sentencing her to nine years in a penal colony. Griner, detained in Russia for more than five months, found guilty of intentionally smuggling vape cartridges of hashish oil into the country. She was eventually released in exchange for a notorious arms dealer whose nickname was the Merchant of Death. And I want to understand how that deal unfolded. And I've got a lot of follow-ups, but please go ahead.

18:01Brittany was arrested right before Trevor Reed was released. And then we go ahead and conduct the Trevor swap. And now the math doesn't add up. We have Brittany Griner and Paul Whelan. And on their side, they only have Victor Boot, the merchant of death. I see. And so the negotiations at that point rightfully focused on could we somehow make a two-for-one swap happen, they were hinting very strongly that they were going to use Brittany Griner for leverage. And based on Victor Boot, they were very clear, not just during the small short period, but going back years that they wanted to obtain Victor Boot's release.

18:39So Britton Greiner does get released in a one-to-one prisoner swap for Victor Boot. And there was some criticism at the time that the U.S. government agreed to release this notorious arms dealer. And I wonder if you had any moral qualms about this swap. I would say almost every swap we ever did at the very completion of it at the end of the night, after I've seen someone who's innocent, wrongfully detained, getting off in U.S. soil, collapsing into their arms of their loved ones, reconnecting after years of poor treatment. It's like a 30-second high that you cannot really be replaced by anything else.

19:18But by that night, when you look in the mirror after that swap, you never really feel great because you have to do something tough to get your Americans back. It would be nice if the Russians took an American and to get that American back, they demanded that we changed a post office name in Minot, North Dakota to the Vladimir Putin post office. We'd be like, well, that's an easy deal. We'll do that. Instead, they have a maximalist demand to get someone like Victor Booth, a merchant of death. That's hard. And a friend of mine came up with a way of putting it together. He said, look, the moral imperative, meaning getting your innocent American out, outweighs the moral hazard.

19:55The moral hazard being taking a chance that the person that you're trading may go back to a life of crime. Well, can I ask you about that? Because there has been reporting in the interim now that suggests Victor Boot has resumed arms dealing. I don't think he's been very successful. I've read it all. Yeah, the Wall Street Journal has been reporting about that. He's gone from being one of the most successful, notorious arms dealers to being a very not good, not switched on yet. With Yemen and the Hootsies as much. But what you're doing is you're taking someone who was captured in 2007, back when they had flip phones.

20:25By the time he gets out of prison, they've already carved up his network. Other people are doing it. Breaking back into the network is going to be ridiculously hard, if not impossible. But I think when making these cases, again, the moral imperative in the president's mind, certainly in mine, outweighed the moral hazard. And I should note that Viktor Bu reportedly told a Russian news agency that the claims made by the Wall Street Journal are unsubstantiated. Roger, I want to ask you about another very prominent case. Russia's security agency says it has arrested a U.S. journalist working for the Wall Street Journal in Moscow on charges of espionage.

21:04Evan Gershkovich, who was arrested in March of 2023, he is eventually released. Good morning. We are coming on the air with breaking news. Four American citizens detained in Russia have just been released as part of a prisoner swap involving multiple nations. Among those now free, Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich and Marine veteran Paul Whalen. It's a sweeping deal involving 24 prisoners in at least six different countries. And among the Russians freed from Western jails, Vadim Krasikov, an FSB hitman who brazenly gunned down an opponent of the Kremlin in broad daylight in Berlin.

21:41The deal that made this possible was a feat of diplomacy and friendship. In total, 16 political prisoners, including Russian opposition figures, some human rights activists, were released as part of this prisoner swap. And I'm wondering if you can help us understand what was going on at this moment. Was this a situation where hostage release and American foreign policy merged? It might be considered that. I know that we tried to work bilaterally, one-on-one with the Russians, to come up with a solution for Evan Gershkovich and also Kermisheva, Vladimir Karamirza, Paul Whelan. So we're four people that we were very interested in getting back.

22:21But we could find no way that the Russians were going to do that on a one-to-one basis. And that's when we started to look more broadly. Were there people that were our partners and allies who might be willing to take Russian spies that they'd caught and throw them on the negotiating table on our behalf to pull out a bigger deal? President Eisenhower famously said that if you can't solve a small problem, then enlarge it, and then it might be more solvable. So by making the problem bigger, we were able to come up with a solution, whereas if we kept it smaller and bilateral between us and the Russians, it never would have worked.

22:53And so that's when we had to start using, in a way, the foreign policy efforts of the United States government to talk to other countries in an effort to pull this all together. Why were you so keen to get some of these Russians out? And I'm curious. I mean, one leading Russian opposition figure who eventually died in prison, Alexei Navalny. Was he on that list at all? Yeah, so Navalny was someone that we thought about very early on, but were really unable to put him on the big list because of the belief that President Putin would never accept him as a part of a swap. There did come a time when we figured out that President Putin would consider him as a part of a swap, where he eventually jumped onto the list.

23:31And sadly, he passed away before we could execute a swap of that nature. And so I'd say some of the political opponents that came out of Russia, in a way, were trying to counterbalance and account for the loss of Navalny in what could have been maybe a smaller swap. But in a way, you have to be glad that so many people were freed on that one day. So there are, as we speak here, still other Americans being detained by Russia. As you spend more effort, resources, and trying to get citizens back to the United States, there might be some who would say, well, doesn't that actually encourage countries to take them more, knowing that you're so committed to bringing them back?