Everton stun Chelsea and dissecting the Guardian’s Top 100 – Women’s Football Weekly podcast

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30Arsenal and Spurs, while both Manchester clubs also won. And we'll cast our eye over the Guardian's annual 100 Best Female Footballers in the World list. Tell us your thoughts. All of that, plus we'll take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

0:48What a panel we have today. And might I say, this is a pod first. Because we're in a studio together, in person, for the first time ever. I mean, I did remember that, you know, we were in a premier in in 2022 after the Lionesses lifted the European Championship trophy. However, with Susie Rack and Johnny Lu on a bed and me and Salon Andy Hickman on either side of the room, it's not quite the same as these illustrious surroundings we find ourselves in. Susie, how are you? Yeah, it's nice to be sitting in a chair and not lying sort of flat on my back pillows behind me with a mic like hovering over me from bedside table.

1:29Well, listen, I mentioned right at the beginning about Everton. Normally, Marva Creel, we only get you on when Everton have lost, which is quite regular, to be fair. But you've never, I don't think you've ever been on when Everton have won. So welcome. Thank you. Yeah, it feels special. Very special. Well, you've taken the record as well, which is quite something. Rich Laverty, it is lovely to see you. Is this your pod debut? It is, yeah. How, well, a pod debut and making history by being in the studio, that is special. Yeah, I can't get the image of Susie and Johnny now out of my head. It was some sight, I have to say.

2:02Did we even take photos? We should have taken photos. I don't know if we did. I think I did. And then we took like a celebratory photo at the end. All of us all on the bed. All on the bed. Yeah, I remember that. It's all flashbacks. I know. We'll have to post that up so you can all see it. It's quite a sight to behold. We might have had, I think we called it pop. If you ever do want to listen back to that episode, it is a trip. Enjoy. Right. It's over. 585 days and 34 games later Chelsea have finally been beaten in the WSL Everton put in a heroic defensive performance to secure a 1-0 win at King's Meadow of all places thanks to a first half goal from Hanaka Hayashi Marvel we've got to come to you first what a time to get you on the pod honestly I did that really girly oh yay Marvel's on this week as well that's even better first win against Chelsea since 2013 as well which is quite something second win of the season how are you feeling brilliant just brilliant it was just one of those games that like you score and I think I even tweeted I said all right just like 18 minutes to hold on for now and we've done it before against Chelsea where we scored even in the kind of last two years we've had actually some quite close calls and then also had like a 5-0 battering but we've had a few where you've gone oh okay like we kind of maybe deserve something here but it's is never going to happen is it so when we went one nil up I thought and that early on 11 minutes in I thought come on like this is it's just not going to happen Lauren James is on the pitch like it's just it's just not going to happen and then she comes off for Sam Kerr and you're going right okay well we've had our fun but with 30 minutes left it's all going to happen and then post after post got hit save after save Brosnan just incredible that Martina Fernandez uh like goal line clearance.

3:49After that, I thought this might be our day because that doesn't usually happen to us. Do you know what? I've been sat with you for about 25 minutes now and I've only just noticed your Everton sweatshirt merch. I had to represent today. It's not often I get to wear Everton merchandise with pride, yeah. And no Marouane Fellaini style hairstyle either. I actually got my hair cut. Maybe that's what that Man United fan with hair needs to do. He needs to get his hair cut already and then they might start winning five. I was going to say, they did have a 4-1 win, didn't they? But it was against Wolves last night in the Premier League, so that doesn't count.

4:26Oh, I'm sorry. Go to Football Weekly for that kind of chat. Susie, who is repping England today, I can't quite believe the run that Chelsea have been on. We joked about it, didn't we, that they might not win the title yet still be unbeaten at the end of the season, which is quite incredible. May 2024 was the last time they were beaten. Sonia Bonpastor said it was just one of those days. And as Marva said, they did create 30 shots, but only six of them on target felt a little bit Arsenal-like. Where did it go wrong? Savage. Yeah, just one of those days that they haven't had for a very long time.

5:00I just thought Everton were brilliant defensively. Ruby Mace was incredible. And you've kind of been waiting for her to have her moment since she moved from Arsenal to City, didn't really play uh it was a bit of a bit part used in different positions when they had injuries and then you know when she gets to Everton you think oh finally obviously she had the time at Leicester as well she gets to Everton you think finally is this going to be a team that is able to kind of get the best out of her and we're sort of seeing the promise that she showed back then but it's hard to pick out an individual from that defense because they were just so good and I think there was an element of luck as Marva said with you know some of those goal line clearances the ball almost going over and then celebrating like it had.

5:40I didn't think it had when I watched replays, but it's really hard to tell when you've not got goal line tech. But something isn't right about Chelsea at the moment. It's something's not clicking. And I don't know what that is. I don't think they've looked a perfect side since Sonia came in. Like we sort of said all last season, they're a team that is gelling, that they're coming together. They were a bit lucky in how bad everyone else was. they just had this mentality and vibe about them that meant they would win regardless of that and they would fight it out right like and this time around I thought the summer would be the difference a full pre-season together again like new players in the squad a little bit more settled from the previous year I thought they would really kick on performance wise I don't think they quite have and I don't really know why that is whether it's the squad whether it's too big and then there's frustrations within it about playing who's playing who's not we've not seen like consistent really really good performances from them they've been getting over the line haven't they pretty much but not necessarily in a swashbuckling way that we're maybe used to seeing from from Chelsea and we've made a lot rich about that unbeaten run but exactly as Susie said that the form has been really inconsistent back-to-back draws against Arsenal and Liverpool which now after this defeat leaves them six points behind Manchester City.

7:00If you're in Sonia Bonpastor's shoes, what are you thinking? Are you starting to worry a little bit or are you focusing on Champions League? Yeah, I think you're starting to worry a little bit. I kind of agree with what Susie just said in that it does look a little bit disjointed. And I think it was a shock in terms of it's come at home. It's come against Everton. Obviously, I haven't had an easy season so far, but it kind of felt like it was coming. A defeat was coming. And I think you look at the table and the defensive record is still very impressive, but they're just lacking goals compared to the other top four teams.

7:32And I know it's a crazy thing to say about a Chelsea team, but maybe it will click. I mean, Sam Kerr's obviously still coming back to full fitness. Ramirez hasn't been involved. I think I saw a Chelsea tweet on Sunday. I think it was Lauren James' first start in 255 days or something like that. So you're talking the start of this year. And it's just like Susie said, it's just not quite clicking in that attack. and maybe when Sam's back up to full fitness and Ramirez is back in and, you know, Lauren James is back to full fitness, then maybe it will. But, yeah, there's work to do there because I don't think anyone's kind of surprised that they have lost a game eventually because it has felt like it's been coming.

8:10And defensively, there's problems as well, right? Like in the fact that Millie Bright didn't play again, they play Lucy Bronze at centre-back instead. Like that's an interesting call. Don't really know what's going on there. But then also I think you can't underestimate the loss of Hampton too. I can't remember the stats, but the games with her and without her this season, the results are quite different. And so when you are having those games where you're not having things fall quite the right way for you up front, they would at least keep a clean sheet. Some of the draws they've had this season, they've at least been able to kind of balance it out with decent defensive performances.

8:42But that is all a little bit ruptured as well at the moment. So it's like kind of every area of the pitch isn't perfect. Equally for Everton, it was. you know which which you know you've not been able to say very much this season Marva. Brian Sorensen obviously delighted post-match this is what he said I'm so proud I'm so happy for them because we had so much adversity at the start of the season it was the second time we could put the same team out which feels a little unreal we've talked a lot about the squad depth and issues you've had with with injuries you mentioned Courtney Brosnan and how brilliant she was Susie mentioned Ruby Mace as well but how else was there a mentality shift maybe that they had?

9:21Almost like we're going to Kings Meadow, we've got nothing to lose. I've been saying for a while that I think we actually have been playing better in the last two seasons when we play against better teams than we do against the teams where we're trying to be the team in possession. And I think it's actually been, ironically, one of my biggest criticisms of Sorensen because I think that we actually look a better team when we try and play defensive football. And now we have the players on the counter-attack to be able to actually do something whereas seasons before you would try and hold off for a nil nil or maybe a one one maybe a one nil to us if we're lucky but we wouldn't actually have the players on the counter-attack to get that that goal then you're always on the back foot whereas that game against Man City I think we were very you know it was unlucky to come away with with no points there and we've been seeing that a lot when we played against the better teams it's because we just sit back and we've got a lot of defensive capability.

10:14What I don't think we have is the ability to really build for our midfield yet. I mean, Gali's been missing as well. We've had some big players missing, I would say as well. Ramsey, I don't think has been the best since she's come in. She's had a few good games, but Brosnan, you can just see she's like levels above. And I don't even think that's an insult to Ramsey. I think that's just Courtney Brosnan is actually one of the best goalkeepers in the WSL. So that was a huge to have her back. Having Gago back as well as being on and off injured. and then just being able to stick to that game plan.

10:43Ruby Mace has been playing centre-back actually for the last few games and has done really, really well, which is a shame because I think her in that number six position could be the kind of answer to building our midfields, but I'll take it for now. Maybe it's the turning point that you need. Well, we've got Arsenal next, so maybe it's a similar type of game plan. I think it could definitely be the turning point then because actually we're going to go on to Arsenal now because Steiner Blackstenius rescued them against Liverpool at the weekend. They won 2-1 in the end. And it was a must win game as well, Susie, wasn't it?

11:12They had to dig deep. Wasteful once again in front of goal. There's a theme going on here. I love this from Renee Slagers. She said that her halftime team talk was the firmest it's ever been. I mean, that's not even that strong, really. Is it firm, is it? She didn't give them the hairdryer treatment, but she was unhappy with the lack of intensity. What did you make of their performance? The first 20 minutes, they were phenomenal, which is what is so frustrating. because as soon as the goal went in, they just sort of stepped back and just let Liverpool into the game. So, so dominant. And it did look like up to that goal, they were literally going to blow them away and it would be 4-5-0 even.

11:57It was really comprehensive. Olivia Smith was on a mission. Obviously, she gets the goal, but then something switched. and I don't know why that mental shift is happening in games. It's only a 1-0 lead. It's so early on in the game. Why are you taking your foot off the gas? It's almost like they think, oh, well, yeah, this is going to be a breeze. But forgetting that there's an opponent with desire and fright, you give them an inch, any team, and they're going to sense that they can get something from it. And if players feel like there is something there to be gained against a big head, they will take it.

12:31And that's what Liverpool did, essentially. and Arsenal really on the back foot. And there was a shift after the break in that it was like then mostly Arsenal from that point once the equaliser had gone in and Rene did her not quite so hairdryer treatment at half time. But then you've got the like persistent problems they've got which are just creating really obvious chances at the moment I think is the problem. Like they dominate, they have all the ball, they get in good positions. But that final pass, that final effort and space to take it, It just isn't there a lot of the time. They're almost overcomplicating it a bit.

13:06Yeah, to a certain extent. I mean, the fact that Olivia Smith's goal was from the edge of the area, I think speaks to part of the problem. There's a lot of messing around in and around the box when it could be a lot more simple. Stina Vaxenius, she has to have 30 chances to get the goal, but she does get the goal after the 30 chances and she often gets the 30 chances. So there's positives there. She scored the harder of them, but I thought... And she always scores a key goal. I thought it was going to be one of those days, though. It felt like Liverpool would catch them and get a winner even, or it would be another draw, which would have been disastrous.

13:39You said it was a must-win. Every single game for Arsenal was a must-win if they won any kind of hope of Champions League or challenging at the top, which I think is probably pretty much gone. But the state of the league at the moment, who knows? Obviously City are the ones to catch and look great. Olivia Smith, I mean we always knew that she was going to be a fantastic signing player of the match performance and a spectacular goal it was kind of inevitable she was going to score against her former club rich I was really amazed when I looked at this the other day that that was the first time she scored since the opening day of the season probably one of the goals of the season on the opening day just thinking she is going to rip it up this season and then it's gone a little bit quiet and she's had some games where she's come off she's had some games where she's come on and like you say, it looked like she was on a little bit of a mission maybe against her former team but I genuinely think Olivia Smith has the potential to be one of the best players in the world.

14:30I really do in the next five years. And I think it's going to take time. Obviously, she's still young and obviously she's working her way in at Arsenal. But I think you're seeing those little glimpses still. Like Susie said, it wasn't a tap in, it's an edge of the box again. And I think that's what you're going to see from her a lot. And I think that's important for Arsenal because like you say, if the strikers are taking 30 chances to score and you've got someone that can do that, They used to have it obviously in, say, Jordan Nobbs, for example, could do similar. And I think she's going to be a really top, top player.

15:00Listen, don't say that because that means she's going to come into her peak ahead of the World Cup and we're bound to draw Canada. So don't say that. Beata Olsen made Barclays WSL history four goals in her first five starts. But actually, you know, Liverpool were brilliant defensively, I felt. Didn't make life easy for Arsenal. Marva. But maybe, I wonder, and this is a strange thing to say, they're a team that have actually been really struggling this season, but maybe that's been their best part of development under Gareth Taylor, potentially. Yeah, I would say the last few games they've really, really improved.

15:36And I think Liverpool fans can definitely, I think for a while they'd be watching their team saying, what are we doing here? What's happening? What's going on with our club? Even in terms of investment, which we've spoken a lot about. But I think in the last few games, despite some of the results in the end, I think they can go away going, we can actually see something building here and what we want to play. And I think with this game in particular, the only thing I'd say tactically that was a bit confusing for me was they seemed to be doing really well when they were playing in a low block. And then towards the end, as Arsenal were playing more balls over the top, they kind of conceded to that and started pushing forward more, which actually gave Blocinius more space to get in behind.

16:15and like Susie says you know you can't give her too many chances I've just got to say as well there's a brilliant tweet in the Woso culture now which is you can give Steena eight chances but you cannot give her that ninth and I think that that exactly came true but yeah I think Liverpool are really building I think unfortunately for them as well it's they concede a lot of late goals and that's what they've got to get out and I think of course squad depth comes into that because how can you keep pressing at that intensity how can you keep defending at that intensity which they were doing brilliantly that's very unfair to expect of players when you don't have the depth to come in and the talent and quality to come in to do that but there are good signs building there and I think the way the league is this year it does only really take one win to get you out of relegation trouble at least for that moment and then obviously someone else wins and then you're back in relegation trouble but um yeah they're not they're not quite adrift yet so I think keep playing how they are and the points will come.

17:13We saw it against Brighton. They almost won. It was very unlucky. A point against Chelsea, almost a point against Arsenal. That's encouraging signs for them. Well, the squad depth is a key point because Gareth Taylor was only able to name four outfield players on the bench and one was a 16-year-old in Maisie Truman. He's spoken about the need to strengthen in the transfer window. He said, I've not had assurances, but we have had conversations. Sometimes players are more likely to move to get games when there's a major tournament in the summer, which there isn't. OK, so that's potentially positive.

17:45But same old, same old with Liverpool, isn't it, Susie? You know, no assurances. That's a worry. I mean, he was really, really honest in the press conference. Like, it was really refreshing. I've been really interested to see how he does this season, because obviously he, you know, coached through City age groups before becoming City manager. And then at City, you're given a lot of resource. And you could argue that in the time there, his tenure was a bit of a failure, and that with the resource they've got, they should have walked away with more trophies. So I was really interested to see how he would do at a club where he's not completely embedded in the culture of it and the way it works is given everything he needs and it's instead having to work with what he's got and fight for stuff.

18:24I was really curious. I think, as Marva said, he's done a great job on the pitch, particularly these past few games, like the signs of progress are there and the board need to back him. We asked him where they need to strengthen. He was literally every area of the pitch. There isn't a single position where we couldn't strengthen. We need lots of recruitment. And that was like the crux of, you know, the entire conversation about it. I think he wouldn't have necessarily come into that job if he hadn't have been given some assurances at the start of the season that he'd be able to do stuff. Because he came in so late because of his contract with City that he wasn't able to have a huge amount of influence in the summer.

18:59So I think it's really important they give him money. I think he's been on a journey in this first half of the season. And I'm excited to see what they do after Christmas. But I just really, really hope they back him because, come on, I mean, if ever there was a time, like he's showing that there is an opportunity. Potential. Potential. Journey bingo, by the way. Ding, ding. On a journey. On a journey. And you talked about late goals as well. And there was plenty of drama at Brisbane Road, which Tottenham Hotspur coming from behind to beat 10 player Aston Villa. They had Ocean Deslanders sent off for a second yellow card.

19:32They've taken the lead as well, Villa, through Kirstie Hansen, but Bethany England levelled a minute later before Olivia Holt's 95th minute goal sealed all three points for Martin Ho's side. It was really important that they got that win, actually. They've actually gone four points clear of London City Lionesses in fifth. They're just two points behind Chelsea in second. What has most impressed you with Martin Ho's side since he's taken over? I think exactly what he said in an interview himself. a few weeks ago that I read. I think he just, he's changed the attitude. I think, you know, he said last season they were maybe a little bit defeated towards the end of the season.

20:11And I think he's gone in there and tried to get them on the front foot, tried to restore some belief, some resilience. And they rode their luck a little bit, you know, in the last few weeks. I think he would have been disappointed with the London City game and shipping four goals like they did. And then, you know, not capitalizing on Sunday, obviously when Villa went down to 10 players. But I think that was probably that biggest proving point of what he's done. Because I think last season when Tottenham were 1-0 down there with five minutes to go, I don't think they get a result, let alone win the game.

20:43So to come back and actually... Because they didn't have a massive shift in the summer. They didn't bring in a load of players and start again. The recruitment was very tailored. And I think you look at what he's doing and the sway that he has as well. You know, he obviously bringing his old friend from Bran over in January, which is an incredible signing because I think she, no offense to Tottenham, I think she could go and play for pretty much any club in Europe. We saw what she did over the international break again against Brazil and she's an unbelievable player. And I think we'll take Tottenham up a level and you look at the fact that they're clinging on to the coattails at the minute of, you know, a few of the top teams that are underachieving.

21:23in. I'm not saying Tottenham are going to get in that top three, but if they can keep picking up those results with that belief and they add what they're going to add in January, I think he's gone in there with a fresh attitude of this is who we are, this is who we're going to be. And because the squad isn't that different, they've made very tailored, good signings to add, I think, quality rather than quantity. And yeah, I just think, I think Sunday was the biggest, like I said, case of that so far where you look at that and go I don't think Tottenham come back last week to even get a point so to go and get three was I think yeah a big not a turning point but sort of another landmark bring the bingo out again on the journey of their going on this season but like another little dart on the dartboard kind of thing of we've turned another corner here Every time you think that Villa have turned a corner they turn back round again and reverse back to back defeats now for Natalia Arroyo's side Marva and they will have definitely been eyeing up this game to get points from.

22:22So I'm sure she'll be really disappointed. Yeah, and it was one that they could have in the way that the game was going. It was a really sort of, especially in the second half, a very, very open game, which I think once they went to 10 players, it just favoured Spurs in that sense. And I agree. I think Spurs don't win that game a year ago, but they just really stepped it up. Having said that, I actually thought Villa stepped up when they got the red card, really sort of push forward and one of Spurs weaknesses is getting in behind their fullbacks which they did and a brilliant solo goal from Hanson but I just think as it became more and more open and obviously more stretched because they had 10 players it just favoured Spurs completely whereas I think they could have just hung back a lot more they conceded straight after scoring basically so that was just lack of organisation really which was a shame because I I think the way they played, it was a quite even game overall.

23:13That quick succession of goals reminded me of the game they played last season where it was like Rachel Daly scored for Villa and then England scored straight away. It was very, very similar. This time you could just see the difference in quality that Spurs had over them, whereas I think last season those were two very even teams. And you can see the kind of pull-away in quality that Spurs had compared to this Villa side. Bit of disappointing news. I mean, we all saw what happened to Jess Naz, stretched it off in the 71st minute with a knee injury. I think we all thought the inevitable, and it has now been confirmed as an ACL.

23:44I was just looking, actually, that is the eighth ACL of the season. I think the reports last year was over 12 months. There were 10 in the WSL. We're eight already, and we're not at the end of the year. So again, I think we'll look into that in more depth at some point. But that's it for part one of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. In part two, we're going to run through the rest of the WSL games and talk about all things Guardian Top 100.

24:17welcome back to part two of the award-winning guardian women's football weekly we actually have the award from the football supporters association in the building it's in the studio currently and a lovely thing of beauty it is i haven't picked it up yet but i've been well informed it's very heavy we'll take a photo and put that up on socials at some point let's go through the rest of the WSL games from the weekend that we've not discussed yet Manchester United getting back to winning ways a narrow 2-1 victory over West Ham Dominic Janssen's fantastic free kick was what sealed the three points for Mark Skinner's side Susie, an important victory for Manchester United given they lost their last two in the league, it was quite vital for them to kind of get ahead because when we're heading into the end of 2025.

25:06Yeah, and had the loss to Wolfsburg as well. I think that's the thing that's been most interesting about them at this stage of the season is I think you're seeing the toll of those extra Champions League games have an impact on their WSL form in a way that it maybe wouldn't have happened last season the same way. Or if they hadn't had those games this season, I don't think we would have necessarily seen them suffer those two defeats, which they're the only one of the top four to have lost twice so far. so that's the interesting thing for me is how their squad copes with those added games but then also how Mark Skinner copes with that because I mean they've not got the biggest squad in the world but he also doesn't really rotate much so he's kind of having to and you're getting players coming into games that previously haven't necessarily played a huge amount of minutes or kind of built those relationships in on pitch in match like scenarios you know away from the training pitch kind of thing so it's not necessarily been as fluid as it as it has been so yeah it's really important for them to get the win like they've got a massive game coming up against Lyon then they've got Spurs who obviously we said are in great form so they've got two tough games to end the year so anything to West Ham who are struggling big time this season I think that would have really knocked them ahead of those two big games so they needed something yeah yeah we'll talk about West Ham in a second but you know we mentioned already Gareth Taylor talking about the transfer window Rich Mark Skinner all season has been calling for United to be aggressive is the word he's used this time around in the transfer window he's really trying to push the board into action the question is whether he's going to be successful or not I think we need uh the Bill Murray clip don't we in in ground dog day I think I think we've been hearing that from Matt Skinner since pretty much day one in the job with Man United and I think it's frustrating because there's a lot of potential there I mean it's Manchester United it's it's one of the biggest club names in the world and every now and again they make a sign in and you go okay you know they signed obviously Rolfer in the summer and Mallard a few years ago and there's times where you think, okay, they are going to really invest and they're going for the biggest names available.

27:22And then, like Susie said, I think you're starting to see the squad be stretched a little bit. They have looked a little bit tired in recent performances. They got across the line, obviously, on Sunday. But I remember watching them against Man City last month and it was really stark, you know, looking at who United were bringing off the bench. You know, Hannibal and Dell obviously just come back from having a child. And Rachel Williams, you know, and Man City were bringing on. And they've got Carolyn on the bench and Grace Clinton and Ben A, you know, at the weekend coming on against Leicester.

27:53And you're going, that's just a different level. And that's where United need to get to. Listen, we've all had this conversation, haven't we, over the last two, three years with the previous owners and then Ineos about, you know, their investment in the women's team. And I feel for Mark a little bit in that because we hear this from him before every transfer window. It never quite seems to change, but they do. They do need more. But I think the quality of the starting XI is very good. And I think Mark and the coaching staff set them up very well. Their defensive record's always been pretty good, apart from that first half against Man City.