$50,000,000+ Pokemon Collector Breaks Silence on Logan Paul, PSA Controversy, & Stolen Cards

26:4216 million. He got over 16 million for it for a PSA 10. Do you think that over 16 million dollars for this Pikachu Illustrator card was too much money? Well, I can tell you this. There's not enough money in the world that I could have that would have justified me paying 16 million for that card. But remember, I have a long history, you know, in the hobby. So I know that chances are there's 39 of them and one PSA 10, you know, that may have been a marginal 10, but you know, there's gray areas, you know, you can look at a card, you can say, well, this, oh, this is almost, it hits that line, right?

27:30And you can go down or up, right? So there's only one 10. And I'm certainly not going to say a ripoff because I believe the guy could turn around and get his money back today. So no, I definitely don't think it's a ripoff. How much would it devalue that card if another PSA 10 came up? That would hurt. Would it go down from 16 million to like 10 million? or would it cut it down to like four? I would say like half.

27:59Graham Stephan:Because then if another comes out, then it's no longer one of a kind. So is that how that works? I think the one of a kind aspect gets such a big premium where it's no longer like, oh, you don't have the only one. Right. Yes, I, that. Right? You're laughing, Dan, but it's true. Of course it's true. That's what I, you're like, well, it makes it less valuable because it's no longer one of one. Yeah, that's the idea. I'm just saying, but there's a huge premium bump is the point I'm trying to make. I agree. Uh-huh. That one of one makes it pretty special. If it was no longer a one-on-one, it would devalue it.

28:36No question about how much. But the market cap would, it would increase. It wouldn't go down to half and it's exactly the same market cap of PSA 10. You know, it might be an illustrator. Do you, like, there's a chance another one comes out and then all of a sudden each are worth$4 million and all of a sudden the market cap happens. Yes, I do.

28:53Graham Stephan:Yeah, because personally, I think$16 ,000 was too much for the card. I think to me, it's probably an$8 to$10.5 million card. We had two people that were willing to pay$16 ,000 for it. Yeah, but those were institutional people who were going to try to fractionalize it. And that was their marketing expense because they got a ton of eyeballs on it. That, to me, is worth$6 million. Free marketing. So the card could be worth$10 ,000, and then they put$6 million of marketing dollars behind it. Yeah. Of course, I've talked to Logan about this. and he was hoping to double his money. You know, he got it in the area of$5 million.

29:26He was hoping to get$10 million. I don't know if he mentioned that. I did watch your podcast with him, which, by the way, I thought was tremendous. Thank you. Great podcast. And Logan came across tremendously. I had to text him and tell him, doggone, I said, you came across so well. I said, why? You told him that he did a good job. Oh, I told him. But he not only did a good job, he did a tremendous job. And you guys were out of sight. I mean, I wish I would have been sitting right there when you interviewed him. So I could have heard the whole thing. Thank you so much. But he was hoping to double his money.

30:04And, you know, with Logan, you know, you get that effect. You know, the increase, you know, value effect. You know, because it is Logan. And now the chances of another one coming out are, I don't think, I didn't think one would ever come out. And that one was a nine and they cross graded it, you know, and got a 10. And it didn't have to, they didn't have to cross grade it when it was a nine and then there would be zero tens, right? But there's only 39, there's only 39 in the world. and they've all pretty much come out and they've all been graded and they've all graded less than 10 so if another one came out i'd be shocked in that but i want to give you a little context with the psa 10 first edition based charizards when i did that pond stars that's 2016 10 years ago, there were 123 PSA 10 first edition based Charizards.

31:06Today, there's 124 or maybe 125 knockoff Logans. You know, in other words, the population has not increased in 10 years. And that in these, there were more than 39 made, you know, there, there was, you know, a thousand, you know, a thousand made. And so it's, I would not, I would not be afraid of something like that happening if I were the one to purchase it from Logan. And I should tell you something else, the one that Logan bought for me, the PSA 10, your first edition base, I wanted that card when he got a 10 because I had at that time the only two in the world. And now he got the third one, I wanted it really, really bad.

31:55I was willing to overpay for it. And he came up and met me here, you know, about other stuff, you know, just family stuff and that. But I told him, I said, I want that card really bad. He said, Gary, you could offer to trade me your two Beckett 10 first edition-based charges for my one, and I wouldn't do it. That card is going to my grave with me. And I know that can sound, you know, yeah, right, you know. But he did sell the illustrator. He's done a lot of transactions in these last five years or however long that's been, and he still has that card, and he never talks about it. He never shows it.

32:45But that card is his personal holy grail in that. So that kind of tells you how hard, number one, how hard it is to achieve those grades. But number two, how much they can mean to a person. And they mean a lot. And that's why I liked your podcast with him so much. Because that all came across. His love and his passion for Pokemon came across. Has he had problems? Has he made mistakes? and all that, of course. I mean, in my 72 years, I never made a mistake. So, but he's sincere when it comes to that. I want to tell you one other thing, just to get off the Logan thing after this. Because people don't know him very well.

33:34They know what he wants you to know, right? And he plays things up and it's all the wrestling. You know, I got to tell you, an awful lot of it is just acting in that because I have seen how he really is. And just to give you one quick example, then I can get off him. When he came to my house with about six, seven, eight people or something, he made sure that every single one did not use a curse word. He said, I don't want you cursing in front of Gary. in that, you know, no, not that I even care, right? But just out of respect for some reason, because he's never heard me swear because I never have in that.

34:17But I don't object to anybody being who they are and doing what they want, right? When's the last time you said the F word? This episode is in partnership with Airbnb. Graham and I are literally always traveling for the podcast. And in fact, these past few weeks have been very brutal. We have worked so much, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. I'm actually going to both Thailand and Japan for the next three weeks with a couple close friends. I cannot tell you how excited I am for that. The beaches in Thailand, to die for. The food in Thailand, amazing. And I'm telling you, it's going to be a blast.

34:48Graham Stephan:If you travel a bunch, you probably don't think twice about your home sitting empty. But when you're away, you could actually list your place on Airbnb instead of leaving it unused. And if you've ever considered hosting but weren't sure how you'd manage everything, the co-host network can help make it feel a lot more manageable. With this, you could partner with a local co-host who has hosting experience. He can help manage things like creating a listing, managing reservations, messaging guests, and helping make sure everything runs smoothly during their stay. Honestly, it just feels like a practical way to make better use of a space while also bringing in a little extra cash while you're away.

35:18At one point, I hosted my place on Airbnb. I kid you not, the guy that checked in was a fan of the channel. I've never said this before. It was a crazy experience, but the entire setup was very straightforward. everything ran smoothly and it turned into a genuinely great experience overall. If you're interested in hosting and you want a little help getting started, find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host. Running a small business means wearing a hundred different hats. And some of those hats, payroll, taxes, benefits, compliance, they're not fun hats. They're hats that eat up your time and hats that you have to deal with and Graham does not.

35:49Graham Stephan:All right, Jack. Well, that's why we're partnered with Gusto. For those unaware, Gusto is the online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses. It's all-in-one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use, so you can pay higher on board and support your team from anywhere. I actually used Gusto way before we ever partnered with them. When I first set up my S-Corp and started working with Graham, I had no idea where to start. It was completely overwhelming. Fortunately, my CPA actually told me about Gusto, and they walked me through everything step-by-step, and I've been using them ever since.

36:19Graham Stephan:Gusto handles all of it automatically. We're talking payroll tax filing, direct deposits, health benefits, 401k, workers' comp. You name it. And they even give you direct access to certified HR experts if you ever run into a tough situation. Really, it's kind of like having a whole HR department right in your back pocket. And switching is way easier than you'd think. Just transfer over your existing data and you're up and running fast. Plus, you will not pay a single cent until you run your very first payroll. From there, it is one monthly price with unlimited payroll runs with no hidden fees and no surprises.

36:49Graham Stephan:If you're ready to join 400 ,000 other small businesses, try Gusto today at gusto.com slash iced and get three months free when you run your first payroll. Again, that is three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash iced. One more time, that is gusto.com slash iced with the link down below in the description. When's the last time you said the F word? I've never said the F word. No, are you serious? Ever? Never have. Even in like a fit, someone cuts you off in the freeway and you're like, oh. Just let it loose. No, I would even hate to tell you what I say because it's so corny. What do you say?

37:25But I don't say that. That's what you say? No, but I love that.

37:31Graham Stephan:What do you say when someone cuts you off on the freeway and you're upset? What do you yell at? I'm just silent and let my eyes turn red, I guess. You know, in my day with my parents, we just simply didn't swear and weren't allowed to swear. and uh and but again now i make it sound so corny because i don't care if people swear right it means it doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever i just don't do it myself and just the fact that he would you know go out of his way to make sure they didn't in front of me was just because he knew i didn't swear in that but i didn't swear because it's just not a part of me but I don't mind if he does or you do.

38:18But, you know, come to think of it, I've never heard either one of you two swear. We believe that. I mean, we're not generally big cursers. Right. So, and one other thing, obviously Logan is someone, unfortunately, where if you defend him, you just get completely excoriated and people hate you online. Right. I'm not going to sit here and be dishonest. Like my experiences with Logan, I have nothing bad. Like he, when we filmed our podcast with him before, during, and afterwards. He was incredibly patient. He, like, to me, showed great moral character. Like, he invited us into his home. He was very friendly, sharing, caring.

38:53And obviously, I tell people this that are already skeptical of Logan, like my friends or whatever. I'm like, yeah, he was great. They're like, of course you're going to say that because you're filming a podcast with him, so he's going to put his best foot forward and he doesn't want you guys saying negative things about him online. I'm like, that sounds like guilty until proven innocent.

39:06Graham Stephan:Yes, right. Even in 2020, we met him and I picked up a Pokemon card from him. oh i remember that he was so cordial so nice and i even met him in 2016 at the gym 24 hour fitness in hollywood super nice i went up to him because i had seen his videos just starting to pop up online and he was so nice when someone invites me into their personal house and we're standing in the kitchen they're all talking on the island and he's got a shirtless by the way shirtless yeah all right well you don't need to go that far because now people are going to say oh well looking at you guys yeah yeah but and his bird is walking us yeah and his bird is there and his bird poops on the ground and his wife is walking around with the baby in her arms it's like that's just a normal to me everything i saw was like indicative of just a normal happy family and the bird poops and then it was like oh okay yeah let me oh no no don't you don't worry about it i'll clean it up like i don't know well you know i could show you i could show you my texts with him right?

40:06I could show you my text with him. The majority of them are baby pictures, just to give you an idea. All right.

40:14Graham Stephan:So we got to circle back to the finance aspect of it. Do you worry that the hobby is becoming too much of a business? Yeah, I think it's inevitable. I just think that that's how things go. And I don't mind it at all in that. I mean, it's increased the interest. You have people going back on their collections, that were worth next to nothing. Now they're worth money. Now they go to shows. Now they sell to younger people who don't have them. And I just think it's a steady increase in interest, and it's just a part of it. And I think it helps. I know everybody talks about scalpers. And I mean, I can't see myself waiting in line or anything or, you know, bowling over people trying to get a box and that.

41:07I can't see it. You know, I don't like seeing that, but that's all a part of the cycle. And I think it's important to the hobby in that. So it doesn't bother me. That doesn't bother me at all. Let's take the average person out there, a viewer watching this right now. What cards should they buy if they want to get the highest return on investment? The newer sets are being printed, just printed like crazy. They're doing, you know, extra runs and all that. I still think vintage, Watsi era, I still think are probably, I know right now you're going to pretty much pay for what you get and get what you pay for, you know, whether it's vintage or modern.

41:56long term I think vintage is going to outperform modern even though a lot of the modern sets even though I'm not personally you know really up on them what is there like 10 ,000 Pokemon now or something I just simply don't have the time to you know to keep up plus they're doing four or five sets a year and having to do you know this I don't have personally have time for that but I I know that they're overprinting most of them, and for good reason. You know, I mean, they're in the—you know, TPCI is in the business to make money. You know, they're—and so they're going to try to maximize, you know, their profits.

42:36And they're doing a good job, and still the demand is outperforming what's available. But most viewers out there are going to look to see what you're buying. okay, he's buying base set, PSA 10, first edition Charizards. They don't have the budget for that. And they can't buy a part of it, right? Or maybe they can, but let's be real here. People want the actual card. What cards should they be buying if they have a budget of, say,$10 ,000? Well, you know, something that has, I think, outperformed the market steadily all these years are Pikachus and Charizards in that. So any Pikachu and Charizard.

43:15Pikachus and Charizards, even stuffed animals, you know, of Pikachu. I mean, I was in Scottsdale, Arizona last week for a show. And this lady had these little tiny miniature vintage Pokemon that were made with 3D, what do you call it, 3D printing thing? and that little tiny Eevees and little tiny Pikachus and all that in her hand. And I kept her for about a half hour going through everyone trying to get the entire set, just like I always have done in that. But the Pikachus, there was only one left. Everybody was picking Pikachus even today. So I would say Charizards and Pikachus in these modern sets are probably the smartest.

44:10And before what year? Even if you get the new set that just came out or the first set 27 years ago that first came out, the Pikachu on both of them, I think, are a good investment. I really do. What do you think is the most undervalued card today? The base set trainers, I think, are undervalued because nobody, if you weren't collecting sets, you weren't collecting trainers. You know, you weren't super energy removal or item finder. You know, those guys had absolutely zero individual interest. So, but nowadays, nowadays people are going back and trying to complete those sets. And those cards were always the ones that were not treated the best.

44:56You know, they were, you know, played and thrown around and not protected. And, you know, you didn't waste a penny sleeve and a top loader on an item finder. so finding those in good condition I think is a pretty much undervalued now

45:14Graham Stephan:and what do you think is the most overvalued Pokemon card? I mean I would hate to say that illustrator

45:24no I don't really have an answer to that they're things are worth what they're worth and what are people overlooking? Maybe a lot of the girl trainers are being overlooked in that. And then a lot of the guy trainers are kind of overvalued. What is the most valuable card ever, in your opinion? I would say the first edition base Charizards. Let's say outside of Pokemon, what's the most valuable card ever? You know, that T206 card is, I think is, you know, I remember when the King's owner, the Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky, right? Those two, when they, and they had their, you know, I'd say that's probably the most valuable card.

46:15I can tell you kind of an interesting story. I went to UCLA, you know, that was my school. You know, I went to college there. and our crosstown rival, which you guys would know very well, was USC. Well, at the time, O.J. Simpson was the running back and the Heisman Trophy winner, the number one pick overall, and an incredible player. Again, I was already, had some age on me, and I was already a collector, and I grabbed every single rookie card of O.J. Simpsons I could find. I mean, I had handfuls of OJ Simpson, you know, tops, rookie cards in that. And like, you know, the troubles he had in the mid nineties, my amazing, valuable collection of OJ Simpson cards just went down to nothing.

47:13And that's why I've always appreciated Pokemon. You know, Charizard's never going to, he's never going to do anything, you know, bad. You know, that's going to affect his value. With those, it was safe in that even the Star Trek cards. I mean, I have all the Star Trek cards from the 70s. And, you know, I collected all the way through the 60s, the 70s, completed all those sets. Adam's Family, Munsters, all, every single one, I have at least two sets of everything that I know of. Unless something slipped by without my ever hearing about it. But, I mean, that was, you know, pretty bad when that happened with OJ Simpson.

47:53And so it kind of made me a little bit leery. I kind of got out of sports, you know, sports card collecting after that, especially being the junk era, you know, of the 90s, you know, with sports cards. And today I do collect some Shohei Otani cards in that, you know, which have done very well, you know, especially recently. just because he was a real phenomenon and another thing from Japan that transfers over very well. It would be very good.

48:26Graham Stephan:You know what I really wanted to collect? The old Mars Attacks cards from the 1950s. Love those. Yeah. For some reason, I don't think I've ever gotten any appreciation, but I love the movie. I'm a fan of the cards, Danny Elfman, Tim Burton, all of that. And I think having those old cards in the 1950s would be incredible. Especially for you, because you actually have an attachment outside of that. You want that. It's not like you got it and now you love it. You want that. So you should bring those in. If I'm interested in that, there's got to be a whole bunch of other people who are like, oh, that's kind of cool.

49:06Graham Stephan:And I tend to think, because this is what always happens to me. There's something I want, and it's just a little too much for me to want to buy it. I don't buy it, and then it like 10x is in value. And I'll give you a few examples. Andre Jick came to me, and this is early 2020, and he was saying, dude, I'm thinking about buying a first edition base set Charizard. I said, how much are those? I'm 50 grand. I was like, oh, wow, that's a lot of money. He's like, yeah, I'm not sure. I was looking on eBay, and I see a few listed 50, 55, and I'm like, that's a car. I'm good. and then now they're worth 500 grand.

49:42Graham Stephan:And then I started looking and saying, okay, well, if these cards have shot up in value for the PSA 10s, the one that I think is undervalued at the time was the PSA 10 Japanese base set. And I said, why wouldn't that be worth a significant amount of money too? Because that was before the English. That was even earlier as a PSA 10. That's the rookie card. That is the card. And I remember they were selling on eBay for$2 ,000 and I wanted to buy one under$2 ,000. so I feel like I could get a deal. And I was bidding on one on the drive home and I got to$1 ,900 on eBay and I had typed in like$1 ,975 so I can get it under$2 ,000.

50:18Graham Stephan:And it sold for like$1 ,980. Someone sniped it at the end for an extra like$5 above me. I was just pissed off. And then I said, okay, what's the one better than that? It was the no rarity symbol, PSA 10, Japanese Charizard. And those at the time were selling for$20 ,000. It was$25 ,000. and I thought to myself, why are they selling so cheap? And I looked at the pop reports. I saw how rare they are, but I'm like, that's a car. I'm not going to do it. And now they're worth, I don't know how many, hundreds of thousands of dollars. The no rarity one is out of sight. Yes. Yeah, and even the base, the regular base one, what are they selling for?

50:58Graham Stephan:10 to 15K. Yeah, I know, right. So I tend to think, I'm like early to a lot of these things and if I'm looking at these Mars Attacks cards that are so obscure. I can't help but think, is this just another mistake that I'm making by not buying them? Right. Well, I know they were popular when I was a kid. You know, they were popular. Were they Pokemon popular? No, but nothing's ever been, right? You can't gauge things against Pokemon, what's happened with them. But, I mean, they're great cards. I don't have them myself. You know, I think they started before I started collecting cards. I think my first card set was 1964 maybe, and that was Munsters, if I remember right.

51:42Graham Stephan:What do you think is the biggest mistake that you made when building your collection? Probably my lack of interest in Japanese cards in the very beginning. I had opportunities to buy all the trophy cards. I mean, I would say maybe two, three dozen of the rarest promo, Japanese promo cards, go through my hands at one time or another in 1998, 1999, 2000. They went through my hands. I had them, and I just didn't have an interest in them. I wish I would have shown more of an interest in the Japanese releases in the very beginning. Yes, you can imagine what I would have if I had done that. What do you think is the biggest lie that people tell themselves about investing in Pokemon?

52:23Maybe overspending on modern sets, on newer sets. You know, it's not like there's only 15 ,000 produced, you know, like 27 years ago. I mean, now there's a million produced. And all those cars are going to be coming out. You know, they're all going to be making it out there in the future. Maybe putting too much reliance on an uptick in value of the modern sets.

52:54Graham Stephan:I'm curious for your own collection, how do you make sure it stays safe? Well, I have, like I've told you, five storage lockers. Three of them are security storage lockers, you know, where there is no getting in and out. I only have one safe deposit box, interestingly enough, with the very, very most valuable cards. My storage lockers are, everything is secure. My house, I keep almost nothing at home, you know, in my house. Plus I have security gates, special security gates and cameras everywhere. If they did, because I do have some non-Pokemon things that mean a lot to me. And so I don't have any concern about, you know, anything.

53:44It's a good question because people are robbing stores. They're breaking glass and they're, you know, they're doing all this because the value has increased so much. It's worthwhile for thieves to go after them. I have absolutely zero concern of that happening to me. Also, you have PSA identification, where if your cards were stolen, people would be able to know exactly when those cards were being resold on the market.

54:10Graham Stephan:It's not necessarily that, though, but what if there's damage or like a mega fire breaks out or something like that? Is there no insurance? Yeah. Yeah. No, there's no insurance. There's no insurance that would be any good anyway. I know companies try to tell you differently. It's not true. But based on what Jack said, I had two cards stolen. I was at a show in Denver, Denver, Colorado. And I brought cards for the kids to hold. You know, when they take pictures with me and that, they can hold the card. And almost none have ever seen one in person. But this time in Denver, I brought a BGS 9.5 first edition based Charizard and a BGS 9.5 shadowless Charizard.

54:56And those are the two cards I brought to let the kids hold on to and look at and take pictures with them. And don't ask me how, they got stolen. Those two cards got stolen. At the time, we're talking, you know, over$50 ,000 in value. I never told anybody. I did contact the police and told them. I never mentioned it on a podcast. I never said a thing. Tuan, my wife, was the only one who even knew it happened. And it just broke my heart that it would happen. Six months later, I got a phone call from a friend of mine, apparently not really, you know, kind of a friend in Los Angeles, who I had my phone number, so I must have had a transaction with him in the last couple decades or something.

55:52And he said, Gary, these two, he sent pictures. He said, you know, did these cars used to be in your collection? And I said, yeah, those were the two cars that were stolen from me in Denver, Colorado six months ago. He said, well, I just bought them. A guy, a store in New Jersey contacted me, and I just bought them. And they're shipping them to me overnight, already shipped. I said, don't plan on getting them. I said, it's not very unlikely you're going to open the box. There's going to be nothing in there or something. That next morning, they came in. He opened them up. And they were in there.

56:39And I'll tell you the ironic part of it. I said, he called me. I said, you really got them? I said, yeah, those were my cards. So he said, well, I want you to have them back. And so I said, okay. I contacted PayPal. Actually, he contacted PayPal. I contacted the police department. They got together in three days. He drove up, gave me those two cards. He got his money back from PayPal. It was tens of thousands. I can't remember how much it was. The ironic part of it is one of those two cards had my autograph on the slab, on the plastic, and Chum Lee's autograph on the plastic. Like all the thief would have had to do was take him out and no one ever would have known this.

57:35This thief was such an idiot that he did not take him out of the slabs. And so people fortunately know my collection, right? Was the person that sold your friend these two cards the person that stole the cards from you? They wouldn't tell. I did try to find out. I did try to find out. They wouldn't tell me. uh if that's the like you mean they being the police or like you reached out to this card shop in new jersey no i reached out to the back to the police and tried to find out what you know what the story but because of the investigation and and it was a large amount uh i there was no way for me to find that out whether it was this that store somebody sold that store it because either way if somebody sold it to them, they took a big hit in that.

58:23When I got the cards back and I gave a real nice bonus to the guy who was honest, he never had to say a word to me, right? Every time I would look at those two cards, And at any point, even if it was pictures on the internet or every time I saw it, I would get a feeling in my stomach, kind of a sick feeling in my stomach because it reminded me of that horrible thing that happened. And I understand maybe I'm too sensitive in that, but that's how I am. Every time I saw him, I would just feel sick to my stomach. so I ended up selling those two cards back to that guy for pretty much the price he had paid before but then I got the cash so you know I I came out okay of course I wish I had those two cards today because they'd be worth a lot more today but uh but yeah that that's what that's the one time I was I was stolen you know that I got robbed and how it happened I don't know So if someone has$10 ,000 today and they want to invest in Pokemon cards, what cards should they buy?

59:34I think the PSA 9s, I think, are gaining a lot of credibility, you know, these days, especially after seeing so many of those PSA 9s can be cross-graded into 10s in that, like with the Illustrator, Logan's Illustrator and that. But I would say a PSA 9 base set is what I would start working on. PSA 9 hollow base set hollow is what I would start.

1:00:07Graham Stephan:So I'm curious, as a long-term collector, how do you separate something that is going to be around for a long time and be collectible for a long time versus something that's just hype today? Although really quick, I just want to say that when Jack and I first started the Ice Coffee Hour, we had to figure out everything ourselves. From the best cameras to use, the best editing equipment, how to find guests. Every day was a brand new challenge. That is why if you're starting or growing your own business, you know how valuable today's sponsor is. And that would be Shopify. Shopify is just like having an all-in-one business partner.

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1:01:17Graham Stephan:So start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing. On top of that, you can also sign up for their$1 a month trial today when you go to shopify.com slash ICH. Again, that is shopify.com slash ICH, shopify.com slash ICH, with the link down below in the description. Thank you again to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. The link is also down below in the description. Thanks again to Shopify for sponsoring this episode. So I'm curious, as a long-term collector, how do you separate something that is going to be around for a long time and be collectible for a long time versus something that's just hype today?

1:01:54Well, again, I think it has to do with our young people, with the kids. What they love is collecting is retrieving memories. And the better the memories, the better the items going to do in the future. I think a good example outside of that is the 1990s Beanie Babies. you know that was all of our mothers and you know little kids didn't collect their beanie baby might have a few right uh but two things that went wrong since i mentioned beanie babies is number one uh the disreputable ownership of that company because as soon as something did great you know they would print print print print print get all the money as fast as possible even with like the Princess Diana, you know, beanies, you know, which are valuable in that the fella did the same thing with that.

1:02:53But now we're talking about, you know, adults, adult collecting in that. If they were things that were around or of interest to us as kids, those things are safe.

1:03:06Graham Stephan:Do you ever think beanie babies will be worth money in the future? Never. It never deserved to be. And it's all because of the ownership. Beamy babies could have been, you know, real close to on par with Pokemon. They really could have been because it was a terrific idea. You know, just little stuffed animals are a tremendous thing for kids and everybody. Little ones that are collectible was a tremendous idea unless you're a greedy owner of it, you know, like the fellow was. and I mean he didn't care that you pay you know a$2 ,500 for a Princess Di beanie and then you know the prize of your collection you love and you talk about it you splash photos everywhere and then all of a sudden he does another thousand of them you know that takes your$2 ,500 you know way down.

1:04:01Pokemon never did anything like that. They never reprinted. And some of these modern sets, they're starting to reprint because of the scalper situations in that because they want the kids to get them in their hands for a reasonable price. But, I mean, they never did anything like that.

1:04:22Graham Stephan:We asked you five and a half years ago when was a good time to buy, and you said wait two years. What's your answer today? Because Pokemon saw that huge swing up. Yes. Should you wait to buy? Well, I would certainly wait until halfway through 2027. So for the next year, there's going to be enormous buzz and everything over the 30-year anniversary. That's going to attract a lot. So right now, I think things are overpriced. I think that's going to continue for the next year. I don't think the availability is really that far off. It doesn't really match to me. I think if you wait a year, wait until summer 2027, put those dollars aside, get your 10%, and then you're going to use those dollars in a year.

1:05:21Something like that, I would do.

1:05:23Graham Stephan:Got it. Well, in terms of grading, I'm really curious, since you helped grade 76 of the last 126 PSA 10 first edition base set Charizards, what was it like in the early days? Because I did hear that it was easier to grade a 10 back then than it is today. Yeah, there's so much going on with PSA. I can tell you, I never spent more than$7 to grade a card. All my PSA 10 first edition base Charizards,$7 to grade. Every single, I mean, I can even show you this. I don't know if they show prices, but I can show you all my submissions going back for years. And it's thousands and thousands and thousands of cards.

1:06:13I never paid over$7 for one grade until a year ago where I sent some in, went through this upcharge thing they have, and ended up having to pay hundreds more in that. So that was very fortunate. I was able to grade a ton of cards you wouldn't grade today because price in bulk is prohibitive. You know, it's so high.

1:06:42Graham Stephan:What do you think is the difference between a lot of the grading companies? Because we see PSA, BGS, we see CGC, TAG. Walk us through what the differences are between these. Is one better than another? Because I see, honestly, CGC getting significantly less for the same card than something like PSA. uh c cgc i have a a soft place in my heart for uh they helped me with some charity stuff i was doing and uh when they didn't have to when i feel they were more of a benefit to our charity than i was to them in that uh matt flynn uh i mean he he was he was just you know so so so nice to to me, because now, yes, for him, he would get the cards with their title on it.

1:07:37He had Collecticon put on the back, and I would give them away to all the kids that Collecticons gave away thousands of them, right? But he never charged me a nickel for any of them, because he was interested in autism charities. in that. And so what PSA has been going through, I would not grade a card through PSA anymore. I just wouldn't. Not until they make a change. Can you imagine you have your, let's say you get the Magic the Gathering cards and, or you get, you know, these other Pokemon cards that you love and you send them in and you're so excited to get the cards back. And six months later, You still don't have them.

1:08:22I mean, I've sent things in where I can't even remember what I sent in. Well, what fun is that? You know, the anticipation of the grade, and that is the fun part. I would not grade a card through PSA. And not only that, but I'm going to say with confidence. Now, I wouldn't do this because of my age. but with confidence I can say that if they turned it over to me within four months, I would have the turnaround time down to 30 days and I would have the price per card for bulk back down to$15. I say that with confidence that I personally could do that. Would that affect the bottom line? Yeah, it would affect the bottom line some, But long term, you can't always think short term, you know, long term, it would pay off.

1:09:18And but I honestly believe that I could do that.

1:09:22Graham Stephan:But why do you see such variance between the same card between two grading companies? Like I see a CGC PSA 10 Charizard selling for 100 grand, but the PSA one is like 250. Yeah, it's the reputation. You know, PSA is is the for resellers. You know, that's where the bucks are. is it always going to be that way? Not if they keep doing what they're doing. And I guess you know they purchased Beckett and they purchased SGC. Unless they make a change, that's all going to change. And what I think, CGC I think is a nice alternative. The best alternative I think is tag. You can't be more transparent than scanning cards and putting them on your website in that.

1:10:11Plus the guys, again, you know, with my heart, I love the guys that are running Tag, especially Jesse and CJ in Canada. I mean, tremendous people, great ideas, really, really, really care about Pokemon and care about the hobby. Tag is growing and it'll continue to grow. But I think that transparency is huge. When do you recommend grading a card? And if you are going to recommend any card company, I'm guessing it would be Tag. I sent in some cards to Tag for the first time showing that I really care about this because I know within 30, 40 days I'm going to get those cards back. And I know every single card I sent in, I'm so happy about, you know, nothing major, just fun stuff.

1:10:59Yeah, I would definitely recommend Tag today and PSA better make a change. Otherwise, if I had money in PSA, it would be out today. How do you know when to grade a card? Well, I guess that's what you're grading it for. If you're grading it for resale, then the sooner the better because I believe we're at a pretty good high in the market right now. The problem is you do it now. Six months from now, they could be much lower. And now you're losing money because of grading time. Uh, now if you're a collector, I think anytime is good because if you're, if you're trying to complete a set, you know, to Japanese base set to put on the wall or something, you can wait, you know, you can wait for that.

1:11:50So, uh, so it really depends on what you're doing it for. One thing I brought up to Logan when we had him on the podcast was regrading because I see a lot of videos pop up in my feed of someone receiving a card. they're like a regrading artist and they get the card they like push the sides down they clamp it they even can like paint on the card sometimes and i think to myself why do i not invest in a psa 7 psa 6 and then just wait for the card repair to get involved with ai or whatever it is that takes it to the next level hold on to this card until card repair becomes immaculate and then just get it regraded as a PSA 10 and sell it then?

1:12:31The most I ever did with cards, you know, many times in binders, cards are curved, right? And I would put those cards between glass in that and leave them there for a couple of weeks, you know, so they would flatten out. Then I put them back in the binder and they wouldn't be, you know, curved in that. So I used to call that,

1:12:51Graham Stephan:those two pieces of glass, my Pokemon hospital, which is kind of like altering cards, right? But when I got them, when I pulled them, they were flat. Then put them in a binder for some reason to the hollows curve, put them back to curve. But with what they're doing now, my concern is, is it long term? You know, you can fix those sides. I've seen these for three decades. What's happened to these cards? The curve comes back or maybe the correction they're making comes back. or the painting that they're doing that matches the paint can be determined or in the future, maybe it would be determined, you know, with a special light or something.

1:13:37It's true. AI is going to get better on both sides. Yeah, on both sides. That's what I mean. And it's also probably grade dating as well. And what I wonder is like, is a PSA, because you said, Graham, it's easier to get a PSA 10 a decade ago than it is today because they've gotten more strict. So then does it make it more or less valuable to get something that was PSA 10 10 years ago because it could suggest the card is actually in worse condition, but at the same time, you know it hasn't been tampered with. Yeah, well, I would think the condition of the cards were better back then

1:14:11outside of grading them in that because they were closer to the time when they were pulled, right? You know, back then we pulled them, graded them right away in that. So they were, these are the same cards we're talking about, but 20 years later. So why would a card 20 years later, if it's pulled out of a pack today compared to 20 years ago, pulled out of a pack, why would this one be better? You know, they wouldn't be. They'd be the same in that. But if I had to answer that honestly, I would say overall they were easier on grading back then. Mainly because I don't think they took the time to – they weren't that big of a deal back then.

1:14:54Remember, I was paying$7 a card, right? Maximum. Some submissions I was paying$4.50 a card, I remember, in that instead of minimum$25 today.

1:15:05Graham Stephan:How many cards come out of the pack as a PSA 10? Maybe a third. Wow. Out of 11 cards. If it was a base set, you know, 11 cards, maybe three, you know, something like that. And in terms of regrading, when you were on our podcast the last time, you had mentioned you had the only two BGS 10s. Yes. And a third popped up. Yes. And you were confused. Who had the third? Yes. Turned out Logan Paul had the third. Yes. That he bought. From you as a PSA 10, and he cracked it and regraded it. And you had mentioned that you had tried to regrade this card in the past. I did. And it never came back what Logan was able to regrade.

1:15:48Graham Stephan:Yes. Do you have any idea what happened? Well, I know why. The reason is I don't have 20 million followers. That's the reason why. Because that card was gray area. You know, nine, maybe nine, maybe ten. It was right. It was a gray area card. I gave him like eight of them to pick one. Which one do you want? You know, here's eight of them. Pick which one you want. He went and he looked and he looked and he looked. He never once turned the card around to look at the back. He looked at the fronts of all eight of them and he said, this is it. You know, this one is redder. The color was more redder.

1:16:33sign. Never turn around, see if there's a little white speck here or a little white speck here, which some tens do, of course. But then he cracked it, you know, with his 10 snips, right? And he did it all by himself. Had never cracked a case before. One little plastic shard could hit it. Yeah. Cost him$100 ,000 or something. But then when I took mine in, they were for reviews or they were four crossovers. In other words, I went with Lee Steinfeld, Leon Hart, and I, because he's in Dallas and Beckett was in Dallas. And so him and I took about 20 cards over to see if we could cross grade any to a Beckett 10.

1:17:18They didn't cross any of them over. But that one that Logan got, he, instead of trying to cross it over, he cut it out and sent it in. And did it deserve a 10? And, yeah, I think it deserved a 10 if he didn't do any damage to it when he cracked it.

1:17:35Graham Stephan:So you could have done that, but you didn't want to crack open the case. Boy, cracking open a PSA 10, especially a valuable first edition base. No, I'm not that stupid. How would you do it? I asked Logan. I said, how could you cut it? He said, Gary, I'm a maverick. I knew. I literally thought he's going to say, I'm an athlete. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That's what he said. He said, Gary, I'm a maverick. I said, okay, not very bright. Because you don't do that. You know, you can't do that. You just paid$150 ,000 for this card. And now, so. And there was also a chance that he could have pulled it out and it got a nine.

1:18:24Oh, absolutely. I think it was maybe more likely. Yeah. But he took it to Beckett and Beckett, you know, him and his – because it was a marginal 10. I'm not saying it wasn't a 10. I believe it was. But it hit that gray area.

1:18:43Graham Stephan:Were you upset that he got that 10? Another great question. He didn't talk to me for two months after that because he was afraid I'd be upset about it. And finally he came up to visit. We met at the D. Brews warehouse, you know, just brought stuff to mess around with. And he said, Gary, I was really afraid that you'd be mad that I cracked it and I got the Beckett 10. And I told him, I said, I couldn't be more happy for you than that. I said, I tried to cross it over. I never, ever, ever would have tried again. But I tried to cross over myself. Didn't work. You did it. You're a friend. I'm happy for you in that.

1:19:34And he said, oh, I'm so glad to hear it. He said, I've been avoiding talking to you because I was afraid of how you'd feel about it. Once again, in my opinion, showing, you know, the character, you know, that he has.

1:19:49Graham Stephan:Do you find that some celebrity cards, though, just grade a little higher? I do. Do they ever know at PSA that like, hey, this is just throwing out a name. This is Justin Bieber's PSA 10 Charizard. It would be real nice to give him a 10. It's maybe a nine, but let's give him a 10 or like, yo, this is Drake's Venusaur. Let's let's be real generous with this one. Like, does that happen? I do believe so. I hate to say it. But had you asked me a year ago, I would have been more reluctant to say that. But with the way it's been going at PSA, how disappointed I am in them, that wouldn't surprise me at all.

1:20:33because if Joe Blow puts a card on internet, you know, on Instagram, you know, and shows off, oh, I got a 10 on this, you know, maybe 80 people see it, right? If Justin Bieber does it, 80 million are going to see it. Yeah. If, would I be tempted myself to give a, you know, better, greater, to go a little bit higher with Justin's card than with Joe Blow's card? Yeah, I would. So I do believe that. Yes.

1:21:06Graham Stephan:So in terms of what PSA's response to that was, there was a whole podcast that I watched recently where a grader said that for vintage cards, it comes in and you have no idea whose name is attached to it. And it passes through several people. And it's like the general consensus between four to five people that come to a grade on the card. That's what they said. yeah so i tend to believe that it's not like justin bieber could submit a five and i'll come back at ten but if it if it's a nine where it's a little dicey then that might push it but what do you say to the fact that they say no multiple people look at this card independently and it's a general consensus it's not just some dude who's having a good day or a bad day it was like that's I would say it would not be hard to fathom that Justin Bieber's card would skip a few of those steps and maybe go straight from the grader to the last person and get the better grade.

1:22:14Graham Stephan:But what about for the average person who's submitting cards to PSA? How much of that is just luck or getting the right guy? It's Friday. He's getting off early for a long weekend. He's in a great mood and he just got a raise and he's like, you know what? This card is a 10. The human side of it, I definitely think plays a part in that because there are cards on the fringe. You know, you're going to have a deadlocked, beautiful, pristine 10, and you're going to have a weak 9, right? But some of those are going to be on the borderline between 9 and 10, and now it's up to that grader to up it or down it, right?

1:22:59I think most of us feel like we don't get the benefit, you know, the up of it. I don't think I ever got a break. I don't think anybody ever knew which cards were Gary's back that many years ago. Maybe today if I did, because now they do all know me, plus they do my autograph. But back then, you know, I definitely got no breaks. But I was always fairly satisfied with my results. in that what's the darkest side of the high-end pokemon market that you've been aware of i would say a lot of the a lot of the negativity that there is these days there's times i don't even want to go on youtube in that to to see what's going on in that because there used to be you know like one real negative influencer you know like michael rattle rattle pokemon you know who I respect, who I respect a lot.

1:24:00You know, I think he does a good job, and I think he's actually good for the hobby. But now there's been a number of people that have followed him, you know, to try to achieve some type of success that call their, you know, their followers broke Timmy's. And, you know, I've worked too many years to try to promote the hobby and the positive side. And there is so much negativity now with the scalpers, with negative influencers, with, you know, stores, you know, stores being broken into. There's too much and it affects me. It really does affect me, unlike ever before. So I think that's the dark side of the hobby.

1:24:50The hobby has just gotten so big and so valuable that it brings out, you know, all this stuff in that. And it's disappointing to me.

1:25:06Graham Stephan:One thing I was confused about is in our last podcast, you had mentioned Arita's signature on the Charizard. And I had no idea how big of an issue that would turn into. You had mentioned that his signature doesn't add value to the card. And that if he were to sign the card itself, it would devalue the card. And people called that out as disrespectful. Yes, especially the one girl. For those that don't know, Mitsuhiro Arita, he is a Pokemon artist. And he has been for many years, still does today. And he drew that original Charizard, that base set Charizard. so how did you handle that pushback against a signature i was kind of not new to life but i was new to the internet stuff and the effect that things could have and so i spoke out about the negativity you know when when i saw when i saw that i responded which i have learned since serves absolutely no purpose and only makes things worse in that.

1:26:13But I responded with truth, with facts, saying that I was not disrespecting Arita. I was simply saying that Arita's signature that at the time he was charging$30 for on a plastic case is not going to add value to a million-dollar card. And if it did, what,$50 increase, you're saying? That's all I was saying. And that is 1 ,000 % true then and now. And yet I was accused of disrespecting, you know, Arita. And I made it clear that that was silly and that the girl was a kook, you know, for saying something like that, right? I just acted the way I would in real life, right? Again, I don't swear, but kook, I go that far.

1:27:08Graham Stephan:So Jack and I were having a debate. How much would it devalue the card if he signed the card itself? Okay, now I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that if he signs directly on the card that that would devalue it. I don't think it would. You don't? No. His his signature on the case absolutely means nothing. But then why wouldn't you just have him sign every single first edition Charizard that's ungraded? Generally, my feeling is that his signature helps the value of any card that isn't gigantic in value, right? But then again, now he charges$100,$150 for a signature. And understandably, he's got to make a living, right?

1:27:56I totally get it, but I think you would have to pay a lot of money if you brought them a stack of Charizards to sign them all. But I think it would help the value on them, absolutely. I would almost think— I'm not disrespecting them either.

1:28:12Graham Stephan:I could say, because I'm not in the Pokemon, I tend to think it would devalue the card. Really? Just purely because you have a surface of something, let's say, like an original vintage card. the signature on the card itself when a signature is so prevalent i can't see helping with that if anything i think that would devase the value from from a value perspective i think on a newer card like when steve aoki signed my snorlax yeah i think sure that might to a certain degree because it's a snorlax but i think if if it were something of substantial value i think you would look at that and say well now it's been defaced okay it's like signing i said to jack it's like signing a mona lisa it's like elon musk could sign the mona lisa and i don't think that would help the value of the mona lisa but do you think because we're talking about this too is there any other signature on a pokemon card that would increase its value like if elon musk signed a pokemon card if c if steve jobs signed a pokemon card like what signatures out there would increase the value I increase the value.

1:29:16But if you signed a PSA 10 Charizard, you think that would increase the value of that card? Yeah. I think when you start getting the higher values, maybe not at all or not as much. Me, I have signed first edition Charizards, but I have no idea what value has happened with those. The card itself? Oh, yeah. Numerous times. Old or new? Old ones.

1:29:43Graham Stephan:original base set first edition Chargers. Do you ever tell them like, you might not want, like you might want wanting me to sign this card? Unless it's like a PSA one. I don't think I ever have. I don't think I've ever tried to discourage. I have never in my life charged for a signature. Okay. Everything I do is free. Yeah. And that, have I ever advised that I don't think I've ever said this is going to hurt the value. I just don't think too much along those lines, I guess. I, like, would Logan sign an illustrator, right? I think with unrelated people signing cards, I don't think those necessarily, if they're value cards of any type of value, I don't think that that would help at the very least.

1:30:39I think that could hurt. Elon Musk signing a first edition based Charizard, I can't see that being a good thing. Certainly his signature PSA would authenticate. My signature, every single grading company authenticates. They all have me in their files. And it helps the value of almost everything I sign for the people, which you can go on eBay and see right now because I don't charge for it, right?

1:31:10Graham Stephan:but that's for lower value cards so yeah you know what does help i'm gonna tell you kabuto king when he signed that first edition kabuto i think it sold for 50 000 was it 50 000 yeah his signature increased the value and that was a one-on-one good for him for those unaware by the way he is collecting every single first edition kabuto and said those are like underappreciated cards and he has a collection of like 2 ,000 of them. Right. And you could submit your first edition Kabuto and he will give you back a non-first edition signed. I think it was an excellent marketing strategy. I really do. But I don't think he's marketing anything.

1:31:57I think he just generally likes Kabuto. He's trying to get them. Yeah. He's trying to get them. And the population of what's available is definitely going down. because he's trying to get them all. I just think it's a great idea what he's doing on a marketing business level. On a personal level, there were an awful lot of cabudos made, so I don't know how that would affect it. Another thing that came up that I'm really curious and I wanted to ask you about is I saw this video, Graham and I were talking about this before this podcast, where you were unboxing a bass set and you're pulling it out of the side of the box.

1:32:40And then I read the comments and everyone in the comments are like, holy cow, he's trying to devalue these cards when he's pulling it out. And I looked at the video and it does look like transparently, it looks like when you're pulling it out, you're being rather aggressive. Like I would not be surprised if something could have happened based off the way you were unboxing it. And I'm curious, what was the idea behind, or lack of idea, I guess, What do you respond to those that are saying that? Yeah, I got absolutely murdered over that. Yeah. Absolutely murdered over that. And this is a good place to explain the story.

1:33:20It was during a podcast with Steve, Steve Aoki. And he was selling the card, the packs out of that box. They wanted to preserve the box, though. And the best way to do that is to slice the side and then hopefully gently take the packs out. And then when you're finished, you have an empty box with the shrink wrap almost perfectly around it, keeping it. Which is, I've done that. I have some boxes like that, right? The problem was I was being rushed. You know, behind the camera, right? the guys were saying, you know, hurry up, get them out of there. And I got a little bit flustered. And so I quickly, you know, tried to get them out, which made it look absolutely horrible.

1:34:17And I admit that, and I'm terribly sorry I had to do it like that, but I was being directed to because Steve was getting them, selling them. I had to get them out of there. It wasn't easy to fit them out out of that thing. The good part of it is we graded those, Steve graded those as part of what he was doing. And we got 40, I think it was 48 % tens. Wow. So they were all, they were unaffected by my apparent mishandling of them. They were totally unaffected, which was a good thing because nobody who received those packs complained about anything. They were all very, very happy. But did it look bad?

1:35:04It looked absolutely terrible. Like when you watch that video. Oh, cringe. Yeah, I'm sure it hurts you also as an investor of like these cards.

1:35:14Graham Stephan:Yeah, well, people said that you did that to like keep the value of your collection high. Well, that is so silly. Because then now you have all the tens. As if I care, you know, and there might, the odds are that there might be a Charizard inside that box in between other cards that wouldn't be affected by that anyway. Oh, I know. That's absurd. That was a silly one. Well, I don't think it's absurd. I think it, like, it makes, like you said, the incentives are aligned in the same way that PSA would happily grade Justin Bieber's card a 10, not, like, a 9. Because, like, it's more publicity. The same thing goes for like if you own a bunch of these things, it would make sense when you're pulling it out to like to scratch up the card.

1:35:54So I wouldn't say it's absurd, but I also understand your perspective of like if you're sitting up there and you're getting rushed and you have all these things going on. Like obviously it's going to be extremely hard to be very attentive and sensitive to the cards. It's not absurd that somebody would do it right. It's very absurd that I would do it. That's kind of what I meant because I have 52 PSA 10s and I've had those 52 PSA 10s for 20 years. I'm not selling them. I don't care about value. I never even look at the pop reports. I agree. I mean, you could have made a lot of money, more money in Pokemon or at least got some cash and like lived a lavish life.

1:36:36So I 100 % agree. It does not sound like you're doing it for the money whatsoever. And when I watched that video for the first time, I'm like, look, knowing everything I know about Gary, this was not planned out. But not everybody knows me. Of course. And so they might think something like, and if I looked at it with a neutral eye, I would think, how cringey is this? Exactly, yeah. I would have felt the same way as they do.

1:36:59Graham Stephan:Are you still the number one collector of Pokemon in the world? Yeah, I don't think there's any question about that because the majority of my collection, my Pokemon collection from Watsis are very unknown to anybody in that maybe there's one or two people in the world that know kind of what my collection really looks like. and the reason I don't yes the Charizards those I did put out there on the Pondstars but my collections I don't put out there because I've always tried to help the hobby and I think that would hurt the hobby if people knew how many of such and such I had it could affect market values in that and so I'm And the last thing I would want to do is hurt the hobby.

1:37:58I would rather burn those than put them out there and hurt him, him, him, and her, the value of their cards. So, yeah, it's very, very much a fact. I have the most valuable Pokemon collection in the world. There's absolutely no question about that at all. and someday someday you know maybe that that'll get out you know i'm kind of fortunate my family lives forever they all live in their 90s and 100s i'm going to last easily another 20 years or more uh i'm not uh i don't want to do anything between now and then to hurt the hobby

1:38:41Graham Stephan:would you sell me a psa 10 shadowless charizard yeah i won't i won't uh is is there a a price or something we could work out. No, no. Don't think I don't get asked all the time. What about any other non-Charizard card? If I needed the money, if there was a health issue or a family member health issue, or if I needed the money, I would sell everything I own, you know, for someone's, you know, a family member or something like that. But fortunately, I'm not in that position where I would have to sell anything. So I have bulk stuff that I'll sell to friends. I have sold bulk stuff that means absolutely nothing to me in quantity, but only to good friends.

1:39:42You're not a good friend. You're an average friend. But he wouldn't want boxes and boxes and boxes of bulk from me. But TCA Gaming, Rusty, I sold him a ton of bulk in that because he's a lifelong friend of mine. And he's one of the most precious people in the world as far as I'm concerned. Zach Browning from Gemmin Pokemon, him I sold a ton of bulk to also. in that. And those are the only two sales I've made, at least that come to mind right now, that I've given up, in that it was only to friends and it was only cards I didn't care about.

1:40:32Graham Stephan:And where do you see the hobby heading over the next 10 years? Well, I certainly think the hobby is very, very safe, and maybe more than safe. You know, I don't see, you know, from 1999, that progression is just constantly going up. And it's going to go up for at least the next 15 years, I believe. You know, when our 15-year-olds and our 10-year-olds are 25 and 30. It's totally safe. And, you know, Pokemon's unprecedented. You know, there's been little tips, little cues here and there business-wise over the last couple decades. Yes, but overall, it's unprecedented. Number one media franchise in the history of the world, right?

1:41:21But there's little determined, you know, little determined things, things that you can go by. The hobby is safe as can be, in my opinion, for the next 10, 15 years easily. And it's probably going to go a lot longer than that. I mean, you know, why do people still talk about Jordan's 1986 rookie? Why do people talk about Mickey Mantle's 1952 rookie? Why do people talk about, you know, cards going back, you know, the early baseball in the late 1800s? If I were to say 100 years from now, you'll be talking about Pokemon, or God willing, any of us are going to be. I wouldn't be exaggerating. Pokemon is safe.

1:42:03Graham Stephan:So this I bought in 2020. It was during one of Logan Paul's box breaks. And I ended up getting a pack for$11 ,000 so I could make a YouTube video on it. And he pulled this Gyarados. And I was too slow to send it to PSA. And then they got inundated. And then the wait went to like six months to a year. And I just held on to it ever since. But this is the card. I want you to tell me honestly what you think this would grade. You know, something really interesting about that time period. you did not grade it for that reason, right? You did not grade it for that reason. Well, there's tens of thousands of people that are not grading anything for that reason.

1:42:46They don't want to wait six months for it. Or they'll send it to a different company in that. So that's one of the problems with PSA. I did get some calls from Joe Orlando years ago that PSA wanted me to be involved with PSA, but I, you know, I didn't. It's a thick, huh? A thick stamp. A thick stamp one.

1:43:13Graham Stephan:I'm really nervous because I don't know what you're going to say. Yeah. Can I take it out? Ooh.

1:43:20Graham Stephan:Literally, it's never been taken out before and I'm like so nervous. It went straight from Logan's hand into the sleeve, and it's been in the sleeve ever since. Right. Okay, well, I'm not going to take it out. It kind of takes one of the areas, the surface blemishes that you can't see. But I can see enough already to see it's not a 10. Why would you say that? Okay, the top to bottom centering on the front is a little bit. It might be within their 60-40 parameters. It might be. But these days, that doesn't seem to matter to them, you know, those numbers. So, and then on the back, the – it's actually really, really nice.

1:44:10The corners and edges, the one little tiny white dot on the top left. But it's not unusual on these to see more than that wrong with it.

1:44:27Okay. Not because it's you. You want honest opinion.

1:44:30Graham Stephan:Honest opinion. I think it is absolutely a very solid nine. Okay. That's my opinion. You don't think there's any chance of it a 10? Or you think like, hey, this is probably a nine? You could be honest with me. I'm not going to be... It is such a solid 9, you can't take away any possibility of a 10 because it's too strong of a 9. And strong 9s do get 10s. So that's what I would say. But it's probably a 9. Yeah, it's probably a 9. Okay. But it's not just a 9. It's a good 9. Okay. Now TAG uses something where they tell you how strong of a 9 it is or how strong of a 10. Is it in the top 10%, top 20 % of nines, top 50 % of nines?

1:45:22This, in my opinion, would come out to be a very strong nine. Does that take away any chance for a 10? Absolutely not. It could absolutely be graded a 10.

1:45:33Graham Stephan:Would you send it to CGC, Beckett, or PSA? I would not send anything to PSA these days. Nothing. uh cgc i would send it to tag okay because it's fun you know it kind of puts the fun back in grading because you're going to see your car you're going to see the the pictures they take of it the in-depth if they say something's wrong they're going to show you where it is and that's fun to see okay you know uh plus it's it's good to know you know where why did they dock it psa is not going to tell you why they docked it and is this card in better shape than logan's illustrator 10 this card is in better shape than his 10 so for what that tells you anything's possible yeah okay i mean i i would not be surprised if it got a 10 because in my opinion it's a very strong nine okay for some of these logan yeah yeah is that is that on the it's on the plastic sleeve it's on the sleeve inside okay he he sent me a whole whole bunch of uh security things that he signed told me put them on anything i want oh that's fun yeah very nice now for some of these restoration services though why wouldn't i just send it to them they fix that little spot on the card and then they like maybe shave down a little like on the top or something like that Like if they're getting good enough, like why wouldn't they just be able to do that by like just a fraction of a like a millimeter?

1:47:14Did I say anything earlier about are those reparate are those would you call reparations? Would they come back? Maybe. Did I mention that? Yeah, you did. I did. Oh, OK. Because there is a there is a chance that some of those things that they're correcting will go bad again. Will go back. Yeah. And I would have to know that before I did that. I wouldn't. I wouldn't send it to have them repair anything. Cool.

1:47:45Graham Stephan:Thank you. I also brought as a thank you to all the channel members, my entire Pokemon collection, for you to review. So if you want to see that, as a big thank you to all the channel members, we'll have that up for you as well. I want to see it. Yes. To end this off, we have some one-word answer questions we've prepared for you. So you just answer with one word. it's rapid fire questions. Let us know what you think. If Logan Paul never entered Pokemon, what would a PSA 10 base set Charizard be worth? 200 ,000. What card do rich people secretly buy that normal collectors cannot afford anymore?

1:48:23Everything comes back to base set Charizards. That's the card everybody wants. And if the people who can afford them, that's in that value range. What's the closest thing that Pokemon has to insider trading? It's kind of like if you asked me some of these questions today where I could move the needle a bit, right? And the whole reason you're asking me that is kind of like you're collaborating with me where you and I are going to really pump up this card or something.

1:48:57Graham Stephan:Like Mars Attacks. Someone goes and buys a whole Mars Attacks collection. Yeah, leave out the Mars Attacks. Otherwise, they're going to be too expensive for you and I to fight over. I know. I don't know about it. Lastly, we got to ask you about your charity. I'm curious, what are the recent developments of it? What are the main goals in the future? And what would you like to share about it? Yeah. Well, you know, I think the greatest story is from the past. You know, from how did that become a priority of mine? It has been my entire life in that. And I'm going to tell you a story of how it started for me, my interest in the charity work.

1:49:41Back in the late 60s, when I was in my mid-teens in that, I was very involved in drugs, in psychedelics and, you know, things that were around. It was common, you know, back then. And I got very sick and I quit. And just to jump ahead for a second, I've been sober to this day. Not a drink, not a drug, nothing, you know, for 50 years. I'm sick, 55 years now, 57 years. But because of that, I got involved in helping other young people that were on the streets. I was from Hollywood, right, you know, Sunset Boulevard and that, and got involved in Narcotics Anonymous and, you know, went through my treatment and did well.

1:50:42and I met a lady that maybe you wouldn't, you would know of her maybe, but not. She was an Academy Award winning actress in 1949 and she was the voice of the devil in Exorcist and that her name was Mercedes McCambridge. She did a lot of work with me with Senate subcommittees and things like that. Me as a teenager and her as an Academy Award-winning actress, we did a lot of things together. And she drove it home, how important it was that I do well and how important it is that I help others do better in that. It also affected my entire life. I've been early for everything in that. And I learned that from her also.

1:51:38So she would come to the house to get me. She would come early, park on the street, and sit there until it was exactly the time to get to the door to come and get me. And she made it clear that, in her opinion, the most important thing you can be is on time. Most important thing. Obviously, there's, you know, extenuating circumstances. But still, I learned that from her. plus I learned the value of charity and how the charity isn't for other people. The charity is for yourself. The charity is for what kind of person you are and that you're going to turn into and the benefits that you're going to experience because of it.

1:52:24And so my entire life, I've been interested in charities. Chris Camillo who you have had on your podcast numerous times one of the best examples of charity that I can think of at least since the beginning was from him he walked up to me at a card show years ago I didn't know him never heard of him he apparently knew of me he walked up to me in the lobby of a hotel with a box. And he said, Gary, this is for you and your charity. At the time, it was Brain Health and Autism with Steve Aoki. And he said, Gary, this box is for you, for your charity, anything you want to do with it. And walked away.

1:53:20A guy I never even saw, I'd never heard of him before, right? A first edition based Pokemon box. even six years ago, that was worth a ton of$100 ,000 or something. No, that was$250 ,000. Yeah, see that? Yep. See that? And, I mean, even now I get misty thinking about it, right? I think it just makes me think, just makes me see the positive side of everything that we're doing and what this is all about. and uh and that ended up growing into pokemon saves the world that we were all involved in together and now you know to get to present day uh my my wife twan honestly she doesn't need to work right she's 50 you know i hope she doesn't mind me saying that but uh she doesn't need to work, but she is a special education teacher, has a master's in special education, and goes in every day, comes home with bite marks and, you know, things like that.

1:54:37But she absolutely loves working with disabled children in that. And again, she doesn't need to do that, right? and then our work with Steve and then through our charity, our autism charity, we also have an autistic daughter, an 11-year-old daughter who has autism. So it's all the shows I go to, my interest in Collecticon, the dollars that came out of that and have come out of that steadily has all gone into our autism charity, autism instruct and and so it's uh it's pretty much been our whole life this last at least 10 years it's been a part of my life for my entire life and you asked about the future uh as as long as i can i'm going to be there for that because it's good for me well that's a very noble cause Yeah.

1:55:40We appreciate that a lot. Yeah. Viewers, if you do want to learn any more about any of the stuff we've spoken about on this podcast, your information will be linked down below. Great. And of course, for the members, we are going to be reviewing Graham's portfolio. Thank you so much for portfolio Pokemon collection. Jack's so used to portfolio. Yeah. Portfolio Pokemon. It might qualify. Okay. Yeah. It might qualify as Pokemon. Graham's Pokemon portfolio. We'll see. You tell me. So you guys will see Graham's$30 in his Poikimon portfolio. Thank you guys so much for watching. Of course, we would not be here.

1:56:14If not for you guys, thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you, Graham. Thank you, Gary. Thank you. Until next time. Until next time. Thank you.