BTC255: Bitcoin Is For Everyone w/ Natalie Brunell (Bitcoin Podcast)

27:15That's like the whole message is for the first time in human history, we have a form of money where the average person can start to accumulate apolitical, globally traded capital to start to have a seat at the table and plan for their lives, their families, drop their time preference. And that's what makes me so excited and also why I think that it's so important to share this message with the average person who feels left behind. Preston Pyshko In the second part of the book, when you're going through explaining Bitcoin from somebody that literally knows nothing to really quite comprehensive overview of how it works, why it works, why it's sustainable, why it's decentralized, all of those things.

27:55I had this moment where I'm listening to all of it. And for whatever reason, I started hearing it from this outsider objective point of view, almost as if I had never heard of Bitcoin. And I'm just thinking through how an outsider that's never heard about any of this stuff would just be hearing it all, the difficulty adjustment and the mining process and all of it. It's a lot to take in. We're talking about it all the time. And to us, like your example at the beginning of the book, The Fish in the Water, I think for us, we're in the space and we're super deep and it's just kind of like, oh yeah, there's a difficulty adjustment.

28:32It happens every two weeks and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like second nature. But when you look at it from that first point of view, like you've never heard of it and you're hearing it for the first time, I would just think that trying to cover the whole thing in the way that you did so well in the book was, I guess my question is, what was the hardest part to explain it in a simple, digestible, organized way? Did you struggle with this part of the book when you were writing it? And if so, what was the hardest part for you to try to piece together as you're making it simple? And trust me, she made it very simple for everybody to understand.

29:11I'm just curious if you had challenges as you were trying to organize all of this, because it's so much to cover. This book was the most challenging, but rewarding project of my entire career. TV news journalism, I've been accustomed to writing two-minute scripts. Two minutes is actually a luxury in television. Usually, I'd have to say the full story in about a minute to a minute and a half. And so having 200 pages, you would think that that's kind of a luxury, but still, Bitcoin is so complicated. I mean, people spend years studying it and it took me years to really, really learn it. So you have to come up with the right analogies that simplify it.

29:52And for the average person who's busy, who doesn't have a degree in economics or engineering, finance, you really have to break it down and distill it in a way that's going to make sense to them and resonate with them. So I feel like, A, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants because I've read every single book in the space, some of them several times. And so I wanted to pull out sort of the lessons and what resonated with me most from sort of each of those works and just give my own spin, my own kind of analogies to them. And also, I have to say, no one does anything great alone. And I had a phenomenal team, Maura Phelan, my book agent, and Alison Gustafson, who's an incredible writer and editor.

30:33We literally had Zoom calls every single week where we poured over every chapter, every word. I mean, words are my currency in the communication industry. And we wanted to make sure, does this word have the wrong connotation? Will people read it this way, this way? You have no idea how much time went into choosing every single word that really went into this book. And it was a very time consuming, but very just amazing, rewarding process, because I really think that we got it right. This is the book that I hope everyone starts their journey with. And again, there are fantastic books in the space.

31:05I hope mine serves as maybe an appetizer for the Bitcoin standard, the big print, inventing Bitcoin, the broken money. But I just really wanted this amazing entry point that someone could say, okay, I get it now. I still have to learn more. It's not like this is the be all end all. You really need to dig in more because some of these topics are so complex, but I want it to be a really approachable entry point. Well, you nailed that. When I was done with the book and I'm thinking, okay, so who does this apply to? It is the broadest audience of somebody that literally knows nothing about finance or economics, but you get them up to speed on the most important issues, in my humble opinion, that could be covered on the topic to clearly define the problem and then clearly define the solution that's out there.

31:51Truly, Natalie, it hits that perfect. So yeah, kudos to you. It's awesome. One of the things that you covered in the book, and I really like this because I don't hear a lot of people talking about this idea, is that the energy is worth it. And you're comparing the energy expense that Bitcoin has versus like, what does this blob of a fiat system cost in energy on an annualized basis as we compare that relative to Bitcoin being a settlement layer? Talk to us a little bit about that idea and just anything else that you have learned through all your interviews and years of covering the space as it relates to energy and why the Bitcoin network is worth it?

32:37So I love that Bitcoin actually changed my perspective on and opened my eyes to the importance of energy itself. Energy is the currency of the universe. And I never really thought about it and how important it is and where our electricity actually comes from, right? I mean, people conflate energy and electricity, and we don't realize that it's what you mentioned on my show, right? And what Luke Roman writes about. It doesn't come from the light switch. There's a whole industry and process that has so many different inputs, and energy really is the most important. It's that first input that defines everything and defines so many of the costs of everything that we have.

33:16And Bitcoin is tied to energy, and it is the one thing that nobody can print. You cannot create it. you cannot destroy it. And that kind of fundamental lesson, I think already kind of you take a step back and you realize, oh, this is something that is way, way bigger than myself and bigger of a concept that I have to dig into because people can just say, oh, something uses too much energy. Well, how does it use that energy and why does it use that energy? And when you dig in, one of the things I share in that chapter is not only does Bitcoin not even use that much energy, especially when you compare it to other industries, and I show kind of the pie chart of different industries.

33:51But also, the way that it uses it actually moves us into a world where we can have more abundance of resources of energy, be able to deploy electricity in even remote places, capture things like stranded or wasted energy. It moves us into a more energy-abundant world. And we need energy. I mean, we see it daily. I think it's funny that now some of the headlines about energy use for Bitcoin have faded because AI is going to use a lot of energy, and I guess everyone's okay with the data centers slurping up energy. But it's a reality that we have to think about these things. And I think, again, you have to break it down simply to the average person because they'll hear these headlines and they get mad at the companies and they don't actually realize what's happening, what it takes, the supply, the demand, the resources.

34:40And I'm trying to connect those dots for people in a more approachable way because, as you can see, I mean, that's one of the biggest conversations right now. How are we going to not just stabilize the grid, but grow it, grow it in a way that meets the demand that we're going to have from all these data centers in an artificial intelligence-driven world. And we're not there yet. And we've really put that on the back burner over the last 20 years. And we can't just like wave our hands and suddenly build up all this infrastructure. It doesn't come from thin air, like the way that we can print units in the system.

35:08We have to build things. We have to have the skilled labor. We have to have the connections to the energy and can't transport. We have to think about all of these inputs. And I think so many of us don't, or they take it for granted. You talk a little bit about the human rights implications of this, particularly on the energy front as well. What was your favorite human rights story that you've... It could be from the book, or it could just be from covering on your podcast through the years as it relates to Bitcoin and just the solution that it's providing? Yeah. I mean, two of my favorites are in the book, Farida and Roya.

35:43I loved their stories. They're such passionate fighters for freedom and empowerment. Roya, I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with her story. I've had her on the show. Alex Gladstein has written about her, but she was the first female tech CEO in Afghanistan and paid her female workers in Bitcoin and even guaranteed that they would not lose money on the Bitcoin that they earned if the price was volatile. And that has allowed many of them to not just achieve financial freedom, but also just achieve freedom in the sense that they aren't tied to a banking system that requires for a man to open an account for them.

36:16They were able to use it, some of them, in order to flee when the Taliban took over again. It truly is a freedom technology. And that's how Farida positions it as well. She's from Togo, but she fleed because of persecution and her family have been outspoken advocates for freedom and for democracy. And their family has faced political violence as a result. And she talks about how the government, it's still a of a relic of colonialism, really what they've done with the money there in the CFA Franc, where the French treasury actually controls the currency in many countries in Africa, and they can devalue people's savings by 50, 100 % overnight.

36:54And that's people's times that just evaporates. You can't get it back. And so she's fighting for people to be able to save in Bitcoin in a hard asset that can't be controlled by the government and to root out the corruption that she's seen in the government. So these are very powerful stories. I think Alex Gladstein says it well, check your financial privilege because as many problems as we have here in the West, there are so many other problems that people face in oppressive regimes and authoritarian countries with inflation crises and currency crises far worse than we've ever seen here in the US.

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41:20I mean, again, Natalie, you cover it, but not in a lot of detail. And I think for a lot of people that show up to this space, they might be like, yeah, but how about Dogecoin? Or how about ETH? Or how about Solana and all these other things? I guess now in the interview, why if somebody's listening to this and that maybe they like some of these other things, and maybe they're very crypto-y. What is your talking point to them, or why is Bitcoin different than these other things that you think is important to cover? Trey Lockerbie Well, I think that Bitcoin is foundational. It's just a transformative technology that, once again, it fulfills the ultimate properties that make for good money that you can save in over the long term.

42:02And I really do focus more on the store of value, especially in the beginning of the book, but then I also expanded out to why it is also a great medium of exchange that allows us to reduce some of the frictions and the gatekeepers and the costs that exist in our current payment systems. But I really wanted to make a conscious focus on Bitcoin. I specifically talk only about Bitcoin. I don't give energy to anything else that's in the space because I believe that Bitcoin is the solution. And I am for Bitcoin. I'm not against anything else. And I think that when you start to speak negatively about pick a company, pick a stock, pick a crypto.

42:38You're just kind of inviting antagonism and you're inviting a debate that I don't want to take part in. If people want to experiment, I think that they should go on a journey. It's one that I think will end in the same conclusion that I came to, which is that Bitcoin is where you want your money. But I just felt like I really wanted this book to be laser focused on Bitcoin. So I don't even, And it's like that saying, I don't even think about you. I don't even think about crypto. I love this idea of not giving energy to something else. But the only reason I bring it up is because I just see so many people that show up to the space from all these other tokens.

43:20And there's just a ton of confusion as to if I was going to argue with my own question, Natalie, and point to why you don't need to. It's you do such a great job of defining the problem upfront. And when you understand the problem, you also will quickly come to the realization that, well, in order to solve that problem, it has to be decentralized from government actors. It has to be tied to something that is scarce and desirable like energy. So you go into a lot of detail explaining the problem and what type of solution would have to exist to satisfy that problem. And you obviously pointed out at the end, but yeah.

44:03I don't exist in a fantasy world where I think everyone's just going to own Bitcoin, right? There are going to be companies. There's going to be real estate. I just want the values to come closer to reality. And I want the economy to be built on something truly of merit, something that we can truly gauge prices with, as opposed to what I believe to be a very chaotic mix of asset classes where I don't think the valuations reflect reality anymore, especially when it comes to these stocks where we're completely untethered from earnings and fundamentals. It's literally just based on liquidity. And I think Stanley Druckenmiller even said that into the 2010s.

44:45It's like, we're untethered. It's all based on what the Federal Reserve does and the liquidity in the system. That's not real value. And you always do such a great job of talking about how there's really no more biodiversity. And we see all these monopolies springing up. It's like we have big pharma and big food and big tech. I actually don't think that those would have as easy of a time rising up and existing in a capitalistic system with actual hard money, with something like Bitcoin at the base layer, because there would be more competition. And you wouldn't just get to rely on your scale and access to cheap credit and your connections to policymakers in order to grow.

45:20You would have to compete based on actual value. And so I hate to look out there and see things like the fast fashion and all the stuff that's made really fast and easy and cheap, as opposed to 100 years ago when things were so quality and we saw it in our buildings and in clothing. Everything felt like it was more quality, right? And it lasted longer. And now we live in this highly fiat, just corrupted world where everything just feels like it has no real value to it. But a few companies have extracted so much wealth from all of us. And I want to reverse that and place it on its head. And I think Bitcoin's the best solution to do that.

46:01I've watched your arc of learning economics over the past five years. And I honestly, Natalie, don't know anybody. And I know the people that listen to your show and have listened to you through the years can also attest to what I'm saying here. You have got up to speed on some of the most complex economic ideas in the past five years. And I'm kind of curious if you had to analyze what helped you from an idea standpoint, what fundamental economic theory or idea helped you kind of accelerate your learning curve the most, or that you think helped you build a mental model that was so effective as you just kind of look at all the different ideas that you've heard or seen through the last five years?

46:49I guess I would have to say Austrian economics. If you would have reversed time 10 years and said to me, hey, so there's this thing called Keynesian economics versus Austrian economics, I'd be like, I have no idea what you just said. I have literally no clue. And those are the types of things I tried to leave out of the book, because I did want to make it really approachable for the average person. But just this idea, again, that really does focus on capital and capital accumulation, dropping your time preference, accumulating capital so that you can use it for something productive in the future.

47:17That's really the basis of capitalism and the importance of property rights to be at the core of that. Because if you don't have property rights intact, you lose so many of your other freedoms. And so many freedoms are second and third order effects from actually being able to hold and control your property. And so I just, I think I had to relearn all the things I learned in school. I had to kind of unpack it from a different angle. And I was always a really good student because my immigrant parents would get really mad if I got a B. So I had to get A's, but I never learned this. I learned history through the lens of wars and battles and empires rising and falling, but never how money affected all of these things, how currency changed, how currency affected these things, the creation of the central bank and the banks of the different nations, like Lords of Easy Money and the Lords of Finance.

48:08I think those are the two books that I also quote in Bitcoin is for Everyone. I mean, those are the types of things where I'm like, how come I didn't learn this in school? How come I didn't learn the history of money? How come I didn't learn about how our banking system actually works? Because that actually does empower you. And so I really encourage people to read because I just didn't read enough. And then I went on this crazy journey as so many of us probably did. You've known it for a while because you were an investor for so long. I didn't. I did not read books about economics or monetary history, but when I did, they really opened my eyes.

48:41Yeah. You've been doing the show for a while now. So let's talk about one of your favorite guests. Who is it and why? That is so tough. This is like a 10-way tie. I mean, you're one of my favorite guests, First of all, I always learn so much from you. I'll share who I feel like just off the top of my head, who I've learned the most from, because I highly recommend people listen to these episodes, including I have some gems at the beginning of my show that I think some people that have started to listen to me maybe two, three years in, they don't realize that at the very beginning of my story, I didn't set out for this to be my full-time career.

49:16I didn't even know that something like that would be possible. All I wanted was to learn about Bitcoin from the people who I was following and studying and whose works I had read or listened to. I just wanted to hear their backstories. Because for me, I don't know if you're like this or any of your viewers or listeners, but I've always found biographies and autobiographies to be incredibly inspiring, especially people who were like rags to riches stories or overcame incredible obstacles. I love hearing those stories. I'm like, wow, if he can do it or she can do it, I can do it. So for me, I was like, I wanted to put kind of a human face to the Bitcoiners that I was following.

49:53It's like, okay, you're talking about the money and you're talking about the technology, but like, who are you people? Like, where did you come from? So I started reaching out and I wanted to hear the life stories of you and Jeff and Lynn and Michael Saylor and all the people who influenced my journey. I wanted to know where they came from, what they wanted to be when they grew up, what made them realize that money's broken, what made them realize that Bitcoin is a great solution. And so I was planning on just doing a couple of episodes, like 12 episodes, and then calling it a day and returning to my news career.

50:27Oh, yeah. And then it just kind of took off and had a life of its own. I didn't realize that there was such an audience for this type of content. And then I kept going. And so over the years, I've had the chance to do more than 300 interviews in this space, which is just incredible, amazing. By the way, that's a lot in that timeline. That's a lot of work. That's a lot of work. Yeah. I ended up leaving my job, taking a chance. I had no clue what would happen, but I've just learned so much from you, from Lynn Alden, who's so just thoughtful and methodical. And it's one of the reasons why I really wanted to send an early copy of the manuscript to her, because I take it as a huge responsibility now that I'm on my own as a disseminator of information.

51:06I need to make sure it's airtight. I don't want someone to read it who's brilliant and has market experience and say, that's not actually how it works. That's not actually how it works. So she got something wrong. I wanted it to be accurate, even though it's highly simplified. And so Lynn read my book, Jeff Booth, who explains so thoughtfully this paradigm shift we're going through and how inflation and deflation actually work and what it means for the future. And Michael Saylor, who has just incredible experience running a public company and is such a student of history himself and can whip out an analogy or a reference from history like no one else I've ever seen.

51:43I mean, it's just, we're so lucky to have these people. And that's why I've said before, I mean, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong on the right team because you guys are all brilliant. I mean, I respect you all so much. So yeah, I've been very blessed. The person I was expecting for you to say is Colonel McGregor. Oh, well, he's my most popular guest. Oh, interesting. I see. I didn't know that. So I'm going to actually read you. Do you know why I say that, Natalie? Is because anytime I've been hanging out with you, you have always brought him up as like, Preston, did you hear this interview with him? It's like, you really need to listen to his conversation.

52:17I think you would really enjoy hearing what he has to say. So I was expecting you to say that. And then I had follow on questions, but you said something different. Well, Colonel McGregor is my most listened to guest. And you guys have very interesting connections with your military background and experience. I feel like he speaks to a lot of the things that you have shared as well when it comes to the military industrial complex and how hollowed out we are at this point, how dependent we are on countries like China for critical minerals and infrastructure. And we can't just build that back up overnight and all the trillions of dollars that we've spent on wars.

52:55And I just find it fascinating to people who literally come from military backgrounds who say, hey, why are we going out and fighting all these people? Why are we spending trillions to kill people? We can actually create a more peaceful system if we focus on fixing the money of all things. And so he read the book, actually, he just read the book. And so he texted me this morning. So I'm going to read it because I'm so proud. He said, Natalie Brunel's Primer on Bitcoin is a must read for Americans who want to survive the developing financial crisis and come out of it with millions. Straightforward and to the point, this is precisely the kind of book investors need today.

53:29So I'm thankful for his endorsement. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, no, on that point though, that you're saying, I completely agree with him. I just don't think that when I look at military leaders, because I know a lot of them still to this day, I mean, classmates that I went to West Point with, I think they're just very delusional in the fact that they don't realize that the reason we've had so much military might is because the US Treasury has been the network effect of the petrodollar system. And it gave us this huge luxury of just being able to go out and spend it at will on anything and everything that we want.

54:07And if that regime is changing, dollar dominance via the petrodollar system, which you and I are of the opinion, and Colonel McGregor seems to be of the opinion as well, is changing, well, then your ability to go out and just buy anything you want is also going to change. And it doesn't seem like anybody. I was literally at a dinner with a guy a couple of nights ago that is still in active duty service. And they do these exercises where it's called a spar, where they're planning out like 25 years into the future. And I asked them, I said, so for a spar, what are you guys using for planning purposes of your costs?

54:47Are you using a 2 % inflation target for 25 years straight. And he goes, just straight face, like, yeah, yeah, that is what we are using. We're still using 2%. And I just burst out and laughing. And he didn't, we don't really talk economics, this guy that I'm referring to. And he just, why is that so funny? And I said, well, I mean, if it's 4%, your prices are going to be drastically different than what you think they are today. And if you're buying 100 units of XYZ, Now you're buying 50 units of XYZ if your inflation is that differential, rough, very rough numbers. But yeah, honestly, I think that the whole defense industrial complex is very delusional as to what the implications of the future money being and the lack of firepower that they were able to pull from, pardon the pun, but that they were able to really kind of harness from the petrodollar system.

55:44is very, very, we're not even getting into the fact that a lot of the raw materials and stuff are coming from countries that aren't your best friend. Exactly. It's crazy. Well, I really, I want to give credit to Luke Groman because Luke has really helped me connect the dots along with you about all of this and how we kind of think of the US dollars backed by the US military. Well, what's the US military backed by, right? Because we rely so much now on China and other countries when it comes to the actual stuff, the real goods that make the equipment that we need. And I love that he's been highlighting our lack of leverage now in critical minerals and rare earth elements that go into every EV and cell phone and military equipment, radar systems, fighter jets, missiles.

56:31We're in a position, and I didn't realize this until reading his newsletter, where we can't go to war. We can't project the conventional power that we once did, because we're going to deplete everything that we have in a matter of 10 days, and we need years to build it back up. And so what does actually back the dollar? Because it seems like our military, the industrial, the industry that created all of those great things that once made us so powerful and so strong has been completely hollowed out and offshored. And we can't just turn on a light switch and reverse 30 years of what we have done offshoring everything, right?

57:05We've financialized the economy and we spent$8 trillion on foreign conflicts that have led us nowhere, that have just inflated away the purchasing power of the average working class person. Meanwhile, China was focused on actually building up its industries and subsidizing workers to have skills like welding and electrical work and building up these industries and energy infrastructure. So they're now far ahead of us and they have a monopoly over refining rare earths. I mean, it's just like, I think the hubris from our political leaders on both sides is just absolutely insane. And that's why I think we need more outlets that are down the middle, really, truly apolitical and a money that's apolitical because both sides are just leading us into total chaos.

57:48100%, Natalie. The irony for me on the, and you're right, Luke has been doing an amazing job highlighting this, but it goes back to this analogy that you have in the book, which is this plane ticket. Everybody can understand this because everybody's had it happen at the airport, right? Like, oh, they overbooked the flights. They promised more than what was there in physical reality, which is the number of seats on the plane. When it comes to the rare earths and all of these raw materials that are the inputs to, and this is the important part, these are complex end items. If you think DO Department of Defense is building just basic trinkets.

58:28They're building the most complex pieces of equipment, whether it's an F-22 fighter or some type of complex type of artillery round or whatever. Submarines, I mean, just think about the complexity of these end items. And when you take raw materials that you're already, you don't have the seat on the plane in the raw material. Now think about the assembly of all the additional components that go into a complex end item and how they all have to be there. It's almost like in order for the plane to take off, every single seat has to be filled. And if there's one seat that's not filled, and I know this was kind of the antithesis of the previous example, but when you're dealing with a complex end item, you need all of the pieces and parts to be there to put it together or else the whole thing won't work.

59:20And so you're combining these two things together, and it's a little scary, to be quite honest with you, where this is all going. Well, truly, I mean, and now that I understand some of these more complex aspects of the shifts in our geopolitical environment and in our economy really truly at the base layer as they try to print more money in order to finance these massive deficits, it's like, if I didn't understand Bitcoin, I would have very little hope like so many people do. Because that's, I mean, you've mentioned it on my last show, right? Where we're moving with artificial intelligence, displacing more and more jobs, and people not really having the mental capacity or the skills to go back to work to what put together these little widgets that are going to go into missiles.

1:00:02Not to mention that those industries, we don't have the regulatory environment that any of those facilities and operations would be easily built here. We're offshored literally everything. We're go to other countries, produce it there, send it back to us. It's like, okay, well, now we've hollowed out our entire country. I had a guest on who I'm going to be sharing, Arnaud Bertrand. Do you know him? He's a geopolitical analyst, very, very popular. He talks about even just one of the critical minerals, gallium, how that's like you'd extract a tiny bit of it out of an aluminum industry that we don't have anymore because we offshored all of our aluminum.

1:00:39So we would have to first rebuild all of our aluminum power. And then we would get a tiny bit of gallium from it, which is needed for a bunch of different things. And it's like, we don't have any of this. You have to rebuild it over 20 years. And how are they going to do that? Obviously, they're going to have to print money and they're going to print to buy commodities and real goods, which means that US treasuries actually aren't worth anything. The commodities and the stuff is worth something. So you need Bitcoin to protect yourself. Preston Pysh Well, Natalie, for the listener, and I don't mean to embarrass you, but I'm going to embarrass you probably a little bit.

1:01:10But for people that don't know Natalie personally, I can tell you, she's the real deal. You're the real deal, Natalie. I'll give you an example. This past week, my wife ended up in the ER and we were coordinating the show and whatnot. And she asked, hey, Preston, how's things going? I said, oh, my wife's in the ER. And that was the end of it. And she was asking how she was doing. And I told her she's doing great. She's back at the house. And by the way, everything's fine for the listener. But it was a week later and these flowers show up to my house. And we got it. There was a card there. I hope my wife's name, I hope you're doing better.

1:01:49But that was it. And so we're going around the neighborhood with all of our friends. We're like, who sent the flowers? Because there wasn't a name there and blah, blah, blah. And so it was like for a week, we were trying to figure out who these flowers were from. And lo and behold, it was Natalie Brunel that sent the flowers. And it just, you know what? For people that don't know you, Natalie, I've known you for years now. This is just who you are. You're just a total giver. You're somebody who's always trying to do the right thing for everybody that's out there. And it is an honor for me to call you a friend.

1:02:24And this book is phenomenal, truly is just phenomenal. And for anybody out there, I'm telling you, if you have a family or a friend that's even remotely curious about Bitcoin and want to understand the problem that's plaguing the world right now, this book does it in spades. If you do buy the book and you enjoy it, I'm telling you, if you want to help Natalie out in any kind of way, the way you help her out is you leave reviews for these kinds of things on Amazon. It helps out a lot. She will not tell you that. I will tell you that. But Natalie, bravo. Amazing job. Give people a handoff if they want to learn more about you or whatever you want to say.

1:03:03But thank you for making time and coming on the show and you hit a home run with the book. Oh my gosh. Well, Preston, thank you so much. I love you and your family so, so, so much. You're so, so, so kind. Thank you for welcoming me into the space. I remember when I met you in person at Safedine's dinner. Okay, guys, wait, quick story. I went to that first Bitcoin conference. I didn't know a soul. I got kicked out of every event that Paula and I tried to go into. It was like, you're not on the list. Okay. But I did pay for Safedine's dinner because I wanted to ask him to come on my show. And I met Preston Pesci.

1:03:35I still have his business card. He was with, you were with Russell, I believe, Russell Okun. And I just introduced myself and And you said you would come on the podcast. And so it's crazy to think of all that's changed since then. But I just thank you for always being so kind to me. You've taught me so much. And I really look up to you, not just as someone who's so successful in the space, but also as the family man that you are. You have a beautiful family. And thank you for the kind words about the book. Thank you, Natalie. All right. Well, folks, you can find it on Amazon. Bitcoin is for everyone.

1:04:08Natalie Burnell, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to follow Bitcoin Fundamentals on your favorite podcast app and never miss out on episodes. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only, before making any decision, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by the Investors Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting. Thank you.