Gotham FC handed the keys to New York City after title win – Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30as a whole. It's also the international break, so we're going to take a look at how the home nations are looking and react to the news that Tanya Oxtoby has left Northern Ireland to become Newcastle United's head coach. All that, plus we'll take your questions and we'll play some bingo, and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. What a panel we have today. Susie Rack, how are you? I am good. Love an evening record. Yes, these are known as the giddy records, usually, aren't they? Usually we record very early on a Tuesday morning. Tonight is Monday night. Anything can happen dot dot dot.

1:04And we have a debutante. Hello to Theo Lloyd-Hughes. How are you? Howdy. Howdy from Texas. I'm very well trying to get my touches in, you know, get a tackle in early and, you know, get those nerves out of the way. Excellent. No nerves needed on this pod. Don't you worry. And as I said, it's giddy Monday. So anything goes. Sophie Downey, how are you? I'm good. Thank you. I'm cold. It's winter. Well, yes, it is winter. I'm afraid that the hats get thicker every time I see you. I hear you. I put on a jumper today. That's about as far as I go. Although I do have a heated gilet because I was in Burnley at the weekend and I very much needed the heated gilet.

1:42And it was my birthday present from my parents. And I have to say one of the best birthday presents they've ever, ever bought me. But it's about to get into cold weather season in New York. But it was very much given a heated treat with Gotham FC players being given the keys to New York in their celebrations. Because with the cup competitions taking centre stage in England this weekend, we're going to focus over the pond and the conclusion of the 2025 NWSL season. Sunday morning, Gotham FC were crowned NWSL champions at the PayPal Park in San Jose. It finished Washington Spirit nil Gotham FC 1 with the only goal of the game coming from USA international Rose Lavelle in the 80th minute.

2:27So this is where I always my brain just kind of goes, this cannot be right. Juan Carlos Amoros's side actually finished eighth in the regular season, but they've become champions for the second time in as many seasons. They scored a 121st minute winner in the quarterfinals and a 97th minute winner in the semifinals. There was the now famous quote from midfielder Jadon Shaw after their win over Kansas City in the quarters. Underdogs my arse is what she said. Theo, tell me, what was the key reason for their success? How did they go about it? Well, I think you can't deny the quality in their squad.

3:04And going back to what you touched on there, eighth in the league table. People say the league table doesn't lie, but over the course of a season, a lot can change. You know, Jadon Shaw didn't arrive until the 11th of September, I believe. So what was that, nearly two months ago? So you bring in, you know, they spent$1.25 million to bring her in. She only plays the last, I want to say, six games of the normal season before the playoffs start. That doesn't necessarily tell you a whole season, right? So they finished 21 points behind, you know, that's a lot of points behind the table champions or the shield winners, as the Americans call it, the Casey Curran.

3:39But to Gotham's credit, you know, first round of playoffs and Jadon Shaw got a goal and assist in that game. They go and beat the current 2-1. So maybe if you can beat, a bit like boxing or something, if you can go and beat the best team in the league, maybe there is something to the American system of sort of winner-takes-all mentality. But I think it's important to know, you know, Rose Lavelle missed half the season with an injury. Esther missed the back end of the season with an injury. They didn't sign Shaw until September. This is a team loaded with quality players. When you could get them all on the pitch at the same time was the question.

4:07And for Juan Carlos Amoros and all those fans in New York watching the parade today outside City Hall, they had them all together in November and that's what counts. Huge, isn't it? And Rose Lavelle scoring the winner as well. Beautiful goal. You know, big time moment for a big time player. Beautiful goal, as you say. And also, bizarrely, her first ever NWSL title, which you can't quite believe. But, you know, she just brings something different, doesn't she, Susie, to Gotham? How did she change the game as well? Oh, she's brilliant. and she's always been brilliant. She's a superb talent. The finish for the goal, as Theo said, it was stunning.

4:43It's the way she reads the roll of the ball to the edge of the box and then just sort of appears from nowhere and just blasts it in first-time finish is just a really beautiful reading of that roll of the ball and that movement that gives her space because no one else is predicting that she's going to move into that area. So it was really nice. Wonderful magician of a player, like one of the best technically skilled US internationals ever I would argue not long returned to action in that she had six months out of an ankle injury towards the start of the season so really significantly important for them and in a game like that where things are pretty tight and creativity is being stifled a bit you need a player like that who can pull something out of the bag and step up in the big moment and the fact that she you know scored the free kick in a game earlier in October to ensure that they got a spot in the playoffs, like speaks to kind of the significance that she can play.

5:40But yeah, I mean, she's just so good. It's nice to see she's had a career that has been really stifled or interrupted by injury. And, you know, you kind of saw her shine at the 2019 World Cup and then it's been a little bit stop start with injury since then. But to see her hit the form she's hitting now, both for Gotham and for the US, is quite exciting. and nice. Yes, nice. I like that. Not so nice for Washington's spirit. Back-to-back finals, back-to-back losses. Where did it go wrong for them on the night, Soph? Yeah, absolutely gutting, isn't it? To lose two in a row is not a good record, but I think it was a lack of creativity.

6:21It was a big problem on the night. I think they had an XG of 0.49, seven shots and zero on target. So that kind of sums it up. I mean, there was that injury as well to how Hirsch felt and they kind of persisted and kept her on the pitch the coach afterwards said I probably should have substituted her because you could see in the build-up to that goal that channel that she was trying to mark and and kind of was hobbling around kind of left the the whole spirit defense kind of disjointed and that so that was a problem they've also been having injury problems they couldn't use Trinity Rodman until the 55th minute she's had a MCL sprain she's also been out with a back sprain as well you need her attacking creativity right to to really get things going and it was kind of that in the night.

7:04Yeah that's not the I mean obviously any kind of injury to Trinity Rodman is going to disrupt things for them but actually across the season Theo they've been disrupted. Jonathan Heraldez leaving mid-season for Lyon, Adrian Gonzalez then taking over. What have they got to do in the off-season to try and go that next step, turn the silver into gold if you like? I love that silver into gold it's a very interesting I mean yeah they're kind of quickly becoming the bridesmaids of sort of American women's football as much as they won't like that term. I think, Faye, they'd love to be talking about turning silver into gold, but I think right now they're trying to turn silver into dollars and to salary cap space because the big story around this team is can they keep Shrinti Rodman and the NWC salary caps at $3.5 million.

7:52You know, Susie, Sophie and yourself could maybe tell me closer to what maybe Arsenal and Chelsea spend on their squad, but people believe it could be double that, maybe more than double that. and so these NWSL teams are getting priced out of top players and the build up to Saturday's final in San Jose you know I was there I can tell you what we spoke about Trinity Rodman's contract as much as we spoke about the game and this is the most recognizable the most high profile potentially the best player on the US roster right now and as Soph you know very well put she's really struggled to get on the pitch but you know she is a big deal to this team and I think before they can even start about building and winning a trophy in next season everyone is talking about can they keep Trinity Robman?

8:30And, you know, it just seems like it's up in the air. We're hearing a lot of, you know, agent speak, a lot of transfer gossip, some really good stuff reported at The Athletic, actually about a local club in the USL Super League, which for English listeners is sort of like Division 2, officially not Division 2, but for someone to understand, it's sort of like a Division 2 club in Washington, DC, has basically said, we'll double, quadruple her salary, allegedly, to bring her to this Division 2 club. So it's all getting quite silly, but I think if the NWSL changes the cap rules, keep Robman, Michelle Kang, the owner, obviously owns London City Lionesses, not afraid to spend money.

9:01So maybe, you know, silver into gold, maybe it's just about spending money. Well, yeah, that feels like that's across the board nowadays, isn't it? Spend money and get success. I'm not quite sure how that then affects, well, I am sure how that affects the rest of the pyramid. It affects it negatively, without a doubt. However, we do need more investment in the game. Let's look at it from an English perspective, Susie. We've spoken a lot about the US internationals, but what about the England internationals? because Jess Carter and Esme Morgan both featured in the final. How do you think that they've both developed their game since they've been in the States?

9:36I think they've both come along hugely. I think it's reinvigorated both their careers massively. Obviously, Morgan not getting a lot of game time at City. Carter sort of drifting to the edges of Chelsea in a sort of final kind of months there. And I think it is a bit of a testament to both that they had the ambition to go and try and develop and sort of stay at the top level and not kind of be complacent Morgan could have stayed on the sat on the bench at City for the foreseeable but you know if you want to get in the England squad you've got to kind of be ambitious and Carter could have wound down and like thought when I'm coming to the end you know let's go and play lower league teams in the WSL and most would have had her so like I think it shows ambition and like a desire to still kind of fight for their careers and their international careers as well and then obviously there's benefits for england too having players play in the states you know the fact that both of them were mid-season when they come to the euros like there's huge benefits to that they're match ready so they're not players you have to necessarily get ready so i doubt they'll necessarily be in the same place by the time it gets around to the world cup or whatever but there's advantages there for english players playing in the states and they've settled in well like both of them Yeah, really loved seeing their celebrations joining in as well overnight.

10:53Temma Chuinga, let's talk about her because named most valuable player, MVP. By the way, I feel like we need to bring that over here. Like player of the match just doesn't quite sound as cool as MVP, in my opinion. But it's the second season in a row she's been MVP. She finished the league as top scorer as well. It's really interesting because she's Malawian, isn't she, Soph? Is that right? Yeah, she is. So when you have such an incredible player, but playing for such a small country, she doesn't kind of get the same international recognition. I think that perhaps a player for, you know, one of the more successful countries does.

11:28Do you think that's fair? I think it's always hard, especially when you're looking at like award season and especially in a year like this year where you have many international competitions. And, you know, the ones who come out on top are generally those who do well for their country. but she's ridiculously good. I think she has it all as a forward wide player. You know, she can run, obviously. She's got the pace to burn but then she's got that real intuition of when to make those runs. She's really good defensively as well, I think, for a forward and then she's that poacher in the box and her stats just say all right.

11:59She's the top goal scorer with 15 goals this season. She became the fastest NWSL player to reach 30 regular season goals so she's just knocking off those records every time they come and she was a real key player. I think they missed her when she was injured in that playoff round. They really, really missed her presence and you could tell that they really needed her on the pitch and not sitting in the sidelines. Whoever won on Sunday would have been considered a surprise ahead of the start of the playoffs, to be honest. Kansas City current with the out-and-out regular season champions. They won the league by 21 points, as Theo mentioned earlier on.

12:37What kind of set them apart across the campaign, Theo? And is there concern about how big that gap was and then how they didn't convert that into getting into the final? Well, I think we've already touched on. Injuries play a huge part. You lose 15 goals out of your team for that game against Gotham when Gotham's welcoming back Esther and Lavelle and Jadon Shaw obviously coming in on the transfer. I think that played a real part. They also beat Zanarato, who actually did play that playoff game. Vlatko Andonovsky, the former US coach, who now was taking the current this season, he's actually just stepped down to become a sporting director rather than the kind of head coach manager.

13:11He said that she was playing on an MCL strain in that game, although you wouldn't notice it the way she plays. She's a fantastic player. She scored at Wembley, obviously, recently. So, again, English listeners will be used to her. But I think, yeah, the KC just weren't at full capacity, full fitness. And I think credit to Gotham as well for taking away what they offered. Obviously, you don't have to mark Chawinga, but they've got very good players. Ali St-Noise, a US Women's National Team player, kind of coming in to replace it. Nichelle Prince, Canadian gold medalist, has been in this league for a long time.

13:39He's a very good player. I think they were kind of presented with the two best chances Casey had on that day. And it's those moments under pressure when the game kind of slows down when you're one-on-one in the box. And Nichelle Prince and Ali Setnault couldn't take those kind of two best chances of the day that you thought, oof, that was Chawinga, maybe things are different. So credit to Gotham, because in that game, I think Gotham really cancelled them out. I think Jalen Howe, we haven't really mentioned her name yet, the centre-back who's actually just been called back into the USA team for this upcoming window.

14:07She is really Gotham's underrated star player as the holding midfielder, the disruptor. She actually broke an opt-of-record, 15 duels she won in the final on Saturday, first ever player to do that in an NWSL final game. So I think, yeah, she's really one to watch in Gotham. You know, Juan Carlos Amoros may be Spanish, but he sort of has this way of figuring out whatever the other team does best and taking that off the table. and I think that's what KC weren't able to do in the best game. And also KC, you know, so I've mentioned it, Chwinga is an amazing presser of the ball and this KC team was so organised defensively.

14:42They really moved, the way their lines move is amazing to watch. Very, very well coached. And when the other team give you the ball and say come and beat us without your best players, I think that sometimes stifles team. So Gotham, again, did very well to not kind of show their hand and it was a tough tactical battle for KC to figure out. Yeah, it's interesting because WSL fans will probably remember Juan Carlos Amoros because he was joint head coach. Quite a rare thing, actually, with Karen Hills at Tottenham Hotspur. And he's really come into his own since he's gone over to the States. Let's focus on the other end of the table.

15:18Chicago Stars finished bottom, tied on points with Bay FC, who had the better goal difference in the end. They both had kind of fairly positive 2024 campaigns, Susie. So where did it go wrong this year? Yeah I mean I think there's a number of factors obviously Chicago Stars lost Mal Swanson to pregnancy which is obviously a wonderful thing but not ideal when you're trying to compete in a league they fired the manager six games in because the results are so bad lost five of those so there was a lot of change there at the other end you had Bay FC who were investigated in March for coaching staff reports locally of it being a toxic environment and things like that so like They've had struggles that have impacted across the course of the season for both.

16:03There are signs of hope, I suppose, looking forward a little bit, you know, in the fact that Chicago have got Martin Shogren coming in from Hammerby in January and Hammerby have been a really exciting team to watch. So, you know, there's promise there. Bay FC, meanwhile, obviously they've got Kay Cossington in charge of Bay Collective, like such a critical component for England. Anya from the England set up as well. really fantastic woman from atletico madrid i think she was at who has also come into their team they're like leadership team together and they are leading the recruitment of a new manager and are big advocates for progressive way of doing things and a player-led environment focused like approach to building teams and clubs so like i think there is good signs there too so i don't think it's you know kind of complete disaster they've got the benefit of the of the of the American system in that there is no relegation so there's not that threat so you do have the opportunity to turn things around and stuff in in a different way and sort of you know start from a blank slate come a new season.

17:10What about the other playoff teams Soph? Portland Thorns, Orlando Pride, Seattle Reign, San Diego Wave, Rassing Louisville whose season kind of impressed you the most? Well that's a big question so I'm not going to go through all of them but I I think maybe from a more personal perspective, the one I was keeping an eye on was San Diego Wave because obviously you're on a side of L coming in and I really thought his style of football would kind of suit the NWSL and it proved to be. I mean, I guess they started the season pretty well. They went on like a five or six match on beaten streak around the April-May time, which really set them off of that playoff place and they have a real diversity, I guess, in terms of attackers and goal scorers.

17:51I think they had something like 13 different goal scorers throughout the league. So there are positive signs there and to reach a playoff was really good for them. I watched the one against Portland, really tight game. There's lots to build on for them. The other one that caught my eye, maybe this is more biased because it's more of an English, but Laura Harvey at Seattle Reign, they finished 13th in 2024 and they got into the playoff positions this year. They finished fifth, I think, this season, a marked improvement. I was going to ask Theo though, how the whole chat GPT thing went down in the NWSL because just for the listeners, Laura Harvey admitted in an article that she had used ChatGPT to do her tactics to prepare for the opposition.

18:32And I don't think it went down too well over here. So I was wondering what it was like over there. Yeah, I mean, look, so whenever I get a text from an English person, you know, the time difference, I wake up about eight in the morning and I've got a bunch of messages and they're from English people talking about the NWSL. I know it's either really good news or really bad news. and the amount of people that reached out to me to be like what's going on here who's Laura Harvey what like what's going on like I mean people don't even watch women's football right and again I think when that story crosses over you know again it's either a really good story or it's kind of a bad story so I think it was a bit embarrassing as someone you know working in in journalism that doesn't like AI or finds that AI is a bit scary but when you take a step back and you do listen to the podcast and the whole podcast I think what she did and said isn't as bad as it sounds she sort of basically said she asked ai and it suggested playing a back five and then she sort of said like i did this funny thing to her staff and then they decided to try it it's sort of like it's not like she was just letting ai pick the side but i think everyone and like myself included a bit scared of ai and think it's a bit nonsensy it does sound really bad to have people and for managers obviously make that decision it has at least in the eyes of the fans and sort of the online which isn't everyone it's really created a bit of a schism and actually uh assistant coach Scott Parkinson is really beloved by the club and by a lot of fans across the league.

19:52He's been the end of himself for a long time, English guy. He actually went on social media and wrote a very, very long post about people being way too harsh on her for her comments. And I do think he has something to say about something kind of being taken out of perspective, even if in its core, you're sort of like, oh, we don't really want to see this. I think, you know, Laura is a very successful coach, one of the best coaches in End of Israel's history and what people have kind of said about her because of a couple of kind of jokey comments. I think it has gone a bit too far, but she's actually out of contract this off season.

20:20So might be an interesting one to watch. Although she's been in Seattle so long, you know, 10 years with a break in the middle. I don't necessarily see her going anywhere. Has anybody heard, I'm sorry to bring this name up on this pod, to be honest, but I watched Have I Got News For You the other day and I've never heard anybody else say chat GPT as weirdly as Boris Johnson or AI. AI, chat GPT. That's news to me. It's been a long time since I've watched Have I Got News For You, but I got to get my VPN. Watch that clip. Fire up the VPN. watch the clip. I'm sure it will be somewhere on the internet.

20:50It was quite something. Listen, before we let you go, Theo, obviously we've got a couple of new expansion teams in 2026, Denver Summit FC and Boston Legacy FC. But I kind of want a bigger question for you really, Theo, in terms of what you're hoping to see happen over the next few months to make the NWSL an even better product in 2026. Tell everyone who's not a massive fan of the NWSL yet why they should be watching. I think, and I say this as a huge WSL fan, I think it is the best league in the world, top to bottom. I think it's pretty indisputable. 10, 11 teams in this league are very good and I think could easily finish fourth or fifth, sixth in the WSL.

21:36Is there a team that could maybe go and win the Champions League. I don't know. We'll know a little bit more in February when there's that FIFA Champions Cup weird thing in Wembley where Arsenal and Corinthians and Gotham and the African Champions League winner are all going to get together. But I don't think this is necessarily a league for falling in love with sort of one mega team like you might do in traditionally in European football or South American football. But I think when you're trying to catch a game, that's going to give you surprises, entertainment, really exciting players, a really global mix of players as well.

22:07I think that's really underrated. The league obviously has a lot of Americans, the American NCAA college system. The national team has a huge reputation. But I actually think the best thing about the NWC right now, to anyone who wants to go check it out, is the amazing mix of players. 49 different national teams were represented in the NWC this year. I think some of the most entertaining footballers here in the NWC, not necessarily the best teams. If you kind of, you see the distinguish that I'm making. And obviously, you know, every league has a bit of personality. I think Liga Emek is femenil if you ever go watch that listener you know I think the Mexican league is phenomenal Canadian league is really coming up there's a lot of great leagues out there and they all offer something different and I think for the NWSL it's about having teams that can go tete-a-tete and kind of really knock into each other and have crazy games that's basically what the league is built on and it's very exciting We love a crazy game and we've loved your debut as well Theo I hope you'll come back on soon Oh absolutely thanks so much for being here and I hope you all either watched on replay or stayed up till three in the morning watching the final whichever one it was uh replay i'm afraid replay i need my sleep when faye kept saying sunday morning i was like wasn't sunday morning well i was but um yeah no i'm glad you all watched it and it's yeah a good cup final emma hayes was there and she was saying before the game it sort of felt like a bit like an fa cup final and she's right the cup final feel where everything is on the line for a big game is is why we all watch the game and those emotions those scenes that's why we watch the game and that glitz and glamour the nwcl does deliver and the keys to new york city Who could ask for more?

23:35That's wonderful. Theo, take care. We'll see you soon. Yeah, thanks so much. All the best. That's it for part one of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. In part two, we'll take a quick look ahead to the international break.

23:54Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. So international football returns this weekend. The Lionesses are hosting two final friendlies of the year. They're going to meet Chyna at Wembley on Saturday before facing Ghana in Southampton. Serena Viegman announced her squad last week. We did mention this. Freya Godfrey received her first call up. Anouk Denton also returns. More graduates from the under-23s, Susie, which is what we've predicted. How good is that? Yeah, it's brilliant. I mean, it shows how good the setting up of that under-23s team has been at building this pathway between the youth teams and the national team.

24:34It's a real, like, step up into it. And I think, like, a lot of those players have spoken about how good it is at preparing for that environment because they try. It's hugely important at cultivating that crop of players and readying them for the senior side. And, I mean, Fred Godfrey had a wonderful season so far. her two goals against Tottenham in their 40 win over London City, I think were really a testament to the way she's performed so far this season. She's always been a talent and it's nice to sort of see her doing so well. And she deserves it. She really, really deserves that call up. This is the time to be experimenting, as I keep saying, with the starting 11 because there's no pressure.

25:15Plus, like, it's OK to lose sometimes. I think it helps sometimes in progression. Good and bad injury news, which, you know, we always kind of expect. Lauren Hemp, Jess Park, Grace Clinton all back. We know Michelle Adjumang is out for what will be a long time with that ACL injury she picked up. Alex Greenwood's out, Hannah Hampton, Leah Williamson as well. Jess Carter's been given time to rest after winning the NWSL Championship and Lauren James is going to continue her recovery at Chelsea, which all seems very sensible when you think about it, Soph. Absolutely. It's that time of year and, you know, you're not really playing for anything until April, March, April, for the World Cup qualifiers.

25:54So you've got time to let these players rest. And Jess Carter has had a phenomenal year in terms of what she's done, but she's played an awful lot of football. She played a lot of football during the Euros. She didn't stay for the celebrations in Trafalgar Square. She flew straight back to Gotham to play in their next game and then has pretty much been with them since then to their run to the finals and the trophy. And she will have to be back with them as well for the Champions Cup that starts at the end of January. I think you really have to credit Wiegmann. A lot of coaches wouldn't do that.

26:21And I think sometimes Serena gets criticism herself for not, you know, changing around players. I think it's a bit of a myth myself. I think the amount of young players that have come through the 23s in recent years and been given an opportunity and the amount that have actually stayed in the seniors rather than flip-flopping between the two is testament to the fact that she is willing to give youth a chance. One of the standout players in the last camp was Lucia Kendall against Australia. She was player of the match. So these players are getting their opportunities and that's what you need. As Susie said, that's what you need these windows for.