Controversy at the Emirates and Villa stun Manchester United – Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30and bring in VAR? René Slagers certainly thinks so. Will the real Aston Villa please stand up? Manchester United's title push stumbles at home and that all means that Manchester City are top of the table for the first time this season after a 2-1 win over Everton. A busy WSL weekend to dissect and some tasty Champions League games to look forward to as well. We'll discuss all that, plus we'll take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Well, listen, before I introduce the panel, I have to say a huge thank you because the Guardian Women's Football Weekly has been nominated for a Football Supporters Association Award.

1:09Really grateful for that. Thank you so much. There are some brilliant podcasts and media out there and we're nominated amongst them. So thank you very much. We are up for the Women's Football Media of the Year. And by the way, the Guardian Football Weekly is also up for podcast of the year. You need to help them out because they lost it for the first time in goodness knows how many years last year. It was stolen out of their grasp. So you need to vote for us and you need to vote for the Guardian Football Weekly as well. You just need to go to the FSA's website. Please vote. It would be really lovely if we could win.

1:45But to be honest, we are chuffed to bits to be nominated. And what a panel we have today. Susie Rack is on her way to Munich as we speak. But Tim Stillman is with us. How are you? Yeah, not too bad, thank you. Great to be back on. It's lovely to see you. I have a feeling that you might have a fair few things to say today. Probably, yeah. Marva Creel, we've done it again, haven't we? An Everton defeat and you're on. But I have to say, please tell everybody the incredible photograph that you sent me in the WhatsApp group earlier on. I just love it. well for context rather than me just explaining for those uh who listened when i was on last we were saying that um you know we don't know when there's going to be a next everton win and i should start growing my hair out like that man united guy but then susie dubbed it uh marouane fellini um hairstyle so i've just photoshopped my face onto marouane fellini's hair so i i reckon that that will keep growing yeah i'll have to keep photoshopping oh my god i absolutely love it and I mean, the guy doing that, it's so weird.

2:56There's so much more I wish I could tell you on that. It's very odd. But yeah, please, please don't. Please don't do what he's done. And actually, I think, you know, you've got a win coming. Don't you worry. But we're not going to start there. We're going to start at the Emirates because we've pretty much got used to fireworks, different kinds, it feels, every single time Arsenal and Chelsea come head to head. We love the rivalry, but this weekend's game at the Emirates was very dramatic. Didn't disappoint again. It finished in a one-all draw. Alessia Russo's late goal cancelled out Alissa Thompson's early opener.

3:33But there was far more to it than that, wasn't there? We'll come to the football shortly, but obviously the biggest headline frustratingly was the officiating series of controversial decisions that perhaps impacted the course of the game. Two disallowed goals, a potential red card, hint of offside as well for Russo's equaliser. Tim, you were there on Sunday. Talk us through the main points of contention. Well, let's take them one at a time, shall we? Now, I'll preface this by saying I think most of the decisions are borderline and understandable from the officials. So, Friedem Ornum's goal that's disallowed for offside, I still don't know whether that's offside or not.

4:13Alessia Russo we're talking a toenail I think Victoria Pilova probably should have been sent off as well but maybe the officials didn't see that clearly I also think some of those decisions were informed by what actually was the egregiously bad decision to disallow Steena Blaxtenius's goal which hits her on the thigh I mean in fairness her arms do kind of come up when she controls the ball The ball doesn't go anywhere near, but from where the referee's standing, I think that's what she thinks she sees. But that is just a really poor call, particularly when you've got an official on the other side.

4:50No one's protested about it. I think you get a feel for these things in a stadium. So, for example, when the goals scored, the actual goals scored, Russo's goals scored, when Frieda Mornham goes through one-on-one, I immediately look at the assistant referee because in my mind I'm thinking, that looked borderline. And when Victoria Pilova made that challenge, I immediately looked at my monitor to see it again because I thought, oh, that looked. But the Steiner-Blaxtenius goal, I don't think anyone does that. And so to conjure that decision out of thin air felt quite egregious. And I think that informed the other decisions as well.

5:28So I think maybe with the Russo goal, there's even a subconscious feeling from the officials. We've kind of taken a goal away from Arsenal. They probably recognise at that point they've made a mistake. so it's kind of like well maybe we'll we'll just leave the flag down for this one and even it up so the other ones the officials have my sympathy I think that's Dina Black's Stenius goal that that's the the real controversy I think yeah that was a really difficult one and her arms go back and up don't they so I can understand why the referee would see that movement and think that but that's why you've got support and you know I know that they will be frustrated with themselves for not having got that right.

6:08But I'm not sure I entirely agree that they would then level it up. I know it might subconsciously be like that, but that's certainly not, you know, what they would purposely do. Did the decisions, Marva, fundamentally change the result in the end, though, do you think? Should Arsenal have actually taken away more than a point? It's hard to say in that sense, because I do think it definitely fuelled the stadium and it definitely fuelled the players and how much they sort of upped their ante. And I think you could also say on the balance of the game, especially the first half, Arsenal were lucky to go in at 1-0.

6:44So I think when you consider everything together, 1-1 kind of seems fair, but at the same time seems unfair because it so easily could have been 2-1 to Arsenal in the end. Just a comment about those decisions. I thought what was really weird for me particularly, because I know there'll be a lot of conversations about VAR that we might get into. But I think what was weird particularly about that, that Blatisdinius decision was that that felt like a VAR decision. And the kind of calls for some of the offsides and stuff, those feel like VAR decisions where you're going, it reminds me of, I don't, I mean, I'm too young to say back in my day, but I was sort of back in my day.

7:18I remember you would get those sort of very close offside decisions and the benefit would just sort of be given to the attacker. And those are actually the kind of goals I want to see. I haven't fully, fully seen it with lines drawn. I've seen the kind of screenshots, essentially. And I don't think you can actually judge that from the camera angles that we see bullied because we just don't have that same technology. But they are so, so tight. And I just think when it's that tight, I have no problem with letting some of those goals go. I think we've seen worse be given this season for many other teams.

7:50But the Blackstinius one particularly, I just think that feels like a goal where we're looking on VAR screens to try and find something to rule it out. And that's what kind of everyone hates about VAR. So it was a real surprise to me that they decided to rule that one out because I just think if you're not fully sure on that decision, which I understand why they might have seen a hand go, but you couldn't have been that sure because if you were that sure, you would have called it up much earlier as well. So yeah, just very odd decisions. But I think on the balance of it all, yes, Arsenal can feel hard done by.

8:22And then, of course, there's the possible play over red cards. Then Chelsea can feel hard done by. And also, I think on the balance of how the game was actually played, I think 1-1 is probably fair. But you just don't want to go away from a game like that, which the atmosphere was great, maybe because of the decisions. But it was a really good spectacle for this league. And it's just a shame that that's what the focus is on now. Yeah, it is. And Renee Slagers was very frustrated post-match. The clip of her going up to the referees, shaking her head, has obviously gone all around social media. This is what she had to say.

8:54A lot of respect for referees because it's not easy. We're looking at video. If you ask me, we need justice. And that's why I think VAR and technology can help. I don't want to elaborate too much, but there's more and more at stake in the WSL. We have to look at how we grow the game in all aspects. The big question for me is where we want the investment to go. It has to be tiered in some way. It's got to be incremental. So the referees need more investment for their training, first and foremost, to help them with their development and get more coming up full time and through the pathway. and then we can start looking at investing in perhaps goal line technology, then VAR light or an alternative, obviously, because I really feel it's got to be incremental because the most important investment has got to be in the people first and foremost because they're the ones who are then going to be implementing the technology.

9:46But what do you guys think? Yeah, I massively agree with that. I think the fact that we're comparing this league to the Premier League, basically in terms of what we're expecting from VAR and what we're expecting from officiating and if you haven't got full-time referees if you haven't got referees who have that same training and that same level then how can we expect it to be anywhere near the same and then you also have to look at the fact of different stadiums and the capacity of of camera angles and infrastructure at different stadiums and I think even if we were to just implement VAR in the same way that we do in the Premier League how many stadiums would be able to cater for that in a proper way and then you have to consider okay well then if we have any league cups or different competitions even you know the different sort of champions league ones and europa league well equivalent competitions how many of those are going to be able to benefit from that system and then you've got a chop and change from different leagues and different competitions there's so much more on the infrastructure that needs to happen and i think that even though it's one of the more expensive things but the automatic offsides for example that are developing around the world i think something like that and of course goal line technology and these kind of easier ones to implement I think should be the things we start to look for in the future and how to kind of slowly get those in.

10:58Yeah so I'll preface this by saying I really don't like VAR, never wanted it in the men's game, really don't like it however I understand I'm not the only person the WSL needs to cater to. It will come one day, it's just a matter of when, of course it will. I think we've got a bit of a lag at the moment between the officiating and the quality of play but that's I think that's unavoidable and understandable and in the background the FA have been investing in this in training new referees it's just it takes time it takes a few years for that to really come through what I would hope is happening in the background is the new generation of referees that are currently being trained are being trained with VAR so that when it comes into the WSL and you know perhaps some of those facility issues are ironed out because I think a lot of the problem in the Premier League as well is one of the things we're not sympathetic enough about often as fans this has drastically changed the job of officiating overnight if so if whatever job you do if someone just drops something in and says this is going to fundamentally change it that's going to take a while there's going to be wrinkles life is messy also in the WSL we've got a quite strange situation where there's unequal really unequal media attention between individual games.

12:17This is the biggest game of the season. It's 56 ,000 people, but Liverpool-Brighton, Liverpool's goal, Lily Woodham is probably offside, but there's a couple of thousand people in the stadium and there's not as many people watching it. We don't have the same level between certain games and this game, this stadium, with this crowd, with this attention is so much different to even other games that happened this weekend. Look, technology can definitely support officials, but investment is key. PGMO need money in order to keep that support going. FIFA's used football video support, which is also known as VAR light at some of the Youth World Cups.

13:00You actually only need four cameras for that, which is the minimum requirement in the WSL now anyway. Semi-automated offside, I think we've all mentioned that previously, could easily have solved two of Saturday's incidents at least. We still don't have goal line technology, obviously. This all costs money. The NWSL have been using VAR for years. Liga F in Spain as well have brought in VAR light this season. So I think steps ahead, but again, everything costs money, doesn't it? And that's what it always, always comes back to. But the match itself was still really fascinating. Chelsea getting off to a fast start.

13:39How did they target Arsenal's weaknesses, Tim? Yeah, this was really interesting. I asked both managers about this afterwards because Chelsea have largely been playing a back three this season. They went to a back four and they left Ellie Carpenter and Sandy Baltimore on the bench. And I think there was an undercurrent to this game where the table really informed it because Chelsea didn't have to win. A draw is a much better result for them than it was for Arsenal and Arsenal had to win. but I asked both managers about Chelsea going to a back four and Renee Slager said well we did plan for that but she admitted they were a little bit surprised and Sonia Bonpastor told me that she did that because she didn't want to end up in a back five which suggests at some stage she knew that they were going to be defending and what they did and what they usually do actually is they made a really really fast start they really targeted Arsenal's left-hand side Kim Little was a massive missed for Arsenal.

14:35Mariana and Victoria Pilova as a double pivot. Those are both number 10s, really, and Chelsea were getting in behind them a lot. And I think what Chelsea's plan was, that very nearly worked, was go for them first 15 minutes, get a goal or two and then sit. And they only got one when they could have got two or three in that period. I think Arsenal did adjust after that, but I think Sonia Bonpastor sprung a bit of a surprise with their selection. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. How did Arsenal react to that in that case? And also, double question, it obviously felt like a must win for Arsenal before the match.

15:10A draw, as Tim said, not ideal for them. But equally, Chelsea are still unbeaten in the league, but some fans are worried about their current performances. So where do both teams sit after this game? Yeah, I think if you'd asked me at half time, I would have said it's actually one of Chelsea's better performances for the whole season. And I think it was a sign of, while they didn't technically play with a back three, but actually in possession, it did almost look like a back three. And then also could often look like a back five in terms of how much they were defending. But when I say defending in the first half, it felt like the defenders were defending rather than the whole system coming back.

15:48And then Kira Walsh was that sort of missing piece, which I think they've kind of, even though she's been brilliant this season, And I think that first half was probably one of her best performances and helped connect them really well in a way that they haven't been connecting in terms of their passage of play and why Chelsea fans have been a bit frustrated in the way that their team's playing. And I can see why Chelsea fans are frustrated with it because it felt like, OK, great, we're finally stepping up in terms of how we're playing and for a big game as well. And then to kind of, I don't want to just say sit back because I think it was Arsenal's push that really meant that they couldn't just sit back.

16:21you saw how much in the second half Kirill actually just got crowded out because Arsenal players were just pushing forward and you could just see that extra bit of energy. They were just all over them. And I think in that first half, that midfield too just didn't really work for them. It was too open and not having a kind of clear central defensive midfielder on the pitch. I think you could quite clearly see that. And it was almost like, I know Kyra Purnikaross came on later, but even before she came on, it almost was like that midfield didn't even matter because they were just pushing so, so aggressively that you felt the difference.

16:55So I think Arsenal can take a lot of positives from that performance because I think it shows that despite the system, they have got enough talent in that team so that when they really push forward, they can do something. But they'll be gutted that they didn't just get that win because I think if they'd got that win, a lot of nerves would have been settled and they would be looking a bit more bright for the future in terms of that top three. It feels like a really pivotal weekend, actually, in terms of the title race with some of the results. By the way, sending our best to Arsenal defender Katie Reid, who we found out the other day had ruptured her ACL in training.

17:32I feel like this is a weekly occurrence at the moment, unfortunately. So sending all our best to her. But a real upset at Lee Sports Village at the weekend. An impressive 1-0 win over Manchester United from Aston Villa at Mirri Taylor's first half finish, the only goal of the game. And actually, it's quite impressive, Villa, because although they haven't been getting the points on the board, so to speak, and question marks over what they're going to achieve this season, Natalia Arroyo's side actually got a point at the Emirates. They were a real handful for Chelsea, despite losing that game. And now they've beaten one of the other title contenders in Manchester United.

18:13How impressed were you with them on Saturday, Tim? yeah definitely there's definitely something about their setup that works better in those games perhaps when they're they're counter-attacking a bit more the way they attack they're kind of taking Rachel Daly out of the team they don't really have like a focal point but they have a few players who really rotate up front like Kirstie Hansen who had a great game here and you know Missy Bo Kearns sometimes goes and fills that number nine spot and they have Chastity Grant really overlapping so that they're actually it's difficult to identify who's going to attack the space I thought they were they were really really good in this game I thought they they deserved to win the game you know I think United will point to they had 15 shots only two of them on target they were quite bad in front of goal I think they took out Ziggiotti and Sandberg as well and I think that took a lot of their creativity away but I just think in these games Villa they press you quite a lot and the the fact that they no longer have like a number nine that kind of just stands there for want of a better phrase and United as well they're very solid centrally United you know that centre-back partnership of Letizia and Janssen that's very solid Mia Zauer in front it's very difficult to get any change out of them in that area but I don't think those are the areas that Villa typically attack so I was impressed with them in this game but you know looking at their games maybe against teams around them in the table to see what the coach can come up with there.

19:40Yeah, this is what Natalia Arroyo said. We know that for these types of games, probably no one expects us to win. So if we can take something to the point at the Emirates and these three here at United, that allows us to believe and dream bigger. But as you say, it's the points around the teams around them that is important. Manchester United's first defeat of the season, though, Marva, and Mark Skinner described the performance as very flat. Tim mentioned the shots on goal, but actually they failed to register a shot on target until the 64th minute, which is not what we're used to seeing from Manchester United.

20:13Where else did it go wrong for them? Yeah, I mean, there were a few changes, and I think Champions League coming up midweek was probably on their mind, and I think that's what we've said about this Man United team from the beginning, that they've looked really, really strong. but how can they balance a quite small squad in comparison to other teams with Champions League and I think this is the first time they've sort of slipped at that hurdle. I do understand why Skinner would make those changes. I don't think that's on him at all. I think you have to try and rotate and I think he's a bit damned if you do, damned if you don't because if he didn't then people would say well you're wasting the energy and people could get injured etc.

20:46So I understand why those changes were made. It just felt a bit like they weren't clinical either. They actually had quite a few chances towards the end, some very clear chances that I would expect them to score, which they just didn't. But it was more just the goal they conceded was not getting the second ball in the box from a set piece. It was quite just a lack of concentration, slightly lazy defending, which I don't think there's too much of a need to dissect it too much for Man United. I don't think they should be too worried about moving forward. And I think they're almost a victim of their own success of this season, where if this is where they were, But if, you know, before the season started, people would say, oh, great.

21:26Yeah, I'll take that in a heartbeat. But I think the kind of expectations of them have risen so much because they've been so brilliant this season that the thought of them losing against Villa is now like, oh, this is a shocker. But it shouldn't be because once, you know, Champions League does get going fully and we have to see them rotate their squad, I think that is where some troubles might come in. Yeah, we'll talk about PSG a little bit later on in part two of the pod. But finally, in part one, let's look at Manchester City, because with Chelsea and Manchester United dropping points, City had the chance to capitalise and they did.

22:01A hard-fought 2-1 victory over Everton. Seize them top of the table for the first time this season. And it wasn't an easy game, actually, for Andrej Jurglerc's side, Tim. Despite a bright start, they needed, you know, the experience, if you like, of Viviana Midamar and Bonnie Shaw to get them over the line. Shaw actually said there'd been a mentality shift amongst the group this season, which I thought was a really interesting way to put it. Can you see that kind of marked difference this season? And is that perhaps the reason why they managed to get over the line in this one? A little bit, yeah.

22:35I mean, they just about deserve to win the game, I think. I think kind of what's happening is, obviously, they've got a new manager playing a very different style. and I think you see this often in the WSL a new manager comes in there's a style shift and it takes everyone a few months to kind of work it out and really the real test comes for a manager after about a year we're seeing René Slagers at the moment I think we saw it at the Yona Side of Out you know after a year or so everyone gets used to you but at the moment Man City are largely playing once a week new style, new coach I think there's an element to this game in which they've got arguably maybe the two greatest goal scorers this league has ever seen and they both scored a goal and they won 2-1.

23:17I do think Everton caused them a lot of problems though. I think Everton with that ball in behind in particular quite a lot and in the first half in particular, Kelly Gargo was really getting in behind quite a lot. I thought Everton made good subs as well. Katie Robinson made a real impact when she came on and I do think this game could have quite easily been a draw. I think 2-1 City was just about right but it could easily have been 2-2. I think Everton caused City some problems here and I'll be interested to see how other teams take on maybe some of the things that Everton showed and kind of how direct they were.

23:55But Everton have a very particular style of play as well where they attract the press and then they go in behind you. And I don't think City always dealt with that brilliantly, to be honest. How impressed were you with your team, Marva? I was waxing lyrical last week. You'd have been proud of me about Kelly Gargo. on the score sheet again, creating chances. I mean, she's just brilliant. But the whole team, the work ethic was there. Should you have got a point? I think we could have easily got a point. There were two brilliant saves from Yamashita and then there was another Vignola one that just so painfully sort of crossed the line, but not over the line.

24:33So yeah, it was a really, really good performance. I've been sort of shouting into the abyss about Gago and Payne starting and how much they need to play together and how much we need to go more direct in our style of play. And it's something that we're not seeing when we play against other teams who are in and around our position in the league. But this is kind of actually what I expected from this team against a team like Man City. I thought we could hurt them in behind. And I've seen it with Man City. I thought even their opening game against Brighton, there were a lot of signs of that, how easy it is actually to get in behind them, despite them being a very, very good team.

25:08But yeah, it was a real big effort from the team. Really, really impressed with a lot of our players. But it's a little bit difficult to take so many positives away from it when it feels like we put in these performances against some of the bigger teams. Even that Man United game where we lost 4-1, we were actually still really, really in it for most of it. And then it was just we conceded the second and then we just kind of like heads went and Jess Park's just brilliant. It's like, what can you do? But we put in quite a few performances like this where we sort of change our style of play when we're playing up against more difficult teams.

25:40and that's what's quite frustrating because it just feels like well actually if we played a bit more like that against the teams in and around us I think we'd have a lot more points on the board but then when we play against these these other teams we just try we bait the press and then we try and play it through the middle and I don't think we have the players or I don't know whether it's the players or the coaching to outplay every team the WSL I just don't think we have that so while we can take a lot of positives from this game there's also an element of if you're not getting a point or three points from these games and then you're switching up your style against the other teams it just feels like what are we learning from this so I would like to see us kind of revert back to this style of football and really rely on our pace and our width and on Gago there are already rumours of her leaving in January and I think I would just I just I'm not sure I'll be able to appear on this pod after that but um hang on listen listen let me inject some positivity for you.

26:35I have a feeling you're going to be appearing on this pod very soon with a haircut. Do not worry. It's coming, Marva. It's coming. Right, that's it for part one of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. In part two, we'll look at the other games from the weekend and look ahead to the Champions League.

26:54Hello, I'm Max Rushton, an Englishman in Australia, the host of the Guardian Football Weekly podcast, but for the next few months, I'm also bringing you a new show, the Guardian Ashes weekly and I'm Jeff Lemon Guardian Australia's cricket writer in the coming weeks I'll be traveling all around Australia to every ashes test city to follow the battle for cricket's oldest grandest prize and we'll be watching every ball every nick every catch every cover drive every bit of sandpaper you know you know and every terrible joke that doesn't need to be repeated that many times we'll have all the best commentary we'll have all the best analysis from Guardian cricket expert in England, in Australia, coming to you.