Arteta's CRAZY Methods BACKFIRE! Arsenal's BIGGEST Problem & Arteta's CRAZY Methods BACKFIRE! Arsenal's BIGGEST Problem & Our Football Regrets!

0:00Welcome to the good, the bad and the football. Joining us on the show today, wow, very exciting. Over a 32-year career, a thousand games, over a thousand games managed and a manager of nine Premier League football clubs. Sam Allardyce. What are you saying to you, Paddy? Big Sam. Cheers, Sam. I couldn't believe there were nine. Nine, right. Oh, top of the league, are they? Yeah. Don't say it Don't say I'm going to test them Because I were thinking about this And honestly I think I got four I've been Bolton Newcastle West Ham Sunderland And then I'm thinking Blackburn Yeah Blackburn Yeah West Brom Yep Crystal Palace Yeah Everton Everton Sunderland Yeah That's it isn't it West Ham West Ham West Ham I've got the full list here Let's go down them here West Brom Leeds, West Brom.

0:59Leeds, West Brom. What was Leeds? Leeds was only three months. Leeds was four games. Four games, was it? With Carl? With Carl, yeah. I took you in, yeah. How was that? Well, you know Carl, don't you? I had him at Blackburn. Did you get word in? Well, you know, I had to stop him trying to be manager. I don't surprise me. Am I doing a session here, Carl? Or not? Can I join him? Can I join in? When you go to... Carl! I'm here. You know, when Leeds got in touch with you, did they say, Luke, you've got four games? Or did they sort of entice you in a little bit and go, Luke, if it goes well, we'll keep you on?

1:39Angus Kinnear, I went with West Ham. Angus was the chief CEO at Leeds at the time. And I rang him and said, look, give me the 12 or 14 games left. I'm ringing in here now saying just give me a chance I think I can save you looking at the team you've got like you mean and they got rid of the American coach yeah

2:10anyway that's my bad memory because of my age these days anyway unfortunately they went for Garcia I think it was Spanish coach and I was in Alex's office after the game. It's the first time I've ever said this, by the way. I haven't even said this on my own podcast. I was at the same time of the game and I looked at my phone and it's Angus. He went, when you come? I went, you ain't got four games to go. He said, I know, he said, we're desperate. He said, we've just got rid of him. He said, I've just recommended you. I said, yeah, you should have done that before. I said, yeah, I'll come. It's Leeds, innit?

2:51Yeah. So we had the four games. Thoroughly enjoyed it, apart from obviously not being able to be a bit more effective than we were. We were effective performance-wise, but not results-wise, like you mean. When you go in and it's four games, do you get a sense of the players that everyone's buying into it? Or do you ever feel like, I can see some of them are looking elsewhere now, there's only four games? No, not really. I thought the response was okay. But I mean, like, look, listen, I'm totally unique in too. So my first day was like, where did you have your teeth done? I mean, was it Turkey or what?

3:33You're asking Paddy there at all. I'll be asking for my money back where he's going. I've got to say that because I've just had mine done, but I haven't had them done in Turkey. Oh, well, look, I thought it was something different. It looks well. Even I've had my own done. But all I'm doing is breaking the ice, like because they're wondering who's this like another one fourth one is it fourth this year and uh and like you said before took kyle robinson in like i mean so and and uh robbie keen oh so we are robbie's done great yeah brilliant you know i mean he's great and uh and i think that kyle's all great as well by what we by just by what we what we do we just say look it's got to be you know lift it lifting it not the depressing side of it or try and organise a team I mean that's something to what Deserby said after the series game did you see his comments about saying he needs to be more of a brother or a father to him yeah of course you do do you think

4:32Paddy McGuinness:that happens when they're in such a bad place that your arm around them needs to be loved because I'm saying that about obviously before Michael went to United it was a bit like that wasn't it it didn't look like they loved the players don't care who you are you might just to love you and put your arm in and tell you the best things in sliced bread. Yeah, they do. In this day, even more so this day. Yeah, so temperamental compared to what they used to be like. I mean, can't handle a bollocking. No. You know, you just put some right on the back foot like you mean. But I think that it's being a man manager, you know, I've talked about this for a lot of time, like I mean, that utilising your skills as a man manager is one of the most important things when you're in that position.

5:16Too many people go on about coaching. It's all about coaching. It's a bollocks, really, isn't it? No, yeah. A little bit overcoached. Overcoached. Taking decisions away from players, coaches, by not allowing to express themselves on the field. Now, there's organisation in your team. Coaching, for me, is organising your team to go against the opposition for that particular game at the Premier League level. When you say about coaching as opposed to man management, just looking at Arsenal at the weekend, and obviously we're going to get into this now because very exciting for the neutral. And weirdly, I see a lot of stuff online.

5:59I feel as though a lot of people are willing Arsenal to lose it. I really feel a negativity towards Arsenal. I mean, it's a weird one. People do that naturally. They do that. They're always at the top. They get that. I think people want it to go to the wire now. A bit entertaining. Man United were for there that long that it was the same with Man United and the same with Liverpool before that, wasn't it? But I've never felt that with City, though.

6:22Paddy McGuinness:Weirdly. It was a neutral. I kind of felt like... Oh, yeah. Do you reckon? I think when you've won it a couple of times, people get fed up with you. They get fed up with you winning it. Well, just with regards to the coaching versus the man management, when you look at that game, Arsenal lost 2-1 against Bournemouth and people were saying Arteta's been too rigid with them, he's not letting them express themselves. Do you see that as a manager when you're watching them, how he's set up and how they played the game? I see it. I see the discipline in his team and the discipline about how he wants to play and how he wants to do it.

6:58I think there's always been the downfall that they haven't quite got as many top skilful players that Manchester City have to break down a defensive 10 or 11. Yeah. And I think we saw that, I saw that for the first time in Man City in the last few games. Prior to that, I hadn't seen him being able to break down a defensive 10. Yeah. You know what I mean? But certainly against Chelsea particularly and then against Arsenal in the cup final. I saw Man City come alive with that ultimate ability to break down the defensive unit that they faced with nine times out of ten in the league. You know what I mean?

7:47You just feel like City have got more creative players. Creative players. Players that can go win a game. When you look at the difference with the first half to the second half at Chelsea, again, you're going, bloody hell, they come out and just absolutely blitzed them, didn't they, in second half? Yeah, they were going in, I think they mentioned it yesterday, and the Paps probably had a right word with them yesterday because before the game, it was like, you know you're trying to win a game not coaching that's my mind he's just going in and he'll have blown his top like I mean because he's a bit old school whatever you say about him he'll go give him what for saying what you think you're playing at yeah you know what I mean you could see the reaction I mean people talk about reaction he is he's an old an old time we monitor we monitor players like everybody said you'd you do too much like but you take out of it what you can if I abolished a team the first thing I'd do would look at the stats and say what was the input to input to me bollocking the team mmm on the physical side tactically you talk about bollocking the team at the right time means you've got an increase in output in the second half it might die off late on because again tired but so So I'd look at the first two.

9:04What effect did we have from the first half to the second half? Well, the second half gave us a bit more energy, a bit more high-speed runs, a bit more sprint distancing, a bit more, which brings you back in the game. And then you've got your talented players to try and give you an opportunity to create a chance to score. So it has its place when, and you've got to decide when it's needed. Yeah. That's your job. That's man management. you decide when when you do and when you don't when you make a substitution when you do and when you don't now you have to be the bravest man in the whole of your team to make a substitution because it's your responsibility when do you make a substitution?

9:48well before the opposition are going to score if you see it coming not after they've scored yeah like most managers do most managers go they've scored you're going to see a substitution well that's a bit late isn't it? it's a bit late I think Pep's had to coach this team in the last six months more than he's had to coach for years and years. If you think about it, the teams he had, he could just sit back and watch. Now in his last six, 12 months.

10:13Paddy McGuinness:You can imagine what he's saying to his team now, can't you? You can imagine him saying, we're going to go on and win this league. He's the likes of Dock here and the likes of Cherk here. All of a sudden he's got players he's got to talk through games a little bit. He's not really done that for a while, has he? He could just sit back and enjoy it. but now as it proved yesterday he did something at half time that was different do you feel the momentum is with him I know obviously Sunday coming is the main one in it but I still I still think Arsenal win the league well they should do yeah I mean he threw it away last time didn't he and that's the worry about the Arsenal fans because he was what seven points clear last time in a similar situation and his team his team started losing and drawing games sometimes on winning positions and Man City took the...

11:03What is that though? Is that just a pure pressure thing? Players, players. You look at, listen, I watched, it's a different subject, but I watched Rory nearly bottle it yesterday. Yeah. Oh God, yeah. You know what I mean? It was only his short game in the end. His short game round the green, which everybody says if you play golf, it's all down to your short game whether you win or lose, like I mean, was it? driving for show putting for dough you know what I mean and at the end of the day when it comes to the crunch you know a little bit it's right a little bit of what Arsenal are doing they're not playing very well Rory didn't play very well yeah but got it done

11:42Paddy McGuinness:yeah will Arsenal get it done I'm not so sure if you look at Arsenal I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's only one that's won the Premier League in the whole squad yeah that's a big factor I think it's Jezus I think it's the only one that's won the crowd City and I think they've been there they've been in that situation until you've won it until you get over that hurdle it is a nightmare literally like that every time it comes to the end you just think I'm going to let him down again your mind starts running away with it and you can see that happening now with Arsenal especially with City chasing him with Pep in charge because the amount of times he's won the league I just think Arsenal have gone man I just think all the momentum is with City and Arsenal at some point you've got to beat your rivals to win a league I've not seen them do it they don't win big games I mean losing to Bournemouth at home you can't be going for a title you can't be going for a title and losing to Bournemouth at home you can't you can draw anyone can draw but to lose it's like you're not giving a chance I can't say anything other than a City winner on Sunday I just can't also you know we've talked about it on here about set pieces and they rely on them a lot Arsenal this season yeah I used to get slaughtered for that I was going to I was going to he's a genius I should have thought do you reckon teams now like Bournemouth when they went because you'd expect Arsenal win there wouldn't you but are they now kind of going we know what they're going to do all the time you know there's not that fleur and flamboyancy and someone doing something a little bit different on the pitch that's what I've said about Arsenal I'll see that they can't win big games against the big rivals and struggling against the likes of Bournemouth now when they're not scoring set pieces now when I look at our team when I look at City's team over the time there was match winners all over four, five possibly six you could bring two lads off the bench to win you a game I've never seen it in this Arsenal team I just don't think there's enough So Alex Fergie when he was you played with him when he was in winning positions he'd go to win more yeah whereas you know being a centre-assist half if I'm in a winning position I'm likely to go and put about five on yeah hmm you know but probably though there's a factor of that because my team probably wasn't good enough to go and do that and put the subs on but he was we would ever win in a game 1-0 and we didn't go for the throw he's got nuts

14:18what did he do know Arteta like with that with that team he's obviously had for a while now after losing against Bournemouth and then you see City beat Chelsea well what does he do with them now I think he's doing some strange things sadly not that I'm adverse to a strange thing because I'm the first to try it like I mean but he's making it public with the pens you know what's that the pens this time he's got AI up and see why the training he's got AI screen up on certain situations that are happening actually while they're training and he's let the press and the public see that now I don't I like the innovation but I don't like that publicly keep it to yourself you know what I mean because that can backfire on him because they can say you confuse the players with all that stuff what do you mean hold up a pen you mean a pen I thought you were talking about penalties no no a biro a biro a biro what were doing what a big it was a big doing what that's just a cheap one just trying to keep up between them or something so you're holding a pen and I'm holding a pen well I think they're like no like one finger or another one like that

15:41Paddy McGuinness:we're pushing it in between chuck a pen over here Jack give us a pen I've got to see this do you think if he doesn't win it he'll be gone no no no I don't think Arsenal will let him go. Do you think they will when it's on? I still think it's in their favour, yeah. I still think you'll see a very determined defensive set-up on the Man City game. Will they go for a draw? Will they go for a draw? Yeah. And Man City,

16:15not as good against the counter-attack as they used to be. they're more vulnerable now than they ever were, which could be, I might be wrong, but I think that's what you'll see. You'll see the counter-attacking Arsenal against the blocking best defence in the league. So City, in the cup final, it was different. Yeah, because it's a one-off game. Because it's a one-off and you both have to, this one is, he knows if I come off with a nil-nil or I end up being a one-nil, that's going to be it. but if it's a nil-nil, it's fine. You know what I mean? And I think that's what we'll see. We'll see a very tense, tense, nervous affair.

16:56There might be something that happens. You have an old sending off. Somebody got sending off or the referee makes a huge error, which they're always vulnerable too, aren't they, like, especially with that goddamn VAR and stuff like that. Do we know who the ref of that game is? Have they said it already? When do you find out? A couple of days before. I don't know. I don't know. Just before we move on, because I've got to see what this is, now the budgets on this podcast, they aren't the best, so we haven't got a pen, we've got a pencil. We've got a pencil. We've got a pencil. Show me what you're on about.

17:27Here we go. So that's it? Yeah. Something like that. And they had to walk with it, but they were doing the same with the ball, right? There's five of them in a little circle, like the ball's in the middle. And they had a pencil? No, fuck all of them with a pencil, no. It's like Sam says, I'm making that public. It's all right trying things, and I'm sure management will try things. He'll be trying anything now, won't he? He'll be trying anything

17:46Paddy McGuinness:to just get him back on side and get him going for the next game. I think City beat him. I think City beat him Sunday. The best thing to do is like Pep does. He was four days off. Yeah. Yeah. Just going, getting ready. But do you think that's confidence in the team and Arpheus might not have that? Well, he ain't got confidence in himself and his staff if he don't do that. Not that I should be criticising. Well, he used to give us a lot of few days off at Newcastle. You know, mind. I forgot he was in charge when you were there. My boss, yeah. Bloody hell, fire. We'll get on to that in a bit. Honestly, God.

18:20Does it surprise you the way he plays though, Sam? Because as a player, you think of the coaches work with Pep as well. You don't see that negative kind of way. Yeah, it's quite rigid. Randy was with him for the first three years. He said he's intensely, intense-wise, he's really intense coaching-wise, where he's coming up with all these ideas. Got Albert now, aren't he, Albert?

18:46Paddy McGuinness:what's his Alex Gabby Hines Gabby yeah I watched a Netflix thing about him as well when you watch it you think I can't work out if it's a genius or crazy well we're all going to be crazy to manage we're all going to be crazy we're all going to be stupid so we've all got a manager here who's done over a thousand games you two played I know you played as well Sam but a manager over a thousand games you two as players you're in a situation now at Arsenal how much amongst the players are you thinking do you know what this old in pencils ball forget what manager's saying we've got to get together and do it ourselves I think that's what they're lacking for me looking from an outsider looking in they're lacking real leadership in this point of the season I was very fortunate and scored to the same we played with the teams where we had experienced older players that had been there seen it and done it and when it was going a bit edgy you bring us all together and it wouldn't even need a manager we didn't change downstairs and we liked that each other and then we got a bit old and we took over that man of having a chat and leading the rooms so they're changing but I think they like that I can't I can't imagine who will be doing that in that change right you got rice you got if we were doing what they were doing now and so yeah yeah we'd be thinking the managers lost it yeah really is my reason why over coached hmm and coaches because don't forget we're all head coach now we're not managers yeah your titles you go for a job it's your head coach so you're losing responsibility in a lot of areas that that i don't particularly think you should but your head coach your reputation you try and build yourself on these young coaches and foreign coaches particularly coming in that everybody seems to love in the the media more than anybody else is building your reputation as this genius coach now what that's done is taken the player's responsibility away so the player now will say look at you now and he'll go well you tell me how to play and I'll try and play like that the players are totally different so they've had the actual responsibility taken away from them by the coach that's coaching them so they then come into a state where they're they're left with that i don't really want to make that decision because if if they do it might be a decision against the coach and the coach goes what you do that but i've not told you to do that and i think that's a real problem at the moment when you talk about lack of leadership because the players now are going right we get all this information now so we'll go and try and do what you're saying and then when it comes to us on the field going hey you right come here right or you stop him you know what I mean and I don't see a lot of that happening we've had conversations there about Maverick players haven't we and they seem to be going dwindling away that's why I like Cherokee yeah I've just got to mention when Sam's talking about players players now players almost need to know everything they've got to do at every minute on a football pitch which is wrong it takes that freedom away it's like reading a script isn't it yeah the difference from Arsenal and City now City have still got a couple of players who can do you know what I mean they can't be coached to what they do you look at Cherky yesterday he's a million miles away from a Pep Guardiola player I think he's got all the skills I'll get me wrong but Pep likes people who are in right positions he isn't he goes all over the place but he's got that freedom to play now he's let him do it a bit and all now hasn't he like you said which surprised him I've lost count over the years how many times I've played at United with the best manager, in my opinion, of all time.

22:40Paddy McGuinness:However, we didn't rely on him all the time. If something was going wrong on the pitch, example, these three against us where we played 4-4-2, you just pull the wingers in and work it out yourself a little bit and just have five minutes together or put it in behind for five minutes, whatever it might be. But they don't do that now. They'll just do it and do it and do it until the manager comes on the pitch and goes, right, someone go down and I'll change it. and that's the big problem with football now the big thing about our manager was all about riffs wasn't it he loved riffs look if he were playing and being safe in midfield he'd go nuts pass the ball forward win games if things were going wrong we'd sort it out between and then at half time the manager might change it again but on the pitch you've got to be them leaders and I don't see it in Arsenal I don't see Arsenal you can still win games and win leagues a different way as Arsenal are trying to don't get me wrong but just the team we've brought up and the manager the manager that started every season says go and score two goals in every game you'll win the league.

23:35Now straight away you're thinking fucking that's brilliant

23:38Paddy McGuinness:just got to score goals and we'll win the league There's different ways of doing it if Arsenal do it it feels like they're going to limp over the line but doing it a different way it doesn't matter how you do it You've got to give them credit for where they are, what they've done especially Arteta from what he took over five or six years ago he's done brilliant to get them where they are. I just still think there's a little bit against them because of I think they're up there because of failings of other clubs more than anything Don't forget he's still inexperienced Yes It's his first job Yeah His first job is Arsenal I mean what a big one responsibility that is You've seen so many And he's done great Sam to get them to where they are from where they were So many assistant managers that go and and get that job and fail miserably are you what I mean Can you go in as a where he's gone now with Arsenal and when we're all watching it and we're talking about it and we're going, clearly something's not working.

24:34Can you go in as a manager and go, or is it just down to you as a person where you go, do you know what, not that you've got it wrong, but you go, right, we're just going to do something a bit different on this next game, rather than the, I know we're talking about the pencil and the ball in the head and all that, carry on. I think you got to a point. Do you have to stick by your guns? I don't think you can change that much, can you? Well, I mean, there's not a lot. For me, there's never been a lot of emphasis on going through the same old, same old. I just say if you don't know it now you shouldn't be playing in the Premier League if you don't know how we need to play and what your strengths and weaknesses are as a team I don't know what I can do for you you know what I mean so I can challenge your players that way like by saying you know now that only happens not when you're at a new club like when I was at Newcastle trying to build that confidence it's when you the two clubs I've been at it's when you're like two, three years in like Bolton and West Ham because you go, you know, come on.

25:36What, you need to tell me to do this again? Do I have to do this again? Yeah. You should know what you're doing by now. You should know what you're doing by now. I mean, you've got your squad, you've got, you know, there's only a bit of time you spend with new players if you've signed them in January. The rest of the time you go, all right, let's go. You know the basis of this and then these are the danger points and these are the weaknesses. so off you go so when you've got that I always remember that because coaching was was all leagues for me it was a bottom league all the way to the top and the amount of time I spent there was far more in the end than the amount of time I spent here because it was one it happened at Bolton when I was doing and JJ and you turn around and says Gaffer do you still have to do this what do you say yeah right okay no problem yeah I'll leave it it's no problem for me that's the man management we should have to do this we know what you want you have to keep telling us in other words shut up so I just come in now and again it was easy then yeah

26:56Paddy McGuinness:is that when you get your trust in your players as well trust in your players get your best time in football but because of the rest of your time you're under that you're under that much pressure if you're trying to save a club and you know you know in the first you know how hard it's going to be in the first 10 minutes yeah I see a question because obviously I was at Newcastle with Sam as you know when you first walked into that club did you quite understand how messed up it was when you got there yeah it was disaster yeah and it's sad because in what way it was just so I was 12 when I went to Man United and I left on as 30 I had one manager and in six years at Newcastle or five and a half years with including interim managers I had 11 Jesus Christ and there's no way you can get any you just heard Sam who's managed a thousand games say about it's extra two or three years with West Ham and Bolton to trust your players and get to know the players know what the manager wants I was probably 31, 32 had won Premier Leagues and won other stuff so I was quite experienced Alan Shearer was but we had a lot of young players that needed to be told what to do and coach and until you get the trust of the manager with the players for maybe a year or two like Sam's saying but to change managers that often you're never going to get any success Why was that?

28:13Were they trying to buy instant success or were they not bothered about building? Basically

28:16Paddy McGuinness:so I signed for Subobby and that was a big reason why I signed he was there three weeks then Graham came in then Sam came in and in between that we had Nigel Worthington and Glenn Roder Glenn Roder Joe Kinnear Kevin Keegan Alan Shearer God that's it's bonkers anyway you go through at least Chris you weren't playing very well that's why

28:39Paddy McGuinness:Chris you Chris you to me there's no way you can do anything so I was just curious what Sam's throwing any wars into that building the biggest problem for me was a change of ownership yeah this was this was a real kick in the nuts for me like you know and this is because me and freddie had been getting on great for years yeah you know i mean because we met outside of football and in football organizing quite a lot i was pretty good friends with kenneth yeah his son more more than freddie like i mean born had come they come for bolton two years before that right before graham got the job and I was building Bolton to where it was and didn't particularly want to leave because of the team we had.

29:33And then it came around again after I left. People thought I'd left because I got Nuka's, I didn't have left because of what happened at Bolton, what they did. Was that not having the money available to kick off? Yeah, but they're not doing what they should have done. you know the board not doing what they should have done when they don't listen to you and you know and then you know you're going to fail then you can't I couldn't I couldn't stay

30:03Paddy McGuinness:yeah there's a ceiling there I'd imagine you get up to that ceiling and think I need to be back to get up to the next level I need to take me here now I got here and now we go there why though why did that not happen because they didn't want to go to Champions League was the answer yeah but why I can't because they said it cost too much I said what do you mean I'm paying for it myself anyway yeah because I've already created over budget by the fact that when you go to a football club and your manager right rather than head coach they give you your budget for the year the budget's sectioned off into areas of your responsibility you keep an eye on them budgets right and see and you're spending that as wisely as you possibly can the biggest one is your transfer budget so you get and they get to predict where you're going to finish and build a budget on that.

30:52So at that time, we were just going to finish 10th and our budget would be about this many million. Now, when I went in January, we were third. We'd already had five or six more appearances on TV, which was much more millions. We'd already had a run in the cup, which was much more millions. We're sitting in three. we're not even nobody's even thinking about relegation we're just thinking about Europe again third so you're third in January and you left for Newcastle no I resigned because I wanted these three players and we were already who were they son can you tell us who they were budget war no I can't not that particular they were all from abroad anyway they weren't from here anyway they were all from abroad now I ended up I ended up with the only player I got in January was little Davey Thompson so I'm on loan from Portsmouth who did a dodgy knee we're third in the league like I mean and I just couldn't take it anymore because much as I love the club and which is where was your

32:05Paddy McGuinness:message on the ball and some what was it fifth or six six on a full season yeah do you know when you talk about budgets and stuff but just massive thing budgets now do you know where about you were in the league budget wise where you should have been. We'd have been, with our budget at that time, we'd have been halfway. Halfway. Yeah. So you overachieved massively. So when you resigned at Bolton, you went into Newcastle. Did you have a plan with Freddie? Well, I resigned and then we did a deal with my agent to say we won't let it out. And I'll stay till the end of the season. But that got leaked out as well, so I left after we drew Chelsea away 2-2.

32:44But we still finished in Europe again. do you know as a football fan all football fans will find that mind blowing when a club goes we don't really want Europe it's too expensive how do you get your head round that as a football you can't get your head round it some lower league clubs like us do you know what I'm doing not when you started Premier League

33:08Paddy McGuinness:I remember Peter said that to me when I did that CEO role for a little bit so Peter Lim, multi-billionaire and he's saying everyone's gonna get really excited when you go up I said yeah I said said except me and I said we said to him we went to Singapore speech room and why he went because that hole gets bigger everyone's cheering let me get promotion again and that hole gets bigger again and gets bigger again so unless someone but is willing to lose that kind of money you're in this position where Sam is but you shouldn't go into it unless you want to lose because in the end of the day you make a lot of money if you get it right yeah So if we entered Europe, it would have been, I think at that stage, I'm not quite sure what the figures were, so I wouldn't like to guess, but there were so many more millions of pounds.