England fall to France and Wales make proud but painful debut – Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30Suzy Wrack:slash Washington Wise.

0:40Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Anyone else a little bit grumpy this morning? Any reasons why maybe? That certainly wasn't the start that England or Wales wanted to Euro 2025. Defeats to France and the Netherlands respectively. and the Lionesses now have the unwanted record of becoming the first defending champions to lose their opening game of the tournament. We'll discuss what went wrong for both sides, look at Group C, plus we'll take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Well, we have a semi-panel today because Beth Fisher from ITV is going to be joining us a little bit later to look at Wales' historic day against the Netherlands.

1:24But Susie Racks with us. Susie, how are you? Tired, very, very tired.

1:28Suzy Wrack:I think I got back at about sort of 2am last night, so I'm feeling it. Ah, pods the day after an England record, first thing in the morning. Always a delight. We appreciate you joining us. I don't know whether you heard our pod, I'm assuming you did, of course. You are the co-host of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly, so I hope you did. Where you were asked whether you've sampled the local cheese. some but not as much as I'd like but tonight I am going with my mum who was out here for a few days to a very very nice well TripAdvisor's top place to get a cheese fondue so stand stand back and I'll reveal how good it is next pod okay are you a bread dipping in the fondue or a cheese spoon onto a plate dip your cheese into the fondue what kind of doer are you You've got to dip.

2:20Suzy Wrack:You've got to dip into the fondue. Anything else is ridiculous. That's part of the fun, right? Everyone loves the Jeopardy. I wonder whether Freddie has any idea how popular fondue was in the 80s. I very much doubt it. Good morning, Freddie Cardy. How are you? I'm good. Yeah, my fondue knowledge, not great, unfortunately. And I'm not lucky enough to be out in Switzerland to even try one. It's currently raining where I am at the moment, so very much missing out. and annoyed by the constant drone shots of the mountains and scenery that they're showing on TV as well. It's just not helping. No, I hear you.

2:56I hear you. Listen, I said that Beth was joining us to speak Wales, but we've got to dissect that performance last night from the Lionesses in a frustrating opening day defeat, I think it's fair to say, in Zurich. Dealt them a huge blow in their chances of getting out of Group D. It finished France 2, England 1, thanks to first half goals from Marie Antoinette Katoto and Sandy Baltimore. Kira Walsh did pull one back for the Lionesses late on, but it wasn't on anyone's bingo card, by the way, I don't think. Kira Walsh scoring England's first goal of the tournament. But as a whole, Susie, having had a few hours sleep to reflect on it, what did you make of the game?

3:38Suzy Wrack:It was just really disappointing, I think, because we know England can be better. I think also the first 20 minutes were really on it. The pressing was really impressive, particularly really, really early on. They had that great chance 39 seconds in when Lauren James fired over. She looked really, really sharp. The decision to play her over Ella Toon or Grace Clinton early on looked like a really good one. But I mean, I was going to say she faded, but the whole team really faded, particularly after the goal was disallowed. so they really struggled in midfield I mean I know Georgia Stanway has been playing and you know has got minutes under her belt for England in the past kind of few games that they've played but you know she really struggled in this match and it does make you wonder whether you know the recovery from that injury and like competitive football match fitness is really there yet but I mean you say that but Wolfe struggled as well James struggled putting James in maybe disrupted the connections between that midfield three as well, maybe, that doesn't quite work.

4:44Suzy Wrack:So, yeah, a really nice final sort of five, ten minutes where they really, really pushed for the equaliser. And Michelle Adjaman looked really, really dangerous, which is obviously like, you know, a bit of a positive to take away from it. Producer Sophie tweeted it. If she had come on maybe sort of like five minutes early, it was given just slightly longer to do something. I was thinking 75 should have been perfect on 75. Give her 15 minutes, five to kind of find her feet, first major tournament, young player, 10 to kind of get the killer instinct. Exactly that. She looked really bright. It was positive.

5:20I wonder, Freddie, whether you think that Serena Vigman got the tactics quite right. Lauren James in the 10, first start since April, as Susie said. Georgia Stanway switched over to cover the left side of midfield. Not used to seeing her there. Few other things that perhaps didn't feel comfortable and maybe contributed to some of that performance. Yeah, I think the worries we had about maybe the squad selection coming into the tournament, probably midfield, and then the fullbacks I sort of think they all came to fruition last night and looking at the stats which I don't often do I sort of like to watch the game my eyes first and then delve into the stats later but England had 32 long balls France played nine England had two successful dribbles with 10 attempted France had 10 successful so I think that tells you all and that's with England having a Lauren James in the side they weren't able to have joy against their fullbacks France's wingers had so much joy you know against Lucy Bronze we all know what Lucy Bronze can do We all know what Jess Carter can do.

6:24And I thought Leah Williams' interview said it all. You know, they did get the tactics wrong. And I don't know if Serena Viegman sort of thought any differently. But I think the fact that England, you know, did have to go long, that they weren't comfortable being pressed, I think just says it all about the lack of control they have in midfield at the moment. And I think that's the number one area they need to address going into a game against the Netherlands side that's very midfield heavy. And yeah, just the lack of, it's been such a criticism under Viegman of players Because, you know, Michelle Ajemang having that impact.

6:54And I was listening to Fran Kirby on Five Live this morning and she said Michelle should have absolutely come on a little bit earlier. And interestingly, she sort of said it actually helped the French defenders sort of focus on another player and be split between Rousseau and Ajemang. Whereas Rousseau was really marked out of the game. She was completely dominated. But, you know, when you do get your tactics wrong, you have to be able to admit that and then make changes early. And it's just not really something Serena Vigman's been able to do. Well, I don't think she necessarily in the post-match interviews that I've heard and read, she didn't hold her hands up to mistake.

7:27She said, we've got other options. She's very good at putting a different spin on it. I want to kind of go through the game a little bit. I use this word a lot on this pod, don't I? Chronologically, because actually, you know, Freddie, it was a really good start. That opening 10 minutes, you know, Lauren James on the ball so quickly, first chance of the game. And then Alessia Russo's goal ruled out from a very tight offside. All the players seem to think, and Serena Wiegmann, that it should have stood. I personally don't think you can argue an offside call is an offside call. But you look at the graphic that's doing the rounds and it's a sliver.

8:11But a sliver is a sliver. we want these you know technological advancements to to stop mistakes happening and then we complain when they actually you know show something I wonder how we would have felt if it had gone gone the other way and Serena Vigman Susie actually alluded to the fact that the momentum of the game completely shifted after that VIR check she said we started playing short passes while we wanted to get out of their press which is what they're strong in and I think that caused us some problems how and why did that momentum shift I think that disallowed goal was a massive

8:46Suzy Wrack:issue um and really like took the wind out their sails a little bit and like I know it shows a sliver on those images but like I mean it you're literally talking not it's not even a toe right like it's literally like the end of a toe like the sliver of it and I'm pretty sure I've seen evidence that suggests that VAR cannot literally like break it down to the the millisecond of of of the uh time wise like I'm pretty sure that's not possible there's a there's a there's a margin of error and the the like the idea that that could be given as an offside I think is like pretty damning on the state of the technology in the game it's not accurate enough to be able to do that narrow margin it's just not and so like when there's that margin forever and it's not as clear as an obvious as as that or more clear and obvious than that I think like you like I just think it's really disappointing because it was a really stunning goal but anyway the momentum shift it's really hard to put put it down to more than the VAR decision and the win being taken out of sales a little bit I mean we asked Jess Carter about it in the mix zone and she said I just really don't know the answer to be honest we all have days where we're just having a bit of a mare on the ball and unfortunately today there was more than one player doing that I think we all made a lot of mistakes today that we normally wouldn't make so I feel like as much as we need to review and go over it and make sure we do better there's also a lot of things in there that were just uncharacteristic of some of the players in the mistakes they're making so like I think that's the key right like it was really it was a really uncharacteristic performance I think you know LJ in the in that midfield free doesn't quite work as well as um a more midfield unit you know she's such a attacker she moves out wide a lot that kind of stuff like which then leaves it just down to Kira and Georgia in that middle and I think that that does then put pressure on them you don't get those triangles in the same way that you do if you have an Ella Toon or a Grace Clinton in that position who who do sort of I would say look at that that unit in the midfield a little bit more and with a little bit more attention maybe but you also need LJ's creativity on the pitch so it's a really really tough call and I do think it was a very very uncharacteristic performance I think Jessica was right it was it was really sloppy we know they can be better all of those players I think you know like possibly that is possibly one of the heartwarming things to take about it, they can be better than that.

11:15Suzy Wrack:We know that that, it was not a characteristic performance. And hopefully, I'm like Freddie, I'm slightly wary of that Dutch midfield. They're very, very, very good and very technical. And I think we're really in danger of going into that final match already out. Yeah, it's a must win on Wednesday against the Netherlands, unless Wales can pull off the shock of the tournament and beat France. And based on the performance that France put in last night, That looks, you know, unlikely with no disrespect to Wales whatsoever. We'll talk about their match very shortly. But I want to talk about the defence, actually, Freddie.

11:52You were mentioning earlier on, you know, the midfield was a huge problem. But I actually thought, you know, defensively, when we switched to a three at the back, it felt better and matched France up. But what I found the most interesting is neither fullback were on it. We don't see, she's definitely, as she ages, with all immediate respect and props to Lucy Bronze, who's been fantastic for England. She made a lot of mistakes. What I love about her game is that she immediately rectifies them and goes straight in to reclaim the ball, having lost it. But she just lost it way more than we were expecting her to.

12:28And I feel like both her and Jess Carter were done for pace on the wings. Those France wingers are frightening and we were exposed. There was even one moment where I think Bronze, she looks to be away down the right hand side where she was on the attack. And Selma Basher was just when almost jogged and just got the ball back where you thought Bronze would be flying through and creating a chance. Suddenly the ball was down the other end and Karshaoui had that lob. I think it was Karshaoui and almost scored for France. And yeah, I think the relationship between the centre backs and the full backs was almost a problem last night.

13:03and we know certainly from the last World Cup that Bronz likes to push forward. You look at the second goal where Williamson is sort of holding off the France attacker and she's sort of there, doesn't quite do enough but she's holding her at bay and then Bronz sort of, Williamson does enough to hold her off, almost has the defending to do herself and then Bronz almost steams back in, makes a real meal of it, gets a little bit unlucky and I think maybe almost the emotional reaction from Leah Williamson I think says it all but actually she did mention the lack of control in midfield meant the defence was tired and meant they had more work to do and that meant they were prone to some more mistakes.

13:41And I just think, certainly with Leah Williamson, maybe there's a bit of fault for the first goal. I think probably her best football hasn't really come in an England shirt. We have seen maybe more mistakes in England colours as opposed to when she's at Arsenal and that quite settled defence. And it's easy for me as an Arsenal fan to sit here and say that and then start criticising a Chelsea player in Lucy Bronze. But she did really struggle. I think that's there for all to see. I would argue she was left very exposed for that first goal because Alex Greenwood came out to support Jess Carter and then there was just this huge gap that she was having to cover by herself.

14:18I found her comments very interesting. Actually, both her and Serena Vigman used the word sloppy. We've all used it here as well. but she also said some cheap sort of emotional defending. Is that a fair enough assessment or a bit harsh? Yeah, Bronzes flying back in, putting the tackle in and making a bit of a mess of it. I think maybe that sort of refers to that because I thought that was just a really, really poor goal to concede and there were a couple of more mistakes. And the full-backs just looked really, really exposed. And even France, where they made their changes, you know, you bring in a player like Diagne, a player like Mallard.

14:53The fact that France made their changes up front I think actually they almost looked to push for more goals there was that save from Hampton that nearly trickled over the line and France really saw that was an area of weakness and I just think, I don't know how surprising this defeat is I don't think there's new mistakes, new areas of concern that have come out last night maybe the manner of it is a little bit surprising and how England were playing so well as you say the VAR decision happens and a lot of the time that really can kick the other team into gear But I don't know if these are new lessons we're learning about the Lionesses or if it's more really, you know, what we worried could go wrong is going wrong.

15:31We did say in our preview pod that the direct pace of France's wingers would be a danger for England. So that's certainly something that we did warn of without a doubt. I mean, they were a real handful, weren't they? and Marianne Catoto getting on the score sheet, incredible. And Jess Carter suffered a tough evening without very much support, as we've mentioned already. But how did France go and get the job done?

16:00Suzy Wrack:Yeah, I mean, they really attacked the wings. And I think they particularly focused on Jess Carter's side. Like, left-back is a position that England has struggled with for a long time. You know, Rachel Daly's retirement has impacted options there as well. obviously she started the Euros in that position and the World Cup and she's not a natural she's not a natural fullback as well so that I mean that speaks to the problem that England have had in the position for a very long time Niamh Charles and Jess Carter have sort of been vying it out to start this game I actually thought Jess Carter going into it was the right decision over Niamh Charles because I thought Niamh has struggled in some of the games she's played recently so to see her struggle the way she did was disappointing, a little bit sad.

16:45Suzy Wrack:That said, I think she wasn't necessarily helped significantly by the players around her either. Like, I don't think there was a really a great performance in the England side from anyone. So, you know, it was Georgia Stanway that sort of lost the ball in the middle, played a short pass that led to the first goal, which led to Carter being quite caught out and isolated. and then you know we saw sort of Lauren Hemp is I'd say probably better at tracking back than some but I did feel like Carter was left a little bit alone so I suppose it was it was the wings that they were they were really really targeting and moved the ball so quickly that made it really really hard for England to defend against and yeah Baltimore Cascarino in particular out wide were really, really causing all kinds of trouble.

17:37Suzy Wrack:So yeah, that's got to be a bit of a focus. I think the central defenders were a little bit too narrow at times. It does make you think, well, you know, Alex Greenwood was a left back, is left footed. If we're really struggling in that position, but then you're moving her away from midfield. We've not got Millie Bright, obviously, because she stepped back for this tournament. So it then causes problems elsewhere, but something sort of needs to be done to shore up that area because teams have noticed that England don't have a natural left back and are really kind of punishing that area. But yeah, I just thought they were far more aggressive.

18:12Suzy Wrack:Their press was more effective. Their movement was quicker, more accurate passing. And yeah, targeting the wings was a really smart move given how narrow the central defenders were playing as well. So yeah, just a really strong performance and frustrating. Yeah, look, we mentioned Michel Adjumang, 86 minutes. It's not a lot of time to make an impact on the game, but for a major tournament debut, she absolutely did, didn't she? She immediately ruffled the French feathers, almost scored, was a menace in the box. What did you make of her cameo? And should, I mean, we've already mentioned she should have come on earlier, that's for sure, but that's always the benefit of hindsight.

18:55Yeah, really, really impressed. And as I say, England went long for most of the game and they did it to one striker who, you know, is a very good physical player. I've covered Russo's two seasons at Arsenal and I've never seen her sort of physically dominated like that. I don't think the referee offered her a lot of protection, to be honest, but I do think you've got to give credit to the French centre-backs for doing, you know, what they were allowed to do, essentially. But, you know, Asher Mang, I spoke to a former Arsenal Academy player the other day and I said, you know, if you had to pick up one former teammate, it's going to go on and be a superstar.

19:27And before I'd even finished the questions, she said, Michelle you know and they had played together I think they were saying since under nine's level and at under nine's level opposition were terrified of her basically they all wanted to be on her team because her shot power her physicality even at that age was such a step up and I think you see that even now and she's such a mature player as well you know her positioning straight away where she comes on and she you know she really suited England's way of playing and she's justified almost in those few minutes the fact that Serena Vigman's willing to just throw her in she's not here to just experience Switzerland and be around the squad she is you know a genuine contender to get some minutes and hopefully get some more after that and I think she worked really well you know her and Russo being Arsenal teammates but they barely played together because of her loan spell but she's just a she's a good old-fashioned number nine she's a poacher all of her goals are bright and you know in within a few yards of goal a lot of the time she's really good in and around the box and just that physicality you know which Russo does have but for Ajemang to offer even more.

20:25I think there's so much more to come from her and hopefully a bit more in this tournament. Yeah, fingers crossed. You know, she was the bright spark. There were bright parts of the performance. It just was, I don't know this, just weird bookended performance. Great at the start, great at the end, messy in the middle. So let's talk about the great at the end, Susie, so that we can give ourselves some positivity and momentum and stop being so grumpy on a Sunday morning about the results. England did finish on top, had a shot blocked off the line, couple saved as well. I mean, you can argue too little too late, which absolutely it was.

21:02But what do we take? How do we use that momentum going into the game against the Netherlands?

21:07Suzy Wrack:God, I wish we had Messi in the midfield. So do I. Might break some rules though, I think, Sydney. Maybe a few. I'll take the chance. Yeah, there's a lot of heart to take from that final 10 minutes. as a question asked a couple of players in the mixed zone and they know they can fight back. That's what Elatou said in response is that they've shown time and time again that they have the capacity to come back from a goal down in games and have done it before and they felt that momentum in that final 10 minutes and you could say if they had another five minutes they would have got a goal or whatever and hindsight's a beautiful thing but I think France weathered that little storm fairly well.

21:50Suzy Wrack:They struggled to cope with Adjaman a little bit. As we've already said, her lack of time on the pitch, I think, didn't necessarily help her in that respect. But yeah, there were positives there, right? Like they showed what they should have been doing for the 90. So, you know, they showed they're capable of dominating that front side. But that said, you know, when you're 2-1 up and defending a lead with five minutes to play, you're going to sit back a little bit. The other team is going to have the ball a bit more. so it's a little bit of an outlier in terms of a pocket of the game but the fact that they had that bright spell at the end was definitely something that they can take something from going into the next one.

22:29Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. So what do they need to do against the Netherlands? Freddie, give us your tactical nous. Yeah, I think I'd bring Clinton in from the off. I think Walsh and Stanway are key. I think the way this England squad is set up you are going to have to sort of throw your stocks into those two because there isn't a lot else in all honesty in terms of those two players who can sit in front of the defence but I just think a bit more support with Grace Clinton perhaps you throw Lauren James out wide she was drifting so much out wide last night anyway and just for her to be direct against those Netherlands full-backs who were bombing on quite a lot against Wales and getting forward so there is space to exploit there.

23:16And just, you know, I know we've said it for a few years, but that tactical flexibility as well, bringing on players early. How key was that in Euro 2022, bringing on Toon and Russo? You know, this has been such an important part of England's tournaments. It just feels a shame that Serena Vigman just seems reluctant to do it, especially with England's squad depth lying up front, really, in that particular area. Difficult to know with the defence. As you say, I'd be almost be inclined if I was to change that back four to move Greenwood to left back and then have a go with somebody else alongside Leah Williamson.

23:50But again, that comes with its own risks. But I think they have to get the midfield balance right. I'd be surprised if Clinton doesn't come in or even Toon from the start. We'll be doing a preview pod on Tuesday, looking ahead to that match. Right, that's it for part one. In part two, we're going to look at Wales' Euros bow against the Netherlands. Plus, we'll catch up on the action from Group C.

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25:20Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Now, it's only right to bring on a Welsh voice for part two, so we're delighted to be joined by Beth Fisher, who's on the ground working for ITV this tournament. Hello, Beth. How are you doing? I'm loving your work, by the way. Every time you pop up in your... I'm very jealous of half of your cool outfits that you're wearing. The loose clothing is impressive. But I've been loving your work. How's it going out there? Yeah, I mean, it's been an amazing week so far. Obviously, last night's result was disappointing in a lot of ways.

25:56But equally, it was an historic moment for Wales. And I think that's what will be the memory, I hope, coming in the next few days and hopefully move on to the other games. Yeah, we'll go through the performance, shall we? It was a special day, not the result that you necessarily wanted, but incredible. Wales making their first appearance at a major tournament in Lucerne. It finished Wales nil, Netherlands three in the end. Goals from Viviana Miedema, Victoria Pilova and Esme Brugge. Look, it was a tough result, Beth, but overall, what are your reflections on the match? Yeah, I think a lot of this after the game came together, just to kind of debrief because it's been a long time coming right and I think a lot of us had this kind of feeling could we get a draw out of it you know that was our hope this would be you know the first game in this historic moment you know the Netherlands have had all the trouble on their camp so we were being very positive in a way kind of maybe too positive but I think maybe we didn't think about how much the occasion would have maybe on the players and I think having spoken to in hara jane's post-match she did say there were a lot of nerves and i think you know um especially the way the netherlands played you know it meant that they had to do a lot of running which was you know obviously tiring we know all about that and the heat so i think the overall kind of feeling straight away was disappointment but i think you've got to realize you're playing against the netherlands who in every position have a world-class player right so maybe we were asking too much of the Welsh team.

27:27I don't know. So I'm still in this kind of moment like, were we being too optimistic? Were we being realistic? But at the end of the day, like Rhiann Wilkinson said, it's a Euros, right? You know, there's only one bigger competition, that's a World Cup and Wales are here and it's a starting point. It was predictable, wasn't it, Susie? Viviana Miedema eventually breaking down the Welsh resistance in the most Miedema way as well. 100 goals for her country. It was an impressive feat in itself. And I have to say, you know, what a goal to mark 100. How many have been like scuffed shots bundled into the net?