Emerante de Pradines and Orson Welles’s The War of the Worlds

27:28I couldn't believe that they had killed him. He was such a good man. And we said to each other, if they can kill a priest, what awaits us? Gabino Dubon was part of Father Rutillo's parish team in Aguilares, an impoverished town just outside the Salvadorian capital. We thought they could target us in the parish, but not Rutilio. They wouldn't dare. We saw him as a figurehead in the church with some power, and we trusted that God was on our side. In this devoutly Roman Catholic country, the 48-year-old Jesuit was one of the first priests to be murdered for speaking out against the military government.

28:12It led to a highly symbolic act of protest from the hierarchy of the church.

28:24On the first Sunday after the murder, the Archbishop of San Salvador, Oscar Romero, held just one single mass, ordering all other churches in his archdiocese to cancel theirs. In an emotional address to the tens of thousands of worshippers packed inside the cavernous cathedral and to the thousands more listening outside, the Archbishop said that anyone who attacks one of my priests attacks me.

28:57These were times of political and social turbulence across much of Latin America and challenging times for the Catholic Church, especially in increasingly polarised El Salvador. It was a very traditional church, connected in many ways to the aristocrats of the time, very conservative. Sister Ana Maria Pineda has written extensively about Rutilio Grande. He's also a distant relative. But what happens is that you have the Second Vatican Council between 1963 and 1965, and that introduced a new understanding of church. That new understanding included authorising that Mass be celebrated in local languages and that the laity should be able to participate more fully in the Mass.

29:53Born into a peasant family, Rutilio Grande had been ordained in El Salvador in 1959. After a spell studying abroad and then teaching at the Jesuit seminary in San Salvador, he was sent to the small town of Aguilaris, a poor rural parish dominated by large sugarcane plantations. He began a very innovative approach to parish ministry. He started to put together little teams, some of the team members with some of the people from the parish, and they would do an on-ground assessment of what was happening. but it was also not only a process of information but formation, preparing those that would have ministerial leadership positions in the parish.

30:43These were the building blocks of the so-called Christian-based communities, where lay preachers would gather local people together and help them interpret the teachings of the Bible in a new light, one that was more relevant to their lives. Gavina, with two small children at the time, became one of Rutilio Grande's delegates of the word.

31:07He was very inspiring, and he insisted that the reality we lived as peasants wasn't God's making. He said that we campesinos should have a better life. His message was very different to what we'd heard before. We would meet with Father Rutilio once a month and talk about the problems in the communities. He would give us the biblical passages and show us how to come up with questions to prompt discussions. This was liberation theology in practice. In 1970s El Salvador, it quickly drew the wrath of local landowners and the military.

31:49They began calling him a rebellious priest, a communist inciting the peasants. He said at mass that he was getting death threats. I know who's behind it, he said. I am here, come and get me, but do it with this community in front of me. He challenged them. He was like that. It was late afternoon on March 12th, 1977. Father Rutilio was heading for a nearby parish in his jeep, he had two passengers, his sacristan, Manuel Solorzano, and a 16-year-old assistant called Nelson Lemus. They stopped to give three local boys a lift. After passing a small village along the unmade dirt road, they were attacked by gunmen.

32:33Father Rutilio, his sacristan, and young Nelson were killed in a hail of bullets. The three youngsters escaped and raised the alarm.

32:50When I got back to Aguilares, I heard the bells ringing as if someone had died. I went to see my cousin Patricia and asked her, what's happening? She said, don't you know, they've killed Padre Rutilio. I felt shivers run down my spine. My legs trembled and my blood went cold. People were flocking to the town. there was an air of shock and disbelief, Gabina recalls. A stunned Archbishop Romero arrived.

33:22He came the same day and broke down crying when he saw the bodies. He was overwhelmed, I think, and terrified. They were great friends and Rutilio used to go and see Romero and ask for advice and tell him how things were in the parish. Not only did Romero cancel all Masses the following Sunday to hold one single Mass from the Cathedral, but he also refused to attend any official functions with the government. Almost exactly three years after Father Rutilio's murder, in March 1980, Archbishop Romero was himself shot dead at the altar by a right-wing death squad. In 2022, Pope Francis put Father Rutilio Grande, Manuel Solorzano and Nelson Lemus on the road to sainthood as martyrs of the faith.

34:16Gabina Dubon, like many Salvadorian Catholics, still marks each anniversary of the murder of Father Rutilio Grande. I meet people at these commemorations from Canada, Spain, Italy, from lots of countries. I'm still amazed how Rutillo is known around the world and how people are still following his legacy and his teachings.

34:44Gabina Dubon and sister Ana Maria Pineda were speaking to Mike Lanchon, recalling the 1977 murder in El Salvador of Father Rutillo Grande in that CTVC production for the BBC World Service. From civil war in Central America, we turn next to civil war in the Balkans. In 1995, Bosnian Serb troops murdered thousands of Bosnian Muslim men and boys in the worst atrocity in Europe since the Second World War. The men had taken refuge in the UN safe area of Srebrenica, but peacekeepers there were unable to protect them. In 2014, Luis Hidalgo spoke to Hasan Nuhanovic, whose brother, father and mother were among those killed.

35:32It's July 1995. For three years now, the world has watched in horror as the former Yugoslav Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina tears itself apart along its ethnic fault lines. To try to stem the carnage, the United Nations had announced in 1993 that it was setting up safe havens where Bosnian Muslim refugees could come and be protected from attack by the Bosnian Serbs. One of those safe havens was the eastern town of Srebrenica. You are now under the protection of the UN forces. We were into the fourth year of the war and suffering and starvation and horror. Throughout that period, the local people would ask the UN representatives there, please tell us what is going to happen if the Serbs attacked again.

36:19Hassan Nuhanovic and his family were among the tens of thousands of Bosnian Muslims who'd taken refuge in Srebrenica. Hassan had a job as a translator for the UN. And these UN people would say, well, 24 hours a day there are NATO jets flying over Bosnia, maintaining the no-fly zone, and within 5, 10, 15 minutes upon our call, the NATO aircraft would arrive and destroy any attacking force. But by early July 1995, the Bosnian Serbs were closing in. The Bosnian Serbs have been told that NATO will launch airstrikes if their troops advance any further into the safe area around Srebrenica. But the NATO airstrikes didn't come.

37:02Inside the town, there was panic. The Bosnian Muslims knew what the Bosnian Serbs would do if they captured their men. The Serbs killed thousands of men and boys already in the spring and summer of 1992. So why would they do anything different with the men and the boys in July 1995?

37:22So, as the Serb forces closed in, some men and boys took to the hills. The rest, men, women and children, walked to the Dutch UN peacekeepers' headquarters in the nearby village of Potachari. There, overwhelmed, the Dutch peacekeepers let in 5 ,000 of the refugees, among them Hassan's younger brother, Mohammed, his mother and his father. The other 20 ,000 were told to stay outside. And then, on the afternoon of July 11th, came the sound that everyone had been waiting for. At last, NATO jets were bombing Bosnian Serb positions. When these two bombs exploded, the Serb troops were at the suburbs of the town already, and we were all thinking, yes, OK, finally NATO is going to do something.

38:05But later we learned that these bombs missed their targets. But, you know, that was not the main problem. The problem was that there were no more jets and no more bombs.

38:19Two hours later, the Bosnian Serb commander, General Ratko Mladic, entered a deserted Srebrenica. The town of Srebrenica has been overrun by the Bosnian Serbs. NATO airstrikes failed to stop the advance. The UN says 20 ,000 refugees are fleeing the area. The next morning, General Mladic summoned the Dutch peacekeepers to a meeting. The Dutch commander took three Srebrenica residents with him. One of them was Hassan's father, Ibro, a respected engineer. I was horrified. I thought that my father would not return alive. So when my father came back from this meeting, around noon of July 12th, I learned what happened at the meeting.

39:01What did he say? He was very nervous. He was very nervous. He knew that we were in a very, very serious situation. Later, Mladic and his men arrived at the UN base. General Mladic can be seen on film talking to a young boy among the sea of refugees. They brought buses and trucks, and I realised they were going to start deporting women and young children. And we were inside this UN base, and that was the only safe place in the whole region. The Bosnian Serbs began loading the refugees outside the UN base onto buses. Right outside the gates of the base, Hassan says, men and boys were being separated from the women.

39:43Hassan knew it was only a matter of time before the refugees inside the base were told to leave too. He knew it would be hard to save his parents, but he could at least maybe save his brother. Because I heard that translators like myself, the UN staff, would be allowed to stay on the base. OK, if I cannot save the lives of all three members of my family, then the life of my brother is the priority number one. And my parents agreed with that plan. Hassan pleaded with the Dutch peacekeepers to add his brother's name to the list of UN employees to keep him safe. They refused. The next day at noon, the peacekeepers came into the hall where the refugees were and handed Hassan and the other translators megaphones.

40:29And they told me, OK, translate to the people that they should start leaving the base in groups of five and the women who had their teenage daughters with them they were really scared because we heard that some of these girls were raped outside of the base there was a rumor and they were they were the ones who really panicked and they asked me hassan tell us what's going to happen and i i was telling everyone who asked me in that mass of people, they will probably kill all men and boys. And they will allow the women and the young children to be deported. This is what I was telling the people. Hassan doesn't know if they didn't believe him or if right up until the last moment they thought the UN peacekeepers must have some secret plan.

41:17But slowly the refugees walked in a long line out of the base to where the Bosnian Serb soldiers were waiting for them. Hassan's parents and brother were among the last to leave. There were almost no more refugees left inside the base. When the Dutch realised that I was still keeping them in the office of my colleagues, I worked with these UN military observers. There were three of them. So three of them and three Dutch soldiers with rifles told me, Hassan, tell your family to leave. These were my colleagues with whom I worked every day for the last six months. And you had to tell them? I told him, yes.

41:57But as Hassan's parents and brother walked towards the gate, the deputy Dutch commander, Colonel Franken, came up to them and told Hassan his father could stay. Franken said, you know, your father can stay because he was at the meeting with Mladic, so he has a special status. And my father said to Franken, but what about my younger son and my wife? And Franken said to me, well, tell your father if he doesn't want to stay, he can leave too. What did your father say when he said that? He just smiled at Franken. and shook hands with him and walked out. And I was crying. I said I was going to join the three of them to the gate and, you know, that I would join them.

42:39They turned around. They only had three, four seconds, five seconds. And they decided that somehow they must convince me to stay so that at least I, their elder son, survives. And they said to me, Hassan, don't worry, your brother will be with us, with his parents. You stay. And my brother also turned around. He screamed at me. He said, you are not coming with me. You are going to stay. And that was the last time I saw them. It has taken Hassan Hanovic years to piece together what happened to his family. When the buses finally arrived in Bosnian government-held territory, only women and children emerged.

43:19More than 7 ,000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were killed by the Serbs in the five days after Srebrenica's fall. Hassan's brother and father were among them. His mother's burned remains were found in 2009 under a rubber sheep in a village near their old home. Luis Hidalgo was talking to Hassan Lohanovic. In 2017, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague sentenced Ratko Mladic, the Bosnian Serb commander, to life in prison. He'd been found guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity, charges which related to events including the Srebrenica massacre. Next, we've got our sporting witness for the week, and this takes us to the Australian racetrack.

44:03Ten years ago, Michelle Payne became the first and so far only female jockey to win the prestigious Melbourne Cup, and her horse, Prince of Penzance, was a 100-to-1 outsider. She's been talking to Uma Doriswamy. My name is Michelle Payne and I am a retired jockey now from Australia and the first female jockey to win the Melbourne Cup. And she started early. So the very first time I rode a horse I was four years old. I remember it so clearly because I fell off him. It was our little pony and he was very naughty and I remember so clearly my dad said you have to get back on or you'll never get back on, you'll be too frightened.

44:42So I hopped back on, I had a bit of a headache, I wasn't feeling very good about it. Whether that stuck with me growing up and going through the years and all of the falls, I'm not sure. I just was so lucky to have a job that I was passionate about and couldn't wait to try to prove myself and make the most of those opportunities that were coming my way. To be honest, being the youngest of 10 children, with her father being a trainer, she and her siblings were pretty much certain to become jockeys. Andrew. Jockey. Bernadette. Jockey. Therese. Jockey. Marie. Jockey. Kathy. Jockey. Patrick. Jockey.

45:17Stephen. Horse handler. Bridget. Jockey. Margaret. Accountant. And by the way, she's a very successful accountant as well. For one reason or another, we all just fell in love with horses and horse racing and the competitiveness of it. Probably just a competitive family at heart. I'd hate to see what family board game night is like at yours. We love a game of Pictionary and plenty of shouting and cheating going on, that's for sure. After her mother died in a car crash when Michelle was just six months old, her dad raised them all and she and her brothers and sisters had to step up. Once mum passed away, we all had to get in and work and stick together and just make sure that the household ran.

46:02Michelle quickly learnt from her siblings. I had some really good, strong older sisters who just got on with the job. It was very hard for them because women were certainly breaking in to the sport when they were riding and I think the no fuss attitude that they had really set me up to come into a world of male dominance and not have a worry. Obviously it was tough because we still had to fight for opportunities. I was very lucky to have the upbringing that I had. And the real competition started when she was 15. My very first ride in a race was a winner for my dad out here at Ballarat where we grew up.

46:38It sort of propelled me into getting a good start. But as a young kid, when you first start, you just need the experience and the opportunities to make the most of that. So it was just a lot of hard work, believing in yourself, brushing off anybody who was negative towards you. And from then, you still had to really prove yourself. Being a jockey is a dangerous job, and Michelle has had to come back from serious injuries. There were bad injuries. The very first one, I fractured my skull and had bleeding and bruising to the brain. I had to have seven months off. Following that I had fractures in my neck and another concussion and then more fractures in my back and dislocated ankles and wrists and stuff.

47:18So it was difficult but at the same time it was easy for me to continue a passion that I was just so eager to do welling. Michelle carried on riding and while she was winning she was also getting the attention of Australian owners and trainers who could get her a ride in the biggest race of them all. The Melbourne Cup in Australia, it's named our race that stops the nation because it's a public holiday. I remember as a young child in primary school, they would wheel the TV out. You would finish school late just to watch the race. Everybody would have a number. It's just huge. It's basically one of our biggest sporting events.

47:55As a jockey, it's the race that you want to compete in and that you want to try to win. In 2015, she competed in it for the first time, becoming only the fourth woman to do so. She was on the 101 Outsider, Prince of Penzance, and it was a family affair as always, as her brother Stevie was by her side. Stevie was nominated by the owner, so usually the owner of the horse will pick the barrier. The owner was just so excited to have Stevie a part of it. Stevie drew the barrier and he was the horse handler or strapper of Prince of Penzance on Melbourne Cup days. The best strapper in the business, Stevie Payne, is going to come forward and pick the barrier.

48:32Now, Steve told me he's after barrier one or two, and he's picked barrier one. Sure enough, he got barrier number one, which was what we were really hoping for, so it was really the start of the fairy tale. Having secured the inside track meant Michelle potentially had an easier route. Things went well on the starting line as well. In the barriers to the Melbourne Cup, normally I would be super focused, not speaking to any jockeys around you, just in the zone, ready to ride the race of your life. but I felt really calm, very ready for the occasion. And just so happened Frankie Dottori had drawn Barrier 2 beside me and he was just mucking around and joking around with me and he said, what are you doing tonight?

49:14You know, what are you doing after the race? And I said, well, I'm going to be celebrating so you can join me if you like. Finally, Michelle only had the 3 ,200 metres between her and the finish line. She thought she had the advantage of Barrier 1 but Prince of Penzance had other ideas. He began really slowly, missed the start. He just basically, the first step was a walkout and I was like, oh God, here we are in the Melbourne Cup, we've just missed the start. After that dodgy start, things began to settle down for Michelle. It's a very fine line, getting your horse into a position that you want without stirring them up and firing them up because they're very intuitive.

49:53So thankfully, we were able to get into the position that we wanted, which was following Frankie Dettori on Max Dynamite. From there, it's basically just you're pacing yourself. You're trying to get the horse into a rhythm, get them breathing. He was quite strong. He was wanting to get on with the job, and my job was just trying to keep him relaxed and not exerting himself. It turned out we were coming into the race beautifully around the 600, 700 metre mark, and I thought, oh, God, this is my chance. We could be about to win the Melbourne Cup, and it's at that point where you really have to stay focused and in the moment because I've seen so many races in the Melbourne Cup where jockeys have got excited and taken off too early or waited too long.

50:33It's really, you know, a fine line. It's a game of inches or millimetres, really. So as it turned out, we just got the most beautiful, smooth run into the race. And Prince of Penzance really had a really strong finish for me. And I just never forget that final 200 metres where it was like floating on air, realising that I was about to win our greatest race and a dream that I had had from a five-year-old. and in her post-race interview with ABC Michelle finally felt she could speak freely and say how hard it had sometimes been for her and other female jockeys It's such a chauvinistic sport I know some of the owners were keen to kick me off for instance, John Richards and Darren stuck really solid with me I put in all the effort I could, I galloped him every gallop he had and did everything I could to stay on him because I thought he had what it takes to run a race in the Melbourne Cup and I just can't say how grateful I am to them and I just want to say to everyone else who gets stuff because they think women aren't strong enough but we just beat the world.

51:34I think it was the perfect time to stand up and say something for all of the people who had basically put female riders down, said that we shouldn't be out there in the bigger races, we weren't good enough or whatever. There was just so many instances and times where you just had to brush that off and ignore people's opinions. It's about proving yourself and getting the opportunities. And at 100 to 1, Prince of Penzance won a lot of money for those who'd bet on such an outsider. It's incredible, like mind-blowing that the race that changed my life could change other people's lives as well. And a paramedic, she came up to me at a lunch one day and said, you know, I won£125 ,000, you changed my life, I paid off my loan.

52:16So many stories like that. I think the betting agencies in Ballarat didn't have enough money to pay out all of the people that had bet on him.

52:27The indomitable Michelle Payne was speaking to Uma Doriswamy. Finally this week, one of the great broadcasting stories of all time. In 1938, a young man and his theatre group performed a radio adaptation in the US of H.G. Wells' The War of the Worlds. The man was Orson Welles, and the play would become one of the most notorious events in the history of radio. Josephine McDermott tells the story with the aid of the BBC Archives. It's 8pm on 30 October 1938, the night before Halloween. Actors are standing gathered around microphones in a radio studio in New York City in the United States, scripts in hand.

53:10A 23-year-old Orson Welles, in a shirt and tie, begins telling a story. We know now that in the early years of the 20th century, this world was being watched closely by intelligences greater than man's, and yet as mortal as his own. They've performed a radio play every week since July, but this one is going to become perhaps the most famous of all time. Previous episodes from the low-budget Mercury Theatre on the Air for CBS, Columbia Broadcasting System, have included Treasure Island and The Count of Monte Cristo. The late 1930s are ripe with possibility for radio, as John Houseman, Orson Welles' theatrical partner and the producer, later described to the BBC.

54:01Suddenly you were able to hear drama and at the same time you had the knowledge that millions of other people were listening to this at exactly the same moment. That was absolutely unique. Nothing like it had ever happened to mankind. It was not only the explosion of radio that defined the era, but the rise of Adolf Hitler's Nazis and the threat of war. The fascists had invaded Czechoslovakia the month before this broadcast. A few days before Orson Welles took to the microphone, a young writer named Howard Koch was working on adapting H.G. Wells' book, War of the Worlds, for the radio. There was nothing left of the Welles short story, but the description of the creatures, their weapons, and, of course, the general idea that there was an invasion.

54:58It meant practically an original script and I had one week to do it. I tried to switch them to another story, but no, Orson wanted this one. But the first draft fell flat with producer John Houseman. It turned out to be a very boring show. Then the idea came to us that if we brought it up to date, it would suddenly become a very exciting show. In the science fiction story first published in 1897, metal cylinders from Mars fall to Earth in Surrey in the UK. The military is called to defend against these towering tripod fighting machines which have lethal rays. In updating the story, what was the harm in making the aliens land in New Jersey in the United States?

55:43I got a little fun out of planning a campaign like a drunken general between the Martians and us. I didn't have much time. And I spread the map out and closed my eyes, put the pencil down, landed on Grover's Mills. I thought, well, there's a good sound, American and real. and so I chose Grover's Mill as where the first Martian machine was to land. Four minutes after the start of the play, listeners tune in from another radio station where a programme has ended. They've missed the introduction and hear music being played by an orchestra but it's repeatedly interrupted with newsflashes about a supposedly developing situation.

56:32Professor Indelkoffer speaking at a dinner of the California Astronomical Society expressed the opinion that the explosions on Mars are undoubtedly nothing more than severe volcanic disturbances on the surface of the planet. We continue now with our piano interlude.

56:52Up to six million people tune in, and most don't realise what they're listening to is fictional. This is Orson Welles, interviewed on the BBC in 1970. What was the part of the War of the Worlds that really terrified people? I don't know many things, probably. We had an actor who did Roosevelt's voice terribly well. Citizens of the nation, I shall not try to conceal the gravity of the situation that confronts the country. We brought him on to assure everybody that there was no cause for alarm. I think that's when they really ran out in the streets.

57:32Then we had a thing, you know, where we had this... It didn't make any sense if anybody had analyzed it. We had a kind of ham radio, you know, amateur radio voice that would come in. This is, you know, identifying himself and trying to talk to other people about all this awful thing that was happening. We established him, and then we went to a CBS announcer on top of CBS who was describing the arrival of the Martians.

58:08and this dead silence the real trick we did was to hold dead silence on a full network with no sound at all yes and then you'd hear the microphone drop and then more silence and then this one little voice of the amateur radio saying this is such and such is there anybody on the air? Is there any more silence, you see? And that's, I guess, when they put the towels on their heads and ran out. I don't know why they put towels on their heads, but they did. Did they really do? I don't know what that was going to do. It was a sort of anti-Martian thing, particularly in the...

58:53And then there were all these traffic cops. It was Sunday night, you see. And all these guys out in Jersey on their motorbikes waiting, motorcycles waiting to, you know. And the people in the cars driving had the radio, but the cops didn't. And suddenly everybody started driving at 125 miles an hour. Pull over, now I'm going to the hills, you know. But it was no laughing matter for the terrified residents of Grovers Mill, New Jersey, that place randomly picked on a map by Howard Koch, as they described in a 1988 BBC radio programme. And they proceeded with this story about the marshes landing, and it was getting gruesome by the second.

59:38And we decided, maybe we'd better leave. So we got in the car, and I remember taking the kerosene light, because we had no electricity, and turning the real dim, and the most vivid recollection in my mind was I looked at this place and I said to myself, I wonder if I'll ever get back here again. I wonder if maybe some archaeological society will come and look at this and say, well, these people left because of the Martians. I don't know if it was eight cars or 13 cars, but I jumped into one, and we were all loaded to shoot something. And now we get up there by the lake at Grover's Mills, and there's nothing but a lot of people, no 100-foot Martians, this and that.

1:00:15We wondered at that point, where did they go? I don't know how long we stayed when I know we came back. And everybody was mad. And I mean angry. In 1974, on Day at Night on PBS, producer John Houseman told James Day what happened next. We were locked in a back room at CBS and there were a few accidents and there were panics. Certainly people rushed into the streets and rushed into churches and all kinds of things. But in fact, when all the hoopla had died down, there were actually, as far as we know, and certainly it would have been reflected in lawsuits, there were no fatalities. One lady broke her arm running out of her apartment.

1:00:56One broken arm. In many ways, that was a lucky escape for the producers of a drama which spooked half a nation. After the War of the Worlds was broadcast, US federal lawmakers ruled that radio stations should never again broadcast hoax information about a catastrophe or a crime. Josephine McDermott was our guide through one of the most amazing pieces of radio history. That's it for this week. We can't guarantee that we'll make you run for the hills in fear next time. But we will bring you more first-hand accounts of events from the past in the next History Hour. So until then, this is Max Pearson.

1:01:29From all of us here, thanks for listening. Goodbye. From the pioneers. We weren't going to ask mission. We were just going to do it. And the celebrations. You feel you have, you win. I feel it. I was first. I was furious. We were so proud of ourselves, and Cameron was proud of us too. I still cannot believe it. It was such an amazing feeling. It was incredible. To the humiliations. I did cry most of the half. Oh man, I'm failing. I'm failing this sport, and I love. Sporting Witness takes you to the events that have shaped the sports world through the eyes of the people who were there. It's not just about the sport.

1:02:10It's about all the other things that people with disabilities learn from each other. For nine minutes, you become a fan in the stands as we take you back in time to examine memorable moments from all over the world. There's a magic during those moments that carries your soul. We were truly blessed to be a part of history. Sporting Witness. Subscribe wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:02:34I want to put all the issues on the table that keep me up at night. The interview brings you conversations with the people shaping our world. From global leaders. I've much more than fulfilled the promises that I've made. To cultural icons. I'm just interested in how it feels to be playing songs that are 50 odd years old. Songs are like children. They're with you forever. The interview from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:03:04We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web. Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.