Both Champions League semi-finals are on a knife-edge – Women’s Football Weekly podcast

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:15Suzy Wrack:Hello, I'm not Faye Carruthers. I'm Suzy Wrack and welcome to The Guardian's Women's Football Weekly. Faye's had to step away, so I'm in charge. Brace yourselves. Arsenal move a step closer to defending their Champions League title with an impressive first leg wing over Lyon. The Manchester sides have had a miserable trip down south as Manchester City show there's a chink in their armour, suffering defeat to Brighton, leaving Arsenal in control of whether the title race will go down to the last day of the season. And Manchester City slip up in the race for Champions League football, dropping points at Tottenham.

0:43Suzy Wrack:Meanwhile, it's tense at the top of the WSL too, as Birmingham's loss and Charlton's draw means just one point separates Charlton, Birmingham and Crystal Palace going into the final games of the season next weekend. Plus, we'll take your questions. And that's today's Guardian's Women's Football Weekly. we've got a very great panel for you today producer sophie is stepping in as suzy 2.0 with faye out of action uh dogs interrupting you you're really embracing the role of me today yeah i'm very unfortunately in the south of france um so you can hear some birds singing some dogs barking uh but yeah gonna do my best to to do you proud i'm really really jealous uh ESPN's Emily Keogh is joining us.

1:23Suzy Wrack:You've recovered from your extended Iceland adventure. Yes, yeah, back into full swing of things and still just reminiscing being in the Blue Lagoon and just enjoying myself while I'm working now. I feel like it's prepared us for the cold spell that keeps returning here, so fingers crossed. We've got Arsbog's team Stillman as well, who has an epic Champions League double header ahead, racking up the air miles. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I'll have been to four games in a row that will all have been Champions League semifinals. So, you know, can't really complain about that too much. That's living the dream.

2:01Suzy Wrack:Tell it to like 10-year-old Tim Stillman and I'm sure he would like die of joy. So on to the Champions League, advantage Arsenal. René Sleggers side earned an impressive first leg lead over Lyon with a 2-1 victory at the Emirates. Your brand had the visitors in the lead, but the Gunners responded with an impressive second-half performance to turn the tie on its head, thanks to an Ingrid Engenho goal and a finish from Olivia Smith. As the cliche goes, it's only half-time, but it was definitely a bit of a statement win from Arsenal, wasn't it, Sophie? What's your reflections on this game? Yeah, I think it was as good as a first leg could probably go.

2:37Yeah, there were cobwebs in the first half, but to get that result and to take that lead into Lyon, remember they didn't do that last year. They still got it over the line last year, of course. but I think it's always good to have a lead however slender it may be yeah it was a bit slow in the first half I think the international break it was the first game they'd had back so it probably took a bit of time to click together there's not a lot of squad depth at the moment the Arsenal Chloe Kelly was out as well and Leah Williamson was back in the first 65 minutes or whatever she played after injury so a few changes here and there but I think they managed it pretty okay defensively they were pretty strong there were a few errors but they covered them well I thought standout Emily Fox and Lota Woodward-Moore, I thought they were brilliant.

3:18I also credit to Katie McCabe for once again stepping into that centre-back role. She is so versatile and she performs at the highest quality when she is as well. But yeah, I think the only thing that they'll take away from that second half is that they probably could have been a little bit more comfortable and got a couple more goals because the way that they outpressed and outcreated Lyon, I think, was very impressive.

3:37Suzy Wrack:Yeah, maybe a little bit of a hangover from the international break. I know Arsenal toiled a little bit in that first half. Emily conceded within 20 minutes, thanks to a very nice finish. What did Leon do well in the first 45 to put them under pressure, do you think? In the first half, they came out pretty controlled and pretty good in terms of possession and really trying to force us onto the back foot. And it did work, but they weren't productive enough in the final third. They only had that one shot on target, which was that first goal. And I just didn't really think, obviously, Melchie de Mornay, Jonathan Heralda said post-match that she actually wasn't available, but they had quite a lot of reinforcements on the bench.

4:12but no one really started incredibly well. And I think when you look at that front three, you look at the attack they've got, they probably really didn't do enough with what they had. And especially because Arsenal were tying themselves up in knots in that first half, you really expected Lyon to capitalise on that and really force Arsenal into more mistakes and try and get a couple more goals to extend their lead. And they just didn't really do that. So I don't know if it was a combination of things where they weren't really expecting Arsenal to come out in the second half with a lot more gumption and really a far better performance.

4:43But I just don't think they took their chances either. And I think that's probably where they lost control a bit more because had they done that early enough while Arsenal were struggling, it wouldn't have been such an open second half. And I think that's probably ultimately where they'll be kicking themselves today, reflecting on that, going, really didn't do enough.

5:00Suzy Wrack:We love a cliche, don't we? The second half was a completely different story. Game of two halves, like every player said it. Tim, they outperformed Lyon offensively in that second half. Arsenal. What do you feel Renee Sleggers and her staff tweaked during the break that proved so effective after the break? And will they be a little frustrated that they didn't score more? Yeah, I think in the first half they were rushing things a little bit. So clearly they wanted, you know, Engen and Renard, brilliant, brilliant defenders, but probably not loads of recovery pace. I think they were just rushing it in the first half.

5:33They were just too early to try that ball over the top and they kept losing it. I think they were just a little bit more patient in the second half. They were playing those through balls a bit lower as well so that they weren't just looping through to the goalkeeper. I also think there's perhaps something in the fact that Lyon possibly aren't used to being put under pressure in the second half of games because they're quite often games are over for them. I don't want to say that too confidently because there is a second leg to come, but I did think there was perhaps something in that as well. But I think overall as well for Arsenal, I think they had one player in Olivia Smith who has under 50 appearances for Arsenal.

6:13They had one player under 27 and that was Olivia Smith as well. I just think this Arsenal team, they've been together so long. They've got a lot of experience playing together and they've been through these situations before. So I do think there was something in that as well in terms of them just showing their IQ, I would say, in this competition and having played this opponent so often in the last couple of years.

6:36Suzy Wrack:Yeah, let's talk about Lyon's defending as well. Both of Arsenal's goals came about through pretty calamitous situations involving Christiane Endler and Ingrid Engen. This is a side that have only conceded nine goals in the French top division in 20 games. Were you a little bit surprised at how chaotic they looked at times, Sophie? Yeah, I think in the first half they were pretty calm. But I think as soon as that mistake came from Endler with the equaliser for Arsenal, everyone just kind of lost their heads a little bit collectively. Other than Wendy Renard, I thought Wendy Renard was very, very good throughout.

7:10But I think they just got a bit chaotic. And as Tim said, they probably haven't been in that situation very many times in the last year. I think this is their second defeat in the whole season. So, yeah, I think it probably just got into their heads a bit and it just became a calamity. I will say for the second goal, though, I think it was much about Arsenal's press and front-footedness and Olivia Smith's desire to get on the end of the shot and to pick herself up out of the heap and realise there was an opportunity for herself as anything. But yeah, it was a bit of a calamitous situation that they'll be hoping to iron out, I imagine, next week.

7:45But the communication just seemed a little bit off between the goalkeeper and the central defender.

7:49Suzy Wrack:Yeah, Tim mentioned Olivia Smith as well and her age in the side relative to everyone else in that team. I actually interviewed her on Tuesday. Really lovely. And talked a little bit about how easy she finds it to settle into places because she moves around so quick. So maybe that has helped a little bit. The young player was the recipient of some rough treatment, though, throughout for Lyon, but came up trumps with the winner. She loves scoring at the Emirates, doesn't she, Emily? yeah and I think that just speaks to her character as well that she can get knocked back in in games and still come out with with a winning goal I think it you a lot of the times you don't really realize how young she is I think just the way she plays her football and the way she carries herself you forget she's what 22 21 and I think like like Tim was saying she slots into that team so well and she doesn't look like she's a young player by a couple of years compared to to her teammates And I think, you know, she is an incredible player and she was an incredible signing for Arsenal.

8:45And I think it's been one of the signings of the season that they've been able to unlock so much more in her. Because at Liverpool, she was a really, really good talent. But I think she has taken that next step up at Arsenal. I think that also speaks to the club and how they've really worked with her to harness her strengths, but also work with the team around her. You can see sort of players have shuffled their game to really help her get on the ball in those areas and to really help her game because you know what she can do. and I think that really speaks to Sleggers and the team of how well they've been able to do the season and I think she is going to be really key for them in the second leg but I think she's also going to be really key going forward and potentially what could end up being a bit of a title race at the back end, we have to see but these next couple of games in hand I think she is going to be a key feature for them as well

9:30Suzy Wrack:Yeah, when I spoke to her on Tuesday and didn't make the piece because I didn't have enough space but she said some really, really lovely stuff about the work she's done with Renee in particular, the confidence that she's been given and the belief in her and the impact that that has had, which was really lovely. And then hearing Rene after that match speak about Liv in reverse was really, really nice too. I think they've clearly built up quite a good relationship. Thinking back to a year ago and this same fixture ended with the opposite scoreline, Lyon taking a win home, Arsenal, of course, able to turn it around in style on that occasion.

10:03Suzy Wrack:How do they handle the situation being different this time around, Tim? And do we think we're going to see a bit of a different Lyon side in this game? Because they'll be very aware of that threat of Arsenal in their ground. Yeah, I do think it'll be quite different. I mean, Lyon's team was slightly more conservative, largely due to injuries. So usually they'd have Selma Basher at left back, who's not really a left back at all. She'll push up quite a bit more than Sophie Svaba, although Svaba had a big part in Lyon's goal as well. and listen, as an Arsenal man, I was delighted not to see De Mornay on the team.

10:39She's scored three goals against Arsenal in the last three games, I think. And Jonathan Giraldes says that she'll be back for the second leg, which scares me a bit. I'm not going to lie. I think that was a significant loss for them. I think she's up there as the best player in the world and someone who's just so, so devastating and so difficult to defend against. And obviously it being in Lyon as well, I do expect it to be quite different. At the same time, I think Arsenal can take heart from the fact that, first of all, Lyon will leave space. And Arsenal have seen that in their last two games in that stadium.

11:14They've won 5-1 and 4-1. I think the other bit of heart that Arsenal should take from the second leg, if you look at the goals, I'm going to say that Lyon have given to Arsenal in the last few times that the teams have met, even the second leg last year. Again, I'm just not sure how used to being put under pressure Leon are, particularly when it comes to a high press. I'm not sure that many teams in their domestic league do that to them. And if I were Arsenal, I'd kind of say, yep, let's be solid. Let's keep our shape. But there's something for us here on the counter-attack. And if we compress them and get after them, we've seen over a few games that the goalkeeper or one of the centre-backs might give you something.

11:55Suzy Wrack:Yeah, and teams struggle when Arsenal problem solve on the pitch. as well when they're not playing particularly well like in that first half or things aren't clicking quite so well. And they start to work it out and you can see them find the rhythm of the game a little bit and they can find the openings and the second half looks very different partly for that reason. I think teams really struggle with a team that kind of starts to figure them out mid-match, don't necessarily have a response to that too. In the other semi-final, 10-player Bayern Munich earned a draw against Barcelona at the Allianz Arena.

12:24Suzy Wrack:Franziska Kett cancelled out Ivo Pajor's early opener to ensure they remained in the tie going into next week's game at the Camp Nou. Conceding early is always a concern, particularly against a side that you lost 7-1 to earlier in the campaign. How impressed were you with Bayern's response to manage to grind out a draw, Soph? Yeah, I will be honest. I was really worried for them when that goal went in in eight minutes. I was like, the one thing you do not want to do, the one thing the manager would have told them, don't concede early against this Barcelona team, because once they get going, once they get motoring, you really fear for the opposition.

12:57but they never really did that and I think Bayern were really brave in their response they really stepped up they put their, you know, a lot of teams and it's worked to some degree like when we saw Arsenal play in Lisbon last year you know, set up really structurally well I don't think Bayern have as much defensively about them I think that's their main worry this season is that the defence is a bit all over the place but they went on the front foot a bit and they started finding the spaces and they started taking the game to Barcelona and finding the width and Kett had a brilliant game until the incident where she was sent off.

13:30Penelah Hardo, of course, she's a champion, right? And she really led by example. Yeah, I think they can take a lot of heart. I think the second half will be a bit of a disappointment for them just because they sat off a bit more in the second half and kind of protected that draw. Maybe they just didn't have the energy or the legs to really take it to Barcelona. It's a lot of, you know, you're doing a lot of work without the ball, aren't you? You're doing a lot of running and maybe they just ran out of steam and to take a draw into the Camp Nou is really vital. But I think they'll look at that second half as an opportunity, maybe a little bit missed, really taking advantage.

14:02Suzy Wrack:No Bon Matty as well. So they've got a real opportunity there, which maybe Arsenal had in that first leg with Noda Mourney as well. We do have to talk about a flashpoint in the game when Francisca Kett went from hero to zero, seeing red after pulling Salma Paraluello's hair. It's sparked a lot of conversation in the aftermath. What did you make of the incident, Emily? I mean, it's the second time we've seen it in the competition in quite a short space of time with obviously Katie McCabe and Alyssa Thompson. And I think, I mean, they're two completely different incidents. And I think one thing that was sort of coming out that I was looking at with analysts was sort of the positioning of the hand and sort of one, when you're going for the shirt, if your hand is sort of, I'm doing, you won't be able to see if you're listening, but I am doing the hand movements.

14:41That depending on where your hand positioning is, it kind of shows your intent. And I think with her, it was slightly susceptible that she might have been going for her. I don't want to make, I don't know what her intention was, But I think that's quite a big thing at the minute of looking at what is the actual intention in it. And I do think, you know, you pull her, it's a red card. I don't think there's any squabbling about it. I think what I found interesting was some of the comments after the game from other players sort of saying, you know, maybe this rule needs to be reviewed. And I don't think that's something we should be going down and looking at as a potential eradication of that, because I think it's still a very needed rule in the game.

15:16I just think that a lot of it is now sort of a back and forth depending on which team you're from. And it was similar with the Chelsea-Arcel one again, wasn't it? That depending on which team you're supporting depended sort of where you sat on what you thought should happen. So I think it's just a shame that we've seen it quite a lot in quite a short space of time. And I remember we were sort of talking about is that because it's become more prominent or is it becoming a bit more of a tactic to try and go through the shirt and maybe get away with a hairball? I'm not entirely sure, but following the red card at the Euros and now a couple in the Champions League, I wouldn't be surprised if UEFA was to review how this is handled and depending what the outcomes will be from this.

15:54But at the end of the day, it was a red card. She made a city decision and she'll miss the next game. And that's going to be a big loss for them because I think Penelahard is also suspended. So I think that's going to be a big thing for them that they're going to be without those two players. And I think Barcelona said they could get Bon Mati back for the second leg, which would be an even worse sort of side to the coin if you lost two of your best players and then get one of the world's best players in the other side. So I think, yeah, they're going to have to really fight for a win at Camp Nou.

16:22Suzy Wrack:God, bye bye Bayern. That's a bit harsh. It's a difficult task with all of those thrown in. I agree with you on the hair pulling. Like for me, I don't think you can start even, you know, kind of questioning whether something is intentional or not. in that circumstance. Players love a loophole. They'll find a way, you know, when you look at goalkeepers going down for sort of tactical timeouts and things, like they love finding a loophole. So if you make some kind of rule where the intention is taken into account and you're trying to work that out, I think it becomes too grey and it just has to be hair, pull his red cards.

16:54Suzy Wrack:Like, I think that's just what it has to be, intentional or not. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see where that goes coming up. Tim, going to get a result at the Camp Nou is a phenomenal challenge for any side, as we've just touched on. What are Bayern going to have to do to prevent Barcelona heading into yet another final? Yeah, they're going to have to be a mixture of perfect and lucky, I think is the way I'd put it. You know, even in this first leg, Barca have 73 % of the ball. They have 21 shots. You know, Brutts hits the post. You know, they have chances in this game and ultimately they were probably pretty lucky to come away from this with a 1-1 even if their goal was very nicely worked.

17:33But I think without Harder as well, I think that's just such a big miss and really, really tips it, particularly with what she can offer on the counter-attack because that's the way you get Barca, right? They do leave space if you can get the ball off them for 10 seconds. And Harder is possibly the best counter-attacking player in the world, I think, when it comes to that kind of situation. So that's such a huge loss away from home. like I think with Barca you know very much like with Spain I think in one game you might be able to hold them off like this I think over 180 minutes it's so tough as I think Chelsea have found for example in the past where Chelsea maybe have got like a decent result in one leg but over 180 minutes it just really really tells I have to say I just can't see anything other than a Barca win here

18:24Suzy Wrack:It's the reason why Arsenal did well against them in the final it's one game Same as Lyon when they got the better of them a few years back in the final. One game, much easier to handle than across two legs. So that is it for part one of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. In part two, we'll catch up on a very eventful weekend in the WSL as the season enters its closing stages.

18:54Suzy Wrack:Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. There was an upset on the cards in Crawley as Brighton came from behind to beat Manchester City. A huge victory for Dario Vidicic and his Brighton team. Was this one of the upsets of the season, Soph? I think so. I don't think anyone was particularly expecting it. I think it was a great result for Brighton. And to do that back-to-back, you know, against Arsenal in the Cup and then come after the international break and back that up with a big win against Manchester City just shows a lot to Dario about his team, I think, and how they're progressing this season.

19:25And I have to say I've been a bit concerned about them at times. I think they had a really poor run in February where they didn't quite get the results that they wanted or get on a run of form. And you never know where it's going to tail off at that point or whether they're going to be able to pick up. But they've got such a big final block this season against big teams. They're facing Arsenal again. They've got obviously the FA Cup semi-final as well, a big opportunity to get to a final. So there's so much to play for. And I think you can see that within the team. They really struggled in the first half, but the way that they came back, the character that they showed, the energy that they had.

19:59And I mean, Frank Kirby, I mean, she's absolute magic. I understand why Madison Haley got the player of the match because of her two goals and she was brilliant. But Frank Kirby is the piece that makes everything tick offensively for that Brighton team. She was so intelligent, so experienced. She knows what to do in those moments. And I hope she never retires.

20:19Suzy Wrack:Me too, because it'll make me feel very old. It's like Kim Little, right? You just want them to keep playing forever. Wonderful, wonderful player. The pass for the Seke goal was just so beautifully placed and kind of away from where you think she's going to play it into feet. That, to me, summed up Fran. And also hugely impressive, their sort of runner form at this part of the season. And as you say, they had that block where they kind of weren't as strong. And huge credit to them getting back to the swing of things after Dario has come back in following the death of his dad after a bit of time away.

20:52Suzy Wrack:I think that ruptured momentum quite a bit and obviously that takes an emotional toll as well. Rado was also a coach at the club too. So it's great that they're having this great finish to the season. Man City started really brightly, Emily. Probably should have had four before half time. Where did the game get away from them, do you think? I always don't like to say things like complacency, but I think they sort of assumed they were going to have a lot more opportunities to keep getting more goals. And they have, you know, if you look at their stats this season, and they've had most chances created, most goals, you'd expect them to have multiple opportunities to have changed and scored more.

21:27But I think they sort of rested a little bit on their laurels and was a bit like, oh, we'll have more opportunities, and, you know, it's okay. Whereas actually they had to take those chances, and it was their mistake for not doing it, because then once Brighton settled and got into the game, it was a different story. And then City on the back foot, and suddenly those chances become fewer and harder to get. So I think they probably, like I said before, didn't really expect Brighton to come out so well and so strongly. And I think that is, you've seen what Brighton can do when they need to get results.