Scholes & Butt React To Man City's GUILTY Verdict

0:00Welcome to the good, the bad and the football sponsored by Midnight, the betting app that's built different, folks. We are getting straight into it today. You may or may not have seen the news about Manchester City and 115 charges, well, 114 charges now. And we're joined by ESPN's senior writer, Mark Ogden, to delve into the nitty gritty of everything what's going on. How are you, Mark? Hi, Paddy. Welcome to the pod, mate. What's going on, mate? Firstly, just as a fan of the game, of the 114 charges, which are the most serious?

0:41Mark Ogden:Well, the most serious are the ones that are inflated sponsorship revenue, which basically says they've earned more than they really have. So if you're saying your sponsorship of the stadium's worth£10 million and City may be claiming£40 million, well, that's the issue, that they're allegedly inflating their revenue. beyond what it really is. And that enables them to pay players' wages, pay managers' wages, sign players. So it gives them an unfair advantage, or it would give them an unfair advantage in the transfer market and just signing players, bringing money in. The allegation is that the money is actually coming from outside the club, i.e.

1:16Mark Ogden:the Abu Dhabi ownership, to inflate their earnings. Where they talk about all these, you know when they say about taking trophies off them and what would have happened this season, who went down, who stayed up, all these there's so many different connotations there's an argument as well as players you might have been on a bonus at a club if you'd have won the league or you might have been on summer and you've been denied that as well so where does it stop yeah my appeal's going in I'm suing them I missed out on a league bonus did you get rid of the glazes I have a quick good point I don't think any real proper Man United fan would say we want them trophies or Arsenal or other people and it might be who's second but there's got to be a massive big question mark about them keeping their titles because if you look at any other sport in the world ben johnson olympics lance armstrong in all of the cycling events he was in if you get found cheating whether it's cooking books drugs or whatever it is and going to the side of the law or bending the rules to help you get uh unfair advantage then there has to be an argument and a massive argument of saying they should be taken often now if people want to come on to the podcast or come on to wherever I'm slaggers off for saying that they shouldn't have an a grievance against those that's just the rules it's in black and white the rules in and you will people will try and manipulate the rules a little bit to get that little bit of a percentage of a margin basis on a performance on a pitch however you get caught you've got you've got to take your punishment and I think that's the big question now is well how long will that take what is it going to look like and how it will affect that club in the bigger picture because I personally don't want to see City going under I don't I'm a Manchester boy I'm a massive Man United fan but what they've done over the last few decade 10 years have been nothing short of amazing but this is a massive massive massive big X against their name now so how it's going to come about what's going to happen when you talk about all the permutations of other clubs it's just mind blowing I can't even get my head around it it affects so much stuff doesn't it I suppose it's where do you stop with it and look and before these charges came out I think even as United players, United fans I really admired what City were doing in a way because what they were doing on the football pitch was brilliant we know now that it was probably wrong and they were doing it not in their means but also the development of the club, you looked at the club and think that's a really well run club what they're doing, the stadium obviously the teams of producing but not just that developed east manchester really and that area because we we know that area don't we that that was that was nothing like it is now let's just say that now as far as getting medals and and taking trophies off there there's no really president been set for this has there can't do that it's it's like it's like what nicky said about the lance If you're not a strong taking the name off the history books, you can do that.

4:16If you've cheated, you've got to have serious punishment. No, but you can't give the trophy to another club, can you? No, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that. It should just be void. It's void. It should be void. I'm not saying that. It's a void season. I'm not saying I want a medal. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I get that. There'd still be something wrong about that. Actually, you enjoy... We enjoy playing against the best players. Now, look, they had the best players, but they had it for a reason that they shouldn't.

4:42Mark Ogden:Some people do want it though. I mean, Jürgen Klopp said, didn't he? Yes, they do, yeah. About he'd have a parade in Liverpool. If you think about it, he could have dominated football for five or six years. I mean, when you rewind, I mean, this is the way it's all started. 2019, 2018 is the period this covers. Yeah. So, you know, back in 2009, 10, 11, 12, United were the biggest club in the country, the best club in the country. So for City to get players ahead of United meant they had to offer something different. Of course, yeah. They went to United then for the platform of winning medals, right?

5:08City had to offer more money to make it appeal.

5:10Mark Ogden:So Carlos Tevez is the one that went first. He obviously was a great player for United. United couldn't compete with what he's been offered at City. I think two or three years later, Sir Alex tried to sign Sammy Nazri and he thought the deal was done. He actually thought that Nazri had promised him to go to United and then next thing he goes to City. Now at the time, City hadn't won anything. So why did Sammy Nazri go to Man City instead of Man United? He might have just wanted to go and play for the club. But you know how the game works. So over the years, the reason why City have been charged too many times because they've given themselves an unfair advantage to attract these players to build a team to build a team to the point where Pep comes in in 2016 and that's still part of the period where it's covered the much more attractive proposition now it doesn't cover 2018 to now and the reality is that what happened in those nine years 9 to 18 enabled City to get to a point where they could attract any player they wanted because they were offering trophies and money at the start it was just money but now it's everything the connotations as you say they're just they're endless well Mark me you were chatting before we started and what Paul said about what they've done in the area of Manchester.

6:15And I went down there years ago looking at and I couldn't believe and I thought that's fantastic to see but that's how ingrained into the city they are. So it's not even a case of it's not just about the football pitch. That's why I don't envy the Premier League or whoever's in charge this whole process of sorting it out. They've created a lot of jobs.

6:38Mark Ogden:A lot of people in East Manchester, whether it's cleaning staff or catering staff or anybody, they've given people a life. So we can simply look at the football and say what they've done, or Leicester have done, is changed the way the game has been played. But in Manchester, they've just rebuilt that part of the city. And you go through Manchester, there's skyscrapers everywhere, and there's flats and apartments. Abu Dhabi fund a lot of that. Is it Manchester Life or something? They've got a construction company which has helped rebuild Manchester. now we're going off topic here a little bit because it's not football it's politics but Andy Burnham was the mayor of Manchester where Manchester was helped rebuilt by Abu Dhabi's now the Prime Minister I have to stress by the way City right from day one have refuted all these allegations they deny them all and they say they've got irrefutable evidence so and they're maintaining that so it's up to them to prove it now with that though I know everyone's got to sit on the fence a little bit but if they have got that then why didn't you just comply and help the investigation say look there's our evidence it's all it's all squashed Well, this is the question.

7:37Mark Ogden:And also why was it held in private? Yeah. Now, if you're accused of something and you're innocent, you want your innocence to be proven in a public forum, I guess. So it's all there for everyone to see. But equally on the Premier League part, if they think they're guilty, they would want their guilt to be proven in an open forum. So it helps nobody really to do it in secret because the question is still being asked. The conspiracy theories are there. But for whatever reason, this process is being held behind closed doors. and it's, seriously, nobody involved with it wants to say anything because they're worried about the other side accusing that other side that you've kind of compromised this investigation, this hearing, because it's meant to be all top secret.

8:15So where do we go in terms of punishment, do you think, now? Because there's not really a precedent being set for this. You think like people have had... Everton. Well, Everton, yeah, they had a fine. It's obviously going to be bigger than that, but I'm trying to think of ones in the past where they think of Juventus. which wasn't the same, because that was something refereeing, wasn't it? Yeah. Rangers, you look at Rangers in Scotland, and I think that was liquidation, so I don't think there's ever anything, there's nothing to go. No, there isn't.

8:41Mark Ogden:I mean, it's massive, and it's industrial scale really, and it's prolonged, isn't it, nine years. I mean, Everton is worth mentioning, because they were fined 19.5 million pounds for, sorry, for going, sorry, they were fined and docked points, the eight points in salt for going 19.5 million pound over their, their kind of three-year spending thing, and that was tiny, really. and Burnley now suing Everton for£40 million because they say that they were relegated on the basis that had Everton not overspent then their squad wouldn't be still to stay in the prairie but with you saying that about Everton this is again just when I look at it I kind of feel as though the city owners are so you can't the word wealthy doesn't even do it justice and they've done so much in that city and I know you know Everton and I've got a new stadium and everything else and it's great but I kind of feel as though the tentacles are that far spread now like punishment wise you literally I don't think what should happen can you expel the owners?

9:43is it the owners that can be expel because you remember what's all this if it's improper tests if it all comes out and out the washing in a month three months three months however long it's going to take who ultimately is getting the finger pointed at them who's in charge of that is it the owners is it the CEO who is it because I'm pretty sure they'll all have had their hands in it a little bit because things don't get signed off without a CEO signing it off. CEO won't sign it off until the owners say, yes, it's okay. So I'm a bit confused about if it comes to it in black and white layman's terms, who's getting the finger pointed at them?

10:14Mark Ogden:Well, Scoles is right. If it comes to the city are found guilty and the appeal fails, then there's a fit and proper person's test or a director's test and there's a football regulator. So if the owners and the hierarchy of found guilty have overseen this, then it is, it's deception, it's fraud, it's whatever you want to call it, but it would disqualify them from being directors. So the people involved at the hierarchy, if they were found guilty, would have to go. And Abu Dhabi, you know, back in the day, Sheik Mansoor bought the club. I was told it was a private, personal equity play was the phrase I was told, but obviously it was there to promote Abu Dhabi because prior to the take of, Abu Dhabi wasn't really as prominent as it is today.

10:52Mark Ogden:Well, there's all the sports washing claims and everything else at the beginning. So, so really, could City go for sale now? I think until, well, I don't think right now, I think that the owners are going to fight it. I mean, once it's done. I think there'd be so much embarrassment, probably beyond embarrassment, shame on the Abu Dhabi part if they were found guilty of this at the end of the process that they would have to wash their hands of it because it would have brought so much kind of negativity onto Abu Dhabi. And also, again, had they overseen this, then they wouldn't be deemed as fit and proper owners.

11:22I don't think you can take away from the players and management because what they achieved and the team, look, again, as Man United people, you have to admire the way that them teams play football. And look, Coach Well played well. Could you not argue that Pep's legacy is tarnished? No, no, he's a genius. He's an absolute genius. No, I'm just saying the argument could be at the same. If Pep knew about all this, then maybe that is a different story. I'm pretty sure players won't have had a clue while this was going on either and you know to win a Premier League it's hard so they're still going into work every single day working the bollocks off so and if look I'm trying to think if I was a player there playing across that time I'll get you wouldn't have had any clue what's going on you wouldn't have I'd like to think

12:11Mark Ogden:I wouldn't have an absolute clue but this has been this has been going on there for quite a few years so if you're say the players are signed for City this summer Elliot Anderson and Enzo Fernandes if you're in that position and your agent's going into C City, would you not say, look, just make sure I've got a ghetto here if this happens, or would they not even care? No, I think you'd have to. Yeah. I think you'd have to. I think the manager would be the same. You'd have to say, look, if we get a fan guilt at these charges, you're going, I think Kelly Anderson's going to go and play in League Two next year.

12:39Mark Ogden:But if this is hanging over the club. Do you think that's an actual, what do you think the punishment would be? Well, I mean, the ultimate punishment. There's no way of actually. No, but the Premier League, the ultimate sanction, the Premier League could expel them. They could expel Man City from the Premier League. But by expeling them, you couldn't just drop them into the EFL because the EFLs had totally different competitions. So different rules, different management, different everything. So the only way that City right now, as we can see it, end up in the Championship is if they had docked so many points, it would be impossible for them to stay up.

13:08Mark Ogden:But that's as far as it could go. So that would take them into the EFL? Yeah. Unless the Premier League felt it was so intense and severe that they wanted... I mean, I think expulsion is so off the scale. But if that happened, let's address that. They might have to start at the very bottom of the pyramid, North West County, like Bury. Which is what happened to Bury. No, I don't see that happening in a million years, but that is the ultimate sanction. But then you might argue that, look at what happened to Everton, eight points for a fairly minor indiscretion, really. What punishment, if City have found guilty of these charges, would match the offence?

13:42Mark Ogden:One relegation probably wouldn't do it. So you talk about massive fines, massive points in Utscham, maybe the hierarchy is suspended or banned from football, but then they could potentially bounce back in a couple of years. But I don't know how you can kind of extend the penalty to year two, three, and four if they're not in the Premier League, because it's a different competition in the NFL. Look, I know since it all got leaked on Friday, there's still been nothing official from the Premier League, has it? You think they'll release something, at least try and give us a heads up of what the process could be?

14:13Mark Ogden:Well, if you saw over the weekend, Caldo and I'm a bar at the city chairman, put a statement out in which he said, there's still a long way to go in this process. He didn't, he didn't deny that they'd been found guilty. It didn't address the guilt stories. He just made it clear that there's a long way to go. And it was very kind of well written. There's the semantics in that with a, you know, it didn't legally, it was, it was very tight for a reason. So the premier league are so scared of upsetting city that I don't think they'll put something out because they may feel that if they did that, then they will be accused of affecting the outcome of the appeal as it goes on so but there is an argument that if you're if you're found guilty of a crime in court you're sentenced so if you found guilty of an armed robbery you get 20 years then you appeal it so what a city appealing do you not think they should know okay sorry to just say look we've been done let's just take it let's just take the punishment because he's I know that's an ideal world for the rest of us they've gone too far to do that now I think yeah I think that's what's going to kill him Paddy made a good point before that we could go another season there City might win the league again this season imagine and still nothing's happening Matt makes a really good point I think the bigger picture is it'll all it'll happen whatever happens will happen in the football it's a bit then it changes from a simple to a criminal case and then I mean then they are completely out of the realms of what they're in now.

15:42Mark Ogden:What they've been accused of by the Premier League is fraud, basically. Could other clubs come from who've been relegated in the past in those leagues, even though they're at the opposite ends of the table they could argue certain games. So I talk about criminal and fraud, people could go to jail for this, could they? Is that a bit extreme? No, it's not, because if it is fraud and if the Inland Revenue haven't got the taxes and the VAT that they're due, then, yeah, it could go a long way. So if you're an executive of a company that's signed off on false accounts. That's the big if. Could they be sued by the clubs who have gone down?

16:17Mark Ogden:Well, clubs who have gone down, I mean, I think it's harder to prove that Man City are the club. I mean, if you lost a couple of games to Man City. If you really looked into the maths of it all and really got a top line, you could argue. There's a case for it. Everyone's suing. They could have lost a game against City, say, and they said, well, we'd have won that. You said, well, big clubs who could have won the Premier League. There's a trickle down, right? So if you start at the top, so we already know that United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham have lodged the right to take action against City.

16:48Mark Ogden:And that over lost earnings, lost commercial rights, lost everything. So... Sorry, just stopping you there. Was it 2012 when Man United finished fifth and they were fourth, City were fourth and they didn't get the Champions League? 2016, I think, yeah. That's part of it. Can I ask you a question there? You talk about United City lodging. Wasn't the CEO of Man United, would he be involved in City during that time? Well, this is a big question because you talk about Omar Barada, who's the United CEO. He was the chief operating officer at City. He was at City during... In them years? Most of the years.

17:17Mark Ogden:I'm not sure if he was right from the day one, but it certainly was there in a large part of that. So that is a question that, you know, will be asked. And Omar Barada might come out and say I was not involved, but again, can of worms. Can of worms, yeah. But in terms of the legal action, you mentioned United and not qualifying for the Champions League that year. So that, in their eyes, that will have cost them 30, 40 million pounds, for instance. even little things like United's deal with Adidas at the time if they weren't in the Champions League it went down 25 % maybe it's 10 million quid match day revenue match day revenue so sponsors could sue them or hotel football we lost a few so right to the top you've got all these big clubs that will say I've heard 200 million pound per club being mentioned over the period of that time but then it goes right down to what you were saying before about your title bonus you know you might laugh about it but if it's a significant sum it would have been if you could yeah definitely then players might think well I want my slice to pie as well it's going to be like what's that new one on a diesel emission it'd be more the medal it'd be more the medal than the money yeah and I've got to say I've never seen him as happy he's had a right spring in his step this last couple of years I am not do you know something I feel sorry for Man City fans I genuinely do the fans are totally innocent in all this because they've been had some amazing times in the last god no matter how many years winning things you know the treble leagues, FA Cups the emotion that's involved in that and they'll never be able to take their memories away from them, they're never going to be able to take their dad going with their son to watch Aguero score that goal It'll be tainted so much in your mind though, it's got to be tainted It won't take any of the memories away but it will it has to affect them a bit we actually, if they get found guilty with this and we do get our medals taken off us we've not actually won the Premier League, we've not actually won the treble we've not won that FA Cup we're not one this and it is it's just mind-blowing to think that so can Skyner show the Aguero goal and claim that as the greatest moment at the Premier League or is it the worst moment at the Premier League because that was that's 2012 and this is 2009-2018 Aguero came to Man City because they were a club on the rise but again when you've got to Man City but for the fact that they were can I just say we really all all Man City a massive thanks because when this international break was announced three weeks I'm going what we're going to talk about I'm over it and I'm like oh we're back we're still involved in the Premier League yeah who's a guessing man then what is it what's the punishment I think it'll definitely be such a big points deduction they'd have to be relegated to be relegated yeah because if they if they have viewers letting City off then City fans called the Red Cartel United Liverpool Arsenal won't take that the owners won't take it Chelsea the same all the big clubs at the top end of the Premier League will not accept it if City are allowed to if they're found guilty to be let off so I think it would be massive points reduction huge fine Transfer ban Yeah there'd be a transfer ban which might explain why they spent so much this summer but then it's what happens then it's the it's the Leeds United effect what happened to Leeds when they went down in 20 How does all that work then because you think of a transfer ban then and you think of all these players having to go and play in a championship because they can't bring any players in When you talk about Leeds Will that be in their deals?

20:30Mark Ogden:It must be Well they've got a great academy city they have to start playing the kids because obviously a transfer ban wouldn't stop you letting players go because they'd have to let players go to bring the money in. And like you guys were saying, you wouldn't stay, well, you might do, would you stay at United if they were relegated? Yeah, of course. Yeah. You know how they talk about, how they talk about a fine not affecting them because they've got so much money. They've said it. Yeah, but could you, could they be issued with a fine that's so extreme that if you're another football club lower down the chain, it makes you think, well, we're not going to do that because we couldn't pay that.

21:12But then for all the other fans, you kind of feel as though that money, will that fine, let's just say 600 million quid, let's pull a figure out the other. Would that then help the Premier League? Would it, you know, because... Probably peanuts though, I know, isn't it? No, I know it's peanuts then, But what my point is, it is peanuts to them, but it's not peanuts to other clubs. I'm on about going forward in the future for if anyone's ever thinking of doing these things and going, Jesus, that's the kind of fines that are going on.

21:44Mark Ogden:I mean, Newcastle, for instance, when they were bought by the Saudi owners five years ago now, everyone thought they were going to do what City did. But because the rules are so tight now, they've not been able to do it. So I don't think that threat needs to be there. If the fine was made to City, it'd be really, really hard for them to pay it or get back because the owners couldn't do what they've been accused of in the last nine, ten years. It would have to be paid by money brought into the club and that is the whole issue of this. I never thought of it like that. For me, it's a bit... Why doesn't the Premier League put one of their...

22:13They can go and employ 20 top, top accountants and put one in each club that are working for Premier League. Oversight. Oversight. And being there 24-7 in the accounts department with them because if you imagine the lower down the scale and your bosses are saying you've got to sign this off, you've got to do that you've got to do oh you're not going to have a job here 70 % of people would be like

22:31Mark Ogden:if I don't do this I'm going to lose my job that's like being in administration every kind of penny is kind of watched and accounted for so I'd imagine that you know I'm just guessing here but if City were found guilty and they had to pay a fine they'd be putting some sort of financial special measures to make sure that they were so closely monitored that it couldn't happen again but if you look at the bigger picture of the obviously the fans we spoke about they're there like last 15 12 years whatever it is the little businesses that are built shops around there and bars around there it's a bigger ramification of it all and for putting an external staff member into each club it's just a no brainer for me when you talk about the money that's in football and you talk about what it costs to put an account into a club I know that wouldn't happen because rival clubs would think that the Premier League would have too much information on them and therefore that information could leak out and could be given to other clubs and if you're running a club you want your business to be private yeah I get that you don't want you know who's the person So the Premier League then who will ultimately make the decision?

23:29Mark Ogden:Well, Richard Masters is the CEO. I know he's going to have people around him. He represents the clubs. I'd imagine he'll have quite a few big owners in his ear saying you need to do this, you need to do that. But it does come down to him. The panel will have, they give the verdict and the Premier League have to decide what happens. I heard something earlier about the panel. You made a good point. Is the panel chosen by a Premier League or chosen by an external company? because if they're picking their own panel, and I'm trying to speak up with City a little bit here, if they're picking their own panel to judge and then they're going to give the sentence as well, that doesn't sit right, does it?

24:09It's a bit like Ipsos with a press in it. It's an independent panel,

24:12Mark Ogden:and we still don't know who the panel are, but at the outset, the Premier League and City had to agree on the making of the panel. Yeah. What do we actually think about all these rules? I think the rule is stupid. I think if you've got a business this is always going to keep the biggest clubs at the top of it we think years ago you think of Jack Walker or Blackburn that can't happen again can it and I was quite excited when I saw this Newcastle stuff happening I thought bang we've got to do something well the city have got a survival here we go there's going to be another one we went and bought a crane industry Chelsea did the same we went and bought a crane business in Manchester right all the four of us and we said we want to put X amount of money in each year and the first year it didn't do well and we said right we've got to double that and it did okay we're going to double it every year until we become the best crane business in Manchester.

24:55No one can stop us doing that. So why is football any different? It shouldn't be the case.

25:00Mark Ogden:That's the argument City fans have put forward and the owners are saying you're denying ambition as if you're putting a glass ceiling there, which Newcastle have found. They can't break through because there's so much kind of accumulated wealth and historic wealth at these clubs that it's impossible. Yeah, but you also, I know what you're saying, but you don't want the Premier League to end up like the Scottish League where it's like just two clubs dominating, it's boring, isn't it? it is a bit like that anyway now sometimes the two clubs might change a little bit there's always that top four can well that happens in Leicester Leicester broke that didn't they but other than that but it's fair Wrexham done that we did it Solford did it in the lower leagues we just put loads of money in Wrexham people will be saying well you lads did it we did do it but it was the law as we could the argument is the law as you can but I think the law is stupid I think when you go and buy a business if it's a football business or whatever business it might be if you want to get that to the level and you are Elon Musk who's got more money than anybody you should be out of it well the city argument is and certainly from the fans is that why should they be punished for building a club building a part of Manchester when on the other side of Manchester the United the Glazers have taken money out the club's a billion pound in debt how can a club with a billion pound of debt be allowed to sign players be allowed to you know play if they've got a massive debt it's just the football business world it's just chaos but football's madness it's ridiculous ridiculous ruling but it's the rules and that's the argument I've got with City fans who are a lot of my mates going well if you have been found guilty or you are going to get found guilty then you have to take the punishment because whether the rules are stupid or not that's the rules I think that's the big problem with it all Is football the only sport where that rule comes in you're not allowed to spend the money NFL is a salary cap NBA is it to be honest the American sports are so tightly run on salary caps that the American owners in the Premier League are so that's what they want they want salary caps they want no relegation I mean the NFL is like it's boring because there's no chance for clubs to grow but you know that's just listen the Premier League has its set of rules it's like joining a club if you join a club you have to adhere to the rules what's the salary cap on the NBA just were you saying that because when I hear about the figures those lads are on over there I mean the cap's like 200 million quid a year I'll take that cap there'll be a proportion of what they bring in simple as that I think that Scholes are saying that about the EFL we don't know if they have a salary cap I think they don't know but there's a percentage of earnings.

27:22You probably know one of that. He was the CEO, weren't you? There's no salary cap, is there? I think they threatened it or thought about it. A salary cap, what you've got to say in financial fair play, you've got to balance the books. But obviously you can pay whatever you want to, to Paul Scorsham and Place for a sofa. You can pay him£100 ,000 a week. However, it's got to balance it out. The whole club's got to balance itself out. Obviously, it's captured everyone's imaginations because it's so, you know, Mark, you know their game inside out I wish I did I've seen him play but when Scorsese says to you about like what's the punishment you can't even no one can figure it out what's it been now three and a half years yeah but that's to get to this point that's what I'm saying are we looking forward now to time can they sorry to interrupt this is part of the question can they still play this season and win the league of course they can yeah that's what I said absolutely my first because in

28:18Mark Ogden:because the innocents are proven guilty and there's an appeal they haven't so yeah i mean until this process ends well they are still if the process ends in four or five months will later the dutch is next season it won't end it i mean it won't end it for so basically the time scale is this started in 2019 it took i mean what we're on now what year is it i mean you lose track so 20 this started in 19 2019 that's when the investigation started it took a long time to The hearing started in September, 20, 24. It was a three month hearing, right? It's three. So December, 20, 24, the hearing stopped and now we're almost two years on, almost two years on, and we've got to this resolution whereby the panel think that city were guilty of 114 charges.

28:59Mark Ogden:So it's taken two years to get to this point. So you'd imagine if it's taken two years to consider 115 charges, it'll take two years to consider 114 charges. so in the meantime I think there'll be a siege mentality at City with the fans as well a bit like that Millwall no one likes us we don't care I think now if they want to win the league this season that'll be massive and because of all this I can see them doing it I can see the players going do you know what but if you're a player now if you're from this point on if you're a player that City won next summer a City could be a signed player there'd be no transfer ban if it's still going on but if you're a player thinking should i go there or should i wait and see yeah well you'd be waiting and saying and even if you sign this year while the child are the last three years you'd be thinking look they must have a clause in well what about pep as well leaving it when he did that's that's no way it's got no it's got a look i i thought he was going to be ready for a break and whether it was a charger or not yeah you're lucky so he did say if it's not true what the owners are telling me i will walk he said that a couple of years ago didn't he because what before I'm not saying that's what it was because it is true it's a bit of a I love all this it's a bit of a time well that's what he said in his own words two years ago if the if it's not true what the owners are telling me I won't be here but during Pep's time so obviously City won four in a row which had never been done before you guys did three in a row twice so that that was taken out of the history books they won the treble which took yours out of the history books and the 100 points no we did it first yeah exactly but all these great achievements that they during Pep's time they erased I mean so what happens to those it's like you mentioned Lance Armstrong there's six, seven tour de France's do those achievements get airbrushed out or do they stand because I remember during the 80s Liverpool won three in a row and then United did it it was like wow that doesn't really matter now because City had done four when you think of Lance Armstrong Ben Johnson we look back at Lance and we still think he was very good at his job don't we we still think he's brilliant although he has done what he shouldn't have done now I don't think I don't think a City player is going to lose and their legacy because they were brilliant players and a brilliant football team with brilliant football managers they have to lose some of those goals they don't if they are found fully guilty of all the charges in my own opinion they have to take the trophies off them now I'm not saying individually give me your trophy back knock on everyone's door give me your medal back they'll just go I don't know where they are in the Olympics if you're found to achieve you hand your medal back like the relay sprints if one sprints in a relay team gets a failed drugs test the medal goes back and you lose your medal and it's like but literally there's so many it's a can of worms in the history books I think it should be I think it should be cancelled out I do that's my own opinion well Augie's talking about us losing bonuses well do they have to give their bonuses back exactly no chance of that happening is there listen hearing you three talking about it it's amazing it's fascinating but let's see what the great and good think about this just while you're here this is what a little section called have I got views for you where our subscribers get in touch and a lot of them And when I'm looking through these, I'd say probably 90 % of these are, I'm a safe bet, Man United fans.

32:11Mark Ogden:Do you have many City fans watching this? Not anymore, we're not after today, we're not. Simon's saying, relegate them to the National League and start them on minus 200 points. You might as well just put them as I said before to the North West counties. You can't just drop, I mean, I'm sure the National League would take Man City, but you can't just, you can't drop them that far. Chris has said every point City gain during that period should be how many points they get deducted until they accumulate them all back. That's a lot. That's a lot. Neil, he's actually put at the beginning, I'm a United fan.

32:50Not yet. I'm a United fan. I need to put as a caveat, and I hate City, but I hope they prove their innocence. I think the league is better for having a strong City team and I'd miss having the proper competitive Manchester derbies we've had for the last 15 years. It's what football's all about. What do you think about that? Well, we all want that but it's got to be done legally. It's not competitive, is it? That's not United fans. That's not United. No, we've never been a United fan. Could they be found innocent? 114 in charge. Could they somehow get off with it?