England’s World Cup setback and Durham’s fight for survival – Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:15Hello, I'm Faye Carruthers and welcome to The Guardian Women's Football Weekly. The Lionesses will have to go through the playoffs to reach next year's World Cup after their heaviest defeat in 17 years. We'll reflect on the loss to Spain and the win over Ukraine and ask where England go from here. Elsewhere, we'll look at all the Nations League results. The Scotland and Wales are promoted to League A and the Republic of Ireland almost qualify automatically. While domestically, Durham are on the precipice and looking for investors to save them. We'll discuss all that. Plus, we'll take your questions.

0:46And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

0:56What a panel we have today and I missed you all last week, but Susie Rack, your roly-poly, had me tickled. How are you doing?

1:04Suzy Wrack:I should do another one, shouldn't I, just for, you know, like your benefit, really. Let's just presume I've just done one. Yeah, cartwheel this time. Upgrade it. Tom Gary, happy birthday to you.

1:16Faye Carruthers:Thank you very much. Thank you. I took in a chocolate cake to the England press conference on Monday and Serena even had a slice, which was lovely. Oh, such a teacher's pet you are. I wasn't expecting that. It was a lovely little, yeah, light-hearted moment in the end of season. Oh, I love that. Marva Creel, how are you doing? I'm very well, thanks. Just got back from a little holiday. Had to escape the North London Arsenal madness around me. So that was nice to get away from it and come back to a bit more quiet. Yeah, Susie Rack in the background. And thank goodness this is not a visualised pod at the moment because there's some glee on her face, shall we say, and some kind of arm movement going on.

2:03Anyway, I'll let you decide what kind of celebration Susie's doing. She's so happy with that Champions Cup.

2:14It's good. Anyway, she had her arms in the air, as you would do in a roller coaster, and it has been a roller coaster of a week for England. World Cup qualification came to a close, and ahead of Friday's match in Mallorca, the Lionesses were the only team to have a 100 % win rate, but that was unfortunately brought abruptly to a halt as Spain cruised to a 4-0 victory. It was such a bruising defeat, their heaviest in 17 years, and one that put them on the back foot in terms of gaining the group's automatic qualification spot. They went into that final game against Ukraine with a slither of hope that they could still do it, responded well.

2:51They beat Ukraine 3-0, but Spain's 6-1 win over Iceland saw Sonia Bermudez's side book their place at the World Cup with England left to navigate the playoffs. Massive disappointment for England not to get that automatic qualification spot. We did know it was going to be tricky but the manner of that defeat to Spain, Susie, where did it all go wrong on Friday?

3:14Suzy Wrack:Yeah, it was very disappointing, wasn't it? I think there was elements of fatigue there that maybe Spain weren't suffering quite so much given La Liga season or Premier Liga season went on until the weekend before. So there's a little bit more like match fitness in the body. But at the same time, like they had players that play in England and other countries as well. So it's not like totally like a complete excuse. And when we're talking about elite athletes at the top level of the game, like a couple of weeks should be OK to kind of dust off the cobwebs. But I think that it has been a very long season for a lot of the England players off the back of the Euros into the summer and then into a very intense season.

3:51Suzy Wrack:We know the league intensity is much higher than a lot of the other leagues, given its competitiveness around Europe as well. So, yeah, I think that was an element of it. But there was just a real lack of match sharpness. The passing was erratic. The movement was a little bit sluggish. And Spain were just really, really on it as well. And I think it was a shock that it was quite as bad a performance as it was. But obviously we know that getting a result in Spain is notoriously hard to do. It's a battle wherever you play them. So it was frustrating not to avoid such a heavy defeat that would have kept England's chances alive.

4:36Suzy Wrack:If they lost 1-0, then there would have been hope going into the final game. Although looking at the results of the final two games of the group, it wouldn't have made a difference anyway. So I suppose there's a little bit of solace in that maybe. But yeah, it's a particularly harsh, harsh way for it to happen with a defeat of that nature. Yeah, maybe a good reality check at some points, possibly, because it was the heaviest margin of defeat between England and Spain in their histories. And before that, the Lionesses had back to back wins against Spain. So what did it tell us, Tom, about where the Lionesses are right now?

5:13And was it just one of those games where everything went wrong?

5:17Faye Carruthers:I think it was a combination of Spain being in electric form and England being really poor, as Susie alluded to. And it probably showed us just how well England played last summer in the Euros final. It was a reminder of what an achievement that was. The Spain team are insanely good and technically wonderful at football. and you have to be absolutely at your top, top level. Everybody in the team has to have a good game. Everybody has to defend well. And if you think back to how well Leo Williamson and Jess Carter played in that final in Basel, rock solid at centre-back. And actually, if we think back to April at Wembley when Lottav Ibn Moy and Eze Morgan were both faultless as well, that has to happen.

5:59Faye Carruthers:And this was a reminder of what happens if you're not all playing that well and how easily they can tear you apart. But I also think, and I apologise to Susie, you just have a rant about this already quite a few times since Friday. I think England approached the game completely wrong. In terms of their tactical approach, they totally didn't read the situation of the group. Probably paying too much respect to Iceland and Ukraine because Fieber's an incredibly respectful coach, isn't she? She never assumes that anyone's going to beat anyone else. She's never so arrogant as to state or assume that England will beat Ukraine.

6:29Faye Carruthers:But we can say that because we're just being realistic. this group were all down to two head-to-head games against Spain and England were 1-0 up on Aguilera that's how I read the situation and England should have gone there for a draw I'm talking deep line, five across the back play ugly, slow down the clock, fight, battle like play all the howlsery like you're going there for a draw and that is an absolutely amazing result and instead they started the game with a high defensive line They attacked. They were sitting high. I didn't understand that it was the same formation as they would play against Iceland or Ukraine.

7:11Faye Carruthers:I didn't understand that. And with the very, very luxurious benefit of hindsight, I suspect Veman wishes they had also been a little bit more defensive in the game. But anyway, it might not have changed much. England would probably lose anyway because Spain was so good And we really need to also have the context of how unusual it is for the world champions to play the World Cup finalists in qualifying and giving them a little bit of slack as well. A frustrating one, isn't it, really? Because I think for me, they went a bit too attacking. Although I did say to someone, and we'll get onto this a little bit more afterwards, but I did say to someone yesterday, partly to have another two competitive games that they wouldn't have had with the playoffs.

8:01Faye Carruthers:The second round could be quite tricky for England. It could be Belgium, could be Scotland, could be Switzerland. The first round, I feel sorry for whoever gets England. I think it's a total waste of time. I think we're talking 15 in an aggregate. The list of teams, One of them, Kazakhstan, ranked 100th in the world, over two legs. England would much rather have gone to play Brazil in a friendly, the Americans in a friendly, Australia in a friendly in terms of preparation for next summer. So that's the downside. England fans can relax and England will surely still go to the tournament in Brazil.

8:34Faye Carruthers:And Wittmann, as we know, actually had needed the playoffs before the 2019 World Cup with the Netherlands. Still all the way to the final. She's still a wonderful tournament coach. And we can still be optimistic about next summer. but it's the lack of time to experiment now because Wigman will treat them as competitive games and probably play the first choice 11 for all four. So that's the difference, I think, compared to what we would have looked at with Autumn. It's very rare I go positive and Tom Gary turns me negative and then reverts it back to positive again. There's that rollercoaster analogy I was talking about earlier on.

9:10It was a joy. Serena Vigman-Mava described it as a hit on the chin. Look, it ultimately didn't matter, but the response against Ukraine perhaps restored confidence ahead of the summer break, which could be important. I'm going to do the rollercoaster again and maybe say no on that one because I don't think, in a way, I don't think either of those games taught us that much more about England that we didn't already know in that we know that even on their sort of worst day or when they're just okay, we know that they can put outperformance like that against Ukraine. I didn't even think it was particularly an amazing performance.

9:48I don't think we even, in that sense, learned something more about England and thought, oh, actually, no, we can play this incredibly dynamic football and very technical and on the ball. It wasn't like they showed us that, which was the thing that was the massive talent gap against Spain. So I don't think we learned that much more in that Ukraine game. Although, of course, yes, great to just get an easy, comfortable win. and then also some players getting a chance as well like being killed about it I thought that was great for her to get that chance but in terms of yeah the Spain game I don't think we learnt that much more I think in terms of a hit on the chin I think one like that's been coming for a very long time in fact we've possibly even had them but just in moments where it hasn't really mattered like I think a lot of the response to that game has talked about the lack of that sort of that talent gap of real sort of technical on the ball midfielders and just everyone just playing incredible football as Spain do.

10:40But I think in games, that game against Brazil, we were sort of outplayed recently. I think even against France, we had that in the first game of the Euros. We've seen that quite a bit with England, but we know that's not what England's strong point is. Our strong point is that when we get to tournaments, we play brilliantly, you know, sort of all together defensive football, bodies on the line. And I just don't think you can do bodies on the line, defending constantly throughout all sort of qualification stages. And maybe that is a problem. Maybe we do have to look at what is our plan B when all our players aren't fully up to it or aren't fully fit.

11:18But yeah, I don't think either the Ukraine game or the Spain game have taught us that much more. But I do think it is one for Serena to go, do I just continue like that? Because it is sort of working. And if we get to Brazil and we go far, then that is still working. Or does she look at how do we switch it up when we do have to play a very talented team and can we actually match them? Yeah, it's really interesting because I think you almost want this to happen now rather than the World Cup. But she has been adaptable in previous major tournaments. She has had a plan B when players have been injured.

11:57I go back to Keira Walsh in Australia and she had to find solutions. and she's usually pretty good at that but I kind of agree with what Tom said earlier in terms of the naivety and exactly what you said Marva that we didn't learn anything from the Ukraine game particularly. What we did learn is that they're wasteful which we've known for quite a while actually. No shots on target against Spain, chances not converted against Ukraine. How concerned are you Susie about this kind of lack of creativity and clinical finishing it's definitely a worry

12:35Suzy Wrack:the lack of creativity in particular is what most concerns me after it's almost like we've not got the pieces of the puzzle to fit quite right yet in that I don't think we've worked out the best way to get the best out of Lauren James in an England shirt yet like they've tried her in the 10 it didn't quite work out they've tried her out wide it like she's more effective there for sure but still we're not getting the best of her. And yes, she's had obviously her various injury problems that have disrupted any kind of rhythm she's been able to gain or momentum. But I feel like you've got to be kind of finding that best role for her.

13:11Suzy Wrack:And I think we've got a lot of great individuals but not necessarily a great unit. In the Spain game, you have Alessir Ruso starting in the number nine and then you drop her back into the 10 and put hemp centrally. that again didn't quite work either. I didn't see any kind of new energy from England after that change and the wide players coming on, Kelly and Mead, to any significant extent, the odd moment, but no more than they were having beforehand. And that doesn't feel like a formula that works, but yet there wasn't that much else available on the bench. I was disappointed not to see Jess Park come on.

13:49Suzy Wrack:I feel like her drive and vision and those sort of, you know kind of ball at the feet runs into the box like offered something a little bit different maybe I was also surprised I know you know Ella Toon is a safe pair of hands in big games and you know it's had a bit of an up and down season and stuff herself but I was kind of slightly disappointed not to see Lucia Kendall start again given how well she played against Spain in the reverse fixture which just again is something a little bit different and then you know with Russo playing so regularly in the 10 at Arsenal, still switching between the two, but more regularly there.

14:26Suzy Wrack:I think we've got great puzzle pieces, but all to different puzzles at the moment, and they need to figure out. And this is going to sound a bit extreme, a bit like Tuchel, right? It may work out to be a huge success or it may end up being an incredible failure. But I feel like the men's team that's been put together for this World Cup has been done on the basis of a team of players that he thinks will work together in their various positions and things like that rather than the individual quality of the player and I think that may like I say may or may work out and prove to be brilliant or prove to be idiotic on the other hand I think we've just not got quite enough of that team focus on the women's side yet it's a little bit too individual like trying to fit the individuals into the into it in a way that doesn't necessarily complement and build the team as a whole yeah and that is really interesting because Thomas Tuchel did say that to me right at the beginning when he was given the job in October 2024.

15:23He said he was going to pick the best group of players to take to the World Cup, not necessarily the best players, which is controversial because as England fans, we all want the best players to be selected, but sometimes they don't necessarily gel together and make that complete jigsaw puzzle that we've just been talking about. Let's talk about some of the players, Tom, that she left out as well and didn't use because, you know, understandably questions over team selection. Agui Biva-Jones not in the squad at all against Spain and then unused sub for Ukraine. Freya Godfrey still hasn't made her England debut.

16:07What do you make of some of the choices that Serena Vigman's making with regard to personnel? Now, there might be stuff that we don't know about the players in terms of load and things like that.

16:17Faye Carruthers:Those two really surprised me. I give you the Jones to not play any minutes across the camp, given how much she was thriving in the World Sevens tournament. I can only assume that Serena Vigman didn't take that into consideration in terms of form at all, because she was the best player in that tournament by quite a distance up there with Melvin Mallard. the two standouts and didn't get a chance so that was a bit odd and i think that saint england are quite wary of because there are now no friendlies for the next 12 months so because nations league will begin in february so there's not many chances for players on the fringe to to be tried out in a in a more experimental way and i felt very sorry for frere godfrey to not even be named in the 23.

17:07Faye Carruthers:I didn't understand why you would have a defender on the bench instead of Freya Godfrey against Ukraine. Ukraine, you had 19 % of possession. You only competed six final third passes. We didn't need to have spare defenders on the bench for that game. It was a chance to give attacking players a chance to show what they can do. And that felt really weird to me. I feel quite sorry for it. She had a very impressive season for London City Lionesses and is the sort of player that England need to be starting to bed into this squad. for not just this World Cup, but looking beyond to the next Euro. So that was strange.

17:43Faye Carruthers:Jess Park, certainly in the first half of the WSL season, was one of the standout players in the league. We'll be really disappointed with the lack of minutes she's had in this camp. And the other part, I suppose, Mayor Letizia also played quite well last night, admittedly against a very inferior opposition, but her stats were quite good right back. So it's always a difficult transition, isn't it? because the players that Wigman has trusted have been so magnificent in the major tournaments. We're talking Lucy Bronze, Ella Toon, obviously the core of that team. And it's understandable that she wants to give loyalty to that group and she knows that group can deliver in big games.

18:23But there also has to be an element of gradual evolution, which I'm not quite sure we're seeing just yet.

18:31Faye Carruthers:and then the other one I would say is that England will be really looking forward to seeing Michel Adjaman back because as Susie alluded to we haven't really got any backup striker options at the moment and there's a great one that hopefully we can welcome back who was exceptional last summer so not all doom and gloom don't panic England fans but there are minor concerns I think about how little opportunities some people are getting. Let's talk about the playoffs England now face, well, we don't know yet. Could be anybody. It's seeded, which is slight positive to it. More tension going into the autumn and jeopardy in terms of they may not qualify.

19:12We have spoken about it before, but now the campaign is kind of over Marva. And when we kind of look at the number of other teams that accumulated so many points and still didn't automatically qualify. Does this format feel not just unforgiving, but also slightly unfair? Or is that just me with my England lens on going, oh, we should definitely automatically qualify? No, I think even if we had automatically qualified in Spain or in our position, I'd be thinking the same thing, that two teams like England and Spain should be automatically qualifying when getting that many points from a qualifying group.

19:53and also you want the best teams to be at the World Cup. And a lot of people said that kind of about the men's World Cup and comparing to Italy, for example. But, you know, Italy men didn't do their job. Whereas I'd say in this qualification round, England women and Spain did their job. To get that many points and even just the seeding of it in the first place that you could have the two teams who have gone up against each other in the World Cup and in the Euros find themselves that only one of them can get through automatically. And then you look at just how it's seeded across the board and who's getting through in terms of the playoffs.

20:26I think I don't quite see the benefit of it. I understand that having some more competitive games generally as a whole makes the season and the year a little bit more interesting, a bit more entertaining. of course we always talk back to that sort of 20-0 win but as a whole when it then gets to this point and then you've got the matchup of the first round of qualification we're still going to see things like that anyway and then moving forward as well you might get a few real upsets that at this stage of women's football I don't know it is good for the tournament as a whole I don't know if these kind of one-off playoffs and having some of the better teams, you look at the teams that are going to be in the qualifiers when it's Netherlands and Sweden and then even we could be playing Belgium or Portugal.

21:22And some of these teams that it could just take a bad game. It could take one sending off. It could take something crazy like that to mean that some really expected teams don't make it to the World Cup. And I just think, I don't know if we win from that as a whole. Maybe in many years to come, I think it's great when you have a bit of an upset. But currently, and where we want to see the World Cup next year, is we want to see the best teams there. And I don't think this format particularly allows for that. Well, to be fair, Sweden didn't really do their job. They finished third. Oh yeah, Sweden didn't.

21:56We'll discuss that later. I know you've been working all of this out, Tom. The draw for the playoffs is on the 18th of June. Who might we get, basically?