Tim Sherwood's HONEST Thoughts on Zidane, Ending Man United's Dominance & Rejecting England Call-Up!

39:42It was a soccer aid, and it was the lad who does man versus food, Adam Richman, his American lad. Lovely lad. And he'd come over for this soccer aid, and he was in the rest of the world team, and Mourinho's the manager, who even in a game like that, desperately wants to win. And you could argue Adam Richman wasn't the best player. He could kick a ball. He wasn't brilliant, but he'd flown halfway around the world to be a part of this all week. He's a big Spurs fan as well, so he's like, he goes down Spurs, he does a bit of filming there. He's absolutely bullsy. Now we're delighted for him. And he put him on, because it's no extra time at soccer, it stops at 90.

40:26He put him on, I think, on the 82nd minute. HMRC is watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And took him off at 84. so he's given two minutes at the end of a game I think it went to penalties I'm not sure HMRC or something but but even then I remember going come on that's wrong fucking hell like you can you can leave him on for eight minutes it's not going to be that much of a disaster but it is I think in football it's like the ultimate insult really yeah I was managing one of them games the Gramefield games Loftus Road and I managed one of the teams and I was trying to share of minutes there was hundreds of players on both sides I was just trying to give everyone the game time and I remember bringing Mo Farah off and he wouldn't come no I'm not coming off I was like I was going I was not sure who I was bringing on whoever I was bringing on are you going no mate it was like the standoff like Chelsea in the cup final I mean I couldn't run on I wouldn't go and catch him would I he'd come off in the end and then he sat down but he had the right arm so he's giving me the I was trying to shake his hand when he was coming off anyway because I probably saw the reactions as a snobb you so he sat down Simba or Farah I don't know I give him the arm he's like fuck on but when I brought him off then a load of organisers and he's coming someone comes from the stands next to me and says Tim can you get Mo back on so I said yeah well I've got to give that one a chance.

42:07I said, whatever. I'm not sure he was managing the other team. Maybe it might have been Les or something like that. So I said, why don't we just put 12 players on both sides? No one cares. You know what I mean? It's to raise money for a great charity. It's the main priority. Anyway, I just put him back on. Just put him back on. Do you know what? Did his agent come down or something? No, it was just the organiser just asked if I had the amp and go back on. I've played with him all those times and he's such a lovely, lovely book but I've never seen that side to him funny enough. He's always stayed on.

42:41Nobody's took him off as well. Even when he's been subbed I've never got a sense when he's been subbed which happens. He played when I play. He's a nice lad. Yeah, he's awesome. I've never got a sense of him going oh, why am I on the bench? Why am I not playing? He must have just got the night or not long ago he's got an hangover. He's an arsehole fan. It's the ultimate insult, isn't it? I read this morning to him as well. Well, I don't know if I'm true who this is, that you're a Tottenham and an Arsenal fan. I can't be that. How old is that? You can't be that. He's got the double scarf going on.

43:11You can't be that. You weren't an Arsenal fan, was you? Well, I used to go to watch Arsenal. My dad's an Arsenal fan. He still goes. Really? Yeah, my dad goes, yeah. I try and get him a ticket. He's on the list to get tickets. He buys tickets to go, but if I manage to get him a ticket, he will go. I can get him a ticket for every game, but he will not sit with the away fans so sometimes I know someone on the away team and I'll say I'll get my ticket so he won't go in the away no no why just too lively I went to I've been with him quite a lot and we sit up there we're in a diamond club or wherever it is and when they start singing that North London Forever he sings it I'm going what the fuck are you doing I'm sitting next to him I'm fucking distancing himself North London Forever I'm going fucking hell I scored the winner against them in 99 right and it was it was probably the most memorable goal I've ever scored for Tottenham because it's a big derby it's a huge football match it was at Tottenham the noise was incredible I scored a free kick we won the game 2-1 when I went in the players lounge after we used to used to have players lounge now you don't I thought someone died in the family when I saw him what the fuck have you done he said that was good wasn't it I said well I enjoyed it he said well I'm glad you did I said I'm glad I'm glad I made you so miserable Is the hatred that bad?

44:37Was you at Tottenham and Soul one then? Yeah What was that like? That was interesting How many years ago was that now? 2030? Early 2000s was that? 20 years ago? Yeah Four stone ago The reason I'm saying that is because we're going to get into it now but 20 odd year ago and it's still a contentious one oh it's contentious yeah well Sol started doing more and more adverts he's making fun of them but he was a great lad come through the academy system which hurts you know Paul's obviously good example of that and he didn't think the club was moving in the right direction to what he wanted or the speed what he wanted it to and he was who was the manager then?

45:28George right okay He can understand why. I say it, you think you can understand why he went because he wanted to win. There's every chance he's going to win the league with Arsenal. Tottenham, well. But no one mentioned Arsenal. There was no mention of Arsenal. No one even dreamt that he would go to Arsenal. It was Barcelona. It was Bayern Munich. It was the Giants of... Because now everyone wants to come in the Premier League. But then they got an opportunity to go there. So everyone thought, well, it's probably... And the Tottenham fans would have said, fine. You've been a great servant to the club.

45:59just go there. But when it turns out that it's going to be Arsenal and he's going across the road and not only that, he's going across the road for nothing. Yeah, I was going to say that. And then he starts winning stuff. I would never begrudge anyone. Every man to himself and they've got to make decisions. He was not frightened of making big decisions. Yeah. He was, you know, you know Sol. Sol was very focused. Very focused. We've got England number 18 together with Sol, yeah. And he made the decision and if you ask him if he regrets it, we all know the answer. Yeah. He's quite a calm geyser as well, isn't he?

46:28Oh, it's a lovely So he's unflappable really without like that. I think that affected him though, didn't it? Some of the stick he got was wrong, wasn't it? Could he ever go back to Tottenham now to watch a game? Has he ever done that? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if he ever has. I mean, he's a local boy. He's from that area. Probably not. Probably not. He probably don't want to. Yeah, yeah. When you see the Tottenham fans now, like I said, 20 odd years later. Well, there's still a bit better about it. Yeah. Oh no, it's the one where we've seen recently we've done documentaries about it.

47:01You know, talking about someone asked me where was you the day when Sol you know, that was like as if like Jeff Kess would you play for Tottenham against Sol when Sol was playing for Arsenal then? Oh yeah. Yeah. What was that like? But don't forget that Sol had played in I think it was it might have been I was trying to think of the years you get mixed up with the years it's been so long ago but well the first game when he came back he came back on that first day I wasn't playing in that game but I was at the game and I can't tell you the atmosphere was something different you know it was a spiteful atmosphere and it was from the moment their coach pulled up so them coming out onto the pitch but let me tell you if there's anyone in the game who could deal with that situation it was going to be that man yeah and he did and he played well his mentality was brilliant didn't care nothing fazed didn't care that's what I mean when I've been with him a few times on various different things he's just quite settled level-headed you know what I mean he's not erratic or anything like that no he's more outspoken now than he ever was when he played he was very very quiet yeah quiet just concentrated very good professional trained hard well looked after himself you'd never worry about him you know at all being doing anything negative outside of the game he's just a true professional I think we should have a little bit of a deep dive on Tim we've not even touched a point he's like that's the only reason I've come up lads he's got the Bible in the pocket I'm like get on to that yeah so So we said at the beginning, me, I remember it distinctly, you lads winning the league.

48:58And how exciting that final game of the season. You must have had your ear on the radio. You were over playing Liverpool. And what's interesting is you were the captain of Blackburn at the time. It looked like it was written in the stars, Liverpool, this is the game, United slip up or whatever. you're going to win the league Kenny Daglish it was meant to be when you go behind obviously you don't know the other results what was the feeling like on the pitch did you think that was it we've blown it well when Jamie scores the free kick 100 % chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month each lasting 4 hours or more Botox on a botulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start it's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month It prevents on average 8 to 9 headache days a month versus 6 to 7 for placebo.

50:21Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. What? Oh, did you? How long were left of the game? It was such an empty feeling. I mean, it was just... I've met it, that, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know, there was no way back. We needed to win the game to make any difference. or match their result.

50:48But automatically you'd think, well, they're turning it around. They always did. And they come. We had a big lead in that season. I used to watch games, Coventry and things like that. You used to score late. Coley used to score all these goals and get them back in it. Coley takes a lot of stick for that last day. But without him, they ain't in it. They ain't in it right up to then. And Ludo McCloscoe makes so many saves. I think why it was so exciting, it was the first time they've had split screens on Skype. so you could watch both at the same time obviously we were we was in the thick of it but it was it was so nerve wracking I mean to go the journey with that football club and it's not a big city it's the only town who's ever won the Premier League so to finish fourth and then second and then be so close and to be the captain to be the one who could go up there first to lift that trophy having watched them do it and feel sick you know watching them do it for the last couple of years for that to be taken away from you I was just such an empty feeling and when they hit the net and Tim Flowers has absolutely no chance of saving it I'm just thinking we've blown it do you know this and then you look across and it's probably about a minute later and I saw Kenny's face brought you the biggest smile in the world isn't he Kenny and he's such a man who no one can ever pull the wall over his eyes so he would have made a hundred percent before he's jumping around smiling no one would have caught him out he would have made certain that he's got the correct information and thankfully it was the correct information so you're on the pitch Redknapp scored the free kick you've looked round at the lads around you obviously you're saying you just thought well that's it we've had it before you saw Kenny did you sort of did the crowd did you not feel it in the crowd you know the Blackburn fans where it's sort of like rippling through yeah oh you could hear it you could hear it there but you don't know whether it's fake news you hear that time and time again we're at Anfield by the way you know their humour little cheers what's happened we've got radios back in the day I kept going over to take a throw on during the game and they go Man United are winning are they no they're winding you up totally it must have been a strange game for us to go into from our point of view we thought Blackburn going to Liverpool Canada, Gleesman or Blackburn Liverpool aren't going I try it like it never really works like that does it no they try you try I remember 99 99 we played you when I was at Tottenham last game of the season we go 1-0 up I mean devastated the Tottenham fans were absolutely devastated because Arsenal could have yeah exactly that's when I fouled you wasn't it Tim yeah you remember that it does look like a foul doesn't it yeah but the season before we get robbed at Old Trafford.

53:43That was aggressive up, Tim. We get... We get... We get... We get... We get... Let it go. Let it go, Tim. No, we get wrong. What happened the year before? Durkin, I remember that, mate. I've got him still on my wall. Durkin. I didn't like him. There was a... Henning Berg by Crossfield Pass to Shearer. He gets above Roy and heads it down. Peter comes out and he sees me coming in, bottles it. Goes like that. I score 1-1. It would have been over. We would have got... I mean, this was that season. Sorry, that season. What did he give? give a foul on the push for did it from Shearer Shearer on Roy I didn't like him Durkin but that was that season that was when we played that would have been over that would have been done you know because you would have had too much yeah he got me a little bit Durkin I remember he was having a nightmare fucking I was on him all the time he just turned around and went you're playing well aren't you fuck you yeah they're good they used to talk to you didn't they they were good I was going to say back in the day obviously they weren't mic'd up or anything back then either who was your kind of I'm going to get back to that final game but just while it comes to my head who was your sort of favourite ref for that kind of where you could have a bit of a crack with them and they wouldn't take it too serious Jeff Winter and Graham Paul and all these Jeff Winter the one who was always tanned who was that there was a one ref he was always from Middlesbrough that's right yeah yeah that's right yeah I know the one I didn't like he sent me off I think a couple of times at least I think I got sent off four times one at Old Trafford that's not bad for you Tim no I'd have expected double figures one at Old Trafford right in the bottom corner I think we were we might have been one nil up at the time is that the elbow elbow Beckham still couldn't was that for Tottenham still couldn't move his looks still million dollars he didn't spoil it he didn't spoil it that was a long walk yeah Roy Hodgson was the manager and I think we got beat in the end I'm not sure what the score was at the time but I think we wasn't losing the game but we ended up losing it and obviously Roy come in and give me a piece of his mind.

55:42He could lose it, by the way. But David Ellery. Yeah. David Ellery. Like a school teacher, wasn't it? Yeah. School teacher. Harrow School. So I play golf with a guy and he said to me, oh, he's the usher at his wedding. Right. I said he knows you. The usher at my wedding knows you really well. He said he was the housemaster at my school. I said, who's that? He said, David Ellery. I said, oh, he's a... He goes, what? I said no mate he goes I'll tell him so I see him after the wedding I said did you he said I told him you called him I said what did he say he said no surprise what happened the year after you won the league then because I was talking before about Liverpool or whoever wins the league it's hard to go again the year after what happened to Blackburn the year after I think just we never made the signings we never had the quality of signings yeah and it just looked like it was tough it was tough for us and it was like you know did you leave that season no I'm not me no I stayed till 1999 yeah you were obviously in the Champions League that year as well weren't you yeah yeah Champions League we yeah we Moscow was that the batted Les Orbes yeah it was like a group of four wasn't it when it's a bit different now it was Champions wasn't it I mean it was what it said on the tin it was proper Champions League yeah Champions League so yeah who was in your group man

57:03someone in Russia Legia Warsaw Legia Warsaw Moscow one of them and there's a few of them Rosenberg possibly yes Rosenberg yeah so one of them I think you were playing when Bats and Graham saw the little fisticuffs it was what happened there I can't imagine Graham being like that it was about minus ten yeah yeah you know it was one of them where you know when you move around normally you warm up when you move around you get colder over there and mate we were chasing the ball we were absolutely nowhere near it nowhere near it was you playing on grass Astro I think it's Astro over there yeah because I remember when we played it felt like it I don't know Jesus didn't touch the ball much you know what I mean they popped it around us I mean it was just absolute first half there was a throw on both of them trying to get hold of the ball I think we'd already gone behind in the game so a little bit of frustration and it just blew up out of nothing and they just started throwing punches at each other and just getting in the middle of them I remember half time Ray Hartford bless him and he was gone in there taken over from Kenny Dalgleis big shoes to fill and he was saying what's all that about you know so we were in control of the game I was thinking what game was you watching fucking hell did it carry on in the dressing room no not at all I've got to see how to put my money on Batty David Batty was a great player I really like David Batty great player as well probably don't get the credit some of my first England games with him and he really helped me he was a good talker you never see anything of him now never has anybody ever heard from him no never we had a few every 10 years so it's been 30 years so every 10 20 30 we go meet up Blackburn but he's never there but I would love to see him what a great character he was he's never there never there yeah I used to because I I said to you I think a couple of pods back about I really liked him as a player and I just I just liked his character and it dawned on me Christ I've not a match at day as a pundit or nothing yeah I could see him now if anyone's got his number and they ring him up to say come I could see his answer now what the fuck would I want to go there for you know I'd better put the phone he was some player though wasn't he good player great player underestimated what he did I mean he win the ball back better than anyone and again good technique where does he live now where is he based he's definitely in Yorkshire he must be there when he first finished I think he went to Australia I think they emigrated he had twins he used to ride the motorbikes and stuff and then I think he'd come back within a year I think he was back and perhaps realised it weren't for him but it's hard to know because you can't, no one's in touch with him.

59:41How did you do in that Champions League then was a disaster? Yeah, terrible. Do you think that was the reason they got into that scrap? I know you were saying about the weather and what have you. Do you think that's the thing of after winning the league you felt more pressure? Possibly, possibly. Yeah, the onus was on us to do it again and like I say, was there enough? I think you need the influx of new players to freshen up the dressing room a little bit and we knew each other inside out. We had great camaraderie. I mean, on the back of talking about them having a punch-up, the year before and a couple of years before that, the team spirit, what we had, set us apart.

1:00:16We was so tight. Did you just go out a lot? Yeah. It was that time, wasn't it? Yeah, we would go out. Yeah, we would go out. We'd stay around. We'd train. And we'd stay around. When we had the new training round, we'd stay about. you know if we we used to change at the main ground the year we won the league we used to stay around there you know at the ground we wouldn't rush off there's no one in the car rushing off to go home you know we liked each other you know and it was the good thing about that it's some achievement isn't it really for a town like Blackburn massive massive achievement but we was honest with each other if you look through that squad there's I mean I was fortunate enough to wear the armband but he could have given it to five or six of us but we would give each other bad news you know and take it in the right spirit.

1:01:00Weren't afraid of that. Yeah. And I think that weren't just us. I think that was a generational thing, you know, of you stalk each other, but you don't take it away from the pitch. You know, you have to, you have to row and we're doing it for a reason because we want each other to be better. Yeah, talk about that. We saw, did I read that Van Dijk had like a players meeting, didn't he? Maybe last week. That happened quite a bit in our time, didn't it? I like that. When it wasn't going quite well. I like a player who's done that. When it wasn't going quite well, the caps would say, come on team me in yeah yours was trouble at the pub yeah yeah but that's that's how it was sometimes that's just the way it was that's where you started things out but Fergie would have like Kenny would have or George Graham or other managers that I've had they come in and address them at half time it's not going too well and they'll wait until you've finished having a fight with each other and then they'll say right sit down yeah right George is the best day because you knew he was in trouble with George because George blazer off taking his time and he undo his button and he start rolling up here we go and then he start and he just dig people out yeah yeah it's amazing how you do because when you first go in the dressing room everyone's a fucking I'm going to go with each other you're two and all down whatever and the manager's there watching for a bit and then you say just carry on lads carry on we'll be out in a minute when you're getting berated by your managers are you literally just looking at the bottom of your studs like thinking don't catch his eye see I was like that as a manager and I because what I've learnt from other managers especially George Graham especially Kenny Dalglish if you were doing that they'd go look at me really look at me I used to do that with the boys I'm talking to you look at me I'm not talking to you because I'm trying there's nothing worse is it someone's not looking at you yeah it's true I never thought that yeah yeah absolutely it's you just saying though then and I've never thought about it like that that squad you had at Blackburn, with those players, to be given the captain's armband.

1:03:03Do you never... I think when you're in the midst of something like that, no matter what career you're in, you kind of just get on with it. It's only afterwards you get a bit older and you look back at it. You must have felt immensely proud that of all those players, he's gone, Tim, you're my man. Yeah, I mean, the way it materialised as well, getting the armband was the pre-season of the first year in the Premier League. and a legend of a man was the captain of the club, getting him into the Premier League, Kevin Moran. Kevin Moran, yeah. Huge, huge legend of a great man. And he was part of the process.

1:03:41So when we went away to Ireland, Kenny rings me in the hotel room. He says, come to my room. So I thought, fucking hell, what have I done now? You know, like, because I was like. I'll especially think you're in trouble. He's there with him and he says, the old boy's getting a little bit older. It's time to hold a hand over the bat and we come to the conclusion that it should be you to lead the team out. I think he did it. People ask me, why you? And I think he did it for a reason because I was off the rails a little bit. I wasn't totally off the rails, but I think I needed to realise I was actually at Blackburn to play football.

1:04:21and it was a short career and more responsibility and I think the armband gave me that I was still the same player on the pitch but I think it gave me more responsibility off it to be the voice of the manager and the dressing room towards the manager and it's probably one of the best decisions Kenny's ever made You think about that you won the Premier League as Blackburn captain but you didn't actually play for England that year did you? No and I'll tell you why It's incredible isn't it? I'll tell you why one of the worst decisions I've ever made in my life after that season it was the Umbro tournament and it was in Leeds yeah I remember that yeah and it was Japan Brazil Sweden Darren Hanson I remember Darren Hanson scoring at Leeds it was a it was a round robin on the thing I was in the squad and I asked Ray Hartford who was very close with Terry Venables at the time I said Ray I'm fucked mate like I'm embarrassed even telling you this guys really I said physically it was alright mentally you're a little bit you know what it's like it's so long and we finally we finally got over the line and all that and I said can you pull me out out of the squad so he rings up Terry and he says Tim don't want it would that have been the first squad you'd have been in as well no no no you must have been other squad other than loads of squads it was like not gonna no I ain't gonna ain't going anymore you know it's one in the United States when you think you got Terry when Terry was I was in the island I was playing half and half with with Incy and the game got abandoned when the game got calmed off yeah was that with the crows so that doesn't count as a cap no but I didn't play I was coming on at all time they abandoned the game but then Terry obviously captain of the team that won the league I've got an opportunity there's probably three caps there for me straight away and I was I mean who the fuck did I think I was do you know what I mean but I was obviously I was tired but it was nothing it was not as if you're travelling around the world to go and pay you're going to Leeds and it's probably going to probably 10 days max for the three games and I pulled out and Terry never picked me again and if I was Terry I wouldn't fucking pick me again yeah you know what what was I thinking of it's hard when you're in that moment though because you are you're knackered aren't you from Premier League it takes a lot out of course it was and I understand half of it but when you look back you think what age would you have been then like 20 27 27 maybe 28 I'm not making excuses certainly not for you Tim but I think when you're in your 20s as well you're just not thinking you just don't think even when you get in your 30s you start kind of a bit more of a bloke I think if Ray would have been a little bit no I'm not blaming Ray it's obviously my fault but I think having said it to him I'm not sure there was too much resistance are saying, listen mate, I've had it before with players when I've been a manager and they say, I'm not going to this, I'm not going to meet up, I don't want to play for this country anymore and I used to say, I can get a hold of yourself and I tell them, benefit of experience, tell them the story and say, don't forget where you come from.

1:07:35It's playing for your country so it's a huge regret of mine and it will live with me. Say something a little bit different, did you always want to be a manager when you was a player? Never. Never, never, never, ever, never. What was the moment that changed it for you? Oh, okay. You got used to... Harry Spurs, you weren't obviously the manager when you went in at Spurs. No, but Harry invited me back in there to work with him with the first team. I used to sit upstairs and watch from that viewpoint, which is much better than... I mean, you used to that at last, didn't you? Yeah. I remember seeing Old Trafford one time.

1:08:06We'd sit up and come down at half. Before the game, we'd sit there, watch him train during the week, have conversations. So was Harry always saying to you, like, doing that, was he always like, would he say to you you know you could be a good manager someday like why why did he bring you in to do that I knew him because I played for him at Portsmouth and he knew I told the truth even if I it was against what he felt I would just have an opinion and he would use it I mean I will give you one example and it's a good one and they played in the Champions League one of them in San Siro Gomez gets sent off and we're losing the game and heavily losing the game just before half time he gets sent off so as I go down there Harry comes in I mean like red as Man United shirt I mean the blood pressure and I was looking at I was like fuming and he's saying what do you think I said take Gareth off I said take Gareth off I said we've still got a chance of qualifying the ultimate the objective at that club was to finish in the Champions League spot so we had a chance via the league to be able to do that if we lost Gareth Bauer I think there was little chance we would be able to achieve it fucking what yeah I said bring him off are you fucking mad he's going I said anyway leaves him on we end up getting beat I'm not sure what to score but he scores a couple of goals Gareth absolute murders Macon the right back in the second leg we end up going through we end up going through like that well that is the man he rolls the dice has the art of management sometimes and Fergie was one of the best at it.

1:09:46It's not always conservative. Sometimes you have to roll the dice and you have to trust your gut. He trusted it that day. I was thinking, more logical. I was out of the heat of it. I'm not the one standing in that technical area looking from above thinking, you know what, the last thing we're going to get beat here anyway. The last thing we can do is lose Gareth Bowe. If we lose Gareth Bowe, we're not going to finish in the top four either. He made the big call and he gets them right. That's why he was a top jaw manager. It's funny, isn't it, with Harry. I've been in his company numerous times loveliest loveliest bloke ever but every now and again I'd see that that not quite sightseeing but I think oh fucking hell he can he can rein you in a little bit you know what I mean he can give you a bit of a ball just a bit talk about your manager managerial career as well Tim you brought two special young players through didn't you you think of Harry and Jack Grealish did you ever think they'd be as good as he was I know it's impossible to think they'd be as good as but you knew there was a talent I knew there was a talent I knew there was something to work with especially if you've taken in isolation Harry Harry had a mentality like I've never seen before well probably I saw it not as I saw him as a young boy yeah but he was Alan Shearer the mentality of Alan Shearer you know when I saw I saw him the first time I did a TNT game and I sat to him I can't remember he scored a header he might have been against Arsenal actually I just thought Ruud van Nistelro as soon as I saw him because he had that really clean finish and it was ruthless.

1:11:14Just what you'd say, just for the people listening or watching, just tell us a little bit about what you mean by that Alan Shearer mentality. Well, in training, when Alan first come to Blackburn in pre-season, he was like last in all the running. Like he was a bit old school, you know, long distance runs, he was useless. And we were saying, what have we signed here? This kid can't even move. That sounds a bit like me. As soon as the balls come out, mate, you couldn't catch him. You used to stick his finger in your eyes and get away. He used to keep changing the nets because he hit the balls in them so many times.

1:11:47I mean, it was just incredible. But he used to work on his game. But not just stupid finishing, like pass it in there, get it back. Real stuff like turning, edge of the box, turning his right foot, smashing it, hitting the target, working the goalkeeper on his left foot. Headers coming in from either side. Working in his trade, just like Harry Kane. I would always demand that as a development coach. which I would say we're going to do this, but I didn't have to tell him because he was doing it anyway. See, now the sports scientists are on the pitch saying, oh, come off because you're in the red zone.

1:12:18You need to do that. I say, no, no, fucking leave that. What are you talking about? The kid needs to have a career. He needs to get better at his left foot, his right foot, he's heading. They need that hold up play. So leave them alone. Now they're turning because they want them to be fit, but they're not physically fit and they're not ready. But them two boys, their mentality is to want to be better and not feel like there was a ceiling and they've reached it. Harry now still believes he can go and go and go and that's what he's proven it's incredible his mentality is incredible how important sorry Paddy how important do you think it was because they both went on loan to lower league clubs how important is it that was crucial because I think the best thing for him is to do what Phil Foden's done in an ideal world it's to stay around play around with the best players and when Phil comes through he has some good professionals there we talked about it earlier about having the top professionals around.

1:13:09I'm not sure there was that many top professionals around at Tottenham. He wasn't getting the training time, let alone the game time, Harry Kane. So the next best thing, I'm a firm believer, you play lower age groups, then you play under 18. After that, there should not be a league. You should not have an under 21 league. They should then be going out, get them out, get them out to play. because if you're 21 and you're at Tottenham or Man United or Man City or Chelsea you shouldn't be there if you're not in the first team squad you shouldn't be there so go and play some competitive football and that was the best thing it didn't always work out well but it was better the platform what I was giving him was better than staying around playing in a game where every game looks the same like on a 21 game like I'm playing them now it doesn't really matter what the result is when you're going to a lot of league club you might be trying to save a manager's job Yeah, you have to.

1:14:03And he learned that. And he probably not wrapped in cotton wool as much either, so it just exposes you to the game. He learned that, especially at Millwall, because that was a tough environment. We got like, why have we got this kid from Tottenham, you know, coming to our place? It's a hostile environment. I used to go and watch him. And he was taking some stick, if he hadn't scored and stuff like that. And then I remember someone saying to Harry once, Harry Redknapp, you've got to take Harry Kane away from Millwall. So I overheard, I go, what? He goes, I said, why? He goes, oh, I went there last night.

1:14:35I said, I was there last night. Perfect for him. I said, great for him. Brilliant environment for him to learn and mature. That's what we need. He needs to, and I know the kid. I know he can handle it. He's not going to buckle. And if he buckles, then he ain't going to be a player anyway. So we need, that was a great environment. So it was just a learning curve and a great development pathway for him. And I just think it's the best way just to get out there and expose them to competitive football, which means something. Well, there's under-21 football, like I say. It's like a chess match. I mean, I can tell you every game in that league and it looks exactly the same.

1:15:08Every game is the same. Same. It's interesting you're saying about Harry Kane and Jack Grealish, but they're two totally different personalities. As a manager, kind of, how do you, when you've got a player like Harry who's sort of in the zone, quite, his interviews are always that level. scores the goals and you've got some like Grealish who's a bit more like Maverick man of both zone and I think that's why fans love that I see a lot of Jack in me I used to say to Jack I used to say how do you handle on ball I could understand Jack more than I could Harry I used to say to Harry why don't you go and have a drink mate

1:15:54but with Jack I was Jack I used to say to Jack when he was having a few problems off the field I used to bring him in and used to be like worried of what I might have felt and I'm sorry and all that so Jack listen there's nothing you've done I haven't done I know it I can smell it and I know but what I want you to do is give everything when you're here and play well and if you play and you perform like I know you can you'll play for me I said the off the field stuff you'll eventually the penny will drop yeah with you yeah you can I said but that happens it happened to me but let me tell you if you can perform for me you're in my side because you make a difference and I think that chat and I've spent I speak to Jack still now I think the chat we had the honest chats and we had a few of them I mean it didn't just yeah you know the penny didn't drop straight away we had a few chats and And he was almost like, I want to run for a brick wall for him.

1:16:58I want to do it because I understood it. I understood it for him. And that's the way what he said to me, how he felt about the honesty, what I give him. And in the end, I mean, I never even come near to thinking, well, I've got to leave him out. Never, never, ever. He's special. I mean, the boy holds the ball up. Everyone judges everyone by goals and assists and this and that. The boy holds the ball up better than any player I've ever had. He gets you up the pitch. Takes you up the pitch. They're like Tarkovsky now and Keane. Them boys, they must think, oh, hold on a minute, we've got a breather here.

1:17:29Because they're giving him the ball and the other boy, Njaya on the other side, Dewsby Hall can hold it up a little bit now. He takes it in. He takes it out of the pilch. He holds it up. No one can get the ball off him. And they must think, oh, got a little bit of a breather here rather than the pinball, what they've been used to over the last four or five years, you know, when they keep having to defend their box. So, no, he's special, Jack. He really is. And I think in the World Cup, I think when it's 30 degrees and we need players who can hold the ball up, take you up the field and keep possession.

1:17:56And I think he's got a real chance of getting in that squad. I hope he does, because just me as a fan, he's one of them players. And I think if you're a neutral, regardless if you're an Everton fan, City fan, Villa fan, watching England, players like him, it just makes it exciting. He's someone, like we used to say, you'd pay the entrance fee to go and watch. I think he's like that. He's got that bit of stardom. he's got that bit of character there's not many in the game and you might like your Gascoines and all I mean it's that ability that aura Moise is perfect for him yeah gives him a little bit of structure absolutely perfect Billy McKinley you know gets to know him you know they're good characters around them and they know they know the boys special so those kind of chats with Jack now what would you have been like with Harry we didn't need them chats on them side yeah yeah it's just pulling them back in just to say really with the Harry one it was like your time will come I believe in you I know you believe in yourself we just got to plan it a little bit better no more loans after the Leicester one I think I said to him when he come back no more loans how many did you have three then because he went to Leyton Orient he went to Leyton Orient he went to Norwich he went to Millwall he had a few of them didn't he hell I didn't realise he had that many yeah and then and ended up at Leicester Nigel Pearson no one was convinced yeah what age did he get in the first team then did he become that must have been quite 18 what was it so he'd been out young then I know we turned him out yeah get him out get him out get him out he's physically ready wasn't he you know he's not someone like Tom Carroll or Ryan Mason where you had to wait a little bit for him you know so he was ready to go but I love that development phase that is the best best thing ever you know because you're not governed by results you're governed by how many players you're pushing towards the first team and I was fortunate enough to push quite a few so you wrote though you've seen him lift the trophy there, how did that make you feel personally?

1:19:52Because you've been there from day dot with him, really. Yeah, and it's not always been plain sailing for him. He took some rejections and it's been some bumps in the road, but that's what's made him the player what he is. And it was great just to share it that day with his family. I mean, his dad's very influential in his brother and they've done really well for him. and people were criticising, why has he gone over there? Why has he gone to Germany? He should have stayed in England. He wanted to win. He's got all these individual trophies and the golden boots every single year and his numbers are incredible.

1:20:32But to actually not being able to lift the trophy must have been hard for him. Of course. And he knew, unfortunately, he had to leave and go to Bayern Munich to be able to achieve it. Didn't do it the year before. which would be a real blow. The pressure must have been massive. You think about it, I've been to Tottenham, I've not won anything. I go to Bayern Munich. Massive deal. Everyone's looking. I'm going to win the league the first year. And then they lose. And he couldn't do any more in the first year in order for them to be able to achieve it. Oh, incredible. I just feel like he, like you said, my huge relief.

1:21:06And I was thinking, oh my God, he's got like a private box there at the Allianz. Some stadium. I was thinking, wow, this place, we're going to absolutely, he's got a lot of his family there, his uncles, he was just going to wreck this guy I was thinking it might be my family this place would be off and then they'd be on the big pants with a big stain he comes in as a cup of tea they come in yeah well done as if like on to the next that's done let's go and do it again brilliant that's the mentality of it it reminds me he would have been how you would have been yeah what's all the fuss about yeah thanks for joining us Tim pleasure It's been an absolute pleasure, Fallon.

1:21:46You're welcome back any time, buddy. We should have Nicky off more often, really. We love you, Nicky Cowan. That would be the only time I'd been with Nicky about kicking fuck out of me.

1:22:00Thanks for joining us on The Good, The Bad and The Football. You can get us live every Monday from 6 o 'clock on all the usual channels, YouTube, Spotify and Apple.

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