#429 How Microsoft is Powering the AI Era in Healthcare: Jacob West from Microsoft UK

0:00Welcome to the Health Tech Podcast. Here we talk about everything healthcare and technology. and I'm your host, James Summery. Hey everybody, this week I am joined by Jacob West, the Managing Director for Healthcare and Life Sciences at Microsoft UK. Jacob, absolute pleasure to have you on. How are you doing? I'm great, James. Thanks for having me. Very welcome, sir. Microsoft has been doing loads of stuff, loads of stuff. You've been shipping product left, right and centre. you've done a trial across NHS organisations, 30 ,000 staff, 90 NHS organisations, I should say. There's Dragon Co-Pilot, there's build your own healthcare agent stuff, there's bots, there's all sorts going on.

0:49And I have a big question, which we'll answer probably later in this podcast, which is, is this the moment? Is this the moment that we call, you know, is this the fulcrum of pre AI and post AI? And is this now the infrastructure that's going to change things for the way that we do things in healthcare um but before that uh it'd be great to hear a little bit about you because you've got a fascinating career and so if you give us a little bit of that to begin with can show our audience why you are such an authority to talk about this stuff well um thank you james so uh well i mean we'll come back to it but i you know a lot of my linkedin posts end with hashtag era of ai so i think we're in in the moment um i'm very happy to be in the moment but there was some you know as with many people's careers there's a bit of serendipity and a bit of luck along the way so um so so my story briefly um i i think i'm on chapter three of my career if i look back and spray on some retrospective coherence uh so i started i started in the civil service um i was a policy analyst um more or less straight out of university i spent for about 10 years i spent most of that time in what was then the the number 10 strategy unit in the Blair years and then the Brown years and which was a fantastic experience fantastic opportunity got to work on a bunch of policy areas but mainly in healthcare which I took up became the sort of the health policy lead there and that's where I developed sort of health as my long suit and I left Whitehall in about 2010 just before the election and then went into healthcare management.

2:30So I've worked as a hospital exec in South London where I grew up. I've worked at NHS helping run what was then the new care models program, sort of precursor of integrated care systems. I did a Harkness fellowship. I've just come back from the celebration of the 100 years of Harkness in Barcelona this last weekend. Amazing. What else have I done? I spent a few years on the board in medical research on the board of the British Heart Foundation. And what I think the connection to Microsoft was, I was thinking about my next step. I'd done a big technology project with the then CEO of Microsoft UK, Claire Barclay, at the British Heart Foundation, where we were creating something called The Circuit.

3:15It's actually a neat little example of technology innovation. We were trying to connect every defibrillator around the country through a cloud-based piece of software back to the ambulance services. And I played a role in it. So it's subsequently been even more successful. But in any case, when I was looking for my next thing, I picked up the phone among many others to Claire and it just so happened they were looking for a new lead at Microsoft's UK healthcare business. And here I've been. So I did not foresee the generative AI wave and I'm sort of gripping on by my fingers, both excited and daunted, I guess, in equal measure.

3:54um so yeah it's a it's an exciting time i think to be at the uh nexus of healthcare technology for sure yeah and what a time as well because microsoft seems very very linked to the nhs and like your distribution within the nhs with the products you already have and things like that there is this relationship between microsoft and the nhs which also allows you guys to make a certain level of impact i think quite quickly with things that you can ship i think that's what we've seen very recently isn't it with yeah co-pilot the trial which i even saw on the you know the government website that trial has has got to to show i guess what can be done and therefore what is going to be done as a result um and then everything else so maybe let's just go through or maybe give me your view of how you framework this or contextualize this into all the different things you do have going on.

4:56And yeah, what has been going on recently? Yeah, well, let me put it in some context because as you say, we've been busy, certainly with our work with the NHS and wider UK healthcare. So I mean, Microsoft is not new to the UK where business has been here over 40 years, one of the first offices that was opened up actually. And we've been working with the NHS for at least 30 years. I think our first agreement was signed in the mid-90s. I like to talk in threes. I think there's three big things that we're doing in healthcare.

5:33So the first of those is around AI solutions. I'll come back to that. The second of those is around our cloud data and AI platforms. And the third of those is around security. I think just to spend a little bit of time on the latter two and then maybe we'll circle back to the AI discussion, which is often the other way around. So I think Microsoft technology, M365 technology is ubiquitous in a lot of the UK public sector, certainly in the NHS. It's what allows, for instance, clinicians, healthcare workers to connect with each other over teams. That itself rolled out very rapidly in the early days of the pandemic, I think, helped cement hybrid working at a really important time.

6:22And that is codified under a national agreement, the most recent version of which in England was in 2023. So all of that technology is available to the 1.7 million users across the NHS. and that continues to develop the kind of technology that's provisioned on what's called the shared national tenant. And then the security wraparound, all of that is hugely important too. And I think that's probably, security and health tech is a topic that's maybe under-discussed or only discussed when there's a huge incident like the WannaCry attack or the attack on Synovus last summer or the summer before. But that's hugely important, baking in all of that, the right security posture into all that technology.

7:18So those are our sort of three pillars. And we work both with the national bodies in England, but also Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. We work with frontline trusts. We work with health tech and biotech customers. and private healthcare providers. I think let's talk about some of this stuff then. I know that you want to put security up front. And I actually think this is important to put security up front because I think the more that we push new technologies that are less well understood, which by definition, a new technology is going to be less understood. I don't think any of us normal people in the health tech world or healthcare world, we're able to build an AI from scratch.

8:05We don't know how it works, but I could probably put together the circuitry or at least I could draw it out because I had to learn it from my anaesthetic exams. I'd be able to draw the circuitry of a defibrillator, right? So I do know that. I know the pressure gas is stored. So like, I do know the nuts and bolts of that. I don't know the nuts and bolts of AI. And actually, I was reflecting on that as a clinician that for our exams as an anesthetist, we do have to learn the the way that technology works and so there's a comfort in that that it's not just random and applying this technology to a lot of clinicians on the ground floor and then giving them all of this i think understandably there's this moment of oh i don't quite know how it works and therefore what are the things people are concerned about well yeah people are concerned about security and as you and I both know healthcare is largely based on trust particularly when you're adopting new technology and so I actually think it's more important here on this podcast than probably anywhere else to talk about that and shine a light on it because as AI comes in with ambient scribes and the co-pilot stuff the agentic stuff as well I think as clinicians we are quite reasonably a little bit cynical a little bit concerned because we lack the trust in it because we don't know how it works and so part of alleviating that and part of actually I think creating impact on this is to give people that the benefit of feeling secure and at least the security and so what is it that you guys are doing all of that stuff that I've talked about you know the start the co-pilots the agentic stuff will come on to But what is it that you guys do specifically or think about specifically?

9:52How do you think about security and building that trust with clinicians, I guess? First off, healthcare is one of the most attacked industries. And actually, the UK is one of the most attacked countries. Oh, really? If you look at our most recent global report to security, I think it spells that out. I think we're second after the US. Healthcare is right up there, may even be the top. I think it's a dubious honor, but either healthcare or education. And so I think actually AI can be a tool to increase the armory of an organization. So one of our co-pilots, and we have quite a few, is our security co-pilot.

10:32And so that helps security specialists manage their security estate, manage their security posture more effectively. So that's one example of how AI can actually support your security posture. I think then in the world of generative AI, probably one of the most important things to understand, particularly when you're talking about things like Microsoft 365 Copilot, and you referenced the study earlier on that we've just recently done with the NHS, is that when you deploy, when you use M365 Copilot, which is a paid for product, it inherits the security protocols that come with your M365 technology.

11:17And it is protected in that sense, in that way. And I think that's really important, particularly in a world where, and you're probably close to this than I, but the use of shadow technology, shadow IT, or particularly shadow AI tools, which are ungoverned, can be unsecure and can bring in additional risk into an organization's technology estate. That's really important to understand that. So that doesn't mean there is no risk because you need to make sure your existing security protocols reflect what you prioritize as an organization and so on. And there are still risks. There's so many threat vectors in the NHS, in the healthcare industry.

12:03But I think that is important to understand that difference. The second of the three things you're doing, you said cloud data and AI. I think the other thing that strikes me as well is that I saw the paper that keith grimes put out the other day that so much of the technology that's adopted in the nhs lacks a legal framework or hasn't been through the correct legal stuff and it's there's this sense that ai and and new technologies are being on one hand created and that frontier is getting really pushed but there's there's an adoption frontier inside nhs organizations of what can possibly be adopted based on the infrastructure that they have and that not necessarily being progressed as in fact not it definitely isn't being progressed as quickly it's hardly likely that any quantum stuff's going to reach NHS organizations anytime soon and yet it is being created and until we move that adoption frontier and and change what's actually possible from an infrastructure perspective for NHS organizations it doesn't seem likely that we're going to keep pace at all with the technology that's coming through.

13:16I think what's interesting about Microsoft and the distribution that you already have within the NHS and what you're able to do is that I think you can tangibly change that if I'm understanding things correctly and you can correct me if I'm wrong but changing the infrastructure or giving people an infrastructure layer in order to bring in new technologies like AI that seems like a stepwise change on things. So is that something that you're doing? And is that what you kind of meant by that second point? Yeah. So I think that's part of, you know, what I hope is special about the Microsoft and NHS partnership.

13:54So we, you know, the shared national tenant, the, you know, it's NHS.net Connect, as it's known, is, you know, it's grown from, you know, being a NHS mail email system to really being the, I think it's the, you know, on some measures, it's the largest collaboration platform in the world or one of the largest. And that, you know, that gives you the opportunity potentially to scale technology and innovation quite rapidly. Not, you know, not just necessarily Microsoft technology, but it's a piece of national infrastructure now. And the NHS, you know, with things like the NHS app and this, you know, and our work with them, I think it has the, you know, at its best, it has the opportunity actually to turn on its head, you know, your hypothesis or your, you know, the argument just there, which is, you know, that it's going to be slower moving.

14:44Potentially it can be or can scale more rapidly, but it's going to do that understandably with caution and prudence as well. So I already made a reference to the fact because it was under conditions of expediency because we had to move rapidly. We were able to scale teams, roll out teams so very quickly in those early weeks of the pandemic. There is the potential to scale things like Copilot, which is, I would argue, is the sort of the safe, affordable way to scale AI in the NHS really, really quite rapidly. And we've got, I think, across the NHS in the UK, about 70 ,000 users now. And as you said, the evaluation study that we did with the NHS conducted was demonstrating a couple of hours, 43 minutes per user per day in terms of time saving.

15:38That's more or less five weeks a year of time back to care. But there are guardrails around how co-pilot is used. It's not used for direct patient care. And we can come on to a clinical AI in a moment, perhaps. But there is a huge amount of productivity opportunity for, let's say, knowledge workers. And I don't just mean non-clinicians. I include clinicians in that bracket. But a huge amount of opportunity before you even get into direct patient care, diagnostics, that kind of thing. And so it's really exciting to see the hundreds of use cases emerging from that work. You know, at its most basic, that's about meeting summarization.

16:22It's about, you know, first draft generation. It's about finding in your Microsoft grasp that elusive piece of information that otherwise might take minutes or even hours to pin down. But actually, with the Copilot tool, you can, you know, you get to it much quicker. But the real value is, like I say, is on top of that when you start building use cases around back and middle office functions like incident reporting or document redaction or any function. And I think increasingly they're sort of clinically adjacent, but still not direct patient care. And that's really exciting to see starting to accelerate and starting to take hold.

17:07So products wise, then we're talking about 365 Copilot there, I assume you've also got Dragon Copilot, which is the clinical version. And then there's other things like the agentic Copilot studio and things like that. I'm probably mixing terms here. but so you've explained i think they're what the 365 co-pilot this this clinically adjacent but non-clinical non-autonomous ai that can be used by humans to create workflows and streamline things in that kind of you know back office way i guess the dragon co-pilot though is clinical so can you tell me about that? Yeah, so as I said we have a few co-pilots so Dragon Co-Pilot was launched in the UK market just recently in September after a long private preview process working with a number of trusts that brings together ambient AI capability so technology that turns a conversation in real time into a transcript, if you like.

18:21It brings together digital dictation capability that, in part, we brought into our organization through the acquisition of Nuance a few years ago. And then it layers on top of that sort of fine-tuned generative AI capability, which allow it then, so it's more than just an AI scribe, but it can turn a conversation like this, if this were a clinical consultation, whether in person or virtually into a structured clinical note, really importantly. So taking away a lot of the, in the US, they call it pajama time. It's time that, you know, the doctor or healthcare professional would have spent after contracted hours.

19:01I know it well. I know it well. Or time in clinic, but not focused on the patient. And, you know, the estimates suggest that sort of five minutes plus, say, per clinical encounter. But then also, beyond that, it starts to open up capability for creating actions on the back of that consultation. So generating a patient referral letter, a GP referral, an order set, and so on. And that is, I think that's even more exciting, those generative AI capabilities, always with the human in the loop, but taking out the drudgery, if you like, of clinical documentation, which on some measures can take up to a third of a clinician's working week.

19:43so you know as i see it or as we see it there is um you know core co-pilot m365 co-pilot for all of your yeah you might say basic knowledge worker tasks you know both for clinicians and non-clinicians and then when you get into the you know the clinic the consultation setting you've got this um you know fine-tuned uh co-pilot this piece of technology that is specifically designed for that but then backs into the EHR really interesting so the clinical co-pilot dragon where where is this in terms of its deployment and its adoption as I said we were we were testing that technology under private preview before it was GA brought to general availability in September so it's it's an it's an active discussion you know but there are many discussions going on you know both nationally uh and locally about uh about how most effectively to you know bring this technology to the market that's going to be the thing isn't it i think back to um so i've just seen a few friends from medical school over the last couple of weeks um and they are consultants now which is crazy but um they have clinical practices and they don't know anything about health tech they don't engage in it they don't do any of that stuff so once this gets turned on in their hospital I'm I'm really interested in you know their reactions to it because it's very far removed from me who's always been interested in this stuff and how this stuff actually reaches the ground and that kind of thing and one of my friends was just asking me a lot of questions on this just very kind of um like wonderfully naive questions on this of real basics that are quite humbling for people in health tech that just evangelize this technology and know it and understand it and all that sort of stuff.

21:40So I'm just interested in how you see this being adopted. Are you expecting this to go quite quickly? Are you expected to be quite heavy-handed in the adoption side of it from a Microsoft perspective or helping organizations do this or like what's your yeah how do you how do you think about that with because the technology is the technology and it you know it will do all these things and it will be a watershed moment in healthcare i have absolutely no doubt about that that this is the future the bit i'm like unclear on and what i'm super passionate about trying to help and fix is the gap between now and then and getting that as short as possible no it's a great question i think it comes back to your sort of framing comment at the beginning, James, which is sort of where are we in the era of AI, if you like to borrow my phrase.

22:35And I think that I, for me, you know, just zooming out maybe for a moment, I think there is this really exciting coincidence of factors at the moment. You've got healthcare systems, and I don't just mean the NHS, you know, I spend quite a lot of time, you know, looking at international health systems under real pressure. Still, you know, some of that's, you know, and the factors are well known, but some of that is still the, you know, the knock-on impact of the pandemic, you know, shortages on the workforce side and, you know, the underlying trends like an aging population and so on. You're creating these real pinch points and certainly in the NHS, I think it's as, you know, as challenging as it's ever been.

23:16So you've got that, those set of factors. And then you've got these, if you like, almost a new category of technology, a new class of technology in generative AI. sort of come along at just the right time. Now, it would be easy to get a bit giddy about that. And, you know, we try hard not to get too carried away because there are, you know, all sorts of important questions about, you know, implementation and so on. But having said that, you know, when you speak to people who try this technology out, and I'm talking here both about, you know, M365 Copilot, the sort of your everyday AI assistant, you know, perhaps even more so for certainly for clinicians, dragon co-pilot you know which take you take away the burden of clinical documentation that they that the reaction is is really quite is very positive and and very and very strong and um it's this belief a lot of the time of how good it is when i've seen it amongst my friends yeah quite often hear the phrase you know don't you dare take this technology away from me now you know having worked on the front line of the nhs and you know previous areas in sort of policy making that that's not that common um a thing to hear you know when you're talking about a technology deployment and we had vanderbilt medical center um talking to us the other day who were sort of earlier a doctor of um dragon copilot and you know they were saying the same thing that it really um you know on on a number of measures that they had seen a really positive response from their clinical community so look does that guarantee um you know that it will do everything that is promised?

24:46No, not necessarily. So you're absolutely right to, you know, to emphasize the sort of challenge around adoption. I think, though, you know, in that positive response may also be the kernel of how we can think differently about adoption. And for me, that really is about sort of peer to peer engagement, because this is a technology that has a low barrier to entry, which is part of the reason you get the excitement. You know, fact that we got to whatever it was, you know, one or 200 million users of ChatGPT when it was first launched in, you know, whenever that was, you know, December 2022 or January 2023, I think that was because this technology was so easy for people to engage with through natural language.

25:28And, you know, some of that persists and it continues to evolve. And it's quite democratic in that sense in that the, you know, you are your own prompt engineer, your own vibe coder to, you know, to use a few of the, even the language is changing, right? To be able to explain what this means. But getting people together and talking, you know, clinician to clinician, manager to manager about, you know, the value that they are extracting from this technology on a day-to-day basis, I think will be part of the way in which we really accelerate the adoption curve. So we are investing into that. So we have things called co-pilot cafes, you know, every week, virtual events where people come and trade notes and also learn from Microsoft experts on how best to get the value from this technology.

26:13And it's in our interest as well, because we want to understand what are the really resonant use cases? What are the things that people are doing? Because you don't want to build these things multiple times. You want to learn from people who are using it at the front line. So I think that will be part of the way in which potentially we can accelerate the uptake. and just on that as well i think part of it that i liked when i was looking at the the products and the stack and and stuff was the um the agent service that lets you as as i understand it put your clinical workflow together and kind of build that for yourself because again when people have the opportunity to build it themselves they're going to create a relationship and it doesn't feel like it's being done to me and i think that's a lot of the problem as well in healthcare where it's like oh like this thing has been updated it's now got all this ai stuff please use it it's like hold on that just feels like it's been done to me you haven't given me a framework and everything so i think that side of it as well we've actually got those people in the room the people with a stake in this to to be like okay cool let's design this clinical workflow together and then piece this stuff and then all of a sudden it starts to make a lot more sense so um the agent service is that live as well phrase we use around copilot is it's it's it's the ui for your ai so it's it's your user interface to your you know your ai opportunity your lands yeah okay agents then are many trusts already building out already putting into production are um sort of specialist ai assistants for for discrete tasks for discrete workloads they go and do a thing one of the use cases that is really popping at the moment is an HR agent.

27:58So most people are starting in the sort of back or middle office. And so, you know, you can quite rapidly build an agent where you can talk to your own HR processes and documentation without needing a, you know, an HR representative in the loop, or at least not in the same way as they might otherwise be. So, you know, really automating what is a sort of manual human process. And that's really exciting to think if you start to scale that kind of process up across multiple processes, across multiple organizations, how might that allow staff to operate more fully at the top of their license? How might it free up time and money for the NHS just when it needs it most?

28:43So that's really exciting. I think there is even more leading edge work in what we call the agentic world in the Microsoft business more broadly. So there is something called the Healthcare Agent Orchestrator, which is a piece of technology which we have been trialing with Stanford and Johns Hopkins and more recently Oxford in the UK. and that use case that they've been working on specifically around tumor boards, as they would call it in the US, we would say, I guess, cancer MDTs. And that's about discrete agents working in a coordinated fashion to bring together a multimodal data set. So that might be doctor's notes, it might be x-rays, it might be lab results, it might be voice recordings, you know, all of the the different data sources that you would, you know, combine potentially in an MDT setting to give you that 360 degree view of a patient, this can be done in a, you know, in a far slicker fashion, far more efficient fashion through this kind of agent orchestration.

29:47And that, I think, that is really exciting. That starts to take you into, you know, new territory altogether. And, you know, I can send if it's interesting for your listeners, you know, some of the early write-ups of that work which is in the public domain so so yeah the agentic era I think you know probably people will start small and you know on use cases that are quite discreet and defined but I think that the you know the opportunity scape is really quite broad. And are we beyond and sorry for bringing this up but are we are we beyond worrying about things like hallucinations and things in in that kind of agentic layer and as soon as you get more divorced from like this tells this to do something and this tells this to do something we might be sort of multiplying any kind of error rates and things like that are we are we beyond worrying about that or is that still a concern that's mitigated in different ways within the process still right to be concerned and and you're still right to think about you know the human in the loop um yeah for any output um there'll be others you know more deeply versed in you know how the technology is built to probably better answer that question.

30:54What I would say is, you know, typically, when you've got a more domain specific or just more discrete use case, then you are able to, you know, build into, you know, the architecture of that, the solution, mitigations, as you say, to, you know, to avoid risks like that. More broadly, I suppose, the wider point, you know, as part of thinking about how to get your organization AI ready is is to think about investing in responsible AI as a broader approach. Why is it that you're thinking about AI rather than rushing to a technology that happens to be exciting? What is the governance you would want to put in place in your organization alongside the wider clinical safety and financial audit governance that will help you assess risk as you go along?

31:45And these are all really important questions, I think, that we also invest into and work with our customers and partners on as part of AI deployments rather than just thinking about narrowly about the software itself. You mentioned that you guys work with health tech companies, biotech companies and things like that. So if I'm a health tech founder in the space now building workflow tools or virtual care models or anything like that, what's the most practical way to plug into this co-pilot ecosystem rather than trying to reinvent the wheel because it's a bit of an elephant in the room that you probably put a lot of startups or potential startups out of business by just deploying a lot of this stuff but there's going to be plenty in the space that can work with you and so what's the practical way that that works How does the health tech world and all the companies in it, I guess, support this movement with Microsoft?

32:42100%. Look, we are a, Microsoft is a platform software company really at our core. So we rely on partners building IP on top of our technology stack. you know and the UK has I think a fantastic ecosystem of you know technology innovators who are building out companies you know I would say particularly maybe in the healthcare and life sciences space to do just that so we would welcome talking to exactly those kinds of companies about how we might be able to partner we also you know we also need to work with and get a huge amount of value from working with partners who are helping on to your early question on in terms of adoption and change management, you know, working with the, you know, the likes of NHS trusts or other end customers, if you like, and thinking and helping them think through how they get the most value from these technologies.

33:32So, you know, this will be, you know, these will be opportunities that are realized through partnership, I think, rather than through, you know, single actors. And large though we are, you know, we absolutely encourage a sort of a plural ecosystem. And as I said, we rely on it. So get in touch with me and the team to see how we can make that happen. if i had the time i'd probably spin up a company that was purely just based on adopting this technology and helping those organizations get ready and do a revenue share with you guys i'd love to do that but i don't have time to do that james um jake it's been absolutely pleasure hearing about all of this um what are you most excited about with this movement because there's a there's a lot going on there's a lot of moving parts there's the technology just keeps getting better and better the pace is ridiculous you guys being close to seeing how this could actually impact people at the level of a enormous organization and and which by the way does health care and you've got non-clinical ai supporting the organization you've got clinical ai supporting the health care to patients there's obviously a lot to be excited about here the partnerships with all the companies that could build on top and all the things that could be done like there's loads but i'm interested like because you're on the inside here what's the thing that you're most excited about i think two things probably james and maybe it's a balance between the here and now and the the what might come so i think in the here and now it's um the potential to to scale um tech technology that is going back to our you know the early discussion that people see immediate value from in their day-to-day work in healthcare, whether that's clinicians or administrators or other healthcare workers, and just at the time when the NHS needs it.

35:26So rather than, of course, we need to demonstrate the value of this technology, but actually being able to scale that quite rapidly when we do, rather than taking too long about it, I guess that's the here and now. So how do we make sure the NHS is an early, but safe adopter of AI at scale, you know, just at the time when it needs it, I think. And then maybe for the medium term. And, you know, I'm really excited about if you start to put this technology in the hands of the consumer, the patient, you know, where would that take you? And there is a bit of Microsoft within the Microsoft AI business led for health care by Dom King and team out of London.

36:09And, you know, they are working on exactly that North Star, which is hugely exciting. Really, you know, really just starting to think through, you know, how might you change the, you know, the interaction between supply and demand in delivery of health care quite fundamentally by embracing these new technologies in quite different ways. And that needs working through, I think. But Mustafa Silliman, who heads up Microsoft AI globally in the business, was talking quite recently about humanist superintelligence as the end goal there. So, you know, AI for a real purpose. And I think he puts, you know, medical super intelligence at the core of that.

36:53So I'm really excited to see where that might go in the medium term, as well as seeing how we can scale products which are already in the market safely and rapidly in the near term. I love it. Yeah, the Dom King's division is sort of like the secret. It's the secret Avengers division of Microsoft Healthcare that I can't seem to get an interview with. but I will keep persisting. When they've got something that they want to say, just let them know that I am here as the megaphone for it if they do wish. I will do, yeah. Well, Jacob, yeah, absolutely pleasure. If people want to learn more about what you guys are up to, what's the best place for us to direct them to?

37:29I will send you a link to some of our online resources, but thank you for the opportunity to talk through some of what we're doing. Congratulations again on a great podcast. You're very welcome. absolute pleasure jacob thank you cheers hey everyone thanks for listening and making it all the way to the end of this episode remember to subscribe rate us and leave a review and you can head to the description of this episode to follow me on all of my social media so you don't miss out on any of the latest health tech content