In short
The episode argues that winning the lottery (and other “dream” outcomes) often fails to produce lasting happiness because people mispredict emotional outcomes. It explains “impact bias” (missing key details and overestimating intensity/duration), “hedonic adaptation” (we return to baseline), and a “psychological immune system” that helps people rationalize and recover from bad events.
Guest backgrounds
Clay Cockrell is a clinical social worker and psychotherapist who works with the super-wealthy (the “1% of the 1%”), often doing “walk and talk” therapy in NYC. J.R. Martinez is a burn survivor and veteran who was seriously injured in the 2003 Iraq war; he later became an actor and public speaker.
Key claims
More money helps only up to a point; beyond that, happiness gains are tiny. The rich commonly face guilt, isolation, relationship distrust, and “golden handcuffs.” People adapt to both good and bad events faster than expected.
Notable examples
Billy Bob Harrell Jr. won a Texas lottery jackpot and later died by suicide; Raffaella (her herpes diagnosis) reframed it as a “gift” and later found a supportive boyfriend; J.R. Martinez survived a Humvee roadside bomb and later built a new life (acting, Dancing with the Stars, bestseller).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Curse of Winning the Lottery
0:45 to 0:56
Exploration of how winning the lottery can lead to unexpected unhappiness.
“They can offer support for pretty much all of life's major stresses.”
The Curse of Winning the Lottery
3:24 to 6:10
Exploration of how winning the lottery can lead to unexpected unhappiness.
“But that's okay, because as we'll learn in today's episode, happy endings are sort of overrated to begin with.”
The Myth of Money Equals Happiness
6:10 to 10:41
Discussion of how research shows income does not guarantee happiness beyond a certain point.
“Research shows that we suck at predicting what will make us happy generally.”
Updates on Money and Happiness Research
10:41 to 14:00
Recent updates on the relationship between income and happiness, including inflation adjustments.
“Your well-being just flatlines, even if you double or even quadruple your salary.”
The Illusion of Wealth and Happiness
14:00 to 18:12
Exploring the misconception that wealth directly correlates with happiness.
“This is about the same level of happiness boost that you could get by scribbling in a gratitude journal once a week.”
The Mystery of Happiness Predictions
18:12 to 24:17
Understanding our flawed predictions about happiness and emotional responses.
“That's a warning many of us have heard before.”
The Reality of Hedonic Adaptation
24:17 to 25:25
Discussing the concept of hedonic adaptation and its impact on happiness.
“They think happiness is a place that if they could get to it, they could build a house and live there their entire lives.”
The Reality of Hedonic Adaptation
25:32 to 26:27
Discussing the concept of hedonic adaptation and its impact on happiness.
“The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment.”
The Reality of Hedonic Adaptation
26:34 to 27:39
Discussing the concept of hedonic adaptation and its impact on happiness.
“That's quince.com slash happiness for free shipping and 365 day returns.”
The Importance of Everyday Choices
28:07 to 28:26
Explore how daily choices impact well-being more than major milestones.
“often more than the big flashy milestones.”
Show all 23 chapters
The Importance of Everyday Choices
28:52 to 29:22
Explore how daily choices impact well-being more than major milestones.
“If you want all of your data in one place, if you want a single home for all of your entities, if you want to spend more time working and less time searching, you need the Intuit ERP.”
Raffaella's Tinder Story
29:29 to 30:24
Listen to Raffaella recount her transformative experience of meeting someone special.
“Basically, I remember I was on Tinder because all these great stories start on Tinder.”
The Diagnosis: A Life-Changing Moment
30:24 to 31:08
Raffaella faces an unexpected diagnosis that alters her life dramatically.
“The next day, he sort of came down with what he thought was, like, a cold or something.”
Emotional Turmoil and Betrayal
31:08 to 31:54
Explore Raffaella's emotional struggles after her diagnosis and betrayal by a partner.
“Like, not only was I, like, physically uncomfortable, but how am I going to date someone?”
The Stigmatization of Herpes
31:54 to 32:54
Understand the stigma surrounding herpes and its effects on Raffaella's life.
“But then when I confided in her when I'm like sitting on my bed crying because I have all these itchy red bumps and, you know, the guy is ignoring me now, things changed.”
Finding a Gift in Adversity
32:54 to 33:12
Raffaella views her herpes diagnosis as a gift, providing her with valuable insights.
“She even wrote an article for Ravishly.com, which she titled, Getting Herpes Was a Gift.”
Raffaella's New Perspective on Relationships
33:12 to 33:58
Learn how Raffaella's experience has shaped her approach to dating and relationships.
“It's a gift because I'm more knowledgeable.”
Dan Gilbert's Insights on Adaptation
33:58 to 35:04
Discover research on how people adapt to negative events better than expected.
“Like, there are people that have much, much worse problems than little red bumps.”
The Psychological Immune System
35:04 to 36:28
Explore the concept of the psychological immune system and how it helps us cope.
“Our impact bias is even bigger when we make predictions about negative life circumstances because we're prone to overcome bad events more quickly than we think.”
Raffaella's Short-Lived Misery
36:28 to 37:28
Raffaella's deep but fleeting misery illustrates the resilience of the human psyche.
“is that the happiness we get from rationalizing a bad event is just as real as the happiness we get from something objectively good.”
The Power of the Psychological Immune System
37:28 to 38:42
Discussing how the psychological immune system can transform suffering into joy.
“of our psychological immune system, how it can transform the most terrible incidents a human can endure into a form of joy we'd never expect.”
J.R.'s Journey: From War to Resilience
42:01 to 48:26
Listen to J.R. share his harrowing experience in Iraq and his journey of recovery and self-discovery.
“absolutely correct and right in the sense of where two months later, I was on a plane with the rest of the unit heading over to the Middle East going to war.”
The Psychological Immune System
48:37 to 49:44
Explore the concept of hedonic adaptation and human resilience in the face of loss and tragedy.
“He's seen it time and again in his work on hedonic adaptation.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. I think a lot of us have that voice in our heads that tends to talk us out of therapy. Your voice might be saying, well, I'll deal with it later. Or it's probably going to be too expensive. Or where would I even start? But it doesn't have to be this way. And that's where RULA comes in. Getting help with RULA is easier than talking yourself out of things. First, let's take the cost. With RULA, sessions cost an average of$15 with insurance. Plus, Rula shows you your cost up front, so you're not caught guessing or worrying about some surprise bill later on.
0:35And with Rula, finding the right therapist is easy. That's one spot where a lot of people get stuck. But with Rula, you can find a therapist for your specific needs. In fact, Rula's providers specialize in over 90 conditions. They can offer support for pretty much all of life's major stresses. If you're ready to stop talking yourself out of finding care and making progress, then head to Rula.com. That's R-U-L-A dot com and take the first step. If you're always on the lookout for a great audiobook or just want help figuring out what to listen to next, there's a podcast you should know about. It's called Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, hosted by Cal Penn.
1:15Each episode takes a closer look at some of the most talked about new audiobooks on Audible, spanning a wide range of genres, from sci-fi and literary fiction to rom-coms, thrillers, and comedy. Cal is joined by guests who dig into what these stories are about, what makes them stand out as audiobooks, and why they're connecting with listeners right now. If you're looking for your next listen, this is a great place to start. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever considered how the smallest details can create real emotion?
1:51Lexis does, like the feeling associated with the sound of a turn signal or the touch of a button as it's pressed. At Lexus, master craftsmen called Takumi are involved not just in physical craftsmanship, but in sensory details. These masters evaluate things like how a door closes, the click of a switch, the acoustic feedback of controls. Because a car that doesn't make you feel something is a car that stops short of amazing. Experience amazing at your Lexus dealer. Toilets are one of those things that you don't really think about until you experience one that changes your expectations. That was my reaction to the Kohler Smart Toilet collection.
2:30The Kohler Vale Smart Toilet completely changed my expectations of what a modern bathroom can look and feel like. It's sleek and minimal in a way that makes the whole space feel more intentional. Design changes everything, and Kohler Smart Toilets are a really great example of that. Discover Kohler Smart Toilets at Kohler.com.
2:55Pushkin.
3:23tea a happy ending. But that's okay, because as we'll learn in today's episode, happy endings are sort of overrated to begin with. Here's this week's In Case You Missed It Happiness Hot Take. I hope you enjoy it.
3:38It was the worst thing that ever happened to me. These were the words uttered by Billy Bob Harrell Jr., a man whose life had been unremarkable before a fateful event that ruined everything on June 28, 1997. Before that worst-thing-ever event occurred, Billy Bob was a relatively happy middle-aged Texan. He was a religious family man who cared deeply about his parents, his wife Barbara Jean, and their three children. Billy Bob worked at the local Home Depot, stocking shelves with electrical equipment. It wasn't the most lucrative career, but Billy Bob and his wife found ways to make ends meet. His life, by all accounts, was relatively blessed.
4:22But one hot summer evening, everything changed. Within months, his marriage had fallen apart. His beloved Barbara Jean filed for divorce. Billy Bob tried dating a younger woman, but still felt terrible. He lost almost 50 pounds, making him look sickly and gaunt. His children would later say that his personality completely changed. He switched from the happy dad they knew into a moody depressive. In May of 1999, less than two years after that incident, which I've not yet named, Billy Bob couldn't take it anymore. He locked himself in his master bedroom and took his own life.
5:03So what was that worst thing ever occurrence? That awful event that destroyed Billy Bob's family and his entire life? It was this. Billy Bob won the Lotto Texas jackpot. Good evening, and welcome to the official Lotto Texas drawing. In a split second, he was$31 million richer. Now, that probably wasn't the kind of worst ever event you were imagining. When we think of tragedies, we imagine the death of a family member, some disfiguring car crash, or total financial ruin. What Billy Bob experienced is actually something many of us yearn for. He became a multi-millionaire overnight. he was suddenly rich beyond his wildest dreams, wealthy enough to quit his job and to buy whatever he and his family needed for the rest of their lives.
5:52But the wonderful fortune he literally prayed for certainly didn't make him as happy as he expected. I bet you think that wouldn't be the case for you. Most of us are convinced that making tons of money would feel good. But as it turns out, we're probably wrong. And not just about money. Research shows that we suck at predicting what will make us happy generally. Both when we're imagining how we'll feel when we get what we want, the good stuff like hitting the jackpot, getting the perfect job, being accepted to our dream school, but also when we envision some of the worst events a person could possibly endure.
6:31Why are we so bad at making these predictions? What's going wrong?
6:40Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, leading us away from what will really make us happy? The good news is that understanding the science of the mind can point us all back in the right direction. You're listening to The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos.
7:05If you have an enemy, go buy them a lottery ticket. Because on the off chance that they win, their life is going to be really messed up. I'm speaking with Clay Cockrell. He knows that the misery Billy Bob experienced after winning the lottery wasn't a one-off. Clay's a clinical social worker and psychotherapist. His business address is up near Columbus Circle in New York City. But more often than not, he can be found in Central Park or on the banks of the Hudson River. I do something unusual in that I walk with my clients instead of meeting in an office. Walk and talk. I think better on my feet.
7:42His methods as a psychotherapist are novel, but Clay also works with a rather particular clientele. About 10 years ago, I started working with the super wealthy, people in the 1 % of the 1%. Somehow my name got passed around this very small world as someone who doesn't bring judgment. So if you're struggling with, I can't find a place to park my yacht, I have no judgment about that. I'm going to help you. Your problem is as real as someone else's. Clay finds that providing counsel to the richest of the rich generates a certain amount of hostility from the other 99.99 % who think the mega wealthy have it pretty good.
8:26Being anxious about yacht parking doesn't play well with, well, with most people, honestly. The general public, when they find out what I do, they don't have a lot of sympathy because they bought into this idea that they have a certain amount of problems that are related to money. And they have this belief that if I have money, my problems will go away. But when they find out that there's somebody out there that has a lot of money and they still have problems, it busts that fantasy. So this thing that they're working toward, I just need a little bit more money is going to solve my problems. It really challenges that belief system.
9:01Clay's right that most people believe they just need a little bit more income for their troubles to end. One study asked people, how much money would you really need to be happy? What's an income level that if you got it, you wouldn't need any more? People who are currently earning$30 ,000 a year say they'd need$50 ,000 to be happier, which makes sense. But do folks who actually earn$50 ,000 think that was all that's needed? Not really. People earning twice that much,$100 ,000, said they'd need a salary of$250 ,000 to truly be happy. This myth, more money equals happiness. So I just got to get some more.
9:44I'll get there. I just got to get some more. We've all heard that money can't buy you happiness. But is that really true? Two Nobel Prize-winning scientists, Danny Kahneman and Angus Deaton, teamed up to find out. They tested how annual salary in the U.S. today affects three different measures of well-being. What did they find? Well, it turns out that income does affect well-being for people at lower salary levels. If you earn$10 ,000 or$20 ,000, then earning more will make you feel less stressed and happier. But that effect of income on well-being starts to level off, and it does so really quickly.
10:22Based on their estimate... It is much better to earn$70 ,000 than$40 ,000. Life is a lot different, but it's not a lot different from$70 ,000 to$150 ,000 or$250 ,000. Kahneman and Deaton found that once you're earning an annual income of$75 ,000, getting more doesn't help. You don't get less stressed or happier. Your well-being just flatlines, even if you double or even quadruple your salary. That's what the data suggest. But it's definitely not what most of us believe. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. This is Dr. Laurie Santos in 2026, coming to you live with an important research update. Back when we recorded this episode in 2019, the study I just described was the final word when it came to money and happiness.
11:10But as you probably know, science isn't stagnant. And in the years since we recorded this episode, there's been a few important updates. So I couldn't help but time travel in from the future to tell you about them. Update number one is, drumroll, inflation. That$75 ,000 cutoff I mentioned, that was in 2010 dollars. Adjusting for inflation, the same cutoff in 2026 dollars would be more like$115 ,000-ish. Update number two is that there have been a few new papers on this connection between money and happiness. The first is a 2021 paper by Matt Killingsworth, which used a new and improved measure of people's well-being, one in which people were pinged at different times during the day and asked about their happiness in the moment.
11:54This new method prevents people from forgetting how they actually felt at different times, which is just better for answering how money really makes people feel. What did Killingsworth find? Well, first, his results showed the same thing that that Kahneman and Deaton study found before. People at incomes lower than$75 ,000 would definitely be happier if they got more money. But Killingsworth's new study also showed that there continues to be a connection between money and happiness, even at higher incomes. But the effect he found is really, really tiny. Ergo, more money after a certain level might make you a tiny bit happier, but definitely not as happy as you think.
12:30But more recently, in 2023, there was an even cooler paper that tested the same question. And that paper involved a tag team between Matt Killingsworth, the researcher I just mentioned who did the 2021 paper, and Danny Kahneman, the guy who did the original paper that Killingsworth had kind of shown was wrong. In research, this is what's known as an adversarial collaboration. Two people who disagree about a set of findings agree to come together to do one final paper that's going to resolve the disagreement for good. And that's what Kahneman and Killingsworth did. They went back to Kahneman's original data and broke it down by happy and not-so-happy people.
13:08And what they found is pretty cool. All people at lower levels of income get happier as their income rises. But after a certain level, that slope looks different for happy and not-so-happy people. For not-so-happy people, more money after$100 ,000 has no effect on your happiness. But if you're already happy, then getting more money after$100 ,000 actually seems to make you a tiny bit happier. But even for these already-happy people, the size of that effect is still really, really tiny. So what should we conclude from this new work? Well, if you're not so happy, then getting more money after$100 ,000 is probably not going to help.
13:46If you're already pretty happy, then getting lots more money might make you a teeny, teeny, tiny bit happier. And the emphasis should be on the teeny, teeny, tiny part. Because even quadrupling your income, the best you'll get is about five points on a 100-point happiness scale. This is about the same level of happiness boost that you could get by scribbling in a gratitude journal once a week. or exercising an extra 20 minutes. It's a super small effect for something as huge as quadrupling your income. So, does more money really make us happier? After a certain income level, the answer seems to be, not really.
14:21And definitely not as much as we think. Okay, enough nerding out about new science. Back to our originally scheduled episode. When I first got out of grad school, I made$14 ,000 a year. And I was, wow, this is amazing. So you begin to think, okay, there's a correlation here. More money equals a better life. And that keeps working until you get to around$75 ,000,$80 ,000 and your basic needs are met. But you've learned a lesson. More money incrementally is going to make you happier and your life easier. But you start getting more and more money and more and more money. And it's not working like it used to when I went from 14 to 35.
14:59I just need to work a little harder and get up to 250. Our intuition that more money equals more happiness means we don't realize the host of problems that come with being incredibly rich. But Clay has seen these problems firsthand in his many clients. They struggle. They're not sleeping at night. They don't have good relationships. One of the most common problems Clay sees is guilt. The wealthy also buy into the idea that money brings happiness. That cognitive dissonance of being so rich yet so sad can pitch them into emotional turmoil. My life isn't perfect, but it should be. I shouldn't complain.
15:34I shouldn't seek psychotherapy to help me deal with my problems because I really shouldn't have them. And like Billy Bob Harrell after hitting the jackpot, the rich often struggle in their close relations. It's hard to trust because they've been burned a lot, particularly in romantic relationships. And then you get into prenuptial agreements and are you only getting into this relationship because I'm going to buy you nice things. Even casual friendships can be hard to maintain. They call it the 1 % for a reason. There's not a lot of people out there that have this kind of money. So a majority of the population, on a fundamental level, you're not going to be able to relate to.
16:14There's a lot of isolation. Are you being my friend because of my bank account? If we go out to lunch, am I just expected to pick up the tab? When you're talking about your weekend, I had this one client that got to be friends at the local gym. And that weekend, he just happened to have taken his private jet to Paris to try out this new restaurant. So how do you talk about that without it feel like you're rubbing your wealth in someone's face? But the biggest problem Clay sees is that the rich feel trapped. For most problems we encounter in life, there are painful but culturally acceptable solutions.
16:51If you're in a bad relationship, you can pack your bags and leave. You hate your job, so quit. But if you're loaded and miserable about it... You're not going to give it away. You're too attached to it. It gives too much freedom. So you're trapped, the golden handcuffs. So I have a lot of people who say, I can't get rid of it because it's amazing, it's great. But God, there's so much unhappiness and isolation and guilt that comes along with having this. Ironically, the rich then fall prey to the same bias we do. Maybe the problem isn't the money. Maybe it's just that they need a little bit more.
17:27I've worked with people who've had$50 million, and they say, yeah, but I really, I can't do everything that I want. There's this wonderful painting that would really eat into my savings. This one guy had$500 million, but had a sense that once I hit that billion, and that's when things really change. And you think, that's crazy. You have more money than you could possibly spend. But they're searching for happiness and people don't believe me. And I understand. It was hard for me to think that. But after living in this world, working with these people, I understand money is not going to buy you happiness.
18:12So be careful what you wish for. Be careful what you wish for. That's a warning many of us have heard before. But it fits with a growing body of research showing that nearly every amazing thing in life, from tons of money to an amazing house to the perfect grades, those things simply won't make us as happy as we predict they will. Almost all of us believe that we would be happy if we could just get what we want, and the only impediment to our happiness is that we can't always get what we want. This is Dan Gilbert. He wrote one of my favorite books on human psychology. It's called Stumbling on Happiness.
18:48It turns out that when people get exactly what they want, they're not always happy. When they get the opposite of what they wanted, they often are. That's a little bit of a mystery. It's the kind of mystery that attracts psychologists. This puzzle, as Dan's research over the last two decades has shown, stems from one of our most exceptional cognitive faculties, our unique ability to run mental simulations of the future. This is a brand new faculty that is wired into the human brain. No other animal can do anything vaguely like it. No chimpanzee has ever thought about whether it's going to look good in a bathing suit when it retires.
19:23But these brand new abilities are still in beta testing. In a sense, we have an ability you might call prospection 1.0. And it's still being worked on. So it's got bugs. One of the bugs in Prospection 1.0, that ability we have to plan for the future, is that your brain can't simulate all the parts of a given event. When you're imagining things unfolding over time, you can't imagine them unfolding in real time, can you? If you could, then somebody would say, imagine moving to Chicago, and you'd have to spend four months imagining moving to Chicago because that's how long it actually takes. So one of the wonderful things about simulation is that it gives you a quick sketch and then it runs it at hyperspeed.
20:02But that's also one of its flaws, because a quick sketch often lacks important details, and when things run at hyperspeed, they run right over the details that often matter. We miss the critical details of almost any good event we try to simulate. But let's look in more detail at the example we started with earlier, getting rich beyond our wildest dreams. What kinds of details do, say, lottery players miss when they think about winning all that cash? If you close your eyes and imagine winning the lottery, most of us imagine ourselves in a bathtub full of money or on a yacht or quitting our job, buying a big house, all the things we can get with money.
20:39You're not thinking about all the things you're going to lose. It's very unlikely you're going to continue all the same social relationships you have with people who need money but don't have any. You're underestimating the number of people and relatives that will come out of the woodwork begging you to help them over and over. You'll fail to realize that the social groups to which you would now like to belong don't want to have anything to do with you because you got your money the wrong way. On and on and on. None of that is in our mental simulation of the future. Dan has shown there's a nasty consequence to missing these important details.
21:12It means our emotional predictions of how these events will feel are way off track. Would you rather have a weekend in Paris or gum surgery? It's kind of a one-item IQ test, and almost everybody gets that right. What they don't realize is that the weekend in Paris won't be as good as they think it will be, and the good feelings won't last as long as they expect. The same is true, thankfully, for the gum surgery. These tumorous predictions, being wrong about how intense an event will feel and how long we'll feel that way, is what Dan has christened impact bias. In one famous study, he asked young professors at the University of Texas to forecast how they'd feel when they got tenure, that permanent position that all new faculty crave.
21:55Dan tested people's predictions using a seven-point happiness scale. Most professors thought they'd be really happy if they got tenure, around a six out of seven on that scale. But how did professors actually feel when they heard good news? They reported only being a five out of seven. Dan also tested what happened to professors who got bad news, the ones who found out they didn't get tenure. They assumed they'd be a 3.4 out of 7 on that happiness scale. But in reality, actual professors who got denied tenure were only a 4.7 on average. They felt a whole point better than anyone expected. I see a similar misprediction all the time in my college students.
22:36At Yale, students are convinced they'll be ecstatic if they get a good grade and are sure they'll feel devastated if they do badly. Psychologists have now seen this same pattern in many walks of life. Lovers predict they'll take a long time to recover from a sad breakup, but bounce back far quicker. Student drivers believe they'll be devastated if they fail to get their license, but aren't as sad walking out of the DMV empty-handed as they think. Same is true for job applicants who are passed over, and even patients guessing how they'll feel about a positive or negative HIV diagnosis. Put simply, The good things won't be as good, the bad things won't be as bad as your mind leads you to believe.
23:18Dan has shown that this pattern stems from yet another way our minds lie to us. We don't notice that we have a tendency to get used to stuff. Even when something feels amazing at first, we can't enjoy it forever. This is a phenomenon that psychologists call hedonic adaptation. You can't be really, really happy endlessly all the time or your emotional system isn't doing its job. It has to come back to baseline so it can once again guide you to the next good thing that you as an organism ought to be doing. Hedonic adaptation means that after a while, we tend to go back to a baseline level of emotional satisfaction.
23:56My students are happy for a while after getting a perfect grid, but after a day or so, they just go back to their usual set point level of happiness. The good and bad events don't move us up or down for as long as we think. So it's just a hard and fast truth that you can't stay at 10 forever and ever and ever. People mistakenly think they can. They think happiness is a place that if they could get to it, they could build a house and live there their entire lives. It's only a vacation destination. It's a place you can visit more and more often if you do the right things. And you can stay longer and longer, but you can't stay forever.
Read the full transcript
24:32This is an important thing to know because people often feel that if their happiness has come back to baseline after something wonderful has happened, something's wrong. Why didn't this marriage, this child, this promotion give me the eternal happiness I was seeking? Because there is no such thing as eternal happiness. So happily ever after is just not psychologically realizable. Happily ever after is only true if you have three minutes to live. But this process also has an important upside. we get used to all the bad stuff, too. That horrible breakup, the chronic illness, that worse job with the lower salary.
25:09As we hedonically adapt to these things, they gradually start to distress us less and less. The problem is, we don't realize it. Despite the fact that two months prior, I was sitting in my bed crying my eyes out, wishing I would die, it just shows that life goes on. It's not the end of the world. The Happiness Lab will be back in a moment. The best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on repeat. For me, that means clothes that feel comfortable, versatile, and somehow look right for every occasion. That's why I love quince. They make elevated essentials using premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, and washable silk, without the traditional retail markup.
25:57This summer, I've been obsessed with Quince's washable stretch silk tiered maxi dress. It's made of silk with just enough stretch to actually move with you. It looks just as perfect at a posh summer dinner party as it does on a beach walk. Plus, it has pockets, which I love. But that's just the beginning. Quince has denim that's broken in and soft, and their 14-karat gold jewelry, think hoops and delicate chains, are the kind of finishing touches that make a five-minute outfit look completely intentional. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.com slash happiness for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
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27:13With those planters in place, my outdoor patio just works. And I gotta give Wayfair credit here, because I couldn't find the planters I needed anywhere else. They had to be a specific size to fit the patio space, they had to be lightweight, and Wayfair had exactly what I needed. If you've been putting off sprucing up your home because you're not sure you'll find exactly what you need, then my advice is to try Wayfair, like I did. Ready to upgrade your home for way less? Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home.
27:50Life has a funny way of changing when we're not even looking. One day your routine feels set, and the next something shifts. A new job, a move, or maybe just a quiet realization that what used to work doesn't quite fit anymore. On this show, we talk a lot about how the little things in our daily lives shape our well-being, often more than the big flashy milestones. And that includes what we drive. Because when something you use every single day feels aligned with your life, it removes friction. It makes ordinary moments smoother, less stressful. That's where Cars.com comes in. They have over 2 million new and used cars and powerful filters that let you narrow your search by price, mileage, features, whatever actually matters to you.
28:38And their deal badges highlight when a listing is a great price, so you can feel confident you're making a smart choice. It's not just about buying a car. It's about choosing something that truly fits your routine and your next chapter. Start your search at cars.com. Where to next? If you want all of your data in one place, if you want a single home for all of your entities, if you want to spend more time working and less time searching, you need the Intuit ERP. I know because I'm Damon John and I run my growing business on Intuit Enterprise Suite, the AI native ERP that's powerful, painless and proven.
29:22Learn more at Intuit.com slash ERP. Basically, I remember I was on Tinder because all these great stories start on Tinder. Raffaella Guns is telling me how she met the man of her dreams. He's a super beautiful, beautiful guy. Blue eyes, full lips. And how he changed her life forever. I really liked him. I was so into him. After chatting with him for a while on Tinder, Raffaella agreed to a first date. Something really low-key. The couple just walked around, getting to know each other. They didn't even kiss. But things picked up after that. We were hanging out for hours and hours, and we decided to go back up to my neighborhood.
30:08so we could sit by the river, by the Hudson River, because it's, like, super pretty to just watch the sunset over there. And we ended up having sex. And I thought I did everything right. Like, I carried condoms around. In my mind, I was doing everything right. But Raffaella was about to hear the sort of news that nobody wants to hear. The next day, he sort of came down with what he thought was, like, a cold or something. He had, like, a sore throat, and he was feeling very fatigued. And then a couple days later, I started coming out on the same thing. Her beautiful boy with the blue eyes was the first to seek medical advice.
30:46He sent a text. I went to the doctor, and they think all this might be a sign of herpes. And so, like, that was a weird text message. So I go into Urgent Kit crying, and I'm like, I need a herpes test. Raffaella got her official diagnosis soon after. Those first few days, I remember I was just sitting in bed crying. You know, I, like, thought my life was over. I wanted to die. It was the worst thing in the world. Like, not only was I, like, physically uncomfortable, but how am I going to date someone? How's anyone going to love me? In addition to being in physical pain with red bumps on her genitals, she was also in emotional pain.
31:20Her dream guy dropped her in a flash. Yeah, he was like, oh, this changed my vibe on you. He was, like, very, very distant. I thought, like, okay, we both have this thing. Like, we can go through it together and sort of, like, learn about it together and figure this out together. but he was very much sort of like in it for himself. I felt sort of, I don't know if betrayed is the right word, but that's the word that's coming to my mind. Rafaela didn't only feel betrayed by the man who gave her herpes and disappeared. Her diagnosis also freaked out the people closest to her. She was like one of my oldest friends.
31:55But then when I confided in her when I'm like sitting on my bed crying because I have all these itchy red bumps and, you know, the guy is ignoring me now, things changed. She was like, I just think, you know, it would be better for my own sanity if you used toilet seat covers when you were here. And, you know, if you use hand sanitizer a lot and this and that. So that was really hurtful. I mean, this was one of your oldest friends. Yeah. This was someone I've known since we were in diapers. And she's not supporting you for one of, it sounds like one of the most scary times in my life. Yeah. That just sounds awful.
32:29So that was horrible. let's take a second to predict how you would feel in Raffaella's situation. You contracted an incurable and highly stigmatized disease. Your romantic partner has ditched you, and some of your oldest friends are shunning you because of what happened. Would you describe all of this overall as a good thing? As a positive change in your life? As a present from the universe? Because that's how Raffaella sees it. She even wrote an article for Ravishly.com, which she titled, Getting Herpes Was a Gift. Some people were like, what the f**k? Like, how is this a gift? Like, almost angry and like calling me like delusional, all these sorts of things.
33:10Like, how would you possibly think that's a gift? So why is it a gift? It's a gift because I'm more knowledgeable. It's a gift because I've been able to write things like that article that helps people. Raffaella says all the fallout from her diagnosis has given her insight into the people who really matter. It's a strong litmus test for those who are actually going to be there for her. If a friend can't accept all of you, warts and all, pun intended, they're not really your friend. They're fair weather friends, you know? But it also gave Raffaella a new filter for her dating life. it saved her time figuring out which guys were worth her time and which guys just didn't get it he said some dumb shit about oh am i gonna get it if i kiss you and i'm like no it's on my vagina do you think you know would you change anything would you do it i mean it sounds like you learned so much from this like would you keep it would you do it over again i'd keep it first of all as much of a dick as he was he was really hot really hot and the sex was really good so i don't regret that secondly it it helped me in my dating life I feel a few months after I was diagnosed I met my current boyfriend who we've been together for like three years and I told him right away and he was fine with it um so that was nice to know that's like especially when you're when you can track something like herpes you tend to think like all my life's over no one's ever gonna want to sleep with me again no one's ever gonna want to date me again I'm never gonna get married this But it was fine.
34:40Like, there are people that have much, much worse problems than little red bumps. Getting herpes was much, much better than Raphael and May have predicted. And that kind of adaptation to adversity is something Dan Gilbert has found over and over again. What we find consistently is that in the face of negative events, people don't feel as bad as they themselves expected to. Although we're pretty bad at predicting how we'll feel after a good event, like winning the lottery, Dan has observed we're worse at predicting how we'll feel after a bad event, losing a friend, failing to get a job, or even getting herpes.
35:18Our impact bias is even bigger when we make predictions about negative life circumstances because we're prone to overcome bad events more quickly than we think. One of the things we fail to do when we mentally simulate is we fail to consider adaptation. We are a remarkably adaptive animal. We have been born and bred to pick ourselves up by the bootstraps and soldier on. When the going gets tough, we get going. Dan calls this capacity to overcome adversity our psychological immune system. Just as our physical immune system kicks in when we get sick, our psychological immune system turns on when we're in mental distress.
35:56And our psychological immune system works really, really well. As soon as we start to feel bad, our mind deploys a whole host of mental defenses. If you've ever had a friend experience a breakup, you know at first they're really unhappy, and then pretty quickly they get around to rationalizing. Oh, she was never really right for me. This is really a chance for me to start my life over. I don't think we had that much in common in the first place. She didn't like my mother. When you mentally simulate a breakup, you mentally simulate the anguish. but you never mentally simulate the rationalizations.
36:27What's amazing about all those rationalizations, though, is that the happiness we get from rationalizing a bad event is just as real as the happiness we get from something objectively good. Well, there's no doubt that when people rationalize, everybody around them feels that they found some sort of phony and substandard form of happiness. I don't believe that for a minute. You know, the happiness you get when the person you love says yes to the marriage proposal isn't qualitatively different than the kind you produce for yourself when she says no. There's absolutely no data that I know of to suggest that it's an inferior form of happiness, and indeed, in some cases, it can be more long-lasting.
37:08Raffaella's misery about contracting herpes was very deep and very real. But her misery was also short-lived. But what about situations that are so horrible, there's no way a person can carry on normally? What about events so profound and so awful? that they'd change our lives forever. After the break, we'll hear about the true power of our psychological immune system, how it can transform the most terrible incidents a human can endure into a form of joy we'd never expect. 19 years old, I'm in this Humvee. I'm thinking I'm going to die. It felt good to just kind of just close my eyes and just kind of let it happen.
37:47The Happiness Lab will return in a moment. The best summer pieces are the ones you end up wearing on repeat. For me, that means clothes that feel comfortable, versatile, and somehow look right for every occasion. That's why I love Quince. They make elevated essentials using premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, and washable silk, without the traditional retail markup. This summer, I've been obsessed with Quince's washable stretch silk tiered maxi dress. It's made of silk with just enough stretch to actually move with you. It looks just as perfect at a posh summer dinner party as it does on a beach walk.
38:25Plus, it has pockets, which I love. But that's just the beginning. Quince has denim that's broken in and soft, and their 14-karat gold jewelry, think hoops and delicate chains, are the kind of finishing touches that make a five-minute outfit look completely intentional. Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.com slash happiness for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash happiness for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince dot com slash happiness. Life has a funny way of changing when we're not even looking.
39:03One day your routine feels set and the next something shifts. A new job, a move, or maybe just a quiet realization that what used to work doesn't quite fit anymore. On this show, we talk a lot about how the little things in our daily lives shape our well-being, often more than the big, flashy milestones. And that includes what we drive. Because when something you use every single day feels aligned with your life, it removes friction. It makes ordinary moments smoother, less stressful. That's where Cars.com comes in. They have over 2 million new and used cars and powerful filters that let you narrow your search by price, mileage, features, whatever actually matters to you.
39:47And their deal badges highlight when a listing is a great price, so you can feel confident you're making a smart choice. It's not just about buying a car. It's about choosing something that truly fits your routine and your next chapter. Start your search at cars.com. Where to next? If your finance team spends more time finding data than using it, if there's one entity here and one here and one here and one here, if scaling your business feels like starting over, you need the Intuit ERP. Intuit Enterprise Suite is the AI native ERP solution that's powerful, painless, and proven. Learn more at intuit.com slash ERP.
40:29If you're always on the lookout for a great audiobook or just want help figuring out what to listen to next, there's a podcast you should know about. It's called Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, hosted by Cal Penn. Each episode takes a closer look at some of the most talked about new audiobooks on Audible, spanning a wide range of genres, from sci-fi and literary fiction to rom-coms, thrillers, and comedy. Cal is joined by guests who dig into what these stories are about, what makes them stand out as audiobooks, and why they're connecting with listeners right now. If you're looking for your next listen, this is a great place to start.
41:07Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I joined as an infantryman because I wanted to, I wanted to be in the action. J.R. Martinez had just finished high school in a small town in the south, the only son of a single mother from El Salvador. After graduation, he decided to enlist in the army. It was just after 9-11, and he had a few predictions about how things would go. You know, my thought process was three years. I would be in it. I would give back to this country. It would give me an opportunity to travel, to get more discipline.
41:44It would give me an opportunity to get money for college. And I remember one of my sergeants, you know, one day sitting down and talking to me and telling me that I needed to be prepared because we were going to be deploying sometime soon. And my response to him was, I'm not going anywhere yet. I just got out of basic training. Very naive of me, and he was absolutely correct and right in the sense of where two months later, I was on a plane with the rest of the unit heading over to the Middle East going to war. JR was part of the initial invasion of Iraq in 2003. It was already a tough transition for a 19-year-old, and within weeks, tragedy struck.
42:20Here we were, you know, a few days shy of a month of being in Iraq and escorting the convoy through a city car, Carballah, when the front left tire of the Humvee that I was driving ran over a roadside bomb. The blast ripped through the entire truck and everything it was carrying. The ammo, spare fuel, and other explosives. It was a fireball. There was three other soldiers in the vehicle with me. They all got thrown out of the vehicle, but I was trapped inside. And within a matter of seconds, this Humvee was engulfed in flames and I was completely conscious. J.R. was pinned inside the burning truck for several minutes.
42:53He described screaming as he watched the skin on his hands melting. Eventually, he was pulled from the vehicle, but the damage was done. In addition to broken ribs and a lacerated liver, he had third-degree burns over his entire body, and he'd been gulping flames into his lungs through the whole ordeal. He was immediately medevaced, first to Europe and then to the U.S. Army Burn Center in San Antonio, Texas. I remember coming out of my medically induced coma three weeks later and my doctor essentially just kind of laying out all the cards and saying, this is the circumstance. You can't feed yourself.
43:32You can't walk. You can't sit up. You can't go to the bathroom by yourself. They also told me that I would no longer be able to remain in the United States Army, which was incredibly difficult and challenging. When this happened, you were 19 and you spent like the next three years. I turned 20, 21, 22 in the hospital. That's amazing. Yeah. Just to be clear, how much just to get a surgery? 34 % of my body was burned and majority of that was third degree. So it consisted of, for the listeners that can't see me, it consisted of my head, my face, my arms, my hands, portion of my back, portion of my legs.
44:04There's no way to really fully describe the pain unless you've been through it. But what's incredible about being a burn survivor, a burn patient at the time, is that the part of your body that isn't burned still hurts because they usually use the areas of your body that are not scarred as skin to do skin grafts. And usually a donor site is more painful than the actual injury itself. But JR's physical pain was nothing compared to his emotional anguish. When he enlisted, he'd been something of a local heartthrob. You know, it's funny because growing up, I always heard, you know, from like my mom's friends, you know, all these women, you know, would say, oh my God, he's so cute.
44:41He's so this, he's so that. And so I grew up just thinking like, that's what I am. I'm, you know, no one ever said he has an amazing personality. He's funny. He's, he's whatever, articulate, nothing. It was cute. And so suddenly I look at myself and I'm like, that's not cute. What I see in the mirror, that's not. And that person that I see, I do not recognize. I have no relationship with that individual, the old J.R. had died. And as you can imagine, I fell into a deep, dark place of, I was depressed, I was angry, I was resentful, I was a victim in every sense of the word. Deep burns and thick scars over his entire body, dozens of surgeries and years of his young life wasted in the hospital, plus the permanent loss of his good looks and his military career.
45:32Those are some of the most profound and tragic events a person can endure. But how does JR think about all these awful events today? I can tell you right now that what happened to me is a blessing. That's right, as a blessing. Considering the fact that I was trapped inside of a burning truck for five minutes, I'm fortunate to only have what I have. I have a lot of friends and I know a lot of people that unfortunately have missing limbs or, you know, have are more scarred, you know, or disfigured, you know, so in that sense, I'm incredibly fortunate. It's so cool to hear you say that you're incredibly fortunate.
46:07Because again, I think people who just heard the story, you know, guys, Humvee explodes, he spends, you know, a decent chunk of his 20s in the hospital having major, major surgeries, lives with scars for the rest of his life. And then you're saying, I'm fortunate, like, I'm the lucky one. Yeah, well, I am. Because, you know, I think about how I'm blessed to have a second chance at life. I don't want to take this second chance for granted. And J.R. did take every opportunity that came his way. Being a badly injured vet opened doors that J.R. never dreamed of. He became a mentor for other burn victims, which led to a few lucrative speaking gigs.
46:43Telling his story so openly built up J.R.'s confidence. So much so that when a friend casually mentioned that J.R. should try out for an acting job, he decided to go for it. I became an actor on a soap opera, All My Children, and that led Dancing with the Stars to ask me to be on the show, and then I acted in some other shows after that, and I wrote a book about my life and my mother's life and my family's life, and it became a New York Times bestseller. I mean, People Magazine put me on a cover. Because of these scars, I have this incredible ability to get people's attention. The 15 seconds of curiosity, right?
47:21Like, who is that? What happened to him? Those 15 seconds of curiosity that people have, it's my job, mine, to take that 15 seconds and turn it into 30 seconds, into 45, into 60 seconds, into 5 minutes, 10 minutes, a lifetime of actual educated dialogue. This is who I am. Everything I thought I wanted in life, you know, I wanted to be a professional football player and have fame and have all this money and be able to do all these things. If I would have accomplished those things, would I be as happy as I am now? Would you change anything? Would you do it over differently? No, I wouldn't change anything.
48:01I 100 % mean that. But you wouldn't change the explosion, the scars, the surgery. You'd keep all of that. Yeah. Yeah. Because the life I have, I mean, the beautiful wife and the beautiful daughter and the beautiful life that I've created for myself. I mean, gosh, I mean, I'm blessed.
48:27With bad events, we often don't realize that some good can come out of them. Dan Gilbert is unsurprised that people like JR see more positive than negatives, even in the worst of circumstances. He's seen it time and again in his work on hedonic adaptation. Startlingly, if you ask people who've lost a child, which is the single worst event that people can imagine experiencing, and indeed it is one of the worst events people can actually experience, if you ask people who've lost a child, they never say, gee, I'm glad that happened. But if you ask them to name the good and the bad things that have come from it, they tend to name more good than bad things.
49:05Now, that's a very stunning fact. That we should just sit back and marvel at the possibility that the worst thing in the world could happen to us and probably more good than bad will come out of it. There are awful events that will cause you to feel pain and hurt and loss. But we're fighters. When push comes to shove, we're really resilient. The problem is, we don't realize that. I think if you understand the power of the psychological immune system, our remarkable ability to rationalize in the face of adversity, it makes you braver. You realize that you will make the stakes and it will be okay.
49:44I think there's a lesson there for all of us.
49:52After making this episode, I've become even more convinced about that lesson. Hedonic adaptation means the lows of life aren't going to be as awful as you imagine, just as the highs will be more temporary than you hope. As a psychologist, I already knew that winning the lottery and other great circumstances don't bring lasting happiness. But honestly, I often forget about the flip side. So I'm going to make a conscious effort to be a bit braver, to stop worrying so much, to remember that I have a kind of emotional superpower, one that can get me through the worst of circumstances. And I hope you'll do the same, because even though your mind might tell you otherwise, joy doesn't come from everything in life working out perfectly.
50:35It comes from adopting better habits and better behaviors. All strategies we'll be discussing in coming episodes of The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.
51:13Transcription by CastingWords The Happiness Lab is co-written and produced by Ryan Dilley. The show is mixed and mastered by Evan Viola and edited by Julia Barton. Fact-checking by Joseph Fridman. And our original music was composed by Zachary Silver. Special thanks to Mia LaBelle, Carly Migliore, Heather Fane, Maggie Taylor, Maya Koenig, and Jacob Weisberg. The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and me, Dr. Laurie Santos.
51:50If you're always on the lookout for a great audiobook, or just want help figuring out what to listen to next, there's a podcast you should know about. It's called Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, hosted by Cal Penn. Each episode takes a closer look at some of the most talked about new audiobooks on Audible, spanning a wide range of genres, from sci-fi and literary fiction to rom-coms, thrillers, and comedy. Cal is joined by guests who dig into what these stories are about, what makes them stand out as audiobooks, and why they're connecting with listeners right now. If you're looking for your next listen, this is a great place to start.
52:29Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Toilets are one of those things that you don't really think about until you experience one that changes your expectations. That was my reaction to the Kohler Smart Toilet Collection. The Kohlerville Smart Toilet completely changed my expectations of what a modern bathroom can look and feel like. It's sleek and minimal in a way that makes the whole space feel more intentional. Design changes everything, and Kohler Smart Toilets are a really great example of that. Discover Kohler Smart Toilets at Kohler.com.
53:06Whatever your goal, trade show giveaways, client gifts, or team gear, 4imprint has the promo products to match. With thousands of options, from apparel to drinkware to tech and totes, it's easy to find the right fit for your brand and budget, with standout choices at every price point. And with their 360-degree guarantee, you can be 4imprint certain your order will show up just right, right on time. Explore more at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. The Happiness Lab is proudly sponsored by Amika Insurance. When it comes to taking care of their customers, Amica goes the extra mile. From listening to your insurance needs to following up after a claim, Amica provides coverage with empathy.
53:49Because as a mutual insurer, Amica is built for its customers and prioritizes you. It's the way insurance should be. Amica, we're your priority number one. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
From the publisher
What would it take to make you happier? A raise? A promotion? Getting into your dream school? Winning the lottery? It turns out that we’re surprisingly bad at predicting how these events will actually make us feel. When they do make us happier, research shows that the highs won’t last as long as we expect. The good news is that the lows won't last as long as we expect either. We're just as bad at predicting how life's setbacks will affect us.
Dr. Laurie speaks with Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert about why our minds exaggerate the emotional impact of life’s biggest events. She also hears from psychotherapist Clay Cockrell about why extreme wealth often comes with misery, and from writer Rafaella Gunz and Army veteran J.R. Martinez about their journeys toward happiness and meaning after experiences they once thought would ruin their lives.
Experts Mentioned:
- Daniel Gilbert, Professor of Psychology at Harvard University
- Clay Cockrell, Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Psychotherapist
- Daniel Kahneman, Professor of Psychology, Emeritus, and Professor of Psychology and Public Affairs, Emeritus at Princeton University
- Angus Deaton, Professor of International Affairs, Emeritus, and Professor of Economics and International Affairs, Emeritus at Princeton University
- Matthew Killingsworth, Senior Fellow at The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania
- Rafaella Gunz, writer and social worker
- J.R. Martinez, Army veteran, actor, author, and podcast host
Resources Mentioned:
- “Billie Bob’s (Mis) Fortune,” by Steve McViker (Houston Press, 2000)
- “The How of Happiness: A New Approach to Getting the Life You Want,” by Sonja Lyubomirsky (2007)
- “High income improves evaluation of life but not emotional well-being,” by Daniel Kahneman and Angus Deaton (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2010)
- “Experienced well-being rises with income, even above $75,000 per year,” by Matthew Killingsworth (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2023)
- “Income and emotional well-being: a conflict resolved,” by Matthew Killingsworth, Daniel Kahneman, and Barbara Mellers (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 2023)
- Stumbling on Happiness, by Daniel Gilbert (2006)
- “Immune neglect: a source of durability bias in affective forecasting,” by Daniel Gilbert, Elizabeth Pinel, Timothy Wilson, Stephen Blumberg, and Thalia Wheatley (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 1998)
- “Affective forecasting: Why can't people predict their emotions?,” by Peter Ayton, Alice Pott, and Najat Elwakili (Thinking & Reasoning, 2007)
- “Anticipated versus actual reaction to HIV test results,” by Elaine Sieff, Robyn Dawes, and George Lowenstein (The American Journal of Psychology, 1999)
- Well-Being: Foundations of Hedonic Psychology, by Daniel Kahneman, Edward Diener, and Norbert Schwartz (1999)
- “Getting Herpes Was a Gift,” by Rafaella Gunz (Ravishly, 2016)
- “The impact bias is alive and well,” by Timothy Wilson and Daniel Gilbert (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2013)
- Full of Heart: My Story of Survival, Strength, and Spirit, by J.R. Martinez with Alexandra Rockey Fleming (2012)
Related Episodes:
- “Why We Sabotage Our Future Selves”
- “Why the ‘Good Enough’ Relationship Beats the ‘Perfect Partner’”
- “Working Your Way to Happiness”
- “Why Nostalgia Ain’t So Rosy”
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