England’s Le Tissier dilemma and Fishlock signs off: Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30revenge game against Australia. The Nations League is back and the Republic of Ireland are on the brink of promotion to League A after beating Belgium. Northern Ireland lost to Iceland in the playoffs and Spain have one foot in yet another final. We'll also see how Brazil's preparations are going to host the World Cup and discuss Jess Fishlock's final farewell. All that plus we'll take your questions and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

0:57What a panel we have today and I feel like I'm topped up with Susie Huggs because I saw Susie Rack last week. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. That was a good day. It was, it was a very good day. We spoke to the University of Derby students didn't we? We had a little Guardian panel and then Susie raced off to St George's Park. And some of the students beat me there and I don't know how. Really? Yeah, I left Ernie and they were like sat in the room when I got there. It was very odd. I felt like I was in a time machine. Listen, it's not going to be the first thing they're going to be ahead of us in.

1:32You know, the way students are going at the minute, there are some smart cookies out there coming into the industry, which is very exciting. And what a treat we have today as well. Former England captain, Barclays WSL Hall of Famer, UEFA Women's Cup winner, now head coach of Peckham Town Men, And Mary Philip, it's lovely to have you on the pod. Hi, good morning. Thank you for inviting me on. Proper debut. Looking forward to it. And somebody we haven't seen for quite a long while, Julia Bellas Trindade. How are you? Happy to be here as always. Hi, everyone. I can't wait to chat to you about Brazil.

2:07I bet you're very delighted about that, in fact. We're not usually the lucky charms, are we? But we are today because the Lioness has returned to the pitch for the first time since lifting the European Championship trophy back in July, but kicked off their homecoming series with a 2-1 defeat to Brazil at the Etihad on Saturday. Arthur Elias' side stormed into a 2-0 lead, goals from Bia Zanarato and Dudinha, but then they were reduced to 10, with captain Angelina seeing red for denying Ella Toon a clear goal-scoring opportunity. Georgia Stanway pulled a goal back from the spot early in the second half, but they piled on the pressure England, but just couldn't break down a resilient Brazilian back line in the end.

2:47And look, Susie, it was only a friendly, but it felt like a really good test to see where both England and Brazil are after successful summers. What did you make of England's performance? Yeah, I'm really relaxed. I actually thought this match was going to be really difficult. I thought a loss was highly likely, given the personnel available, the amount of players out injured, it being kind of quite early in the season as well. So I was kind of expecting it not to go amazingly well. and I actually thought performance-wise, particularly in the second half, they did better than I thought they would maybe look.

3:23Obviously, there's issues there and there's long-standing issues like the fact that they've conceded first in the last four games, albeit the three games prior led them to the Euros trophy. So, you know, like how much do you dig into that? And this sort of kind of like slow start they're having to games is clearly an issue. defensively there are problems up front like they're not being clinical enough so like there's issues obviously and uh you know you should do better against 10 players particularly in the second half but Brazil are a really good team and they're a physical team and you know when they've got a two-goal lead they can sit back and and soak up the pressure a little bit so I thought Brazil were brilliant and handled it really well but um I'm not like concerned I was asking Serena about this in the pre-match presser do fans and the media and stuff give enough leeway to the team for this kind of period of friendlies where you know nothing really matters ultimately like I think they should just really experiment and be more experimental if anything and not be worried to fail because it's the only chance we've got really to kind of really really test people out and mix things up and like none of it really matters you know if it doesn't work it doesn't matter she didn't understand leeway and i could not think of a way to describe leeway in another way wiggle room we go but is would she understand that that was the only alternative like we could come up with in a group brainstorm afterwards uh and we're thinking she's not going to get wiggle room she's going to go wiggle room what do you mean and there's no like dutch translation either so i spent most of the rest of the press conference trying to figure that out But yeah, it was a nice answer.

5:03And she said, you just want to learn in these games and figure stuff out. And I mean, the entire back line and the goalkeeper were not probably first choice if everyone's fit for this fixture. So yeah, I'm relaxed, which is what I told Serena as well. The biggest problem with this, with this kind of year of experimentation, is apathy setting in, I feel, like from the outside, I mean, and perhaps a little bit of complacency on the inside. But Susie mentioned it, Mary, that the defensive frailties again coming to light. It's happened over the last couple of years, really. And they seem to struggle mostly with direct transitional teams.

5:45Why do you think that is? England, they slowly got it together for the game. But like Susie said, at the beginning of the game, they always slow to that, gelling. It's great that they want to push up and get near attack, but you've got to read the game to start. like the fullbacks push up high really quick, which is great when you've got that track and you're in that transition. But when you're just getting the feel of the game, I think you need to read it and just be a bit slower. I mean, they got into that. I mean, in the Euros, we saw it, they started to slow down their attack going forward.

6:11And then once they got into it, they just went all out, which is hence why they ended up winning the whole tournament. And when, obviously, you saw Brazil come out and they'd actually gone like man for man, you know, as they're pushing, the whole back line seemed to have a playoff season. Should be a bit more wary of that because the fullbacks are pushing on and your two centre-backs, the most crucial two-part because obviously they're nearest to your goal, they're left one for one on there. And the guests don't seem to be, if anything breaks down, which it did, they get caught short because there's no cover coming in from your left or your right.

6:40And then both goals kind of come through the middle. Zenaretta, dynamic in there. Now she managed to get through Danwe and Welsh for the first goal, drove forward. And you saw Karl was just slightly under covering, so she was too far on your left side. and Leticia had bushed too far up so she was unable to make any effect on that right side and it was a straight dynamic crucial goal and they punished England on that and on the second goal you saw as well there wasn't enough cover in there for the midfield and again they come through that middle Tuna played the ball into Walsh and she had players around her so the only place she needed to go was to come back and you saw, I mean she played into Stamway and Walsh had just gone too far out to the left-hand side so there was no back pass for her to be able to lay into and when Zanaretto again got on that ball it was a direct drive forward and you know the goal was fully open to them and then it's a nice shot from the outside of the fort and just sunk the ball into the keeper's bottom right and you know there again on the back fort but they overcome that England did after that period where they put themselves on the back fort they did go forward, they did create chances even before the penalty and they had opportunities to cry and get a goal back and you know it just weren't dropping for them you know that little bit of luck that you need just didn't happen I mean when Tuna had gone through and got pulled down Jess on ascending off you know that free kick from Greenwood great free kick obviously denied by the crossbar and just a ricochet back straight into the car I was too quick too fast and just hit her, any other part of the body would have gone in but it just smacked straight at her head and just little things like that and you just want a little bit of luck and it just went on their side and we saw that throughout the game little things happening that almost little things that just weren't coming off for them.

8:27But like Sue said, there's not a worry there because they're still playing, they're still finding that drive forward. And yes, there was a lot of changes in the team, but you can see the players coming through. Once they get a bit more experience playing out and playing within that pack and getting more solidated together, they will be that threat that we saw coming through. And maybe a little bit of consistency as well. And we've got a year for Serena to decide whether or not Mayor Letizia is a right back or a centre back. I actually played both in this game. And of course, the conversation leading into the game and then after the game was exactly about that.

9:02This is what Maya had to say. I play week in, week out at centre half, so I feel much more comfortable at centre half. I have to think a bit more at right back. But to be honest, I'm just happy to play and get on the pitch. It's been frustrating for me. I mean, the line of I'm just happy to play and get on the pitch. We hear that all the time. And Mary, you know, you said she bombed too far up the pitch. early on in the game as well. But Susie, what did you make of Mare Letizia's comments and the dilemma, if she sees it as a dilemma, that Serena Vigman has? I think that was deliberate, the bombing up the pitch, because Serena said in the post-match afterwards that they wanted her to get forward.

9:39They were really encouraging her to do that. So it obviously left gaps, but she played the role they wanted her to play, which I guess is exploratory, right? It's a dilemma, but I also don't think it's a dilemma in that we've not got enough right-backs so she is the best available player that can play as a right back behind Lucy Bronze at the moment. It's only a dilemma if Serena has a fully fit cohort across the back line and then you play her as a centre back because that's her best position but if there's not an Ella Morris or anyone else coming through that can substitute, not substitute, deputise for Lucy Bronze as a right back then Letizia is the option and that's just the reality of the situation.

10:22The reality of the situation though, Mary, was that that's fine defensively. And I understand that they conceded two goals, but we're used to the Lionesses scoring goals as well. And on 21 minutes, Angelina is sent off, which you automatically think is going to change the course of the match, which it did in terms of England's domination, but they actually then couldn't break Brazil down and do anything with that. Is there a reason you think that they struggled? And I know we're not worried about it, a year out from the 18 months out from the World Cup, should I say, longer than that. Oh my God, it's almost two years, for goodness sake.

10:58But why was it a problem? There'd be a problem there for me if England wasn't creating chances and they did create all the chances. They just didn't get that luck of the green to get that ball in the back of the net. It opened up for them. They were able to drive forward. You saw the back line, Morgan driving forward. She was opening up the space and they were pulling the players and they were playing the ball nicely through the lines and actually getting onto the end of the ball, there would have been a problem if they wasn't. And that would be thinking, oh, my days, what's happening here? But they were still opening up Brazil at that point and they were still getting their chances off and getting their shots away.

11:29It just didn't go between the goal for them and didn't hit the back of the net, which would have been a serious issue. So I don't see a worry in there. And obviously, like I said, as soon as we were saying with Letitia going up, she's an ideal replacement for bronze when bronze ain't available because England want their full-backs attacking. they want to do that overload on the outside and when you've got a player that can work up and down that line it is a big threat and you saw England had a lot of joy especially when it went out to Mead and she was just putting the ball in early for the Toon and Mead running through the middle they were getting them shots off on goal it's just being a bit more proactive and they may get that little drop and I think they fell a little bit short on being proactive in that final third but for me there wasn't a big worry in there and there's a lot to build from And like you said, there's a year before the World Cup rolls in and plenty of time to build a team, a solid squad, I should say, not just a team.

12:21You want a solid squad so when players come out, you can put them in. You know the same job's going to be getting done. Yeah, let's focus on something positive as well, because it was a special day for Manchester City's Kiara Keating, making her senior debut for England at the Etihad, which, of course, is the home of the club that she's been at since she was 11 years old. and in doing so, becoming the first black goalkeeper to represent the Lionesses, Susie. It's been a long time coming. How do you think she got on? I think she did really well, considering we conceded two goals. I don't think she was at fault for either of those.

12:53And I don't think much more could have been asked for her in those two scenarios. Her distribution is great. We've always known that that is really strong. She's still only 21, right? And she was called up into the Seaside, I think it was in October 2023. And it's taken this long for her to pick up a single cap. So she's been patient. And I'm just excited now to see her step up a gear because I think she's one of the best options England have at the moment. Obviously, Hannah Hampton has made the job her own, but Chiara is a little bit younger than her and has really got something to her. And I think it should be really close on her heels and really putting the pressure on Hampton for that starting spot.

13:29It's only going to make the both of them better. But I was really delighted that her senior debut came at the Etihad with her family and stuff, able to be there. She grew up in Manchester. She started in Man United's Academy, went to City, I think around like 10 or 11 or something. And is a big City fan. So like it's a great way to make your senior debut, the result less so. But like I say, she's got a completely like untested back four in front of her. I mean, I say untested, they've not played together with any like level of consistency. either obviously tested or even played together as a back four in that formation and positions before.

14:09So it was new and different and there was a lack of quality in front of her left to the goals. So not her fault. No, I thought she had a very solid performance in there, very stern in there. The opening 15 minutes of the game in the past four England games, the goalkeeper's always been put under that kind of pressure and it's nice to know that she's not being left out of that ring. You know, the same happened for her. And she can't be put on the goals. They come direct at her without that protection that she actually needed. But once she's been sold into the game, you know, she did have that presence there.

14:44You know, she did have that protection in there because they kind of gelled together a bit better and they were going forward. So, you know, it's a great debut for her. And, you know, and she's definitely one to be looking forward to. Yeah, without a doubt. A quick turnaround now to Australia on Tuesday. We are recording this on Tuesday mornings. Not much point in doing too much of a preview, but you'll all remember the last time that these two sides met, it was the World Cup semi-final, a home semi-final for Australia. And England midfielder Ella Toon says it's going to feel like a revenge game for the Matildas.

15:17What challenges do you think this game's going to pose for the Lionesses, Mary? Are you expecting many changes? There will be a few changes because obviously it's going to be trial and error. They're obviously trying to new players in there to see how players are going to fit in. and what they need to do to be working on them to push them up to the levels they want them for that World Cup. But it's going to be a good game, obviously. Sam Kerr's come back into the squad. You've got the two Arsenal players. Is it Caitlin? Caitlin Ford and now I've forgotten the other one as well. And Steph Catley.

15:47There you go. So we're passing it on here. But yeah, it's going to be exciting to see how it rolls. But I do think it's going to be a good challenge. And obviously England want to go and prove a point and correct mistakes, which they started off with the Brazil game. So it'll be different. I'm hoping it's going to be a different opener, but they'll open up again and then you'll see that same attacking form. And I do think there will be a little bit of changes. They will definitely be hitting the back of that net, I think, a bit more in this game coming forward. Poor old Julia has had to listen to us drone on about England, the losing team.

16:17She's sitting there going, when's my turn? How impressed were you with Brazil, Julia? They certainly seemed up for it. It was really interesting to watch Brazil, especially against England, because it was a completely different team than the one we saw at the finalissima a couple of years ago. Of course, Brazil and England are in the same position, so they had really successful summers. And then now they are just trying to get the squad right for the next cycle. And for the Brazilians, it was about testing. Arthur had called up three players that had never played for the senior team before, and they went into the game and played really well.

16:58We had, of course, 20-year-old Udinha getting an assist and a goal, which was brilliant to see. She's one of this younger generation that's probably going to be leading Brazil in 2027. And of course, for the Brazilians, our minds are already in 2027. We don't have to play qualifiers. We don't have any more tournaments until the World Cup. So right now it's all about testing. And it was a great test. And I spoke to our two after the game about it. It was a great way to understand how Brazil can play against a team that, you know, on paper is better than them, is high on the rankings, has beat them a few times already and prepared to, you know, play under pressure while at the same time dealing with adversities early on in the game.

17:46with Angelina's red card. So it was a great test for the Brazilians and they passed with flying colors because the defense held up quite nicely. Tarsiane was huge. Some of the Brazilian fans call her Wendy Renard's daughter just because they're playing in Lyon right now. And we've struggled playing against Renard quite a lot in the past. So having her playing really well and just holding up the back line was amazing to see. And yeah, it's a really different Brazil. I feel, and from the conversations that I've had with the players after the game as well, they feel more confident. I think that in the finalism in the 2023 World Cup, the whole conversation was about, okay, we are worse than them.

18:35We have to hold back. We have to like keep our, you know, as many defensive players as possible. We have to react to them, which of course led us to have a better defense than we've had over the past years and decades. Brazil was always an attacking team, never a defending team. But then at the same time, after you build that solid foundation, then it's about, OK, now we can play against anyone. And that's basically the conversation they've been having in the dressing rooms. They've been saying, we can face anyone. We can play against anyone. We won't like, I don't know any expressions in English that can, we'll go to their throats and just like attack and try to do our best that's how they were able to score twice so quickly in the beginning of the game and you know that was what held them up because of course when you lose the players so early on you still have to fight a lot and of course England have amazing players amazing an amazing attacking system as well and for the Brazilians, it was a great test on their defence and on their resilience on the pitch.

19:43You mentioned Eugenia there, Bia Zanareto at the other end of her career, but they linked up really nicely together. And there is a player that everybody wants to know more about who, I swear, she must have retired a zillion times over, but it's like semi-retirement, isn't it, for Marta? and with the World Cup on the horizon. Are we expecting to see her at all? Is she going to play a different role? What's she going to be doing in this next year? It's funny because I feel like we've been having these conversations since 2019. It's all about Marta's new role and she's almost retiring. She keeps on going.

20:23She was going to retire after 2023. I think that was the plan. I think if she didn't have the ACL injury, She was planning on retiring before the Olympics. And then she had to stick around a little while longer because, of course, in the World Cup, she wasn't 100 percent. And she did amazing in the Olympics. And then I think she got bit by the football bug again and just had an amazing season with Pride, had an amazing season with Brazil. She was like, yeah, I think I can play for another three years and just go try to go to the World Cup. when she wasn't called up obviously Artu was asked about it and he just said look we have to test new players and we have to think about the new generation so for this call up for these two friendlies against England and Italy we had the average age was about 24 years old Marta is 38 so she's way on the other end of the career but at the same time if you follow the NWSL if you follow how she's been playing at Orlando Pride.

21:28She's been playing, you know, she's been in a great moment since the last season. So I really think we cannot count her out of the race for placing this team. And I think if you have Marta on your side, it doesn't matter. Even if she's injured, she has a different role. She inspires the players off the pitch. You can see her. She cries a lot. She celebrates her birthday every year in February. Her birthday falls into a FIFA date so people celebrate her birthday and she always cries when she gives a speech. She's really passionate about the national team. So I think as long as she can play, she will play and she will try hard to go to the World Cup.

22:08Well, I really hope we get to see her 40th birthday celebrations in the February before the World Cup in 2027, because that would be pretty special, I reckon. In terms of the actual World Cup. How are preparations kind of ramping up at the moment? You must be very excited. Is everything going smoothly so far? It's insane because when you think about the World Cup, of course, the Women's World Cup, when we have, you know, put on the beat to host the World Cup, the main idea is Brazil is already like 80 % ready. It's all about, you know, painting the stadiums again a little bit, but we are using the same stadiums that were used for the Men's World Cup in 2014.

22:50So it's slow, but at least it doesn't need a lot of work. We don't need new buildings, new training centers, anything like that. That was the main issue with 2014. They had to build a bunch of new structure around the cities and that slowed down a lot the process. But at the same time, my main issue is with how it's being promoted because it's basically not. When you look at the Brazilian media, of course, we have more games being broadcast. We have like the National League having more games broadcast. Still not all of them. When you look at clubs like Flamengo, for example, recently a website called De Bradoura is the one that I write for in Brazil.

23:36They released some images of the training grounds for Flamengo. Cristiane plays for Flamengo. And basically like tap water that's completely brown, no structure whatsoever, no gym for the players and it's you know they train in a place that is basically just for you know people to rent and celebrate parties and birthdays and that sort of stuff and they put the women's senior professional team to play there and a team that has Cristiane of course all of the other players you know already need the respect and need structure as well but when you think about Cristiane and everything that she did for the national team everything that she did for women's football all over the world.

24:16That's just so disrespectful. And they've been declining to comment on that. So you still see a lot of structural difficulties on club level for the national teams. Of course, we have the under-17s playing the World Cup right now, doing really well. We have some really interesting young talent coming up from the under-17s and the under-20s. But at the same time, it's about finding this balance And I think one of the main challenges will be the fact that Brazil doesn't have any actual competition to play over the next few years. So everything, even if we play those tournaments like she believes, these are still friendly tournaments.

24:59So I think it will be good to test the players, but the actual challenge will be difficult to find over the next couple of years. Yeah, I think that's the problem all round, it feels. And, you know, I mentioned the word at the beginning, apathy. the last thing on earth you want leading in. You want some momentum. You want some, you know, everybody to be getting on board and continuing with the support. And that's very difficult to do for friendlies. Speaking, well, it is technically a friendly, isn't it? The finalissima. That is going to take place in March 2026. But we don't actually know where it's going to take place.

25:34We have no idea. Might be in Brazil, possibly, bearing in mind it was at Wembley last time. But we'll definitely have to reunite in six months' time to talk about how both sides have progressed in that time. And it will be a fascinating meet-up wherever it is. Producer Soph is desperate for it to be in Brazil, so she can go out there for a few days. Right, that's it for part one in part two. We'll look at what's happened elsewhere so far in this international break.

26:11Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. So the 2025 Nations League also returned this week. This competition always seems to go on forever, doesn't it? Slowly draws itself to its conclusion. First legs of the semifinals took place on Friday night. Germany beat France by a goal to nil. Clara Bull on the score sheet. Spain, meanwhile, kicked off Sonia Bermudez's tenure in style, subjecting Sweden to a 4-0 defeat in Toni Gustafsson's first game in charge. Look, they're pretty set to reach the final, bar some kind of Swedish miracle, really, Susie. That performance was fantastic.

26:50I mean, can France, though, against Germany, turn it around in Cannes to make it a rerun of the 2024 final we saw? I mean, they can. Whether they will, I don't know, because France can always France and Germany can always Germany. Yeah, no, Spain were hugely impressive. You know, I'd say that I'd argue they've got one hand on the trophy already, two Puteus goals, two Claudia Pina goals. They're like picking up where they left off pretty smoothly. And yeah, I mean, the France-Germany one is going to be really interesting. You know, obviously France lost Lena Oberdorf to another ACL injury, which is a massive, massive blow, like devastating for her among a spate of ACL injuries that seem to have been announced in the last month or so.

27:33But I thought that France would beat Germany in the Euros and Germany came through that game. And I don't really know how and in style, despite the fact that they were massively depleted, players missing through suspension and injury and things like that. So Germany are always a tough team to play, no matter how good you think France are. Yeah, always, always. The Republic of Ireland, what a fantastic night at the Aviva, Mary. 4-2 win over Belgium, putting themselves in the driving seat for promotion to League A. They travel to Leuven today to try and replicate that and secure that League A spot.