Inside the Love Lab with Drs. John & Julie Gottman (Part 1)

19:30Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:So give me a sense of how couples can react to one another's bids, you know, so maybe because you've talked about like three different ways people can kind of react.

19:38Dr. John Gottman:So let me start with a bit. Honey, you know, I had a really disturbing dream last night about your mother.

19:45Dr. Laurie Santos:Honey, you know what? I'm reading. Would you stop interrupting me? I don't want to talk about that. Boom. That's hostile, right? That's turning against. That's what we call it. Turning against. Try it again.

19:59Dr. John Gottman:I really had a disturbing dream last night about your mother. I'd like to talk to you about it.

20:06Dr. Laurie Santos:Silence. It's as if your partner didn't say a word. They don't exist. That's called turning away, and it makes people feel unimportant, devalued, disrespected, invisible. Now let's try it again.

20:23Dr. John Gottman:I had a really disturbing dream last night about your mother.

20:27Dr. Laurie Santos:You did? Yeah. Really? My mother got into your dream?

20:31Dr. John Gottman:Yeah, she was right in there.

20:32Dr. Laurie Santos:Oh, no. So what happened? Tell me about it.

20:36Dr. John Gottman:She was so nice to me. What? Yeah. I was really surprised that she

20:43Dr. Laurie Santos:was so affectionate. That's called turning towards where you're immediately responding with interest, with attention, and with connection to your partner's bid for connection.

20:58Dr. John Gottman:feels so different. You know, when you try to connect and your partner doesn't. So the probability we discovered of rebidding when your partner turns away is almost zero in relationships that are doomed. It's only 22 % in relationships that are going to stay together. So it's very low all the time. So people kind of crumple inside a little bit.

21:21Dr. Laurie Santos:Can I describe an image? If you imagine a sea anemone. Those are those creatures, you know, that have about a hundred little tiny fingers, and those fingers will stretch out, straighten out, and open up when they're relaxed and they're happy. Imagine just poking a little bit, poking in the center, which is the equivalent of turning against. And what happens? The sea anemone folds up its fingers very quickly and tightly, and is very reluctant to open them up again. That's, you know, classically what happens inside of us. When somebody turns against our bid, you know, when we're opening up to our partner, they turn against or away, we shrink down inside of ourselves and again feel unsafe.

22:15Dr. Laurie Santos:So we don't want to open up again, not for a while.

22:19Dr. John Gottman:So love occurs in these very small moments, which is why we say love's a verb, because it's what you do moment to moment that makes the difference.

22:28Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:One of the reasons I find this work so powerful is that, you know, I get the sense, of course, that when you're kind of being adversarial, when your partner makes a bid, if you say, why are you talking to me or something, that that's negative. I think the striking thing from your work is that it's just as bad when the partner just reacts with silence, when you're not paying attention. After reading your work, I've been much more careful about this with my husband, but there are definitely times when I'm, you know, checking my email or looking at a screen that, you know, he's mentioning something.

22:53Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:And my son's like, oh, it's not interesting. Like, it's so easy not to pay attention. But when you realize, like, the person on the other end of that email, they're not going to care that I took, you know, time away for two seconds. But my husband, you know, that bid, it matters a lot if I turn away. I mean, is this the kind of thing you see in couples nowadays when there's so many more distractions for our bid time?

23:12Dr. Laurie Santos:Yes, yes, yes. I mean, I'm sure all of us have gone into a cafe and we've seen a table of four people, maybe. Every single person is on their phone and they're looking at their screens. They're not looking at each other and there's absolute silence at the table. What kind of community connection is that? It's nothing, which for me anyway, is very painful to see because there's the opportunity. All these people sitting together or a couple sitting together where they really could be having interaction, connection, laughter, delight, enjoyment, sharing stories. Nope. Silence. That feels very empty, like a vacuum exists between them.

24:01Dr. John Gottman:Well, you know, what's really amazing, Lori, is that these small moments mount up, you know, and either create an emotional bank account that has a lot of good stuff in it or one that's barren. In the latter case, it leaves people feeling very lonely and in the other, very full and very connected. And it affects not only love in the moment, it affects our physical health and longevity. So if we have a more connected relationship, we're going to live about 17 years longer than if we don't.

24:35Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:If living a longer, happier life isn't a good enough reason to pay just a little more attention to our loved ones, then I don't know what is. But being receptive to our partner's bids for attention are only one of the things that the Gottmans recommend. Their next challenge involves finding ways to remain curious about our lovers, no matter how long we've been with them. We'll hear more about why building curiosity is so important when The Happiness Lab returns in a moment.

25:05Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:As someone who teaches about the science of happiness, I spend a lot of time thinking about time affluence, how the simple act of having a bit of free time can help us live better lives. But here's the irony. When you're racing between teaching classes, recording podcast episodes, and actually trying to practice what you preach about well-being, sometimes the basics, like eating well, get pushed aside. That's why Premier Protein shakes have become my go-to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and tons of delicious flavors. They're the healthy choice you'll actually want to make, not one that feels like a chore.

25:41Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Premier Protein helps me protect my time affluence. Using those shakes empowers me to say yes to more, whether that's an early morning walk before work, hosting a cozy dinner party, which I love, or having the energy to really be present with my friends. Because the research is clear, we're happiest when we have the free time we need to fully show up for the moments that matter. Find your favorite flavor at premierprotein.com. Find home wherever you roam. At Sonesta ES and Simply Sweets. Stretch out and enjoy home-like amenities for however long you need. And when you're a Sonesta Travel Pass member, staying at Sonesta ES and Simply Sweets means earning points toward free nights, upgrades, and more.

26:20Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Go to Sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock their best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass. Here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now at Sonesta.com. Terms and conditions apply. The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. It feels good to be understood. Amica goes above and beyond to customize the right coverage for you by taking the time to really understand your needs. because creating peace of mind is at the heart of Amika's mission. Whether you're at home or on the road, Amika knows it's not just about where you're going, but who you go with. Go with the insurer that truly understands you.

27:00Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:As a mutual company, Amika puts its customers' needs first. Visit amika.com and get a quote today. As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation. It's also about being present with your choices. And for me, present at mealtime. That's why I choose Dietz & Watson. They're a family-owned and operated business, and they never cut corners. Ever. I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes. Dietz & Watson have been handcrafting meats and cheeses for over 85 years. They know that good taste doesn't need a long list of ingredients. They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't.

27:42Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:And that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great. They stick to what matters, using the fewest, highest quality ingredients to craft their meats and cheeses. Because that's how they've always done it. If you want a more mindful meal, check out Dietz & Watson. Dietz & Watson. It's a family thing. Since 1939. Visit DietzAndWatson.com slash the right way to learn more about the Dietz difference. That's DietzAndWatson.com slash the right way.

28:13Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:If you're months, years, or even decades into a relationship, you might be tempted to think that you know everything there is to know about your partner. But relationship experts Julie and John Gottman say that can be a fatal assumption. It can also be a problem when life simply gets in the way of the usual relationship curiosity.

28:31Dr. Laurie Santos:When we get busy, things to do, children to pick up, meals to make, grocery shopping to do, Busy, busy, busy. How much time do we actually have to give to conversation with our partner where we're simply just wanting to know how was your day? What was the worst part about it for you? What was really happening that upset you, etc.? We're not asking each other those big questions.

29:00Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Julie says that retaining a deep curiosity is vital to the health of any relationship, but it's also something that often fades after the early days of courtship.

29:08Dr. Laurie Santos:You may remember when you were first dating or you first met your partner, you didn't know anything. And so you ask them lots of questions to find out who are they? What makes them tick? Where did they come from? How did that legacy influence them now? But when we get busy with kids, with jobs, with careers, we take for granted that we really know our partner. So we don't need to ask those questions. anymore. But think about it, guys. Every single day is a new experience. And every new experience builds another layer of identity into each individual. Well, how do you keep up with that evolution of your partner, that development as they go through new experiences, politics, friendships, you know, who do they become?

30:05Dr. Laurie Santos:Because we're always in a state of becoming. We never have just arrived. That's an illusion. We're always becoming. And thus, we have to keep asking open-ended questions. That is, questions that have a great big answer, not just a one-word or two-word answer to learn who are you today? Who do you want to be tomorrow? Those are important questions to keep repeating throughout our relationship. May I tell you a story, Lori? Oh, please. Yeah. Here's the story how all of this got started. When John and I were first married, we didn't have much money. He was a professor. I was starting in private practice, But we wanted to go out on a date night once a week.

30:55Dr. Laurie Santos:So we lived in Seattle and there's a beautiful hotel called the Sorrento that has a magnificent big stone fireplace in the lobby and gorgeous, beautiful, soft couches that you fold into right in front of the fireplace. So what John and I would do is we would go to this hotel and we pretend we were guests And we would grab a couch, stay in the couch for three hours, have one drink, which was cheap. And at the end of the date, we would walk out. So during the date, we would ask each other these big questions. John always brought a yellow pad and he would take notes about my answers, which meant, oh, my God, I better be careful because one of those answers might wind up in a book.

31:44Dr. Laurie Santos:So I was very careful about what I said. But we were never at a loss for questions because there was always more going on week to week that we wanted to learn about.

31:54Dr. John Gottman:And later on, we developed this tradition of our annual honeymoon. We would rent a room and a bed and breakfast. And for about two weeks, we would ask each other three questions. What did you love about this year? What did you hate about this year? And what do you want next year to be like? So we do kind of like a review of the whole relationship for that year in that annual honeymoon. We've done it for 23 years now. It's tradition. And we ask those open-ended questions of each other just to kind of understand how our partner has been affected by the year and what they're thinking about.

32:33Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:It sounds like this is so powerful to just kind of take the time to get to know your partner, right? You can notice them changing over time and so on. But this is the kind of thing that we forget to do when we're busy. Another thing we forget to do when we're busy is to notice our partner's good features. But you've argued that we need to fight this tendency, that another thing we can do to make love last is to notice the good stuff.

32:53Dr. John Gottman:Can I tell you about a study that is really amazing? We didn't do it. This study had observers in couples' homes just noting down everything positive that one person said to the other. And one observer was observing the husband, one observing the wife. The couple was also scoring what their partner was doing positive. And what they discovered was that when the relationship wasn't going well, people missed 50 % of all this positivity. They just didn't see it.

33:24Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:So the idea is your partner is doing good things. They're taking the garbage out, emptying the dishwasher, saying nice things, but it's just you don't even notice. It's just going over your head.

33:31Dr. John Gottman:You don't even notice it. Right. That's an amazing study. Robinson and Price did that study. You know, it's so important because here's the positivity, but it's not getting noticed by the partner when they're really unhappy in the relationship. Right.

33:46Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:And so how do we fix that?

33:47Dr. Laurie Santos:Well, so our motto is look for what your partner is doing right and say thank you. Very, very simple thing. It's a habit of mind. You know, we've grown up in a very critical society. This is a very competitive, contemptuous place a lot of times where we're critical, we're being criticized, we're always comparing ourselves sometimes negatively to other people. So you've come by it righteously, this habit to look for what's going wrong, right? But it's not that hard to just shift to, if my partner wasn't taking out the garbage, wouldn't that be a drag? How wonderful that they're taking out the garbage.

34:33Dr. Laurie Santos:Thank you very much for taking out the garbage. So if you imagine your partner's not doing this positive thing, it means you'll probably have to be doing it, which will stress you out even more because you already have a lot on your plate, right? So it's practicing gratitude and it's seeing what are they doing? Even those little subtle things, every single morning for the last, I don't know, 37 years since we've been together. John's been making our coffee every single morning. And here it is. And it's really good. And I love it. And I thank him every single morning. I know how she likes it. He knows how I like it.

35:19Dr. Laurie Santos:And if I keep saying thank you, he'll keep making it.

35:23Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:And I know you had, If I recall from the book, I know you had a story where you really noticed for the first time how important that was when he wasn't there to make a coffee. Oh, well, I was very sad that he wasn't there.

35:35Dr. Laurie Santos:And I was thinking, God, does it take five scoops or six scoops? And I can't remember what I did. And I don't know. I put in seven scoops just for the heck of it. And then I shot to the ceiling after drinking half a cup and stayed there for the next 24 hours. This was not a good thing. So the next time when John made the coffee, it was like, oh, thank you for making the coffee. I'm so relieved that you're here making the coffee.

36:02Dr. John Gottman:Yeah, this can become a habit of mind, really. Instead of focusing on your partner's mistakes, and we all make mistakes, if you focus on what your partner is doing right and really express appreciation for it, then it's an entirely different relationship. And actually, the person who shifts their habit of mind to noticing what's going right actually becomes less stressed and they become nicer. That's kind of surprising. But, you know, when you have that positive habit of mind, the world looks a lot kinder and more generous.

36:36Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:And this is something you've talked about a lot, that we really do have much more control over these habits of mind than we expect. That in some sense, this negativity bias, not asking these questions, in some ways, they're like an active choice, even though we don't realize.

36:50Dr. Laurie Santos:That's well said. Well, first of all, you have to start with intention. So is it your intention to make this relationship better? You know, in the past, before a lot of this research got done, we had no idea of how to make relationships better. Did it take more sex? Did it take better cooking? You know, what did it take? But now with this research well-grounded here and telling us what to do, then we have tools. We have alternatives as to the good habits to put into place in our relationship. And they're really not that hard, Lauren. Here's how much it takes. Wow, look at that beautiful bird. Huh, nice.

37:39Dr. Laurie Santos:That's all it takes, period. is just a couple of little syllables. All of us can do that. It's just a matter of our intention, our intention to connect, to be loving.

37:54Dr. John Gottman:Can I say something here about this? Okay. So, you know, my former graduate student, Janice Driver, discovered that when people increase their turning toward, which just takes really an awareness of how your partner is reaching out, then what happens is when there's conflict, people automatically have a sense of humor about themselves. They can laugh at themselves. And being able to laugh together when you're disagreeing reduces physiological arousal. It really bonds you even though you're disagreeing on a topic. So it's very powerful.

38:29Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:And it fits with this other ratio that you figured out, which is that the positivity to negativity ratio overall seems to matter, right? So that little infusion of humor can be quite powerful. Explain what this ratio is and why it's so important for relationship success.

38:43Dr. John Gottman:So, you know, Bob Levinson and I counted in a 15-minute conflict discussion, how many seconds people are kind to each other, interested, curious, generous, saying even small things like, oh, yeah, huh? Oh, wow. You know, those kinds of reflections, they really lubricate the wheels of conflict so that we arrive at more mutual understanding. What was a big surprise was that the masters of relationships during conflict, that ratio of positive to negative, that interest in one another, that excitement, curiosity, agreement, understanding, was five times as common as negativity in the masters of relationships.

39:29Dr. John Gottman:And in couples that were doomed, that ratio was 0.8, just a little bit more negativity than positivity. It's very famous in Seattle. I was coming out of Starbucks a couple of months ago when this guy drove by in his truck and rolled down his window and said, five to one, right? You know, it's become well known, at least in Seattle.

39:53Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:When John says it out loud, it seems so obvious. Happy relationships spring from two people being warm towards one another, willing to express interest in and concern for their partner in far greater proportion than any complaints they might air. After the break, we'll hear more advice that again sounds obvious, but seems to be followed only by those rare masters of relationships. That advice is not to treat your partner like a mind reader. The Happiness Lab will be right back.

40:25Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:As someone who teaches about the science of happiness, I spend a lot of time thinking about time affluence, how the simple act of having a bit of free time can help us live better lives. But here's the irony. When you're racing between teaching classes, recording podcast episodes, and actually trying to practice what you preach about well-being, sometimes the basics, like eating well, get pushed aside. That's why Premier Protein Shakes have become my go-to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and tons of delicious flavors. They're the healthy choice you'll actually want to make, not one that feels like a chore.

41:00Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Premier Protein helps me protect my time affluence. Using those shakes empowers me to say yes to more, whether that's an early morning walk before work, hosting a cozy dinner party, which I love, or having the energy to really be present with my friends. Because the research is clear, we're happiest when we have the free time we need to fully show up for the moments that matter. Find your favorite flavor at premierprotein.com. From coast to coast, unlock adventure at Red Lion Hotels by Sinesta, where restful sleep, friendly service, and local knowledge await. Whether for business or pleasure, spend less and make more of every trip.

41:37Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:When you sign up for Sinesta Travel Pass, you'll get our best rates instantly. Go to Sinesta.com to book your stay and unlock our best rates with Sinesta Travel Pass. Here today, roam tomorrow. Join now at Sinesta.com. Terms and conditions apply. The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. It feels good to be understood. Amica goes above and beyond to customize the right coverage for you by taking the time to really understand your needs. Because creating peace of mind is at the heart of Amica's mission. Whether you're at home or on the road, Amica knows it's not just about where you're going, but who you go with.

42:18Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Go with the insurer that truly understands you. As a mutual company, Amica puts its customers' needs first. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. As a happiness expert, I know that mindfulness isn't just about meditation. It's also about being present with your choices. And for me, present at mealtime. That's why I choose Dietz & Watson. They're a family-owned and operated business, and they never cut corners. Ever. I use their chicken sausage with no added hormones in my family recipes. Dietz & Watson have been handcrafting meats and cheeses for over 85 years. They know that good taste doesn't need a long list of ingredients.

42:58Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:They're totally transparent about what goes into their food and what doesn't. And that's why their meats and cheeses taste so great. They stick to what matters, using the fewest, highest quality ingredients to craft their meats and cheeses. Because that's how they've always done it. If you want a more mindful meal, check out Dietz & Watson. Dietz & Watson. It's a family thing. Since 1939. Visit deetsandwatson.com slash the right way to learn more about the Deets difference. That's deetsandwatson.com slash the right way.

43:49Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:stupid strategy, but it's also one a lot of us follow. And Dr. Julie Schwartz-Gottman has a theory why.

43:56Dr. Laurie Santos:Let me just say first, give it some context, that in this country at least, we have grown up with the value of pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You're weak when you need somebody else. It's not okay to have needs. Women especially are called too needy. And, you know, here's the basic truth. The truth is that human beings are pack animals. We are pack animals. We don't survive without our tribe or our intimates who are really there for us. It's the lone wolf versus the wolf pack, right? Well, we're very similar to that. So what does that mean? It means we need to connect. We need to connect all the time.

44:44Dr. Laurie Santos:So when people feel terrible about expressing their needs, they can go two ways. Either they expect their partner to read their minds, and then out of nowhere, the partner is hearing, why didn't you actually see that I was sick and bring me tea? Why didn't you do that? Well, the partner, number one, didn't know that this first person was sick, didn't know they liked tea, when they were sick, etc. How would they know the other person is not saying what they need, right? So those needs can stack up over time and create huge amounts of resentment and anger that the other person is not there for them.

45:31Dr. Laurie Santos:But the fact of the matter is, how would the other know how to be there for the first person when the needs are not being expressed. So it's incredibly important for people to realize that interdependency is what creates a strength in a relationship. And interdependency is created by saying what you need in a positive way, saying how your partner can shine for you, and then hopefully your partner responds in that way which is really fulfilling for you and fulfilling for them because it makes them feel valued and trusted that you're expressing a need to them they're the chosen one that you are trusting and and let me let me say something

46:25Dr. John Gottman:else laurie so far we've been talking about asking open-ended questions and now we're talking about expressing needs. So if your listeners go to the app store and type in Gottman card decks, they can download a free app that has expressing needs cards that they can go through once a week, for a half an hour and say, well, here's what I need from you this week to feel loved. And they can have a card deck that has all these open-ended questions on it that they can use. We use these card debts all the time. And they've been downloaded about 350 ,000 times. So they're available for free.

47:06Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:And I think that, you know, having like a little bit of help when you're asking for what you need can be really important because I know, you know, maybe this just in my own life that, you know, Julie, you mentioned that we need to ask with positivity. But I think sometimes when you're feeling really resentful, that can be hard. And sometimes when you finally go about asking for help, it can come off sounding like a criticism. It can sound off like, you didn't empty the dishwasher and I needed that. Talk about maybe a healthier way to go about asking for those needs and like the steps that we need to get in there to do it effectively.

47:36Dr. Laurie Santos:First of all, let me just insert a little piece of research here. What John and Bob and other colleagues found is that the first three minutes of a conflict conversation when you're bringing up your complaint, not only predicts how the rest of the conversation will go that first three minutes, it also predicts how well the relationship is going to go six years down the road with over 90 % accuracy. So how we bring up our complaint is absolutely crucial. We found that successful couples had a formula for this, which we really try to practice and to teach others to practice. Number one, say what you feel.

48:24Dr. Laurie Santos:You're describing yourself. So you're saying things like, I feel angry. I feel resentful. I feel frustrated. You can't sabotage it and say, I feel that you are an idiot. No, it's not going to work. Or I feel like you're such a schmuck. That's not going to work. Right? So it has to be a real emotion. I feel stressed. I feel disappointed. Then step two, about what? Now notice that's not about who, about your partner and how rotten they are. It's about the situation. So it's going to sound like I feel upset that there's a new dent in the car. That's the situation. I feel angry that here's the situation.

49:12Dr. Laurie Santos:The bills haven't been paid. I'm sick and tired of cooking dinner every night, etc. So you're describing the situation and you're feeling about it. Then the all-important step three, you say what your positive need is. And let me distinguish positive from negative. Negative need means what you don't want your partner to do. Positive need means what you do want your partner to do. So if you have a negative need, like stop leaving the kitchen a mess, that's a negative. Flip it on its head and think, okay, what would be the opposite of this that I would really like? I wish you would clean up the kitchen nightly.

50:03Dr. Laurie Santos:That would be such a help. And that positive need opens up your partner so much more than your partner hearing a criticism, which feels like a put down, which makes them want to withdraw and pull away or get defensive.

50:20Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:It's such a powerful strategy because when you say what you're feeling about what situation and then state a positive need, nowhere in there is a critique of your partner, right? Like you haven't said because you did this bad thing. there's no kind of causal thing that your partner did wrong. And that must mean that like people just don't get as offended, right? Everybody's on board with trying to help. It lets your partner be a help rather than a hindrance in this really important way.

50:44Dr. Laurie Santos:Beautifully said. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So you're really telling your partner, I love you. I know you can be there for me. And if you would be there for me in this particular way, it would make me so happy.

51:00Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Have you all harnessed this kind of strategy for talking about your own unmet needs and your relationship? Are there any good examples? Yeah.

51:10Dr. Laurie Santos:I would say the books, probably. Probably, yeah. The books, right? Okay. So John is an avid book collector, which means probably once a week, we get seven books a week, maybe? Something like that. We're getting books all the time. We don't have bookshelf space for seven books a week because it added up. That's almost 30 books a month. Where are you going to put them? So they end up being on the stairs, in the front entryway, on the dining room table, on the kitchen island, you know, everywhere. On her side of the bed. On my side of the bed. And on his side of the bed, there's such a big pile that I risk breaking my neck to bend over the books to make the bed.

51:58Dr. Laurie Santos:So, you know, it's a danger to my life. And so what I have to do is, I know this is his personality and lifestyle preference, right? Very different than mine. Okay, so it doesn't make him a bad person, just makes him different than me, right? With just different priorities. And so I'll say, honey, would you please clean up the books? And he may pay attention or he may not. Week two, I'll say, sweetie, those books are becoming a danger to me. Would you please clean up the books? I'm afraid I'm going to trip on them going down the stairs. See, there's no criticism in there. Okay, week three, I'm going, honey, you know, the voice tone has changed.

52:49Dr. Laurie Santos:and I'm saying, honey, I'm at risk for breaking my neck and you don't want a dead wire, right? No, you don't. So please, please, please clean up the books. I beg you, this is a warning. So then I do it. And then he finally does it and the books are all cleaned away and then it starts to build again. So we have this conversation periodically, once a month, I'd say regularly. rate.

53:17Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:But it's good that you've been able to figure out a way to do it that's not, you know, attacking the person's personality. Like, why are you this kind of person who, you know, collects all these books? It's really doing it in a way that's expressing what your needs are and kind of giving a clear path to helping too, which I love. So.

53:33Dr. Laurie Santos:Right. You know, the other thing too that people forget, Lori, is that we have to be humble. We have to realize that, okay, we're asking our partner to be perfect, right? Are we perfect? No way. I drive John crazy with, would you please clean this up? Will you please clean it? I don't want to. I just want to sit and read my book. I'm driving him nuts with my need for tidiness, right? So he's tolerating that in me and being patient and eventually supportive, of putting away the books. So I'm no perfect icon either here. I can get grouchy. I can, you know, go a little nuts with all the books all over the place.

54:22Dr. Laurie Santos:He has to tolerate that, right? The same way I tolerate the difference in how he treats space. So, okay, I have to be humble about, you know, my flaws, my faults. And of course, you know, that message is throughout most of our religious texts, you know, whatever religion you're in, you know, look at yourself before you start criticizing your partner. So I really tried to hone that to a fine heart. You do a good job. Yeah.

54:54Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:As well as being wise, the Gottmans are just a super fun couple to hang out with. And so you'll be glad to hear that we've only just scratched the surface of the advice that they have to share. In the second part of our conversation, they'll let me in on some secrets for dealing with one of the most upsetting and destabilizing aspects of being in love, the inevitable disagreements.

55:14Dr. John Gottman:I turned the phone off, but it didn't. You didn't turn it off. I did, yeah. Uh-oh.

55:19Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Not seeing eye to eye with your partner is perfectly natural.

55:22Dr. Laurie Santos:I'm really sick and tired of the laundry being all over the floor.

55:26Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:Disagreements shouldn't be swept under the rug to fester, but they also shouldn't generate hostility either.

55:31Dr. Laurie Santos:I'm just sick and tired of this stupid, stupid laundry.

55:35Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:The good news, says the Gottmans, is that there is a way that we can all learn to argue better.

55:40Dr. Laurie Santos:The laundry's on the floor. I really don't like seeing it. Would you please clean it up before we have dinner? Yeah.

55:48Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman:That's coming up next time on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.

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