Jess Fishlock is a Welsh legend and is the women’s game for sale? – Women’s Football Weekly podcast

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30credited with growing the game have also announced their retirements. We'll look at the legacies they leave behind. The Lionesses are back in action this week in their homecoming series, but where will Serena Wiegmann play Mayor Letizia? And this week we have a football finance special where we'll be joined by expert Kieran Maguire and asking him how and why so many clubs are selling off their women's sides. We'll discuss all that, plus we'll take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly. what a panel we have today it's like a superstar panel all the s's suzy rack how are you i am good how are you i'm very well thank you i do actually get to see you in person tomorrow which is very exciting we'll talk talk more about that later sophie downey you've had a right day of it are you able to tell us what you've been up to i uh i've been running all around london walking dogs with managers doing different things.

1:24Yeah, all very exciting. But I mean, I got in the house about eight o 'clock in the evening. So it's been a bit hectic. This is one of those manic Monday pods that we do in the evening that could go anywhere. See, I can't even speak right at the top of it. We do have another guest with us. It is a football finance expert and actually my lecturer at the University of Liverpool Management School, the superstar that is Kieran Maguire, and we'll be speaking to him in part two about some very pertinent and interesting football finance questions that we all have. But we're going to kick off because the first international break following the Euros is on the horizon and we've seen a series of high profile retirements as a result.

2:11So on Wednesday, Welsh legend Jess Fishlock announced that she's going to be retiring from international football after their friendly against Australia on Saturday. At 38, she's Wales' all-time record appearance holder, all-time top goal scorer, and was, of course, a core part of the squad that made history at the European Championship this summer, scoring their first ever goal in a major tournament. This is what she had to say. From kicking my first ball with my brothers in Hlandromny. I don't know if I've pronounced that right, Jess. I'm so sorry if I have not. Football has been in my blood.

2:43When I had my debut against Switzerland in Clotin in 2006, Never did I imagine I'd have the honour of representing my Khumru more than 150 times. Every minute was a pleasure, a privilege and an honour. The Euros was the pinnacle of my football career. Seeing the dragon on the world stage for the first time will be a memory that will stay with me for a lifetime. I mean, what a career, Susie. We've spoken about her a lot on the pod previously. Such a legacy, not just on the pitch, but off it as well. How do you even briefly sum up her career and how on earth does Rianne Wilkinson start to build without her?

3:19Two impossible tasks. I mean, sum up her career, just phenomenal. I mean, I don't think anyone was like anything but overjoyed to see Jess Fishlock feature a major tournament for Wales after the kind of career she's had and the legacy she leaves for the national team in particular, but also like just the way she's represented Welsh women's football generally. There was just her scoring that goal, their first goal at a major tournament as well, the oldest player to score in a tournament or in the Euros. Just like such a fitting end to an incredibly stellar career. like you say off the pitch such a brilliant advocate for the women's game for equality for you name it but like I think one of the things that I think is most beautiful is her just passion for Wales and her passion for Welsh women's football and I think that's measurable I think the impact that she's had on the domestic and international game in Wales is just huge I can't imagine Wales without her and it's an impossible task replacing her you can't replace So essentially you need like five players to step up and fill the shoes that she is stepping out of because she's that influential.

4:40And yeah, it's emotional to see her go and also makes you feel old. Yeah, most importantly, makes us feel old without a doubt. Also making us feel a little bit old. USA International Kristen Press announcing her retirement from football, not just international football. Two-time World Cup winner, 36 years old, 16-year career at the very top of the sport. And earlier on this month, her Angel City teammate Ali Riley also announced that she was going to bow out at the end of this NWSL season after a glittering career. She was New Zealand captain, you'll remember, in the World Cup. Centurion returned to football for the first time in 463 days this weekend after battling a chronic nerve injury in her leg.

5:29And they're not the only ones. The Netherlands' Sharida Spitzer as well, hanging up her international boots at the end of this window. She's 35, 247 appearances for her country. Currently the most capped European player as well. played a crucial role in the Netherlands' historic Euro 2017 win, captained the side to the 2019 World Cup final as well. A week of goodbyes to some legends, Soph. Loads of these players given so much to the game, again, like Jess Fishlock off the pitch as well as on it. How much are they going to be missed? Hugely. I think Susie stole my line there because I was like, it makes me feel very old.

6:08I've watched these players since I was young and pretty much all the way through their career. so you go through these cycles in football that make you feel a bit sad when it's all over because you've had a number this week you can add to that like maybe lower profile but Megan Campbell of Republic of Ireland has also hung up her boots you know these players have given so much to their different countries over the years and and to the game of football and I think in the in say the example of Kristen Press as well the stuff that she's done outside of football in terms of trying to increase the equity and pushing women's sport forward massively not just in terms of what she's done on the pitch but in terms of what she's doing with like Tobin Heath with her podcast off the pitch and stuff like that bringing awareness to issues that we didn't know about before and I think that's super important I'm also a bit sad that Kristen Press and Ali Riley as well you feel that they maybe had a couple of years extra in them it's been injuries for them that has really kind of stopped their chances they've both been out for a very long time and I think And that's the sad side of it when you don't really always get to choose your goodbye.

7:11You would like that in football. I know it doesn't happen in football very much. But when you think about, say, Millie Bright's international retirement, she got to choose her goodbye. So I just wish for two legends again, being able to do that. But unfortunately not, that is football and they leave a legacy in their wake. Yeah, sometimes I feel though, if you've got a little bit of unfinished business because you've had your career cut short because of injury, that actually that spurs you on a little bit to maybe go into coaching as opposed to going, do you know what, I'm absolutely shattered.

7:43I need to just, you know, stop. You know, maybe they've got a bit of momentum to try and spin a positive that they're not going to completely leave the women's game, hopefully. I just had a wonderful chat with Nathalie Arroyo, the Aston Villa manager for an article that will be out in a couple of weeks time before the you know just ahead of the WSL season restarting um after the international break and she retired at 22 due to injury and look at her now she was a journalist now she's a manager sneak preview of my wonderful wonderful interview with her she's brilliant person to chat to that is a thing I think where people think they've got unfinished business in in kind of being on the pitch and part of that side of the game for sure.

8:24Yeah, I see it without a doubt. I'm looking forward to reading that. Right, the Lionesses are back. So England returned to the pitch this fortnight. Two friendlies against Brazil and Australia as part of their homecoming series. It is the first time since winning the Euros back in July that we're going to see them in action, Susie. What are you expecting and hoping from the two games in terms of, I can't believe I'm saying this, I've got a 2026 World Cup to deal with first. I can't quite cope with looking ahead to Brazil in 2027. but how is the prep going to start? What did you make of the squad announcement that we teased last week?

9:00Yeah, I feel very relaxed about the whole thing because it's friendlies, right? We've been craving a bit of a break from constant competitive matches to actually see what players can do, experiment. Like, I want to see variation. Like, I don't think that will happen all the time, not necessarily against Brazil and Australia maybe, be but in the other two fixtures in this what they called it homecoming series yeah like I think we may well see a fair bit of experimentation there's so much to think about in terms of kind of who is playing fullback positions and what the future of those roles look look like because we are like in those areas and I'm excited to see sort of what kind of solutions they're developing I also think it's really interesting because we're going into this without Arjan as part of the coaching setup without Anya as the general manager.

9:51This is a new look coaching team around the squad. Serena's working with different people. So I'm curious to see where their influence filters in and what that looks like. We know that Arjan was a real tactical mastermind. Who is bringing that to the party now? I'm just so relaxed about this next couple of months of England's games. And I think it's an opportunity to really enjoy it. That's a really nice way of looking at it. Don't get complacent, though. That's what the players would be told. But so what, right? Like, it's just friendlies. Like, it doesn't matter. As long as they're all fine for the World Cup qualifiers, we're good.

10:29Oh, you know what it's like, though. Especially, you know, when we played Australia before and, you know, the finalistema was great fun. New faces in the squad, though, Soph. And I know you love to see new faces. And we thought that there might be. Taylor Hines and Lucia Kendall both receiving their first senior call-ups. Laura Blinkhilda-Brown and Missy Boquens returning. Katie Reid was initially called up. Sad for her, had to withdraw. So Grace Fisk has come in as her replacement and Grace Clinton has since had to pull out with injury as well. How do you see it all playing out? Good chance for a fresh start and for these players to really get an opportunity to shine at this level.

11:08Because I think, you know, Katie Reid, for example, I'm really devastated for her in terms of she's had a really, really good start to the season. She's been a standout for Arsenal in that back line. And she was just kind of primed for this opportunity right now. And they will definitely come again, don't get me wrong. She will have her opportunities down the line. But it's just sad that it was cut short by that injury. I think I'm so excited to see Lucia Kendall. I think she's a brilliant young talent. People don't know much about her, I think, because she played at Southampton for so long. So she hasn't been at front and centre of people's eyes.

11:44But now that she's at Villa, she's starting to get the game time at the top level, get the visibility. So I think that's key. And Serena, I think she has a real opportunity here. The pressure is off, no matter what people say. I know people want England to win football games, but the pressure in these next four months is definitely off. And she comes into this with a double European trophy on her back. She has that kind of kudos to stick with her and kind of support her through whatever happens next. England traditionally aren't very good in friendlies. They never have been. We have to remember that too.

12:22It's not really where they shine. It's in tournaments that they shine. So we have to kind of take this with what it is and a real experimentation time, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So nobody immediately saying sack Serena Wigman after the fortnight. as if that would happen. So much focus on Mare Letitia this week, actually, after another standout start to the season. And Wiedman was asked about her defender on BBC Radio 5 Live and this is what she had to say about it. Of course, we see every single game at Manchester United. It's incredible how consistent she is. Also in availability. I still see her as a right back for us, but I know she can play as a centre back too.

13:03So do the rest of us, Serena. Because, of course, it kicked off an ongoing discussion about Letizia's role in the England team, with even the Manchester United social media team weighing in, which, by the way, I do not agree with. They posted, Mayor Letizia has started 104 games for United, 103 of them have been at centre-back. I mean, I've already put out what my stance is there. Susie, what did you make of it? Well, I thought that was particularly distasteful. I don't think it's OK for a club admin to be taking a pop at the England manager who's just won back-to-back European tournaments. I mean, who are you, right?

13:38Like, I'm not being funny, but that's just not OK. And like odd behaviour. I don't mind a bit of banter from fans. Like, I think that's fine. But like, come on, official club admin. Do better. I just think the whole discussion is a bit weird because like, I mean, maybe Serena didn't word it in the best way. She's Dutch, doesn't always word things perfectly. But like they view her as a right back because they are short in that area. right and she has played that area through the youth levels for England and at clubs previously they know she can play there they know she can play there well she is probably one of the best centre-back options they have available but they have far more centre-back options available than they do right-back options so the idea that you wouldn't sort of experiment with that particularly I would say in this time frame is a really good time to do it if they decide to go that route then why not right like if I'm Mayor Letizia I'm looking at thinking how likely am I to get in ahead of Leah Williamson and Alex Greenwood when they're fully fit or a number of the ones behind that who could slot into that role who she is probably better at but potentially you know not as significant a role as the one she'd play at right back when they probably are so short of options for Lucy Bronze when she's not there so I just I'm really again I'm I'm so relaxed about experimentation I don't get the hystericalness like now is the time to try things if it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't like I'm just I'm not particularly bothered like we should be able to fail failure helps us learn um and that's in like every area of like society the world life and I'm just I'm feeling philosophical let's say about all of this and I found I found the like hysteria over this the hysteria over the squad generally just all a little bit absurd right I've got two things to say firstly Catherine Tate I'm a bothered I'm a bothered though secondly you know earlier on we were talking off mic about speeding up the pod to 1.5 I felt like that rant you sped yourself up to 1.5 you were so adamant on it I loved it it was brilliant just finally so Brazil first of all I mentioned the finalist we were all there it was it was fun I think it's fair to say.

15:56First time the two have met since then. That was in 2023. Where on earth does the time go? It's terrifying. What are you expecting from the two sides in this one? I'm hoping for fun once again. I think two very, very quality sides, high quality sides. Obviously, Brazil coming into this on the back of the Copa America win their ninth title, which is huge for them. And they've got a really, really good squad, lots of quality. And I'm excited to be able to see them match up. I think that's the other point about these friendlies, right? They're playing four different opposition from all over the world.

16:30And that's really, really valuable because normally we only get to play European opposition. When you think about what you're preparing for a World Cup and how surprised people were at the 2023 World Cup by teams that they'd never played before, by teams from Africa, Asia, you know, across the continent they'd never come up against and the different styles of football that they play. This is only going to serve as perfect preparation so brazil is the perfect start for that it's also they're going to meet in the phenylistamine next year if i'm not wrong um as well so this is kind of a prelude to that a bit strange maybe but um yeah it's going to be exciting i think and you know england brazil is always worth watching i just want a trophy every time they meet that would be more fun wouldn't it why can't we do that can we just have trophies all around i like a trophy they're fun let's get a Trophy every pod.

17:16Right, I'm going to create some. Maybe we should start giving out pod trophies. Let's do that. Well, do you know what? I've got quite a lot of pod emails to go through at the end of the pod. So maybe we will start having that. It feels very old school radio. Let's do a listener of the week. Semi-finals of the Nations League also kick off this week. Germany and France will meet for the first time since the Euros quarterfinal. Spain hosts Sweden. Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland are also involved in promotion and relegation playoffs against Iceland and Belgium, respectively. Should they win over the two legs, they're going to gain League A status for the upcoming World Cup qualifiers, which will be very interesting.

17:55Right, that's it for part one. In part two, we'll chat to Kieran Maguire to learn a little bit more about why clubs are selling off their women's sides to themselves.

18:15Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. Now, you probably will have seen in the news over the last year, the current trend of clubs selling their women's team to their parent companies. You'll remember the first instance came earlier this year when Chelsea announced the£198.7 million sale of Chelsea women to their parent company, Blue Co. Aston Villa and Everton since followed suit. It's all a little bit confusing for those of us without a football finance brain and we wanted to find out a bit more about these deals, what they mean, how they're happening. So why not invite onto the pod only the world's best football finance expert in my opinion, also a friend of mine and my lecturer at university.

19:06So not biased at all Kieran you're actually not very good at this at all we just wanted to kind of throw random questions at you and see how you got on. Kieran McGuire is though the go-to expert for all things football finance the author of The Price of Football and the wonderful podcast as well. If you ever fancy straying from the Guardian Women's Football Weekly and listening to The Price of Football please do it's wonderful. Kieran how are you? I'm very good I'm just back from Tranmere and not many people can say that late on a Monday evening. No most definitely I think We've been passing ships because I was in Liverpool earlier on today at university.

19:43What is going through with all these deals? Explain them a little bit more to us, because what does a club selling its women's team to their parent company actually mean? Because as women's football fans, we immediately jump on it thinking, well, you don't take it seriously straight away. But what's the actual reason? I think it is very disrespectful to the women's game the way that certain football clubs are treating women's teams as financial instruments rather than football clubs in their own right. but there are financial cost controls that operate within the men's game. And those are currently referred to as profitability and sustainability rules.

20:32And the reason for this is that they encourage neither profitability nor sustainability-based decisions as far as the men's game is concerned. But historically, what has happened is that the women's team set up as a different legal entity as a company has been owned by the men's team. Now, what Chelsea realised a few months ago was that, A, that they were in significant danger of failing the cost control rules, and that meant that Chelsea's men's team would have suffered quite a significant points deduction. So they decided to transfer the ownership of the women's team away from Chelsea FC PLC, which is the men's team, which goes into the PSR calculations, into this company called Blueco, which just so happened to also own Chelsea Football Club.

21:29As a result of that, the sale price was£200 million. And as you pointed out of that£200 million,£198.7 of that was profit because Chelsea had only valued the club initially at£1.3 million. That meant that Chelsea effectively got a free pass as far as their men's team's PSR rules were concerned. The executives of the Premier League clubs then had an opportunity to stop that particular loophole. And they voted against that because they thought, oh, this is actually quite a good get out of jail free card. And what we've seen since then is that Aston Villa have sold their women's team, I believe for around about£55 million.

22:20And it looks like Everton have done the same, I think probably in the region of£45 to£50 million. And because the clubs didn't cost a lot to set up, the women's clubs, it means that if you sell it for 50, you've not spent a lot of money setting it up. So therefore, you end up with these huge profits. You're not allowed to do that under UEFA rules, which means that Chelsea and Aston Villa's men's team, both of whom are competing in the UEFA Champions League and Europa League, respectively, have been subject to sanctions from UEFA. but they haven't had a points deduction. They would have had significant points deductions had the Premier League had the same set of rules.

23:03I mean, it's a weird method of financial manipulation, but what are the pros and cons to this? Are there some pros? I can only see pretty short-term ones. Yes, it's digging. The pro is that from the men's team's perspective, it digs them out of a hole. It means that they avoid a points deduction. It means that they can still spend as much money as they want in the transfer market without having the normal issues that surround a club, which is in some form of financial constraint, which is restricting investment. So it's very much driven for the convenience of the men's team. As far as the women's team themselves are concerned, it has no impact upon them whatsoever because the cost controls that operate within the WSL are a wage cap which is limited to the amount of revenue the women's teams generate.

24:02It just seems very, very strange. When Chelsea's men's team was sold effectively by the government to Todd Bowley and Clear Lake Capital, it worked out as for every£1 worth of revenue that Chelsea generate, the new owners paid£5. When we saw the same with Manchester United and Jim Ratcliffe making his investment in Manchester United, it was£7 of price paid for every£1 the club was generating. We take a look at Chelsea's women's team. It's around about 20. And as somebody that works valuing businesses, that's a huge outlier. I sometimes get involved with advising investors on trying to buy football clubs, to which my normal piece of advice is don't do it.

24:53But when we've agreed that they've got more money than cents, we normally work out some sort of relationship. This is the amount of money the club's generating. I don't think you should pay more than normally, so three, five, seven pounds for every one pound of revenue. So the Chelsea position is around about 20. I suspect the same is true when we take a look at the figures for Villa and Everton. So you wouldn't, even if you're valuing some of the crazy companies that we see on sort of AI and tech, and so their value look far lower than this. I think the one possible positive we can take from this is that if it was a genuine investment, you would say, well, that must mean that the new owners are very confident that these football clubs, these women's clubs are going to generate a lot more revenue in future years.

25:49And of course, we all want that. But we've not seen that same level of growth. I've got a spreadsheet in front of me as well as talking to you folks. And the revenue growth in the WSL last season was fantastic. Manchester United was up by a third. Liverpool up by a third. Arsenal nearly 40%. Bristol City up 58%. Spurs up 50%. So there is certainly a lot of growth at present. But I think that growth was largely driven by the new TV deal. And when you go into the second year of a TV deal, it's likely to slow down. I just want to go back to valuations because I remember talking to you about this before and it's always been very difficult to value a women's team when they're amalgamated into the men's structure.

26:41And I'm looking at the NWSL at the moment as an example. Lots of their clubs have caught the headlines. Angel City, when it was sold, for example, for$250 million, is a perfect one. but they exist in a different ecosystem don't they i don't quite understand how you're able to are they just plucking figures out of the sky to to fit the model that they're trying to squeeze into how does it work yeah i think the nwo said it's slightly different because you tend to get bigger crowds and the clubs are independent entities yeah they have been set up as women's who are able to do their own rights to do their own sponsorship deals and they are they are generating far more interest as separate entities.

27:29I think it is a challenge working out the numbers. Chelsea, however, would say that they have sold subsequent to their own deal. They've sold 10 % of the club to an American investor for 20 million. So they've sold 10 % for 20 million, it justifies the 200 million. There's no doubting that Chelsea's women's football team is absolutely brilliant football team but Newcastle's men's team was sold for 300 million pounds for it's in the Premier League it's got the benefit of the Premier League TV deal it's getting 50 ,000 people turning up each week if Newcastle men's team is worth 300 million it seems a bit strange that Chelsea's women's team is worth two-thirds of that valuing a football team is a bit like valuing a piece of art because they are all unique and they've all got unique assets set so you know how do I value something by Tracy Emin or Banksy or Damien Hirst?

28:25It ultimately comes down in the eye of the beholder and the willingness of a prospective investor to put the money in. I was going to say, who's willing to pay what? But if you're buying it yourself, then how much doesn't really make sense. Sorry, Susie. So I was going to ask about the long-time finances of some of the men's teams because this is a short-term fix, right? They can do it once and then it's done. Is it worth it? Is it worth that split away and the disrespect that they're showing to their women's team for something they can only do once that then next year they're essentially going to have the same problem, right?

29:04Yes, you're absolutely right. Short-term self-interest is what drives football decision makers. And we know that it's an industry whereby if you lose three games in eight days, it's a crisis which can cost a manager a job. So that applies to boardroom decisions as well. And what we've also seen from Chelsea is that they sold two car parks to themselves and made£70 million. They sold a hotel to themselves. And you're absolutely right, Sid. Eventually, we will run out of things to sell, but we've not run out just yet. It's a lot of loopholes. I found it really interesting and I won't say who, but I've spoken to an owner of a football club recently who has talked about potentially separating out the women's team.

29:58The argument is that actually they're saying it's a sign of commitment to the women's team because it would make them more financially independent. I mean, do you agree with that? Or is that, you know, some interesting comms tweaking going on? Just because you make them independent as a legal entity, it doesn't mean that they're independent as a functioning organisation. So I don't really hold a lot of hope in that. It seems strange. Chelsea lose 150 grand a week, the women's team. So why pay 200 million pounds for a company which is losing£150 ,000 a week. I can't see any business sense in that decision.

30:42Since, you know, when we talk about Chelsea, since separating from the men's financial structure, we've seen them sign like separate brand and sponsorship deals for the women's team. And then we already mentioned that Alexis Ohanian bought a stake in the club. Could they have happened regardless of whether this financial separation had happened? Would they be able to have done those kind of deals with the club combined. Absolutely, because all that's happened is that the ownership of Chelsea Women Limited has transferred from one party and Chelsea Women Limited could still have sold 10 % of their own shares to an individual investor and is perfectly entitled.