The WSL title race bursts into life – Women’s Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30by Manchester United and Spurs, who'd a thunk it, a third. Life not looking quite so rosy at the bottom of the table with Liverpool and West Ham still pointless. We'll take a look at the weekend's action and as the UEFA Women's Champions League returns, we look ahead to what we can expect from the competition this season. All of that plus we'll take your questions and that's today's Guardian Women's Football Weekly.

0:57What a panel we have today. Susie Rack, welcome back. How are you? Good, good. Happy-ish. I mean, the men's team helped. The women's didn't do so great, did they? No, no. We'll discuss that in a sec. Don't you worry. One of the first things that we're going to ask you about. The men's team? Yeah, let's stick to the men's team. Yeah, great. This is Women's Football Weekly. Head over to Max and Barry if you'd like to talk about Arsenal men. at top of the Premier League. Freddie Cardy, how are you? Yeah, same boat as Susie. To be fair, even my five-a-side team lost last night. So, you know, mixed footballing results in the last few days.

1:34Marva, producer Soph did say just as you came on, if we were going to wait for a win for Everton, we'd be waiting for ages to get you on a draw, though. That's OK. How are you? A draw is OK. And like the other two, also the Everton men result helped as well. So maybe we should stick to men's football this week. No, let's not, because Luton Town are not helping me out at all. So let's not, please. Right, Manchester City Arsenal always delivers, doesn't it? We were excited about it and we weren't disappointed. Another thriller. 3-2 it finished in the end. To Andre Jurgler's side, it was an 88th minute winner as well.

2:13Dramatic fashion, Imam Benet. I mean, look, we talked about how high the stakes were coming into this one. Susie, last week we posed a question that was a little bit naughty along the lines of, are Arsenal out of the title race if they lose this game? But I mean, it's that tight this season that, you know, dropping points against your rivals can do that. Do you think that is the case? And what did you make of the game? I mean, you have to play like it's not. But I mean, given Chelsea like dropped six points all of last season and Arsenal have dropped seven in three games, it's not a great look, is it?

2:49But also the fact that Chelsea haven't actually been playing that well so far this season and are still winning. Right. Like it's just what they do. And I actually I think I said it to someone in the press box the other day, last weekend or the weekend before, who was like bemoaning Chelsea playing really, really badly. I was like, I actually find this Chelsea more frustrating than a Chelsea that like from a fan point of view that sweeps everything aside and is winning like by huge margins and stuff. Because why can't my team do that? It's that winning regardless thing. And it's like hugely admirable.

3:33Like I'm so impressed of it. And I've asked Sonia previously. I've asked Emma Hayes previously. I don't know how you build that mentality that means that regardless of how you're playing, you're still winning or whether it's personnel or whether it's a bit of everything. But the fact that Chelsea do that so consistently is incredible. So in that sense, I think, yeah, like Arsenal are out of the title race, but they can't play like that. They've got to play as if they're going to be in it. To steal from the men's, like when Arsenal men lost to Liverpool, it was over, right? Like everyone, obviously it's different.

4:05Premier League is a much bigger league. there's much more games, points are dropped far more regularly potentially than in WSL given how short it is. But a couple of weeks later and things have changed. So things can change, it is possible and they've got to play like it's going to be possible. But yeah, it's not great. And I just need to say that I've been bigging up Iman Beni from the first game I saw her in at the Euros and said, this kid's a superstar. And yeah, annoyingly I was accurate. But that never happens on this pod. You should know that. I know, right? My predictions aren't good. What's going on?

4:43Well, and also it's a prediction for another team. So you've got to try and switch that somehow. Loads of question marks over Arsenal this season, it feels, Freddie. The goals have dried up as well. A bit of a criticism for René Slagers for not rotating in some positions. Where are these problems stemming from, do you think? I think there's definitely questions over Renee Slager's last season where we thought you know the rotation question is going to be our biggest challenge this is the biggest squad she's worked with this is the most players of this level that she's worked with and you know she was an interim manager for so long where you could forgive her just playing her best team every week just trying to steer Arsenal through and get results on the board and now she's very much got a different challenge but I put a piece up about sort of the lack of rotation and a lot of the comments were people saying no actually there's too much and there's really a mix in different areas of the pitch and the number 10 role's not been consistent at all.

5:39Wingers have sort of played well, but then been chopped and changed, which I think never helps. Alessia Russo starts a lot of games up front, finishes them in the 10 and then Stena Blackstenius doesn't often justify that. I really thought she'd start against Man City simply because she always does and she always scores against them and this felt like one of her games. But for Rene, you then make that decision, you throw her on and she misses a golden opportunity. So from there, that's out of your hands a little bit as the manager. But I'm just surprised at some of the areas in which she has rotated and some of them in which she's really kept it the same.

6:15And it's hard. It's hard when you've got Mariana Caldente and Kim Little as your midfield duo because it's really difficult to turn around to one of them and say we're going to try a younger midfielder like Kyra Kunicross, like Victoria Pilova. But the issue is when you don't do it for four games, the longer you leave them out when they come back in they can then come in cold and I think we really saw that with Lotto Wibben-Moy you know fair enough give Katie Reid this run of games but there's now this risk of every time they do make a change if they bring Akira in if they bring Pulova in she didn't look quite ready in that first half and I think that's the issue now for Arsenal is every time you know if they do make these selection gambles now they're even bigger gambles Yeah I know what you mean we'll talk about Chloe Kelly being on the substitutes bench and then coming on and doing what Chloe Kelly does in a second.

7:05But bearing in mind, we haven't even mentioned the team that actually won the game yet, as is the importance of the title race and dropping points within it, Marva. But my goodness me, Manchester City's attacking dynamism was on full flow, wasn't it? Full display this weekend. And Andre Jagler is full of praise for his side's belief throughout the game. This is what he had to say. I can be in front of the team and say I believe we can win the league and we can beat all the teams. But if we don't do it, it can then become empty words for the group to have that feeling that we can challenge and we can beat them.

7:40It is really important. And that's a really good point, isn't it? Because they just kept pushing Arsenal. What does it tell you about this team? Are they title contenders? I think they are. And I think a lot of us said, you know, the fact that they're not in Europe will definitely help their chances this season. I think he's actually been quite humble there to say it's kind of about their mentality on the pitch because I think his tactics and his system are largely, well, in a positive way at fault for how good they were in this game. When you look at what their fullbacks are doing now and you've seen it over the last few games but I think in this game particularly you really showed against top quality opposition as well.

8:15The role that Kaspari plays, the role that Wahabi plays, I just think it was such direct but exciting football. And it's not that they're only, you know, playing direct balls over the top or anything like that. Like they play it around the back, but it's with purpose. It's to make space for that fullback to get forward. And then once that fullback is in space, driving forward, linking up. And that's what we saw with that first goal. Yes, we can ask questions of the Arsenal defence. But I think how City played as a whole, it's just starting to click in a way that I think last season for them, they had the personnel, but there were issues in midfield.

8:49There were issues in connecting with the wingers and the fullbacks. whereas this team are really, really exciting. You look at Fagino and what she's bringing to the game. You look at the fact that she can push so wide but then when she slightly comes in, you've got Kasparai running, rings around her on the side, can play into her and then Bunny Shaw, just doing what Bunny Shaw does. I think there are very few number nines or even just strikers and attackers in the world that not only can put in that performance in terms of running forward with the ball, in terms of scoring But that assist, well, sort of assist at the end because it was kind of slightly stuck between defenders' legs.

9:25But that assist to flick it over Catley's head and then calmly play it through. I can't think of many other strikers in the world that can do that. I just think it was a complete, complete performance from her, even though she could have had, you know, another sort of two goals. They're such fun to watch again, aren't they? And I think we missed how fun they were to watch last season. and of course Chloe Kelly was part of their squad last season and didn't have the best of times, came to Arsenal and it was almost inevitable, Susie, that she was going to get on the score sheet, wasn't it? But the celebration, cupping her ear to the fans and it's fair to say it annoyed a few people.

10:04She stoked the fire on social media later, replying to a post saying, what's the score, Chloe, from a Manchester City fan account with a picture of her and the Champions League trophy. what do you make of it all should she stay out of this kind of stuff or is it quite fun it's fun like we need more of this like it's just a little bit of banter it's just fun i'd be happy if it was the other way around as well this isn't like you know oh it's arsenal like i love it i love i love it when players and teams are a little bit feisty with each other and like mess around like that and if someone being playful on social media there's so much horribleness on social media and i imagine players can feel pretty inundated with abuse a lot of the time so even jokey stuff like what's the score chloe kelly etc treat it in you what you hope the spirit of that is meant to be which is playful and be playful back why not i love it all i want more of it i want to see jess park knee sliding giving the finger to man city fans maybe that's a bit extreme um and uh and and grace clinton mooning uh mark skinner like let's go full hog like i'm here for i'm here for chaos playful chaos i am gonna call you keith flint you are now gonna have so producer silas from now on we are going to have um intro music for every guest and susie's is going to be fire starter by the prodigy i'm here for it i'm here for the game certainly lit up between manchester united and Chelsea.

11:36I was really excited to see how this game went, both goals coming in the first half. It was a fascinating battle because Manchester United, it feels, are kind of coming into their own in terms of title contenders now. And Mark Skinner was really disappointed that his side only came away with a point in the end. How impressed were you with the way that United approached the game? Yeah, very. I almost worry with United that the Champions League might be an issue for them this season. It's actually one of them campaigns where if they didn't have European football, I think they could have a decent crack at the title.

12:09I think there's a lot to like about the football they're playing this season. The fact that Sonia was very much saying, actually, that was a fair result and that's massive credit to Manchester United in that they've had Chelsea and Arsenal both go there and probably leave feeling frustrated, but actually holding the hands up and going, this is a good United team. There's a clear identity there. They're hard to break down. I think you look at the goalkeeper and the difference she's made, Fallon Tullis-Joyce, I think she's just taken them to a bit of a new level. And you mentioned Jess Park. I think that deal has worked out really, really well for them.

12:42I think sort of the counterattacking football they try to play, her and Ella Toon sort of have partnered really well. And they do have options just to an extent. And that's where I worry for them. I think they're a side that I'm not surprised to see them start the season well, but how they then balance sort of European football, WSL football, the other domestic competitions, I just fear that could be where they're undone. Definitely. I think last season what Man United struggled with was who they were playing and what position. And I think that Clinton-Toon kind of debate, not that either of them were bad, but they were really struggling to fit both of them into that team.

13:19Whereas I think what Jess Park brings, and this isn't an offence to Clinton at all, She's a brilliant player in her own right. But I think what Park brings to this team is that she can play more as an out-and-out winger. We saw it when she played on Lona Everton. She can play in a front three and that's kind of more comfortable for her in a way that she's happy to go fully out wide. She's happy to stay in that position. And it felt like Clinton and Toon were kind of making quite similar runs to each other. Whereas I think with Park and Toon, what you're seeing is Park goes out wide. But then when she does come in, it's a nice balance in that Toon then knows where to go.

13:52and there's this switching of positions between all of them, between Riviere. It was just a handful for the defenders and it was such an exciting game to watch. There were parts of it that felt like a basketball game. It was just so one into the other. But yeah, Man United's attacking, just not only their confidence, but I just think their movement was something that I haven't seen from them before, especially against teams like Chelsea, other than obviously that FA Cup semi-final. But generally, they've looked like a decent team. And then when they've come up against a team like Chelsea, it's almost like their heads drop a bit.

14:26They feel like they can't actually win the game. They try and play too defensively and then they ultimately get done for it. Whereas this is the first time I've seen them really go up against the top opposition in the league and go, we can match you. And when we get the ball, we're not going to play it safe. We're going to keep going. And there were chances for Chelsea to win at the end, but there were also chances for Man United to win at the end. And I think both teams actually put in a really, really good performance. I don't think you can even sort of look at criticisms for either of them.

14:56I just think it was a really exciting and great game for both teams. But I think it's a great sign that Man United are going away from that game saying, actually, we're disappointed we didn't win that because they're more than well in their rights to think that. I know exactly what you mean in terms of not, you know, but we have to critique in a way. So we've got to find some negatives somewhere. And I suppose from a Chelsea fan point of view, the negative is that it's the first time this season that they've dropped points. That, for me, as a neutral observer, makes everything way more exciting because I don't want another steamrollering Chelsea season because I'm afraid it just gets a little bit boring.

15:36So what are the struggles that Sonia Bonpastore has had, Susie? She has tinkered quite a lot, which she would, I mean, look at their squad. She has to tinker quite a lot to keep everybody happy, but she tinkered her tactics as well. Why didn't they come out of this game with three points? I mean, good question, because we know they can be brilliant. I really like that she's stuck with Aggie Beaver-Jones up top. I said it at the start of the season. I wrote a piece on it. Like if she gets a chance, if like she's given a chance to start ahead of some of those players, she'll do really well. She'll deliver for them and she deserves to be given that shot.

16:12So that's really great. But something isn't quite working for them and I can't pinpoint what it is. Maybe it's the midfield, but there's just a real lack of fluidity to their play at the moment. I don't know if they've managed to find a way to get the best out of Kira Walsh. I think that's a little bit of an issue. It was the issue all last season. I think it's still an issue now. Now, I do think they maybe need a little more in midfield in January to kind of help find that fluidity through the middle. Because I don't think they've quite got that at the moment. Interesting. So Chelsea, top of the table on 13 points.

16:49Manchester City, a point behind them. Just that first defeat to Arsenal on the first game of the season. Tottenham are in third. We're going to talk about them in a second. Manchester United fourth, by the way, Spurs level on points with Man City 12. Man United 11 points. Arsenal in fifth on eight points. They haven't won since the second game of the season. Two draws and a defeat in their last three games. So question marks to ask. And they haven't even started the Champions League yet. So fascinating, isn't it? But the problem that we've seen season after season is that the challenges in the WSL get close to Chelsea, but never quite close enough.

17:34Is this the year this is going to change? Well, from an Arsenal perspective, I'm not quite sure. And Susie made a good point in the fact that if Chelsea realise they want to strengthen their midfield in January, they just go out and do it. And that's sort of, they're so accustomed to doing that. And I think that's almost the difference here is that Arsenal, I think, come January could easily be looking at certain positions and thinking we need to get someone in. But I think they need to have a little look at their recruitment at some point in terms of have we capitalised well enough on winning the Champions League?

18:04And why is there such a history of Arsenal after this stage in the season or come Christmas of Arsenal having to chase Chelsea? Because that's just not sustainable as a team trying to win the WSL when you're falling behind season after season. And I think that's why we've seen the fans' frustration. I think, you know, Rene Slagas has credit in the bank. The Lisbon memories were fun, but everybody wants to see Arsenal, you know, from the fan perspective to win the WSL. And they know this club should be capable of it. So I like the look of Manchester City, certainly. But I think Chelsea will just be in a position where they'll probably get to January and are out on top of the table and just be able to go on and push from there.

18:44And for Arsenal, I think it's next month they host Chelsea. I mean, if they lose that, then that could well just be it. I think they're going to have to beat Chelsea home in a way to have any chance. You know, what United can sustain, what Tottenham can sustain, maybe. You know, we'll have to see. But it's quite hard to look past Chelsea, even though they're not blowing teams away. And that'll be the frustrating thing for these other sides. We shall see. That's it for part one. In part two, we'll continue to look back at the weekend's action and we'll look ahead to the Champions League.

19:24Welcome back to part two of the Guardian Women's Football Weekly. So Tottenham Hotspur moved up to third in the table, securing a second win on the bounce against Brighton. Katinka Tamberg's first half goal proving the winner at Brisbane Road in the end. Before we talk about the game, though, in a pre-match statement, Captain Bethany England said Spurs wouldn't be taking the knee before the match because it no longer feels meaningful in the wake of racist abuse received by Jess Naz on social media. Head coach Martin Ho wore a T-shirt reading Spurs Against Racism. This is what Bethany said. We're still seeing prejudice and racism and there's so much more everyone should be doing.

20:04This isn't a tick box. This is people's lives, people's feelings. And it needs to change. Susie, we had this debate during the Euros when the Lionesses chose not to take the knee in support of Jess Carter. how else can the message get through? I think it's fine to not do it if you're doing something else I feel like that was the problem at the Euros is that you couldn't tell that anything was being done so it was like it went from a statement being made on something to no statement being made on something and yes they spoke about it beforehand but for someone who just switched on the game and isn't in tune with the build up and what players are speaking out on you would not have noticed that there was any protest or support for their black players or support for Jess Carter in that horrific time for her.

20:52It wasn't visible at all for kids watching it, for newer people watching it, for people who don't particularly care. Would they even notice the knee being taken anymore? It's been done so much. So I understand shifting it up, but you've got to do something else. So it's good that they wore shirts in the warm-up and things like that, but that's not at the match itself and I kind of feel like there still needs to be something there. Not doing anything feels a bit of a step back overall even though the intentions are good. What did you make of it, Marva? I think for me it's that I agree with Susie in the sense of how can we expect football to solve a problem in a society where we see rise of racism and violent racism on the streets in a way that we haven't seen in a little while.

21:38But I think when you look at the power that football has, especially in terms of money and not just the football teams themselves, but all the brands around it, this is a, you know, multi-billion pound industry. And I just think, actually, if a lot of these clubs and brands said to these social media platforms, we're going to come off these platforms until you saw something about this, until you do some concrete action, where would that leave us? and I just feel like bigger statements like that in terms of actions and that's not to say that you know Bethany England is responsible for that or that Spurs women themselves are responsible for that at all but I'm looking bigger and I'm looking at the wider football structures and the brands involved and I do think that if they were to make more of a statement like that to social media platforms where a lot of this racism is happening I think that would make a much bigger much bigger stand than just saying we need to do something about it of course we need to do something about it so let's do something about it yeah very good point Jess Naz got specific praise Freddie from her manager after the game saying it was one of her best performances for the club player of the match performance and really impressive actually after a difficult couple of weeks for her facing that racist abuse on on social media she was brilliant yeah I was sort of flicking between the games because none really stood out unfortunately on on that Sunday afternoon and I was really pleased you know when they came across to the Spurs game and it was that brilliant ball in from Jess Naz because she can blow hot and cold.

23:04I feel like she's been in and around the England squad and never really been someone in contention to start when you look at the quality of the wingers and the forwards England have there. But she's a key player and Katinka Tamberg has just taken them to a bit of a new level as well. I think she's taken a lot of pressure off Bethany England, allowing her to drop a little bit deeper. You know, Martha Thomas hasn't really scored the goals they'd have wanted over the last couple of years. And to have this number nine in, I think, is really helping them sort of unlock a bit of potential now. And I feared for them after that defeat to Man City because defensively they really didn't look great.

23:38But to see them sort of put that to one side and win the games that they need to be winning has been really impressive. Yeah, I think Chris Poweros, friend of the pod, is going to be incredibly excited. We're used to talking to her about relegation battles, aren't we? I tell you what though Brighton's Dario Vidozic cut quite a frustrated figure on the touchline after the game he was particularly unhappy Susie with the referee's performance this is what he had to say I love it when a manager starts it with I don't want to get in trouble but I think there are two clear penalties first half and 100 % one in the second half with Kiko Seiki she clearly gets taken out from my view contact is there, clear contact what did you make of both the decisions and you know can you understand his annoyance I actually think particularly the first one that when Toga sort of like froze herself like is on the floor and froze herself in front of the legs of whichever attacker it was I've forgotten and basically like completely bundles are over it doesn't get much more obvious than that I thought that was a really really poor decision the second one And yeah, given.

24:49But I think that first one for me was the big one, right? That is what puts the game in a completely different position. Poor decision making from the referee. Let's talk Everton, Marva. I know you've been itching too. Got your Toffees hoodie on this morning. It's been noted. Actually, I have to say, leading into this game, Leicester and Everton is a fixture that historically has actually delivered the least amount of goals. So I wasn't particularly excited by this. two goals is pretty good that's fine King Power Stadium Mouchon's late strike seeing Leicester salvage a point after Ornella Vignola fired Everton ahead nearly the win but ultimately Marva did you do enough to deserve three points or was it a fair result between these two teams?

25:35I mean it was a fair result in the sense that they equalised and they took their chance so we can't complain in that sense and I'm very frustrated for us as a team because I think it was actually the best performance we've put in all season. I think we showed a lot of really good signs throughout that game. We dominated for the majority of the game. I think once it hit the sort of 60-minute mark, Leicester started to come into it a bit more. And then also once they got their goal, then it was looking like, oh, we could lose this now. Although we still had chances to win it ourselves. So it was a really frustrating game, actually, because I think, not to be too pessimistic already about the season, but we know how short a WSL season is.

26:13And if you only get one point against Leicester, London City, Brighton and Spurs combined. What are you kind of hoping for for the season? And I think that's something that the club really needs to look at. And it's going to be, I think it will be a bit of pressure on Brian Sorensen because he has got a lot of the players that he's wanted. I will say, however, that we were without Gago and Brosnan. And I think Brosnan saves that goal, actually. I think Ramsey usually saves that goal. She played well, but that goal should have been saved. And I think Gago scores a lot of those chances we had in the first half and beginning of the second half.

26:46So yeah, there were signs. I thought Katie Robinson was actually really, really good for us. Just that clinical edge, she kind of lacked that confidence. So hopefully playing her a little bit more, bringing on Payne a little bit earlier for that kind of direct football. There's some hope there in terms of moving forward, but it's kind of, I don't want to say too late because you never know, but it does feel like, well, what are we then hoping to achieve now? Because we've played a good majority of the sort of mid to lower table teams. We haven't even played the top four yet. so yeah good thing that I was on this week because I'm not sure you would have seen me on in the next few weeks if you were waiting for an Everton win We did mention you on the first pod that you'd be gutted that you weren't on for that one that's so typical Leicester are such an interesting side Freddie I don't think I've ever worked them out since they've been in the WSL I'm not 100 % sure what kind of team they are but what I can say is they've got this kind of never say die attitude that they've developed and they were always in this game as well and Noemi Mouchon's first goal since coming back from that ACL injury that she suffered last October so a year ago and of course scoring within a minute of coming onto the field you could tell she was absolutely desperate to get her boots back on that was quite a special moment for her.