What the former prince Andrew’s arrest means for the Royal Family

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1:08Sean Coughlan:It's probably not how the former Prince Andrew planned to spend his 66th birthday. On Thursday evening in the English countryside, two dark SUVs made their way through the rain as they left a police station. And illuminated by camera flashes, Andrew appeared to be trying to lie down in the back seat. Earlier in the day, he had been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. And although the police have let Andrew go home, he is still under investigation. The arrest came after police said they were assessing a complaint that Andrew allegedly shared confidential material with the convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein.

1:49Sean Coughlan:Now, to be clear, being arrested in and of itself is not an indication of guilt. And at the time of recording this on Thursday, no charges have been brought. For his part, Andrew has consistently denied any wrongdoing in relation to Epstein. Still, his arrest is the latest development in an unprecedented scandal that has sent shockwaves through the British royal family and intensified scrutiny on how his brother, King Charles, will deal with the fallout. From the BBC, I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. And today on The Global Story, why was Andrew arrested and what does this mean for the survival of the monarchy?

2:35Sean, it's nice to meet you and have you on the show. Can I have you introduce yourself to listeners? Yeah, I'm Sean Coughlin and I'm the BBC's Royal Correspondent. Well, why don't we dive right into this latest news? Sean, can you put into scale how big of a deal this news of Andrew is? How does it compare to other royal stories, royal scandals that you've covered? well i think it is pretty seismic and probably one of the biggest news stories to hit the royal family for many many many decades really i mean it's a story which has been in the making for for decades the links between andrew mountbatten windsor and jeffrey epstein go back for more than 25 years but like a slow burning novel that suddenly reached this massive crescendo he was arrested and he was arrested at the king's own property and he was taken into custody and i think if someone had said to you a year ago that the then duke of york would no longer be duke of york it no longer be prince andrew and they'd be sitting in a police station somewhere having to explain himself to investigating officers he wouldn't have believed it so i think it is rather remarkable.

3:47And since the Epstein files were released, he has declined to respond to requests for a comment from the BBC and I think other news organisations too. We have sought his comments, but so far he hasn't replied. But in the past, he has always strongly denied any wrongdoing from his associations with Jeffrey Epstein. But even to have got to this point to see him being arrested is quite remarkable. We are talking to you at around 12.20 p.m. Eastern time here in Washington, D.C. That makes it 5.20 p.m., 5.20 in the early evening there in London on Thursday. And as you say, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor was arrested.

4:33Can you walk us through what happened in the moments of leading up to the arrest? And I'm also curious for you, you've covered the royal family where were you when this all transpired when you first heard about it were you shocked certainly surprised because not least because i was on a day off and about to go to the dentist which is dreary reality uh and obviously that had to be postponed so i went from one kind of pain to another sort of drama and um i suppose to talk it through you have to go back to i think most recently to the publication of the epstein files and it's like a great big kind of like an oil spill of bad news that just washed around the globe.

5:15And it really has called for this network of very privileged people to become accountable. And even though Andrew has always denied any wrongdoing, it has certainly raised very many questions about his conduct. In particular, in the last couple of weeks, as well as the claims about sexual misbehaviour and questions about his involvement in Epstein's alleged trafficking, I think what came through were more technical questions about Andrew's behaviour when he was a trade envoy, representing Britain overseas, trying to drum up trade, trying to encourage investment in UK businesses, which he did between 2001 and 2011.

5:54He lost that job in 2011 because of his links to Jeffrey Epstein. You know, that's a long time ago, 15 years ago. And a lot of years have passed without anything much happening. There's been a sort of process by which Andrew has had his public status chipped away. But in a way, it's been a very slow train, you know, moving on this whole issue. Can you clarify what specifically Andrew was arrested for? He's been arrested on suspicion of misconduct in public office. And the particular concern is the allegation that he shared documents, official UK government documents given to him while he was a trade envoy.

6:33This should have been kept confidential. and he is alleged to have shared those with amongst others Jeffrey Epstein and also separately another document from the Treasury he's alleged to have shared with a business contact so it's a sort of technical question about his use of documents and he might have a very good explanation for what happened and he might say that the contents of these documents wasn't confidential and the nature of them wasn't such that he shouldn't share them and he might have a good reason for wanting to share them. But that's going to be the issue. All sorts of claims exist around Andrew and his associations with Epstein.

7:09But so far, the arrest is focusing on that particular area. I want to understand how we got here. And we previously did an episode on our show on Andrew when he was stripped of his royal titles. That was back in October of last year, before the release of all these Epstein files. Can you tell us what in the Epstein files appears to have prompted a police investigation. There are emails which emerged from the Epstein files in which he appears to have been sent documents by his own officials relating to these trips. And he then, minutes later, forwards them to Epstein. We only know the emails we've seen.

7:51There might be intervening emails, there might be emails that might have come after that might have explained them. In terms of the trade documents about his trips when he was a trade envoy, we know only headings of them really that he'd been to a number of uh southeast asian countries and at the end of these trade visits there were reports the civil servants report back explain what happened who they might have seen and details of what's happened there was another another document about afghanistan which we did see and that had that provided more detail britain at the time this was 2010 was militarily and politically very committed to the rebuilding of afghanistan Andrew himself had been there in December 2010 and he had a briefing document from government officials UK government officials about investment opportunities it talked about uranium it talked about gold it talked about other areas of potential high value minerals which might be exploited there he is alleged to have shared that document with Epstein and there are some Well, two issues here.

8:54There's a question of the principal sharing such documents and also separately their content, whether or not this information could have been got from other places, which it probably could. The principal of someone who was the UK's trade envoy sharing this information with someone else who might have other interests of his own. I see. Both those things, I think it's going to be difficult. Again, I think we really have to put the context around it. We only know the little bits we've seen so far in these emails. and it's like a fragmentary story you know it's a bit like if in lots of things you see a few parts of a picture the temptation for all of us is to try and build a full picture but we don't know what the police will be doing now and also in conjunction with government departments we're trying to get the full picture and deciding once that's also been established is this sufficient to to mount a prosecution so we're still a long way off from that we're not at even at the stage of a prosecution.

9:48So far, he's not been charged. He's only been arrested. There's no suggestion of actual wrongdoing yet until he's been charged. And even then, he's got to be prosecuted and will defend himself after that. So we shouldn't sort of jump too far ahead. But the issue is a rather technical one. And there might be other things around that time which we don't know about, which the police might be looking at. But that seems to be the focus of their thoughts. Sean, you mentioned earlier that in the history of covering the Royals and your experience as a reporter covering the royal family, that what happened on Thursday, the arrest of Andrew, you would say is a seismic moment.

10:23And so I want to ask, how is the royal family responding? What have you heard from his brother, the king in particular? Well, the statement from the king itself was quite a spectacular moment too. Some breaking news. In the last few minutes, we've had a statement from the king. I'm going to read it to you in full. And this is the statement from the King. I have learned with the deepest concern the news about Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor and suspicion of misconduct in public office. What now follows is the full, fair and proper process. By which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner and by the appropriate authorities.

10:59In this, the King says, as I've said before, they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation. Let me state clearly, the law must take its course. The law must take its course. As this process continues, it would not be right for me to comment further on this matter. Meanwhile, my family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all. My family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all, Charles R.

11:30he was having to publicly distance himself from his own brother and say that he would allow the law to take its course in a sense that they were saying whatever happens to Andrew happens to him and we're not going to stand in the way drawing a line between the work of the monarchy the work of the king the rest of the royal family and Andrew Andrew is out there now on his own at the mercy of the police and their notebooks and their questions. They've taken away his titles, they've taken away his home in Royal Lodge, and now they've given the green light to this pursuit of Andrew by the police, really.

12:09But before the king has said he wouldn't stand in the way of any police investigation, and here they are. Is that an unusual kind of statement, to see from the monarchy? I think it is absolutely extraordinary, really. Who ever expected him to be there writing about his brother in that way? That would have been something that would be unheard of, really. And I think he's having to publicly accept that the police have come onto his property, arrested his brother, and now let the law follow its due course. You might also say it's a recognition of the law being a respecter of right rather than of rank and that in fact the law isn't going to be circumvented because of someone's royal status.

12:52It's saying that he's going to be facing the same justice as anyone else would, which I suppose you have to say that the king has sort of pushed that line. There's no more protection for Andrew. No one's hiding him. No one's hiding anything. and they're pushing him forward saying, let the law carry on. And it must be a very difficult personal thing to do as well, apart from in terms of a public figure having to do that to someone so close to him as a brother. It's quite a striking statement, I think. I do want to reiterate for listeners, and I want to make it clear here, that the arrest of Andrew is not connected with allegations around sex crimes.

13:31However, I do understand that there has been some momentum in the UK around other aspects of Andrew's friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. And there have been interventions by prime ministers past and present. And Sean, can you talk me through any of what they have said? And is that building any sort of public pressure? Well, Gordon Brown, former prime minister, has been very explicit in wanting the police to be much more proactive in finding out what happened in terms of Andrew's relationship with Epstein and also any involvement he had in the trafficking of women and girls. Gordon Brown has been very strong on that.

14:08Prince Andrew, or ex-Prince Andrew, and anybody who knows anything about this has got to give the information to the authorities that will allow us to see what we can do to root out what is the most egregious abuse of power. So Keir Starmer has very much spoken about the importance of anyone who has information, sharing it with the authorities. Before we knew about the arrest, in the days and weeks before, Keir Starmer had on a number of occasions been pressed on his own thoughts about what Andrew should do. Hillary Clinton has told the BBC this week that everybody should testify to US Congress if asked.

14:45I will ask you straight, should Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor testify? Yes, anybody who has any information should testify. So whether it's Andrew or anybody else, anybody who's got relevant information should come forward to whatever the relevant body is. So he's spoken about that in fairly broad terms rather than specific terms, unlike Gordon Brown, who has been much firmer and to the point about what he thinks has been the lack of curiosity about Epstein, particularly amongst the police. one of the interesting things about the epstein files is they show how hard the u.s department of justice tried to get andrew to testify about five or six years ago they pursued him quite energetically and they went to the uk government trying to to get him to uh speak but he hasn't so far whether that will change now i don't know i mean i suppose the people that andrew is now more focused on speaking to is the police i mean you mentioned also about the the various allegations about crimes around sex.

15:50We wouldn't want to preempt them, but among those have been allegations of another woman being brought to Britain from America for the purposes of a sexual encounter with Andrew. But we don't know what's happened with that. We don't know if that's actually going to be pursued beyond being a claim that's been reported in the press. And as we know, there are a huge number of questions and people who have raised concerns concerns and representatives of various survivors who have called for greater clarity about what happened. But it's step by step at the moment. I think we just have to kind of wait and see what happens and not prejudge those things.

16:29Sean Coughlan:Here in the United States, people like the president and the vice president, they have secret service. They follow them around as a sort of bodyguards of a sort. And I understand that the royal family have something similar known as close protection officers. And there have been questions over whether those officers could corroborate Andrew's version of events when it comes to his relationship with Epstein. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because there was news on Wednesday that British police are now carrying out, quote, initial inquiries into allegations relating to close protection officers who were assigned to Andrew.

17:09Sean Coughlan:Can you explain what that means? So the context of that is when Andrew would have traveled to meet Jeffrey Epstein, he would have brought with him protection officers, policemen funded from Britain, people that travel with him, his bodyguards. And we know for a fact that from the Epstein files, when Andrew went to meet Epstein in New York, they had to find accommodation for two protection officers. And there's a whole exchange in the emails about where they'd sleep and where they'd stay and they agreed to stay in his house and so we know that they were there the question is what did they see did they know what was going on and i think more to the point how much information did they pass back to their superiors did by extension the the policing system the wider security network around the royals know what was going on with andrew and Epstein.

18:04And if they did, where is that information? I mean, it's questions like where were the police protection officers when Virginia Jufres was said to have met Andrew in London in 2001? Were they outside the door waiting? Did they go inside? What did they know about it? Could they confirm that that meeting took place? There must be logbooks and records. There must be people who spoke about it. And I think that's the sort of thing that people are still wondering about, that why that's never been confirmed when presumably that information must be available somewhere. Maybe Andrew denies ever having met her, is that right?

18:41He denied any memory of having met her and kept it quite vague. But there are questions about where, you know, the police, where were they? What did they see? And what records they kept. In this particular case, there have been suggestions that protection officers who went with Andrew to his island on the Caribbean had been there but then chose not to see anything. It's not been proven, and the Metropolitan Police have said that there was so far no evidence of wrongdoing and they've agreed to look at it. It hasn't reached the stage of any sort of formal investigation. It's just they've taken this inquiry and they'll see where it goes.

19:20But the bigger picture is there have been questions before about if Andrew was accompanied by, not just by the police, but by officials, by civil servants, by people from government when he was a trade envoy, various people who traveled with him. What did they see? Were they there? Were they around when he was meeting people? That sort of question is, I think, going to keep coming back.

19:41Sean Coughlan:You know, from this side of the Atlantic, it is a real curiosity to see how this Epstein files fallout is playing out there in the UK. Here we've seen American lawmakers, in fact, point this out. You had someone like Congressman Ro Khanna, a Democrat from California, who said bluntly that the British have taken this scandal more seriously than we have. Also, Republican Congressman Thomas Massey of Kentucky, he posted on social media after Andrew's arrest that, quote, now we need justice in the United States. And I mention these two congressmen in particular because they spearheaded the push to release the Epstein files here.

20:17Sean Coughlan:You know, the difference feels interesting to observe. I think partly. I think, I don't know, maybe be interested to hear what you say about the U.S. experience but i think there's a public mood here as well which has found it very annoying and upsetting to think that this network of very influential powerful privileged mostly men not all but mostly men could have been able to do whatever they wanted exploit people exploit young women make money for themselves lots of jokes going on lots of banter lots of carrying on without any apparent accountability for years and years. And these emails are like a transcript of privilege without any accountability.

21:05And I think it really annoys people. And I think that part of the... I mean, the police are acting in the way they have to behave in their own processes. But also, I think it's a very strong sense in the public mood that people feel that something has to be done. You look at the sort of ultra-rich in these emails, behaving awfully without any consequences, and then they all disappear back into their private jets and leave everyone else to clean up the mess. For most people struggling along, who aren't very earning very much money, who haven't had great times economically the last few years, it really upsets people.

21:43So I think these Epstein files have been a trigger for a sort of revulsion at that. In a way, the police inquiry is now part of that process. It's reflecting the public mood of wanting something to happen.

22:23And you can now watch the global story on the iHeart app. Catch every brand new episode every weekday.

22:31Sean Coughlan:Just tap into iHeart to start watching. And we hope you enjoy the show.

22:40Do you get the sense that the public wants to see a greater degree of accountability from the royal family as a whole? I mean, look, we're eternally fascinated here in the United States by the royal family. And I don't understand fully how, if at all, Andrew's arrest, which again is not itself an indication of guilt and he has denied wrongdoing. Nonetheless, is there still a sense that the monarch, the monarch's reputation, may take a hit from all of this? I think that there still will be a kind of separation in people's minds between Andrew and the rest of the royal family. I think people will make that distinction.

23:21Can you explain that to me a bit? Well, I think people will think that they get on with their jobs. He hasn't been a working royal for many years. He's been under his own cloud. He's been slightly separated from the fold. You know, they've circled the wagons and he's certainly on the outside of the wagons. But having said that, I do think this is really difficult for them because people will be saying, well, what do the palace know? You know, he's been under your roofs for many, many years when these things were happening. Did no one ask any questions when he made his sort of claims, which now seem unlikely?

23:53and his Newsnight interview and people are now pulling that apart. Did anyone at the time within the palace say, you know, that what you're saying isn't true? Was he ever challenged on his behaviour? So I think there is a sort of a low rumble of questioning. I think the Buckingham Palace has been quite clever in getting ahead of this by proactively... So you think their crisis comms have been affected? Well, I think by stripping him of all those things, that his titles, his home last year, kind of preempted some of this because it would be much worse if he was being taken away and arrested. If then you try to stop him being a prince or a jeep, it looks like you're kind of chasing the story.

24:31They're ahead of the curve. They got rid of that. He lost everything. It was very much what they would call a maximalist approach. They took off everything that he had. So you don't see it necessarily affecting the popularity or the reputation of the king or Prince William? I think less so William, but I think inevitably it must affect the reputation of the king to some extent because it is lapping around his door. You know, I think there is a public respect for the king. He's been coping with cancer. He's been getting on with his job despite that. He's not a young man. You know, he's 77. He's still working.

25:05Many of us would have been retired at that age. So there is respect for him. And broadly, the polls show his popularity. But I think this is difficult. And I think what is difficult about it, the royals don't like to be seen to be out of touch. And I think now they will hope that they put out the statement, he's been arrested, they'll want the story to move on a little bit. But he's got a long, long way to go before this story moves on. You know, really is going to have to grind through the gears for a lot longer. And that will be difficult for the royals, without doubt. I think what's hard is when they go out on a visit somewhere, talking about all sorts of nice things.