Was Lindsey Graham the last US foreign policy hawk?

14:29Daniel Bush:And was renamed. It was renamed after Lindsey Graham. You know, this was a moment where this passed with 86 votes in the Senate asthma, which, you know, it does not happen all that often. So a big sign of bipartisan support for this bill and for Lindsey Graham. It wasn't the final passage that could come pretty soon. But it was a moment where Democrats and Republicans came together in a way to honor Lindsey Graham, right, because he had been a champion of this. It passed. And it was notable also, Osmo, because there are fewer and fewer Ukraine champions in the Republican Party. And we'll get into this maybe a little bit later in this conversation.

15:04Daniel Bush:But, you know, especially when Trump took office for the second time, it solidified the anti-interventionist wing of the party as the core sort of ideological group within the Republican parties. There are a lot of MAGA supporters out there who do not want the United States entangled in foreign wars, do not want to see taxpayer dollars go to other countries. And there's a dwindling now group of Republicans in Congress. Lindsey Graham was one of the biggest members of this that said, we need to continue to approach foreign policy from a traditional sense of, you know, the U.S. helping out its allies around the world, even if there isn't an immediate benefit for America.

15:43Daniel Bush:And so Lindsey Graham was a champion of that with Ukraine, really pushed Donald Trump, you know, again and again and again, not to abandon Zelensky, not to abandon Kiev. And we saw this week Republicans and Democrats coming together and sort of honoring that vision.

15:57Alex Holde:I mean, I think it's worth pausing on this idea that Lindsey Graham was such a staunch advocate for Ukraine in its war against Russia, because, as you alluded to, this is not a position that's a given in the modern Republican Party. There are many, many Republicans who are skeptics of U.S. support for Ukraine. Can you help us understand why Graham emerged as such an ardent supporter of Ukraine?

16:23Daniel Bush:Well, Graham came from a sort of what we would now call an old school model of politics, which is that your politics ends at the water's edge. This idea that America has a unique role in the world as a supporter of human rights, a supporter of democracy, a supporter of its allies. And that's something that Mitch McConnell subscribed to and other Republicans that are now almost entirely not in Congress. I mean, they've been replaced by more conservative strain. It was a hawkest range, right? And it's also tied to the war in Iraq, right? A moment in time when Republicans pushed to build democracy abroad that was deeply criticized and it led to a complicated war effort that went on for years and years and years, right?

17:08Daniel Bush:So this is not uncontroversial, but this is the position that Lindsey Graham had for years. And again, that Mitch McConnell and other Republicans had that, you know, U.S. had a basic obligation to provide support for its allies abroad. And now there are fewer and fewer Republicans who share that view.

17:23Alex Holde:Is there anyone left in the Senate?

17:24Daniel Bush:Not a whole lot. There are some, but not a whole lot. And on the other side, you have, you know, your Marjorie Taylor Greene's, your vice president of the United States, J.D. Vance, who was on record before he became vice president, saying Ukraine is not our war and who was a vocal opponent at times of aid to Ukraine. So that is the ascendant wing of the party. But it speaks to Graham's stature in Washington and the Senate and in particular his close relationship to President Trump, that the sanctions bill was able to get through and more broadly that that sort of wing of the party that supports Ukraine has not completely gone away.

18:01Daniel Bush:And of course, one of the last things Lindsey Graham did before he passed away suddenly was a trip to Ukraine. Long time no see. Heavy news. Thank you very much. Happy to see you. How are you? Good. Older.

18:15Alex Holde:Older.

18:15Daniel Bush:Older, Ellen. But no wiser. Which was both symbolic to show his support as one of the more prominent members of the Senate for Ukraine, for Zelensky in particular, and then also to continue the work of the sanctions bill, the Patriot Missile Defense System. I'm pleased to announce, as of about 30 minutes ago, we've reached agreement with the White

18:38Alex Holde:House on a version of the Russian sanctions bill that they will support.

18:44Daniel Bush:It means it's going to become law. You know, the senator going to Ukraine sent a message to the rest of the world that there are still Republicans in Washington and still people close to President Trump who support Kyiv.

18:57Alex Holde:A question that has been on my mind is, with the death of Lindsey Graham, there's a lot of uncertainty about whether that strain of Republican foreign policy still has a place in the current Republican Party and who might pick up the mantle. And I noticed that in the last few days, Laura Loomer, who has been a known skeptic of the war in Ukraine, MAGA influencer, has been in Ukraine, championing Ukraine. And I have a couple of questions about that, but I think for the uninitiated, can you just ever so briefly explain who she is and what her role in the MAGA movement is?

19:43Daniel Bush:Sure. So she's one of a small group of very influential conservatives who have large online followings, who have become prominent members of the MAGA movement, who are also relatively close to the White House and to President Trump. We saw Loomer last year push for the president to make high profile firings and changes to his team at the White House. Those changes went through. Whether or not she deserves full credit is a matter of debate. But she's someone who has positioned herself as being close to President Trump and also having a loyal filing among MAGA supporters. And I should also note she is famous for being a conspiracy theorist in part, right?

20:23Daniel Bush:for championing a lot of conspiracy theories about American government, its role in the world, and so on.

20:29Alex Holde:And has made really vitriolic public statements about Muslims and Islam pretty routinely, I will say.

20:36Daniel Bush:Yes, and that's another part of this, is that there are several big conservative MAGA influencers online who have towed the line or crossed the line into some of the white nationalist rhetoric, and Loomer certainly tied to that.

20:51Alex Holde:So, Laura Loomer traveled to Ukraine. For years, I've been pretty anti-Ukraine.

20:58Daniel Bush:You know, it was a very politicized issue in American politics.

21:03Alex Holde:She visited a monastery that was hit by a Russian drone. She ate at a McDonald's at a burned-out building. I believe she visited a damaged power plant. People love being keyboard warriors and saying things are fake, but they should come themselves.

21:17Daniel Bush:I was once that person, too. But then I decided to come to a war zone and see things for myself.

21:23Alex Holde:And perhaps most notably, she interviewed Vladimir Zelensky, the president of Ukraine. You know, I'll admit I've said some pretty terrible things about Ukraine and terrible things about you as well. Openly on social media, I mocked you. I, you know, was part of the group of people in the United States who was very frustrated by the state of my country. And in the context of this all, she apologized for falling for what she described as Russian propaganda. I just wanted to share with you as somebody who was anti-Ukraine and who did consume a lot of Russian propaganda. I used to write articles for RT.

21:58Alex Holde:I wrote about five articles for RT and I regret doing so. And I've come to realize that I was bamboozled by Russian propaganda. And I came to believe a lot of untrue things about Ukraine. And in fact, send out a message online on X afterwards saying that she can, I'm going to quote her here, see why Lindsey Graham loved Ukraine so much. And she says, I see it now. How do you interpret what she's been up to in Ukraine? And do you see her as someone who might actually take on Lindsey Graham's mantle? And I ask that because she did an interview with Politico Playbook this week in which she suggested maybe that person has to be me.

22:38Alex Holde:And I think for anyone who sort of understood Laura Loomer's past foreign policy, it was a real sort of eyebrow raising moment.

22:45Daniel Bush:It was certainly a sort of shocking 180 that surprised everyone. The trip to Ukraine, all the rhetoric you just laid out was not something that I think anyone would have expected from Loomer. A couple of different ways to interpret it, to think about it. But one thing is to say that when it comes to President Trump's foreign policy in his second term, he has been squarely opposed to a lot of key parts of his constituency when it comes to these powerful, influential MAGA influencers who have made the argument for years that America should, again, disentangle itself from foreign conflict, be anti-interventionist, focus on economic issues here at home.

23:27Daniel Bush:and President Trump starting a war with Iran, intervening in Venezuela to remove the leader there, and obviously supporting Israel. All of those things have been diametrically opposed to key parts of his base, including Loomer. And that has been difficult for the president. And what we saw from Loomer was instead of continuing to move away from the president of foreign policy, continuing to drive a bigger and bigger wedge between Trump and parts of the MAGA base. She did this unexpected reversal and moved closer to him on foreign policy and said, well, actually, maybe we shouldn't fully abandon Ukraine.

24:04Daniel Bush:You know, actually, maybe there is something to...

24:07Alex Holde:But you seem to go further, I would say, than what I've heard from the president of the United States himself in the past.

24:11Daniel Bush:She did, and she certainly was advocating for more involvement in Ukraine than perhaps President Trump is comfortable with. So, you know, is she trying to push Trump in that direction? Is she trying to signal to her supporters, you know, I've been critical of Trump in the past in foreign policy, but maybe he was more right in the end than I was willing to admit. It's a little unclear. We can get in her head, certainly. You know, I do think it's important not to overstate her influence with Trump, because coming out of her visit to Ukraine, there's been a lot of speculation about, will she now convince President Trump to suddenly turn around and start giving Ukraine billions in funding?

24:47Daniel Bush:That's unlikely. President Trump has a pretty clear idea of what he wants to do with Ukraine, which is, you know, he wants an end to the war. He's unwilling to continue to fund the war effort in Ukraine. And that's about as far as he's willing to go. And is Loomer's one visit to Kiev going to change all that? Probably not.

25:07Alex Holde:Daniel, do you see Laura Loomer as being the sort of future Lindsey Graham on foreign policy? Even as I say that question out loud, I'm someone who has covered Washington for a while. I hear the inner skeptic in my own voice as I ask that question. But if it's not her, let's say, is there anyone really in the current Republican Party who has the ability to do what Lindsey Graham did in the Republican Party? Or is that part of the party just gone now?

25:41Daniel Bush:That's a$64 ,000 question that will be answered in the 2028 Republican primary race. That's when we're going to see this debate really take hold. But the sort of the avatars of this debate, at least right now, are probably going to be J.D. Vance and Marco Rubio. You know, the two people widely expected to be the front runners for the Republican presidential nomination should they both decide to run. J.D. Vance represents what had been the loomer wing, you know, of the party that was more anti-interventionist, more critical of U.S. aid abroad. Marco Rubio represents that dwindling Lindsey Graham wing of the party that by and large, you know, has held a more traditional approach, been more hawkish, right, about U.S.

26:23Daniel Bush:intervention abroad. You know, so Marco Rubio stands out.

26:27Alex Holde:Marco Rubio still does echo a lot of that.

26:30Daniel Bush:And there are some senators on the Republican side of the aisle still who hold fast to that idea.

26:40Daniel Bush:but again they're a diminishing group

26:46Daniel Bush:certainly the advance wing of the party is ascendant but that debate will play out because it's going to be an open primary there are going to be many republicans are going to run and certainly you know we can expect a few of them to be more in that traditional mode, make that argument, perhaps even specifically when it comes to Ukraine, argue that the U.S. should step up and do more. Will they end up winning that debate? Who knows?

27:22Alex Holde:It was a real pleasure speaking with you. Thanks for taking the time.

27:25Daniel Bush:Likewise.

27:34Alex Holde:That was the BBC's Washington correspondent, Daniel Bush. And earlier, we also heard from the documentary filmmaker, Alex Holder. And folks, that's it for our show today. As always, we love hearing from listeners. So drop us a note. You can send us your thoughts, your questions, and even sometimes your complaints. Our email address is theglobalstory at bbc.com. And reminder that here at The Global Story, we dive deep every weekday on one big story that tells us where the world and America meet. If you're also looking for a way to catch up on the latest news headlines, then we recommend checking out our sister show, the Global News Podcast.

28:09Alex Holde:Our show today was produced by Aaron Keller and Zandra Ellen. It was edited by Martine Powers and Sam Bonham and mixed by Travis Evans. Our digital producer is Matt Pintus. Our senior news editor is Chyna Collins. And I'm Asma Khaled. Thanks as always for spending some time with us and we'll talk to you again tomorrow.

28:44Alex Holde:I'm Simon Jack. I'm Zing Zing. And on Good Bad Billionaire, we're exploring the life and fortune of music megastar Sir Paul McCartney. Macca. As one of the primary songwriters in The Beatles and with an extensive solo career, His work generates vast and continuous royalty streams. But were song royalties alone enough to break the billion? And earn him the title of the first British billionaire rock star? Find out in Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service. Listen now, search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.