Manchester City crush Chelsea and Arsenal are world champions – Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30while the Goodison Park hoodoo is finally over for Everton. And can we call Arsenal rulers of the world? Not sure about that, but they are winners of the inaugural Champions Cup. We'll dissect that as well as radical changes to the FA Cup. Plus, we'll take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

0:57What a panel we have today. Susie Rack, how are you? Good. I'm not going to say tired. I'm not going to say tired, but good. It took you a while to say good. So I'm now slightly concerned. Well, I was trying to recompute my brain to not do the instinctive exhaustion related reply. Right. OK. OK. Well, good is good, I suppose. Tom Gary, are you good? Morning, yes, I'm well. Busy deadline day ahead and I'm ready and braced to tackle the day with all the little energy that I have left. Emily Keogh is always ready to tackle the day. She's like Zebedee, always got so much energy. How are you? I mean, that's not true.

1:42I'm very tired this morning. Yeah, no, I'm good. Like Tom said, yeah, it's a busy week, it's a busy day, but yeah, feeling good. Yeah, well, your day's about to get busier because we were going to kick off with the WSL weekend and Manchester City having one hand on the trophy. But we are agile on this pod and we have some breaking news to react to. It's regarding the Adobe Women's FA Cup and some quite radical proposals to change the competition. Tom, you've just broken this on The Guardian. What can you tell us? Yes, so we can reveal that the FA has proposed to seed the top four sides from the WSL from a previous season into the Women's FA Cup so that they'll be separated in the draw, which is going to be a hugely controversial and probably quite divisive plan.

2:30but it comes after a really big review of the competition that the FA have commissioned and the FA very much pitching this as a way to try and enhance the commercial revenue of the competition. The idea is to make some of the latter stages, the latter rounds, see some more compelling fixtures and bigger teams going head-to-head and sell that to broadcasters all around the world and have this big competition. But of course, that goes against so much of what we have seen about the Cup for so long that the balls are in the bag and anyone could draw anybody. That wouldn't be the case under this plan.

3:02The top four in the Devisal from the previous season would be seeded and they would introduce a new bracket system from the round of 32. So you would be able to see your pathway all the way to the final, like in a World Cup draw or Euros, etc. where you could see from the round of 32 who you might play all the way to Wembley. And that's another big change because we've all been so used to the balls coming out of the bag and all of that tradition. There are other changes in this too. The document that the Guardian have seen also says that the review concluded that Wembley should carry on hosting the final, which is a significant thing as well.

3:36And also the review found that the name should not change, that the FA Cup name has heritage and that shouldn't be changed. But it's interesting. I think that tells you how wide scope the review was. But I do think that there's going to be a lot of opposition to these plans for a lot of clubs already who don't like the idea of the big four being seeded. There's no final decision yet. The FA have told us that nothing's been finalised. It would need to be a further consultation period now and then there would be a final plan put to the FA board in April. But this is quite a serious proposal that we, the Guardian, have seen that was sent to clubs yesterday by email and it's going to be a fascinating few weeks now to see whether or not it gets the green light.

4:17Yeah, it really is. Controversial is definitely a word that's going to be used a lot, I think, Susie. Look, we haven't properly delved in. We've only just heard this news. So we haven't properly delved into the detail yet. But what's your initial reaction? Extreme scepticism, I would say, is probably initial reaction. I can see why they're doing it. I don't agree with it. I don't think it's necessary. I mean, the idea that one of the positives around it is that it kind of protects the final as a real showpiece because you are more likely to have one of the top four teams or two of the top four teams in the final, I think is unnecessary.

4:56Because if you look at however many seasons of the FA Cup final, I think it's in the past one, two, three, four, I've got them up in front of me, five, past five, only Spurs have breached the gap and played in the FA Cup final outside of Man United, Chelsea, City and Arsenal. And then if you go back a little bit further, You have Everton in 2020 in the final against City and West Ham in the final against City, the preceding year as well. And those are such huge moments for those clubs. So to put sort of further hurdles in front of those kind of teams from reaching the final by keeping the big teams from playing each other and knocking each other out, I think is like a real shame.

5:43It's the death of the magic of the cup in that it is literally ensuring that you have to beat a big team to reach the final. And one of the beauties of this competition is that they can take each other out. There can be, you know, giant against giant. Yeah. And also giant killings. I was just going through a few bits in terms of the fan base survey that they did as part of this review. large scale they've said over 6 000 responses collected which gives you know proper data on perceptions engagement and priorities from what they call the current and the potential fan base the question there is potential fan base are they football fans i'd quite like to know the demographic of the fan base and also what teams they support because obviously if you support a team in WSL2 or lower, I'm not sure whether you'd necessarily be on board with these proposals, Emily.

6:42What do you think? Yeah, I think you're completely right. And I think one of the, like Sue said, the beauty of the FA Cup is that we have these teams from the third, the fourth, the fifth tier that go on these incredible runs. And it might be the first time some fans are even knowing that there are teams below the WSL2 or that these teams exist. And then there's a huge exposure for them and that these positive stories are so important to the growth of the game on different levels and also for us as well as a chance to sort of from a journalist perspective cover other teams that have these really lovely stories to tell and I worry that we may lose that to a degree and we may lose the ability to sort of see these you know smaller teams with resources that are so so below the likes of the top four having these really impressive runs through the competition.

7:26It's so important for the clubs, for the growth of the game, you know, for everyone involved that we have those abilities, those stories, and I don't want to lose them. I am in favour to a degree of exploring new things. I think as, you know, we've seen with a lot of different movements with, you know, the Champions Cup, and I will come on to that later, with sort of the League Cup changes. Like I am, I do like the idea of looking at new ways that we could change the game and look to make it better. But I think when you look at, when you take a step back from that I don't think this is serving the overall game in England I don't think this is actually going to do the sort of thing that that maybe it's proposed to do because I think like Susie said you you just lose the sort of essence of what the FA Cup is and I think that's a disappointment so I'm I like the fact that the FA and the you know people in charge are looking at other ways to grow the game I just don't know this is the right way to grow the game yeah and I do understand, you know, even to get to the fourth round proper, as it's called now, they're proposing round of 32.

8:28You know, it's very difficult for lower league teams to get there. But this year alone, you've got Swindon Town in there, you've got Ipswich in there, you've got Oxford United, Chatham Town, York City, for example. So, you know, this is going to affect a lot of teams. But I think in the interests of fairness, bearing in mind we've only just received this information and Tom's just broken it on The Guardian, I think we need to delve a bit deeper into it before we cast complete judgment. As we say on this pod all the time, we are fans of innovation and changes if they're warranted. So watch this space.

9:08Right, let's talk about the WSL, shall we? Because, I mean, it was a seismic weekend, I think it's fair to say, with Manchester City sending shockwaves through the league, demolishing Chelsea to go 12 points clear at the top of the table and put one hand on the trophy, I think it's fair to say. And a 5-1 win, a hat-trick from Carolyn and goals from Bunny Shaw and Vivian Miedema stun Sonia Bonpastor's side. It's actually Chelsea's worst defeat since the 2018-19 season and it was some performance, Susie, wasn't it? Are they now champions instead of champions-elect? What did they get so right on the day?

9:47Well, no, they're not champions yet. They're champions-elect in that the maths doesn't math for them to be champions. The English doesn't English either. the English rarely English is for me and I mean what did they what did they get right what did they get wrong like everything right nothing wrong like just across the pitch defensively superb offensively just absolutely deadly that front three of Shaw Carolyn and Lauren Hemp was so damaging Carolyn and Hemp in particular absolutely annihilating City Outwide Mirdamas like vision from the sort of deeper role just superb and yeah like they were totally unplayable and like there was just a hunger there there was a hunger to every aspect of their game to every 50-50 ball into every challenge and Chelsea just couldn't cope at all and I think it's if anything a slight indictment of the League Cup semi-final in that this is what City should have done to Chelsea in that game as well because they possess this phenomenal, phenomenal ability and talent at the moment.

11:03Yeah, they do and that has always been Chelsea's domain, Emily, hasn't it? A huge blow for them but actually not just in terms of the math and the numbers but the manner of it as well. What went wrong for Sonia Bonpastor's side? I think a lot went wrong. I think defensively It just was all over the place. I don't think it was anywhere near the defensive display that it should have been from a team that has the quality like Chelsea. I do think they are still missing Natalie Bjorn. I think that's a huge miss for them and that we've seen that in that cohesion in the back line and attack's just not been there.

11:41And I will caveat that with sort of the injuries to Chelsea that, you know, from my perspective, Chelsea don't have an informed number nine at the minute, which is we've seen that in the less goals that they've scored this season compared to seasons previous. And the way that they've gone about their attacking, I think that's playing a huge role, but that doesn't offset just the poor performance all round. I think the tactics probably weren't right. I don't know if they were prepared enough for what City were going to do. I think I look at sort of the opening stages of that game and they almost look slightly shocked at how ruthless City were.

12:11And I wonder if that was slightly complacency from their point that maybe they thought that it was going to be a far more cagey game or far more open game than it was. And I think City just proved to everyone that this is what it takes to be a champion and that they deserve to win the title this season. I think they are the only team that have shown that they deserve to be to be winners. And when you look at sort of the race that we've had in the top of the table or if you can call it a race, really. So yeah, I think it just went wrong on all fronts, really. And I think off the back of that Arsenal defeat, the mentality probably wasn't there.

12:43And I wonder how much that defeat last week really shook them up internally. And maybe they didn't expect to not rebound the way that we've seen them before. Usually they come off a loss and they'll put three or four paths in other teams, but this is a different story. And I'm interested to see what the mentality is like from these two defeats back to back. because I think that's going to be really telling of where this team really is at and sort of how they move forward from it. It's interesting thinking of Sonia Bonpastor's mentality as well, bearing in mind her post-match comments. This is what she had to say.

13:17A lot of people talk about Chelsea being an example of having depth in the squad and of having players with different profiles they can bring into the game. Right now, I don't think we're in that place. I always reflect on my own decisions. This is a separate conversation, by the way. I always reflect on my decisions and my tactics. I'm always hard on myself. We played the game against Arsenal with a back three. In this game, we changed the system to a back four and tried something different with different players. As much as you always want to explain things in football, sometimes it doesn't work.

13:44When it's like this, it's tough for sure. What did you make of her comments, Tom? Is this just a little bit of a blip for Chelsea or is there something else going on behind the scenes? It's a risky game, isn't it? It's a really risky game to start talking about squad depth and even hinting that she wasn't 100 % happy with the last transfer window. We've seen in football that that doesn't often end very well. I was just surprised by the tone there. I also think when you start to talk about maybe not saying that you have enough depth, you have to think about how that message will be received by your substitutes, by the players that you didn't bring on, and what that will do for them on a confidence level.

14:26So I think I was surprised by the tone of the press conference from Sonia von Pastor. I think she took some big risks there. It's not an irretrievable situation. It's not like doomsday. You know, they've lost to Arsenal and Manchester City. They haven't gone and lost to, you know, two of the worst teams in the country. They've lost to two of the best teams in the country. But it doesn't sound like a very happy camp at all. I've been really surprised by the negative tone of some of the things I'm hearing from within the camp over the last 48 hours. and I was very worried by the body language on the pitch of the players who didn't appear to be playing for the manager right now.

15:03So I would be deeply concerned if I was Sonia Van Pastel and I would think that the game against Tottenham at the weekend where their Champions League qualification now is really important, that could be a really big game for her future, which is something that was unimaginable to think about, right? It was in December when she'd never lost a single domestic match. So it's almost ridiculous to even be talking about this, but it doesn't sound like a very happy camp at all. And the expectations are so high at the club. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were some big changes over the next few months, if things don't improve quickly.

15:42Yeah, it feels like pressure's mounting on her and on the team. The fan base are getting disgruntled. She was asked about her future and said, in the club if people think I'm not the right person to stay in this job then I'll be happy to go if they think that's the right thing but I'll never give up again this is Chelsea by the way we've seen what happens to outspoken managers at Chelsea in particular but do you think bearing in mind the context of all of that Susie and what Tom said that this was just unthinkable a few weeks ago I think it's fair to say that do you think it's actually fair that her position's under question?

16:18I think it's unfair that her petition is under question at this stage of the season, particularly after a unbeaten domestic treble last year. I think you deserve a little bit of leeway, particularly with a squad that arguably has kind of needed a little bit of a refresh. That said, once you start to lose a dressing room, I think that's when it becomes really really difficult for a manager to stay in post because there's literally not much they can do and not much a club can do to kind of resolve that situation right like it doesn't take much with a team of the the quality that Chelsea have in their number to turn things around but if they won't pay for the manager then that becomes a problem do I think it's particularly fair no do I think that there is maybe a naivety to the quality of coaches that are out there and available.

17:15Yes, like elite level coaching talent in the women's game is at a premium and like small in quantity. So, yeah, I don't think it's necessarily the right time. But I also am acutely aware that once the dressing room is gone, then, you know, that's kind of the writing on the wall a little bit as well. Yeah, we'll focus on positive because actually there was a winner in this game. We've focused a lot on Chelsea, but it feels like Andre Juggler at Manchester City has kind of breathed new life and energy into the club, which is something that they really needed. What are the main things on the pitch and behind the scenes, I suppose, Emily, that you think he's changed?

17:56I think, I mean, we've seen from spending a bit of time around the club at the start of the season, he has a completely different approach to what Gareth Taylor had. And I think the squad where they were at sort of end of last season really did need that. Like you say, that breath of fresh air, they really did need a change. And I think what you've seen is he's come in and from kind of what I hear and what I've seen, he likes to sort of give accountability to the players and want them to have ownership over what they're doing on the pitch. And I think that's a really key way that they've got the most out of a squad that has.

18:24You've got players like Viviana Midemar who are so intelligent. Her football IQ is incredible. and using her and her knowledge to be able to benefit everyone. I think that's been a really key thing in sort of making sure that the players are on board with what they're doing and that they have an ownership. So when it goes right, they feel that they played a role and that when it goes wrong, they've got accountability of, cool, right, what's the next thing? How do we fix this? And I think that's been a really key thing for them. And I do think they've done a lot of work behind the scenes on the squad.

18:53We've seen just the calibre of signings they've made and in key areas. I think that's been something that probably we've not seen from other clubs over the past couple of seasons, that maybe they haven't reinforced in the positions that, from an outside perspective, that we look at going, I look at Man United and think that, you know, maybe centre-back is an option that they should be looking to invest in. Whereas you look at City and the areas that they need reinforcements in, they've gone and got them. And so I think that's been a really key part for them as well. They've had a few injuries and last season they had a couple of injuries and it tore everything apart.

19:26you could tell that they had these huge injuries, whereas now they've sort of added that depth that they've been missing. You know, they're missing Carolyn for a while. Fugino was out for a while. And they didn't look like a team that was balancing a couple of injuries because they had that, they built up that depth. And I think that's been a really key point. So I think a lot has clicked for them this season. I think there's been a lot of work behind the scenes from the club to make sure that this is the season that it all falls into place. And I think they had to do that with, you're investing in a new manager and a new ethos, a new identity.

19:55and the club have to back the manager with that. And I think that's something that's been really nice to see is that everything has worked for them because they've put the work in. So I think a lot has really worked for them and I've been really impressed with Jag Lutts and what he's done with the club this season. Yeah, I agree. I've also been really impressed with Carolyn, Tom, and a hat-trick against the holders at the Etihad doesn't get much better than that. You were there on Sunday. What did you make of her performance? She was electric. and really a problem that Chelsea just could not cope with all through the game the pace the skill how much fun she was having and the confidence she was playing with she's one of the players that has really helped take this Manchester City team to the next level and the exciting thing if you're a Man City fan is that Andrejegler thinks she can still keep getting better and better and better I think that her performance on Sunday will probably be one we remember in 10, 15 years time and we look back on this changing of the guard, this was really symbolic of how Caroline kind of tore apart Chelsea.

21:00And I think that the link up she has with Bunny Shaw now is, as well as so many other of their four players, but particularly those two now, they're really taking the league by storm. And I think that they will dominate the end of season awards. And I really think that they were the difference. We've actually, we've seen Caroline play well against Chelsea at the Etihad before. And she just seemed to be playing with so much enjoyment and freedom and confidence. And when you have, yes, she was lucky with the deflected first goal, agreed. But the calmness in the chipped finish past Tannehampton in the second half and then, you know, the kind of speed with which she raced away from everybody from inside her own half to score.

21:42That was a goal that I think will be iconic when we look back on Man City's title win in the future. Manchester United took full advantage of Chelsea's downfall, didn't they? And Arsenal's Champions Cup exploits as well. We'll talk about that a bit later. But they're into second in the table, Mark Skinner's side. Didn't have everything their own way. It was a 3-1 win over Liverpool in the end, but they managed to find an extra gear in the second half. Lisa Nalson scoring a brace and Fridolina Rolfo coming off the bench to make sure of the victory. It was important for them, actually, Susie, wasn't it?

22:15but they did have to work for it because Liverpool are improving. But what changed in the second half for them to take control of the game, do you think? In terms of the second half, I think it's just that level of experience, quality, like the physical preparedness of players for a game of intensity. Liverpool struggled to handle that in the second half. When you're chasing the ball a lot, you get tired, don't you? It's just that experience and that patience that does it. in terms of the game as a whole I think what's impressive about Man United this season is their like rotation of players so you know Lisa Nelson who gets two goals is not in the starting 11 last week comes in for this game and has the impact that she does you know shifting Jess Park out into the wider area as well who was also as potent there as she is from the middle you've got Turland back in the starting lineup after Leah Schiller started last week and like I would say the overall difference in them and what they're sort of able to do this season is like they've added the quality but critically given it that quality time on the pitch to be able to slot in as and when needed in a way that I don't think they've had in previous seasons so I think that is what is keeping them like right up there battling at the top it's this um this very uh the interchangeable starting XI of very good talent now, that is stepping up and no one is necessarily being thrown out of the deep end, having not played many minutes and things like that, to the same extent that we'd maybe seen in previous years.

23:54Liverpool's still rooted to the bottom of the table, but we've talked about how much they're improving on the pod before, Emily. What positives do you think Gareth Taylor can take from their performance that they can build on going forward? I think it's really hard when you have a pretty good start to a game and then it slightly unravels in the second half, really because another team is just slightly ahead of where you're at. I think it's then really hard to look at those positives. But I think what we've seen, especially with Liverpool, is that that scoreline could have been very, very heavy, you know, first half of the season.

24:24That result probably goes another way and they could lose 4-5-0. And so I think it's a really positive that, one, they are starting to score more goals. I think that's a key, obviously, key part for them in terms of picking up points and trying to climb up that table. And then it's just sort of developing that ability, that resilience, the grit to really just grind out those results and not have sort of a team come back in the second half and really put the pressure on and they then lose, you know, 3-1. So there are positives there. I think it's still a really tough time for the club. I think, you know, everything works in tandem and they are starting to pick up a bit of form and the signings they've made in this window have been really key to sort of getting them into a good place.

25:02So I think it's as long as they can capitalise on those positives, like say in the early first half, sort of their ability to press, you know, the organisation of that. That's going to be key, I think, for them. Big relief for Brian Sorensen and Everton fans. They came from behind to beat Aston Villa. Their first win at Goodison Park. They're now ninth in the table. Ebony Salmon had put the visitors into the lead, but Martina Fernandes scored two brilliant headers to complete Everton's comeback. and win the game by two goals to one. It ends a six-game losing streak at home, Tom. They're now four points clear of the bottom.

25:39How timely is this win, do you think? Everton really needed that, Faye. Very significant result for them. Gives them a bit of breathing space from the bottom. It just eases a lot of pressure. I think it had been weighing on their shoulders that they hadn't won at home in the league this season, particularly that they hadn't won a Goodison Park this season in the league. and they had, to caveat that, had some very difficult fixtures. They played almost everybody in the top half at home. So this was perhaps one of the games they would have targeted, but they really needed it. And the fact they got it with a late goal will just give them a real confidence boost and a real lift.

26:13I think they have been disappointed with their results so far this season. They'd hoped to kick on. Being honest, I think if they'd lost this game and had another home defeat, I think a lot of the supporters would have really started to get fed up because there was boos after the last game. I was at their last home game against Brighton when they lost on the Friday night and there were boos there and even some chance of Brian out from a few supporters in one corner of the stadium. So I think this is a big, big result for them and should start to ease their concerns of ending up in the relegation playoff.

26:48They've still got a bit of a way to go yet, but with the home fixtures that they've got left, when all of the other teams around them have still got to go to Goodison, I think they're in a much healthier place now with that result. Yeah. Not so rosy or starting to look rosy for Aston Villa, though. Three defeats now on the bounce for Natalia Arroyo, Susie. They're struggling for consistency, Villa. I feel like we consistently say that on this pod. yeah I mean consistency is a key I don't even think you can call it a lack of consistency now because it's not even like it's one game on one game off they've lost three in a row they've lost five of the last seven so it's just a really really really poor dip in form confidence I don't know what it is I thought defensively they were a complete shambles you know the fact that you concede you know from a ruby mace cross into the box and a header in and then you know fine people concede from headers but then to do for the winner the exact same thing again essentially and to not be prepared for that threat I feel like is very very neglectful and they should have done better defensively for the first as well so not great it's a worrying runner form for a team that has, you know, quite a lot of talent and has had a fair bit of investment in it.