A six-goal thriller and the incredible Bunny Shaw – Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30proper ding-dong merrily on high. That is all I've got, by the way. It's as you were at the bottom of the table as West Ham and Liverpool play out a draw and at the top as well, with Manchester City hitting Villa for six and Hark. Is that Chelsea I hear? Back to winning ways. We'll dissect the weekend's action, talk stickers, plus we'll take your questions and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

0:57CZ Rack, that was literally the most pathetic attempt at shoehorning in some Christmas puns into the intro. How are you doing? Yeah, I'm all right. Yeah, that was amusing. I'm blaming Amy Ruschke because she was the one that dropped into the WhatsApp chat yesterday that she wanted to put in as many Christmas puns as possible and I thought I take that challenge But I kind of failed. How are you doing? Good. Do you know what? I actually said I was going to think about them last night and I didn't. I had a nice slice of cake instead and a cup of tea and watched TV. Really, I should have been thinking about Christmas puns.

1:32So I've thrown you under the bus a bit there, really. You have. I think I'd rather have had a cup of tea and eaten a piece of cake. That might have been better. I wonder whether any morsel of tea or cake has passed Tom Gary's lips over the last few months. He has been knee deep in nappies. But look at the smile on his face. How are you doing and how's the little man? I'm very well. First of all, snow marks her effort for Amy. Absolutely fail. I'm very well, thank you. Our son is doing very well. Thank you for your lovely wishes. How did I ever need more than an hour's sleep beforehand? That's why I want to know.

2:10The human body can function on remarkably little sleep. But no, he's doing very well, thank you. And all is good here. And thank you for joining me in the terrible pun world. It was much appreciated. I appreciate your support by making me feel better, by topping me and making it even worse. Right, listen, we were treated to a Barclays WSL special on Sunday afternoon. Manchester United mounting an impressive comeback to earn a draw against Tottenham Hotspur. I mean, it was always going to be a bit spicy, this one, maybe. Maybe spicy is not the word, I'm not sure. But Spurs manager Martin Ho, Mark Skinner's former assistant, those two up against each other.

2:50Then you've got Bethany England, Evelina Summonan and Martha Thomas. And they were on the score sheet. But goals from Elatoon and Fridolina Rolfo ensured that United salvaged a point in the end. 3-3 is how it finished. What a game it was. A wild conclusion to an already fascinating encounter. Manchester United created a lot. They hit the woodwork four times as well. Spurs scored three from four shots on target. I mean, how do you begin to sum it up, Susi Rack? Can you try? Chaos? No, it was a thrilling game of football to watch. Yeah, a thrilling first half from Tottenham. Like, just so clinical.

3:31And I think that was the difference, really, because Man United were dominant in that game other than that. And that fight back in the second half was remarkable from United, but I think it spoke to the strength of their kind of playing squad as a whole. It spoke to the gap between those two teams in sort of quality over kind of 90 minutes. I think neither manager will be particularly satisfied, but also like probably walk away from it, thinking they've got away with a point as well. Interesting then when you say that, because Mark Skinner was quite forthright in his assessment post-match. 9.9 times out of 10, we win that game.

4:12Obviously, Tottenham are investing, have a lot of respect for Martin as a coach, and basically there's a lot of our DNA in what they do. It's probably clever to do as you're growing and trying to grow a club, but what I'd say is the quality that we show shows we're ahead, and we need to make sure that we stay in those spaces. Tottenham will take a little bit more time and investment to get there, but we need to stay ahead when we can. what did you make of his comments there Tom? I think there's a little bit of unspoken sort of needle behind this game I think behind the scenes I think publicly facing it's all fairly polite to a degree but I think these two teams are quite fierce rivals actually behind the scenes Back from the championship days or is this Martin versus Mark what is it?

4:59I think it's a little bit of Martin versus Mark I think it's a little bit of Tottenham having snapped up United's analyst I think it's a little bit of maybe Céline Bozé going the other way and just there was a was it a couple of years ago when Tum was sent off and then the red card was rescinded while Sumanon was actually charged with simulation instead and it all got a little I think it all got a bit boiled up a little bit I just it's just starting to look to me as though there's a little bit of rivalry here my gut feeling is Mark Skinner would have hated to lose to Martin Ho because of the reaction that would have been from supporters and on podcasts like this, where people would sort of infer that suddenly Martin Ho, his old assistant, was outperforming him in the WSL table at the halfway stage and being above them.

5:45And I think there was a little bit of that going on as well. But what I do want to say about this game is that I sort of agree with Mark Skinner about the odds there. Like, I've seen a lot of reaction about this game. And for me, Manchester United were all over Tottenham. they hit the bar four times and if they'd scored ten goals in the game I don't think it would have been ridiculous on the balance of the enemy attacks they had so I sort of agree with kind of what he's alluding to there on the kind of statistical odds of how many times they would have won the game when Tottenham were 3-0 up when we were sort of thinking on Amy's instructions like it would be Martin ho ho ho happy Christmas but oh damn that's what I could have done in the intro what's wrong with me?

6:29I'm stealing a living but when it was 3-0 up it was ridiculous like it was it was the smash and grab and then there's like sort of survive five scares and suddenly score three goals at the other end like it was yeah so I kind of understand where he's coming from with that idea of they'd have won it or not any other day Amy Manchester United had conceded in each of their last six WSL games which is the longest ever run without a clean sheet which is why again another reason I kind of found Mark Skinner's comments interesting. I get your point, Tom, and I get Mark Skinner's point, but at the same time, 3-0 down, you can't say 9.9 times out of 10 would have won that game.

7:10Where do you feel their defensive frailties kind of stem from at the moment? I think it's a mixture of injuries, which they've obviously had to Millie Turner, who had formed that partnership at the back with LaTissier so well, went out quite early in the season. Only just getting Colise Joyce back, having had her out of the line-up for a few weeks. But I think also, if you look at their squad, I think defence is probably the one that you've got to prioritise in January because at the moment, the cover for that squad, that back line is so thin. And I think these players, you look at Jade Riviere and Anna Sandberg, have played so many minutes because there's just no cover there.

7:49You've got Gabby George who's coming a little bit. Hannah Bundell is obviously coming back from having a child. So, you know, that cover is really thin. and you've got Jansen there who normally plays in Holy Newfield and just kind of disrupting the spine quite a lot recently, I think, and also fatigue playing into it. So I think it just highlights the need to act in January and how much the squad needs to be deeper. Yeah, and that is something that Mark Skinner has raised time and time again, isn't it? From a Spurs perspective, though, Susie, Martin Ho must be incredibly frustrated with the way they capitulated in the last 15 minutes or so.

8:21Do you think they kind of tried to protect the lead a little bit too soon, ended up being backs against the wall? I mean, I think they were backs against the wall for pretty much the whole game anyway. It was a dominant Man United performance. Tom kind of summed it up with the sort of number of shots and the fact that they could, you know, they could have easily scored 10 in that game. I mean, they had almost 60 % possession across the game, 45 touches in the opposition box to Spurs' 10. Like, it was... I don't think Spurs had much of an opportunity to make the decision to go, we're going to sit back and relax a little bit on this one.

9:00I think that was just the momentum of the game. When you're kind of battling that for 74 minutes of a match and soaking up that pressure and chasing the ball a little bit, that's very tiring and I think that's the difference. I don't think it was necessarily that they kind of, yeah, sat back a little bit too soon. I think it was, they didn't really have much of a choice to, you know, United switched it on. And if they do, the quality of the players in that starting XI, they should be getting more from a game. Yeah, without a doubt. 34 shots versus five, 11 shots on target versus four, 14 shots off target, four hit the woodwork.

9:42Yeah, I mean, I get his point. Absolutely, I do. But, you know, you've got to make them count, haven't you? Right, at the other end of the table, there was a quintessential six-pointer. 11th-placed West Ham hosting 12th-placed Liverpool in the battle to avoid the relegation playoff. And despite going down to 10 players early on, Liverpool came from behind twice to share the spoils and make sure that the gap between the two of them remained at just two points. It finished West Ham 2, Liverpool 2. feels massively like a missed opportunity for West Ham this, Tom. Just how frustrated is Rhianne Skinner going to be at her side's inability to hang on to the lead, particularly when you think of that Beata Olsen late equaliser?

10:26Yeah, and shout out to Beata Olsen. I believe that's her fifth WSL goal in nine WSL games, so she's been a really good signing for them. But yeah, you're so right, West Ham and Rhianne Skinner will be really, really disappointed that they didn't win this fixture playing for the last 70 minutes with an extra player. And I think that will feel like two points dropped to them and in a game where it's the proverbial six-pointer. So I think it will prove to be Liverpool's best result of the season so far. I know they got the draw with Chelsea, but this being away from home and this being with a player sent off so early, I think they deserve a bit of credit there.

11:04There's still going to be a worry that Liverpool have gone now the first half of the season without a league win, which is a remarkably poor return. But that's sort of a green shoot of recovery, perhaps, is how they've dug deep in this one and fought back to get Wardy's a pretty good point, actually, all things considered. Yeah, and it was an uphill battle for them. From the 19th minute in terms of Liverpool, Gemma Bonner's seeing red for denying a goal-scoring opportunity in the 19th minute. What did you make of that decision, Amy? I mean, it's never a red card, is it? I think it's quite clear on first viewing that Jenna Clark is, you know, kind of almost like further behind than Gemma Bonner.

11:48She's kind of like the covering defender. I was so surprised when I saw that because I just thought, you know, you look at sort of where the lines, where the assistant is and, you know, the angle that they have of the player as well as the referee. I was so shocked that that come to a red card. I mean it's one of those that gets over term but you know in the context of the game Liverpool will be frustrated because you know if they play that with 11 players if they can get a point with 10 you know can they get a win with 11 that would be such a frustrating thing because there's very little that you can do about it if you're Liverpool I suppose he takes a lot of heart really Gareth Taylor Susie from his side's reaction to what feels at the moment as constant adversity yeah it's a really tough time but There are good signs.

12:34And what annoys me is that obviously the board really haven't backed this women's team historically up to the present. And I don't know how you can watch this team and not want to back them. They're really battling. When you look at their games this season, score first against Everton, go on to lose. Score first against City, go on to lose by one goal. Score first against Tottenham, go on to lose by one goal. get the draw against Brighton, get the draw against Chelsea, halting their run before they then get beaten by Everton. Real fight against Arsenal in a 2-1 loss. Nasty 3-0 defeat to Villa, but then this really battling performance in a tour draw with West Ham, right?

13:17Like the signs are there. They've just not got the ingredients to be able to do much with. I think we spoke last week about the fact that Gareth Taylor said after the Arsenal game, he was very much saying that they needed lots of recruitment, pretty much every position strengthening, that kind of vibe. And it's just depressing because I think he's actually doing a pretty decent job there with what he's got at his disposal. And I'm just really glad that they go into this winter break league-wise with the gap still quite tight at the bottom, only two points separating them with West Ham, so that if they do get that opportunity to spend in January, they've got a chance of reversing things.

13:58So I think the signs are good, but Liverpool really need to be taken to task over their lack of support for this team. Yeah, I feel quite sorry for Gareth Taylor, actually. I never thought I'd hear you say that, by the way. I was waiting. I was just waiting for him to prove himself with this kind of opportunity, right? Like when you look at what he had at City resource-wise, you know, a group of players who played the way he liked to play and only won one trophy in his five years there, which was a league cup that's not a great return for a team of City's level of investment and standards and so like now seeing him sort of really battle you know kind of have that struggle over the way you want to play like your idea for football versus like the practicalities of the squad you've got your disposal and whether they can actually play that way and then whether you can do something with that I think is a really interesting one and like it's the biggest test of his career, right?

14:50He's born and raised in the City Academy coaching system and now he's not got that and this is like really interesting. I, in many ways, applaud him for like taking the risk on a club that has been historically so undervalued. Speaking of his former club, Manchester City made sure that they went six points clear at the top of the table as they head into the winter break with a comprehensive 6-1 victory over Aston Villa. Bunny Shaw scoring four in what was a record-breaking appearance at the Joy Stadium. I mean, where do we even start with Bunny Shaw, Tom? Look, she's not content with just reaching the 100 goals for the club.

15:28She hit 101, 102, 103 on her 120th appearance in a City shirt. She is just some phenomenon, isn't she? Best number nine in the world right now, isn't she? And has been probably over the last couple of seasons. It feels weird to say it, but she's almost like underrated despite being a perennial WSL Golden Boot winner and that sort of thing. We saw the best of her in this game in the different ways she scored some of those goals. Some with first-time finishes, some with really nice touches in the box to weave into position. I saw their previous game in person when they won at Leicester. And Bunny in that game was sort of oddly inefficient in front of goals.

16:09She should or could have scored at least four, maybe five in the first half and didn't. but kind of it never faced her and she still eventually got the crucial goals later on in the game so it was sort of that side of her strong as well the mental side is strong too and I just think she's a fabulous complete all-round striker brilliant and what a good bit of a run of four-man city you're on now really strong lead at the top of the table funny how quickly things can change because before my wife gave birth to our son obviously Chelsea was still leading the way we were talking on this pod weren't we about you know Chelsea just doing their thing and they were going to do it again.

16:44And I know I said something along the lines of, oh, I think Man City will give them a run for their money. And it got a little tone of surprise from some of our other sort of contributors at the time. And maybe at the time that was a weird thing to say, but they've since then, they have kept on winning, haven't they? And it just shows, I think, how strong their squad of players is if they're all fit, which they have been this season. Last season, they had a lot of players missing for long chunks. So with no Champions League football to juggle, they've got an incredible chance now, haven't they?

17:11in the second half of the season to go all the way. Are you claiming a small, very early prediction win on this pod? That would be wrong. Because I did say Chelsea would win the league at the start of the season. So that would be unfair. But I do think that the signs have been there. Perhaps because they lost the game at Chelsea, didn't they? And the first night of the season, they lost at Chelsea, which probably put them ever as a slight... But, you know, it was Jägerlás' first game, a difficult start to say the least. And that probably sort of, for the first four or five weeks, meant they could kind of go under the radar because they were three points behind and then you kind of didn't look at them in the table as flying high.

17:53But actually, you know, have sort of won everything since then is sort of title winning form, isn't it? There's no other way about it. And I do, I think, if you look at how close they went two years ago to winning the league when they weren't in the Champions League that season, when they missed out on goal difference and they should have won the league. We're in similar territory here now where a very strong squad of probably a core of like 14, 15 players, the core is really, really high level. Them focusing just on domestic football, I think they've got an incredible chance to win it. I just want to circle back on Bunny Shaw because isn't it insane that she's only been long-listed for the Ballon d 'Or once?

18:35Isn't that mad? in the list of 30. She's never made the top 10. I just, that blows my mind. I just can't believe it. I just... It's mad, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But we're so, as a sport, we're so lazily focused on the major tournaments, aren't we? 100%. And that's where someone like Bunny is so unfortunately not credited enough. Exactly. Or Kim Little, for example, as well, yeah. City haven't won enough as well. If you think about it, it's nearly four years since City won a trophy. It has reached a stage where you've got to win a Champions League to win a Ballon d 'Or, really, haven't you? or at least perform well.

19:07Arsenal can't do that. That's very true. By the way, producer Sof's made a really good point. City have actually lost Spunny Shaw to injury at the end of the last two seasons, which has always just derailed them a little bit. Viv Miedemar as well. And when you think about that kind of front line that City have got this season, it's been one of the standouts of the first part of the season for sure. And obviously they lost Lauren Hempfra for a long time last season. You've got Hemp, you've got Miedema and you've got Ayoba Fugino as well, all in brilliant form. And together, Amy, you know, it's very exciting to watch.

19:47I think as well, they're probably more set up to deal with injuries this season because they don't have that European football. So they don't have to rotate as much. They've got, you know, Carolyn in there. They've got Iman Benio, who looks really good. They've caught without Hemp for a little bit. like they have got a little bit more depth, especially when you take out European football to kind of cope if something was to happen, you know, knock on wood, City fans listening, to, you know, one of their star players. You think about when Bunny Shaw got injured, not last year, but the year before.

20:21And I think Mary Fowler played there and played pretty well, but at times she was sort of like, hmm, she does like this about Bunny on this. They have got Mida Ma, if they need somebody else to fill in there, who has obviously played the centre forward for large parts of her career. They've got that little bit more depth. They've got that little bit more ability to rotate. They can put those different combinations on and surprise people to an extent with that. I think this is the first season of the last three that I've not picked City to win the league because the last two just didn't pay off.

20:55So I just kept my mouth shut this year. You're in good company, Amy, that is for sure. listen Aston Villa quick one on them because it felt it felt as if we were kind of getting the old Aston Villa back a little bit over recent times narrow defeat to Spurs a dominant performance against Liverpool that win over Manchester United earlier on in November and then they go ahead and get hit for six Susie not ideal when you're heading into a winter break in terms of what that does to you mentally. But where did it go wrong for them in the game specifically? I mean, not ideal, but also like they're not going to judge their season based on the result against Manchester City, who are sweeping all before them.

21:44So I think that, you know, you go into winter break with that context in mind about their status. I think they'll be more frustrated about those sort of drop points previously to London City and Spurs in particular in recent times since their very, very good win over Man United. So they're the results that they'll probably be stewing on more than this one. Six is a hard number to concede, but we just praised the City front line to high heavens and I think they can be quite reflective of that. In fact, Arroyo was after the game. She said something about City killing everyone if you don't start the game well or something like that, which is completely true.

22:27So you get off to any kind of slower or bad start and you're going to be punished. She also said that she hopes that they can be as strong as they have been against similar level opponents and I think that is the marker for them. So yeah, it's a tough one. It's always tough to lose a game by that margin, by a five-goal margin. But at the same time, the fact that they got a goal when they're very much against the run of play for most of the game and it's against a team of City's quality who are free scoring to such an extent that they are. I don't think this is the game that is going to frustrate them when they're eating their turkey.

23:11No, I wasn't expecting you to say that right at the end. I don't know why that even made me laugh. Right, that's it for part one of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. In part two, we'll run through the rest of the WSL games and talk to WSL football's Zahra Alcantara could see about Panini and the increasing commercial viability of the Barclays WSL2.

23:41Welcome back to part two of the award-winning Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Chelsea ended an uncharacteristic three-game winless streak with a confident 3-0 win over Brighton. Sandy Baltimore and Alyssa Thompson both got on the score sheet for Sonia Bonpastor's side, where there was also an own goal from Caitlin Hayes. Comfortable in the end, Tom, it felt for the reigning champions. Never really let Brighton into the game, did they? What did you make of it all? Excellent performance from Chelsea and actually a game that on paper looked quite difficult, you know, at the back of a disappointing result.

24:16Brighton away, they're a good team, Brighton in the top half. It's not an easy place to go, forgive the cliche. and yet this was really, really good from Chelsea. Thought they fully deserved the 3-0 win. Thompson's really starting to settle into the team now. Obviously took a few weeks naturally to kind of start to feel at home. Looks the player that we all hoped she'd be now. Brilliant. And yeah, sort of, I wish I had a slightly better tactical observation brain to talk to you more about this kind of 4-2-2-2 that Chelsea are playing. But I like it. It's rare to see that in the modern game and I thought it worked quite well for Chelsea if that is indeed what Sonia Bonpastor was trying to do.

24:52If she wasn't doing 4-2-2-2, then she's probably listening to this laughing, going, that Tom Garren doesn't know what he's talking about. But I liked it. Did it slay? Do you know what? That was one of the things that I thought about putting in the intro and I thought, no, I'm far too old to do that. I can't get away with saying that comment. I don't want to be that person. I'm trying to be down with the kids when I'm quite clearly not down with the kids. Going to have to reindeer this in now. I need to stop. Oh, God. No, no, no, no. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And the one person that hasn't done any is the one person that started this in the WhatsApp group in the first place.

25:32And she's literally sitting on her chair with her hands over her face, laughing. Amy Ruschke, I'm looking at you. Listen, rotation's been a really strong feature of Chelsea's season to date. also possibly a reason for their inconsistent form. And we've mentioned it on this pod before, Amy. How does Sonia Bonpastor manage that rotation without losing the player connections that are also so key? I think also what Tom mentioned about the formation factored into that. You think about how many different setups Chelsea have had this season, which I think is one of the things that I kind of thought about with Alyssa Thompson, which was she kind of consistently played on the left wing almost exclusively when she was at Angel City.