TIP779: Richer, Wiser, Happier Q4 2025 w/ Stig Brodersen & William Green

27:10And before that, we had talked about various things that I was trying to achieve, and he had helped me to write various affirmations. And so he was then feeding those affirmations, I guess, to me while I was in this hypnotized state. And I don't know that I was a really great subject because I think right after that, I had to get a taxi to the airport and fly back to New York where I live. And so I think I was probably like, there was probably a little bit of underlying anxiety about, oh my God, I'm going to have to leave soon. But nonetheless, extraordinary things started to happen to me very soon afterwards in terms of my career and the like.

27:54And I think part of it, as I understand it, is, I guess this was an image that Arnold gave me, is that often we're giving ourselves, our subconscious mind, or whatever language you want to use for this slightly nebulous, vague thing, we're giving it very confused messages, right? Like we say we want to do this, but then our behavior is inconsistent with it, or then we talk to ourselves really brutally, and we doubt ourselves. So there's all this distortion. And I think part of what Arnold was doing was removing that static so that it was as if you were getting a better radio signal. You were broadcasting in a much clearer way to the world.

28:41And so some extraordinarily good things happened to me and continue to happen to me, thank God, after that initial session with Arnold and and after I started to use some of those affirmations. And I think, as you say, one of the important things is to decide upfront what your goal really is and develop a clear and positive goal and hopefully define it fairly narrowly. And so Arnold, for example, early on had been desperate for financial success because he'd grown up in this family where his father had had a lot of financial problems as an immigrant to the US. And so he had this goal where he just wanted to be financially independent so that he wouldn't have to put up with any nonsense from anyone and could kind of be himself, do what he wanted to do, be thoroughly independent.

29:35And so it wasn't necessarily had to be hugely rich. He just wanted enough so that he could live the way he wanted to live. So that was his primary goal. And he still thinks that if you're starting out in life, you really want to get financial independence. But gradually, as he achieved financial independence and way more than that, he realized that the great joy of having a lot of money for him was that he could help other people. And that was really a wonderful feeling to give money away and help lift up other people. And so he gradually shifted his goal to becoming really a kind and loving person who helped a lot of other people.

30:21And this really affects the kind of affirmations you set out as you think about the inputs that are going to get you to your goal. And so part of what happened to Arnold, he collects a lot of quotes and he's constantly reading and then he distills these books and he saves messages from them. And so he's always been deeply influenced by Viktor Frankl, who also was a Holocaust survivor. And Frankl, as Arnold would quote to me, he said, love is the only true pathway to success and fulfillment. He said, love is the ultimate and highest goal to which man can aspire. The salvation of man is through love and in love.

31:02And Arnold also quoted to me this book that I got by a guy called Ashley Montague, who's this British American anthropologist and author, who's a really curious guy. I looked him up, I sort of fell into a rabbit hole and started studying him. He was born in London. His name was originally Israel Ehrenberg. And he actually wrote a biography of Joseph Merrick, The Elephant Man, which inspired the David Lynch movie, which is about 45 years old, which is a great movie. And so later, Ashley Montague, who actually gave himself the full name, having had the first name Israel, changes his name to Montague Francis Ashley Montague.

31:41And so he becomes this sort of posh sounding Brit. And he was obviously a very brilliant guy. And he He wrote a book called The Practice of Love back in, I think, 1975, which I got an old worn out copy of. And this also had a big impact on Arnold. He quotes this a lot. And there's an essay in there called The Pathway to Fulfillment. And I'll read you a quote from it that had an impact on Arnold in deciding he needed to change what his goals were. So Montague said, the most critical of all human needs and abilities is the need and the ability to love. It is the central, the cardinal of all the needs of humankind.

32:15It is only through love that we can achieve fulfillment as a healthy human being. And so one of the things that Montague figured out that had an impact on Arnold is that he said, if you're not actually feeling that loving, what do you actually do to bridge this gap so you become more loving? And he said, the answer is simply to behave as if you were a loving person. And he said, at a certain point, basically, you wake up and it's like, you've done this so much that you've become the person you wanted to be. So you're doing these persistent low-level acts of care, among other things. And so, yeah, so the answer is simply to behave as if you're a loving person, he said.

32:51So anyway, this is to set the stage, this preamble for something kind of important, which happened to Arnold, which is he starts to realize that what makes him happiest is when he shares his ideas, when he shares his wealth, when he shares tools and insights that actually, and books that he buys people and they change other people's lives. And he says, there's no greater satisfaction than that, regardless of how much money you make. It's that the money is just not going to do it. And so what had a really powerful impact on me that I'd learned only in the last six months from Arnold is that at a certain point he changed his own affirmations.

33:34And I love the kind of granular detail of learning what someone says to themselves or a particular tool or technique that they use, because it gives you a sense of something that you can cling on to that is really tangible that can help you in your own life. So for many years, Arnold would say, he would quote this line from Emile Coué, which is every day in every way, I'm getting better and better. And Arnold would get in the shower, for example, he'd have a warm shower and then he'd turn it cold because he became obsessed with Wim Hof. And he would say 30 or 40 times, and he still does this every day in every way, I'm getting better and better.

34:18So he's programming his thinking through affirmations. And he thinks by getting in, making it cold, I guess, in some way you are accessing a kind of different state, whether it's an alpha state or a theta state or whatever, I don't know. He talks a lot about these different states that make you more and more suggestible. And so he's kind of rewiring himself by repeating this stuff. But then he would say again and again throughout the day, and he also believes you should write down your affirmations. So it's very helpful to write them down multiple times that you're kind of pounding them into your subconscious mind.

34:54He would say over and over again, I am happy, healthy, wealthy, and wise. Because he thought, well, these are the four things I want. I've got to be happy. I've got to be healthy. I want to be wealthy and financially free. And I want to be wise. So this had a big impact on me, right? And so I start to borrow some of his affirmations. And then what he said to me is, well, I realized that the ultimate that end goal is the ability to give and receive love. And so he said, once I realized that, I actually had to change my affirmations. And so he said, I realized just being happy, healthy, wealthy, and wise isn't enough.

35:32You've got to be a loving person as well. He said, you've got to be able to give of yourself unconditionally because that's what really brings you joy. So he changed his mantra and he started to say, I am a loving, kind person, and I'm happy, healthy, wealthy, and wise. And he said, that's what he regards as true success, right? Money is not the most important part that to have a happy life, you need love. So that sentence, that new mantra or affirmation of his includes an enormous amount of distilled practical wisdom from this very wise, very thoughtful, very joyful man. And so I started to think, okay, what am I going to do to write down affirmations and then use them regularly, although nowhere near as regularly or systematically as Arnold, so that I can capture this as well.

36:30So I think you want to use your own language that resonates for you. And so I started to play with different things. I'm always wary of kind of saying this stuff in public, and also partly because I never live up to this stuff. But I want to share this because I think it's helpful to our listeners and viewers that they have a sense of the tools, the ingredients in this buffet that they can kind of play with that might help them. And so one thing I started to do was I would say, I'm a kind and compassionate person I'm unconditionally loving. Because I would start to think, well, the Kabbalists who I study, I've studied Kabbalah for maybe 17 years, would always talk about unconditional love.

37:15And David Hawkins talks about as well. He said that to reach 540, which is very high on his scale of consciousness, 540 is unconditional love. So I sort of started to think, okay, so I want to incorporate that, that idea. But then sometimes I would just play with it and I would just say, I'm a kind, loving, and compassionate person, or I'm kind, loving, and compassionate. And then I would add what he said, which is I'm happy, healthy, wealthy, and wise. And then sometimes, and I mix it up, sometimes I would say things like, there's a lesson from Michael Burke I had on the podcast, which it always resonated for me.

37:57And so I would say, I'm a resting place and a conduit for the light of the creator. Because I think in some way, you want to be a conduit for something beyond yourself, beyond the ego. And so this is just a buffet of things that you're trying to use to program your mind. Sometimes I would try to convince myself, I would say things like, I'm happy, healthy, slim, fit, calm, and kind. and I think that was always part of me that would look at myself as I said slim and fit and I'd be like I'm not sure I really believe that you know there's a little bit of resistance but I think I think it's really helpful the repetition is very very helpful and so I would stick these things in a in Habitify this app that I sometimes use that gets you to to kind of come back to your habits every day but I'll go days without even bothering to open the app I'll forget to open it so I'm I mean, in some ways, a terrible role model.

38:55I also would write some of these things in the back of a daily prayer book that I try to use that I don't use every day, but I use several times a week. And so it would be among the last things that I saw in the prayer book for several years. And so one of the things that I wrote that is from my original conversations, I think, with Arnold, which I really like. And again, I don't know, I'm sort of wary of sharing these things with people, but hopefully it's helpful. I wrote, I live in a state of abundance and will always live in a state of abundance. And I deeply appreciate this state of abundance.

39:34Because part of what I'm trying to program myself to believe is not, oh, if I make this amount of money, or I have this amount of money or I have this kind of house or no debt or anything like that, then I'm finally going to be happy and feel free and the like. And so part of what I'm doing there with that statement is I'm telling myself, no, no, I live in a state of abundance and it's not a financial number. It's actually a state. It's a state of abundance or prosperity. And I'll always live in a state of abundance. And I deeply appreciate the state of abundance because I want to wire myself to have deep appreciation for what I already have instead of constantly thinking about what I'm going to have and then it'll be okay.

40:26So those are some of the tools that I use. There's also this really important question that Arnold raises that we discussed a bit of how you actually get into this state of what he would call one-pointedness, one-pointed attention, which is another way of talking about flow states, I guess, which is what he's basically talking about. He's had this great revelation that there are all of these different ways where you're focusing the mind in a kind of extreme way on a single point or object. And so traditionally, it might be the breath, it might be a mantra, it might be visualization, And so you're trying to make the mind more stable.

41:10So it's not wavering. It's not dull. So you're getting into these deep absorption states where you're not distracted as emotions and sensations arise. So you don't get entangled in them. And so you're able to direct your energy into a state of flow. And so Arnold's big revelation in the last year really is that through hypnosis or through breathing techniques or through meditation, you're getting into these very deep states of absorption where the subconscious mind is easier to mold. And so he did it through self-hypnosis. And it's sometimes maddeningly difficult to pin Arnold down when you're in conversation.

41:55And I'm always trying to drag him towards something like really tangible and get him to explain it. And so one of the things that Arnold obviously does is when he wakes up each day, he thanks God for another day for all the blessings in his life. And then he lays his arms down on the mattress of his bed, and I think he starts to count from 100 down to 1 while his arms get heavier. And so this is a technique that he uses every morning to get himself into a kind of flow state, into this state of deep absorption, where he can, I guess, give instructions to his subconscious mind. And I wish that I did that, but I find I often wake up and I do tend to say something in Hebrew that is sort of giving thanks to the fact that you got your soul back, but you have another day that you have another opportunity to live more wisely than you did the previous day, hopefully.

42:51Those aren't the exact words, but it's a phrase that a lot of Jews say every day. And it's kind of beautiful. I'll take a little snippet of it. it goes, And so I'll try to say that every morning. So you're sort of, you're getting yourself in a good state at the very start. And I find I then immediately slip into reading the New York Times or something and seeing what fresh disaster there is. And that takes me out of that state. So this is one of the reasons why I'm such a poor example of how actually to use these techniques. But then there are these other ways of getting yourself into these deep absorption states.

43:33And so one of the things that I've discussed in those podcasts with Arnold is this app Reverie, which is R-E-V-E-R-I, which I've never got super into, but I've subscribed to it multiple times. I still have it and I keep wanting to get deeper into it. I've used it a bunch of times, but it's created by this guy, David Spiegel, who's the associate Chair of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at Stanford and Director of the Stanford Center on Stress and Health and Director of the Center for Integrative Medicine at Stanford University School of Medicine. So this is a guy who's got serious credibility in the medical field.

44:12And so it's curious that he's using hypnosis to deal with things like asthma and stress and insomnia and pain and PTSD and to quit smoking and eat better. And so I think that's worth our listeners and viewers exploring because this is a guy who's been educated at Harvard and Yale, and he's written multiple books. And it's not expensive. It's something like a hundred bucks a year. And it's about getting you into this state of hypnosis, which he calls a naturally occurring state of highly focused attention. The thing that I've used much more often that I've talked about in my episodes with Arnold, which I find kind of ridiculously helpful, almost embarrassingly helpful, is that there's this guy who had a huge impact on Arnold, a guy called Harry Carpenter, who wrote a book called The Genie Within, which Arnold regards as, in many ways, the best single practical guide to using these techniques of training the subconscious mind.

45:12And it is a good book. And for me, it's a little bit hard because he'll literally use phrases like sort of the subconscious crockpot and stuff like that. And even like the title, The Genie Within, like I have a lot of resistance to this stuff as a sort of intellectual snob. Whereas part of Arnold's advantage is that he had no resistance at all. Like he just, you know, he didn't go to university or anything and he just was not an intellectual snob. And so he just used this stuff and it worked. And so I think there is this problem for a lot of cerebral intellectual people is that we're a little bit resistant sometimes to this stuff.

45:50And so we don't get the full benefit to it. But one of the things that I found really helpful is that Harry Carpenter, the author of The Genie Within, has a website, which is thegeniewithin.com. And on there, there are these affirmation CDs. And I ordered these as MP3s. And there's something like 10 bucks each, 10 bucks for the whole thing. It's totally inexpensive. And there's one, it's called Track 2, Attaining the Alpha State Through Progressive Relaxation, which has this metronome sound in the background. And Harry Carpenter talks for about 11, 11 and a half minutes, and it gets you into an alpha state.

46:28And I find that ridiculously helpful. and I've used it a lot. And one of the things that it enables you to do also, the more you do it is he teaches you while in this state of deep absorption to put your thumb and forefinger together and to say something like three, two, one alpha, and you get into that state. And so then you don't need to go through the tape the whole time because just when you want to go into this deep state, there's this kind of physical cue. And then he also has one on getting into theta state, which I think is track three, the theta state routine, which I've used quite a lot, but nowhere near as much as the alpha state one, which I just find very, very helpful.

47:14And so there is this kind of array of techniques that people can use to get into these deep states of absorption. I meditate a lot. I mean, not a huge amount, but I try to meditate several times a week at least. And if I were a little more organized, I would do it every day, but I don't do it quite every day. But I think that gets you in a state of deep absorption where it kind of moves the clouds away a little bit, or at least you see the storm in your own head a little more clearly. So I think all of these techniques enable you to see a little more clearly and to communicate maybe with this deeper part of yourself in a less distorting, static-y kind of way.

47:59But then there are other techniques that Arnold's used over the years that I think are also worth exploring. So he's done a lot with visualization over the years. So there's a guy called J.K. Williams who had a profound impact on him, who wrote, you can make a mental image or a blueprint of the progress and expansion you want to achieve. And by impressing the concept of your objective upon your subconscious mind, you can cause the condition you visualize in your mind to be created. In other words, you create your own reality. And this had such an impact on Arnold, this idea from J.K. Williams of visualization, that he took a photo, I think, from Barron's in 1979 of some very successful looking investor in his beautiful suit and stuff.

48:46And he would just look at this photo again and again, visualizing himself becoming like this guy. So that's another way of impressing upon your subconscious mind what it is you want to become. And then Arnold has also been really careful to try to erase negative thoughts and negative self-talk. And so he has this process where he said he screens his thoughts. And when he has an angry thought or a negative thought, say, he would just erase it because he doesn't want it to make an impression. So if he had a negative thought, he could just say, no, I'm a kind and loving person. Or he could just say, in every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better.

49:31And so he's erasing that negative thought. And this is hard if you're someone like me, who's a writer. And a lot of what we were taught when we were studying English literature or learning to write fiction or whatever it was, was you need to be willing to go explore the dark side of life and let your mind run wild. And so it's difficult, the idea that actually you're kind of controlling your thoughts and you're putting them down this kind of constrained path. But as Arnold said, the first time I interviewed him on my podcast, he said the single most important thing in life is what you believe.

50:10And he said, your belief governs your feelings and your feelings create your attitude and your attitude creates reality. So he became very, very disciplined about controlling what he thought and the messages he put in his subconscious mind. And so, you know, there's one other last point I would make, and sorry that I'm rambling for a long time, but I'm trying to give people sort of some fairly tangible tools here. What you said before about the fact that the subconscious mind can illuminate a path, but it won't walk it for you that you actually have to execute, I think is a really, really important point.

50:48And so Arnold has obviously done a huge amount to reprogram his mind so that he has thoughts that are helpful. But at the same time, he's been ridiculously disciplined and driven. And so he at one point, he basically, I think I may have written about this in the book, he gave up chess because he loved it. And he saw that it was just going to take up too much of his time. And he wanted to focus on investing and becoming a successful investor. And he played golf once and he was like, yeah, this is going to shackle my mind. I can't do this. And so he never played again. So he was very focused on removing distractions.

51:32And this is something I think that he also learned from J.K. Williams, who said, you can have anything you want, providing you are willing to pay the price. And so Arnold really doesn't believe in procrastination either. He would often say to himself, he has this mantra, do it now, do it now. And very disciplined in what he eats. He's vegan. He was very disciplined in his exercise, in his affirmations. He would do yoga the whole time. I mean, I have this video of him that I took in his office when I think he was 77. and he could put his foot on the bookshelf above his head at 77. And he showed me that he could put his legs in lotus position, sort of fully folded over each other.

52:16I mean, I can't do that. I'm in my fifties. And then he could lift himself off the ground on his fingertips. And I asked him recently if he could still do it. And he's like, oh yeah, he can still do it. And so he also would have this rule where he said to me, don't sit when you can stand, don't stand when you can walk, don't walk when you can run, and when there are stairs, climb them. And so I think this is really important, is this idea that it's not enough just to get your mind in a great state. You've got to actually be pretty disciplined in your work. You've got to be pretty driven in your work.

52:52And I wonder in a way, I mean, I think that's probably a pretty big part of why life has gone better for me over the last decade is I'm pretty driven and pretty focused on my work. Like, you know, I'm pretty erratic in using all of these tools, like affirmations or whatever it is. You know, like I'm always solid B minus or C plus or whatever on any of these things that require routine and systematic regular behavior. But I'm pretty obsessive about my work and just always trying to prepare as much as possible and the like. And so I think you need both. I'm not saying one is more important than the other.

53:31I think you need the work, you need the discipline, but you also need to get your mind in the right place. The other thing is also, I would say, not to be so focused on always becoming something, You know, always like, I must be this and then I'm going to be happy. And I think this is one of the great lessons from Arnold as well. When I wrote about him in my book, he said, I'm the richest guy in the world because I'm content with what I have. And so that's another thing I think that's really key is even as you're trying to use all these things like the subconscious mind and affirmations and visualization and mantras and the like to become something more than you are.

54:11I think it's really important to build this muscle of appreciation so that you're content also with what you have. And so I feel like this is something where I actually have made a lot of progress where I'm just, I think partly because I went through periods of my life where things weren't that good, where I was sort of struggling financially or professionally. And it was just, you know, it was just difficult that I just, a lot of the time I just feel sort of overwhelmed with gratitude. And, you know, there's a part of me, you know, historically, like for example, my late grandmother Muriel would have, would, you know, would have been horrified by, you know, it was as if you were sort of tempting, tempting God or tempting fate or tempting, you know, dark forces by saying, you know, I feel so fortunate.

54:55I feel so blessed. And I think that's right. There's a part of me that doesn't want to say that out loud. You know, Michael Berg will often say you want to conceal your blessings. And I think that's true. And at the same time, at least in my own mind, I just want to really be constantly grateful and thankful for the, you know, whether it's the home that you have or the study that you have, where you're surrounded by books or friends that you have or partner that you have or just good health or the fact that, you know, you recovered from something or the fact that you get to learn stuff or do work that you find interesting.

55:33whatever it is, I think you want to kind of build that muscle. And I think that's one thing that I see from Arnold is just this tremendous sense of gratitude and appreciation. And then at the same time, he understands the fact that developing a good character is going to be really key to his happiness. And so he's just really, he'll say things like, you never go wrong doing the right thing. And so he just is such a beautiful embodiment of somebody who's looking to behave decently and kindly. He once wrote a speech called The Power of Commitment, which I think he did entirely using his subconscious mind, and maybe he changed one word or something.

56:12He said in it, if you've treated people with love and respect, and if you've been honest and considerate, giving and enthusiastic, then in return, people will project those same feelings onto you. And so I think part of it is also he clarified that it's about trying to become a good person, be a good person, treat people a particular way, be more loving, be kinder, be more compassionate. And then it makes you joyful. And so it started with the money and the financial independence. And then it grew into something much bigger that he realized was important and that he embodies. And I think that's why he inspires us so much.

56:54So sorry that that took me a while to lay out, but I hope that gives people something to cling on to that they can use in their own lives. There are so many things I want to hit on here, William. Thank you, first of all, for sharing that. You know, I'm just going to do a small detour just to embarrass William, and then I'm actually going to get to my point. I find it to be absolutely astounding how many people I speak to about any subject you can possibly imagine. And then they typically find a way to let me know how wonderful William is. And again, we don't talk about William at all. We don't even talk about value investing or work, or we just talk about anything.

57:41And then suddenly someone would say something really, really nice about William as in, oh, by the way, William is just a wonderful, wonderful person. um so i just wanted to to tell that to you william i i see it all the time and obviously i see it in myself more than anywhere else but but thank you for being so generous in all walks of life and make us all go strong oh i appreciate it i you know it's it's hard for me to receive praise partly because i'm english and we have a lot of self mockery and the like but partly i think it's because I know what a schmuck I am and how badly I behave half the time.

58:23I can say pretty words and eloquent words, but I wouldn't want to give anyone the impression that I live up to this stuff. I'm screwing up the whole time as well and stumbling and confused the whole time. When I'm stressed, I behave poorly. I think what's helpful here is when you find someone like Arnold, who also wouldn't be a perfect human being by any means, but I don't have much better human being than I am. You see what's possible when you behave a particular way and when you understand certain principles, and then you try to be directionally correct despite all of the stumbling and all of the failing and all of the mistakes and all of the ways in which we don't live up to this.

59:08And then as Nick Sleep would say to me, you try to be kind with yourself about the failings and the mistakes. You give yourself a little grace. But I think this is really important because I think it's very easy for us to look at other people and think they've sorted this all out or they've reached a much higher level or they're beyond anger and jealousy and lust and greed. And it's like, no, we're all screwing up the whole time and especially under extreme circumstances. And so I feel like what I'm trying to share and distill from people like Arnold is kind of aspirational. And when I see someone who's much further along the path, who's transformed much more of their ego and their self-interest, it's really, really helpful because it gives us a sense of what the target is.

1:00:00And part of what I like to do is just find patterns where I'm And looking, for example, at Arnold and seeing that the stuff that he's found from his favorite author, James Allen, in a book like From Poverty to Power, he's looking at James Allen. James Allen is talking to you about overcoming selfishness. That that's the way that you're, you know, he'll talk about wage war against self. And that's the way that you're actually going to get to become a disciple of truth and a force for truth that you're overcoming, clinging to self. And then I think of this amazing Tibetan Buddhist teacher that I've learned a huge amount from called Candrula.

1:00:40And she said on this retreat I went on, we are trying to turn self-cherishing into cherishing others. And so it's like, I'm hearing things like that, but it's like, no, I'm still doing a hell of a lot of self-cherishing and I'm not cherishing others. So I'm just trying to make it really clear that it's like, I'm in the remedial program here. Like I'm stumbling and failing the whole time. So if people are saying nice things about me, like I'm very grateful, but I look at myself and I'm like, really? You did that again? You behaved that way again? Really? You still have those emotions? And I just don't want to give anyone the false impression that I've somehow become some super elevated figure.

1:01:20It's like, no, I can distill what more elevated figures have learned, and then I can stumble in that direction. Trey Lockerbie Perhaps you should call this a unique condition being human, William. What do you say about that? No. So William, it was so well articulated, what you learned from Arnold and others. And I used to be a college professor, but please don't hold it against me. So one of the things that they teach us is that we have to figure out how our students learn the best. And there are different ways students learn best. Some are visual or some auditive, whatnot. So one of the challenges that you might hear whenever you are listening to William or to me, or you read a book about someone else, is that we may have a tendency...

1:02:15Well, I shouldn't pull William down to my lower level here, but I might have a tendency to run things through my own filter. And so I tend to be a very auditive person. I've studied or I learned about this technique before about how being visual that you also mentioned before, William. And I know of people who have used clipboards, for example, to become financially independent and then visualize, and it works for them. I'm not a visual person at all. My wife teases me all the time where I don't notice things at all. We could probably get new furniture in in our condo and I wouldn't notice it.

1:02:47But I'm extremely visual. Sorry, I'm very auditive. And so I think as you are exploring this and you might read a book about this and it might have a bias to do a different direction, I would encourage you just not to give up if it doesn't work for you. Perhaps it was just leaning into a technique that is not as natural to you as it might be to the author. And then I would say something that has been, and again, this is running through my own filter. Especially in the beginning, whenever I want to enter a flow state or a deeper state, I would have a guiding voice, probably because I'm auditive.

1:03:23That was helpful for me. And so that goes to what William was going before, where you can listen to the entire tape, but you can also take the essence of that and put it into something physical. For example, I think you said your forefinger to your thumb. And so you sort of would give your mind different different clues. And so, yeah, this is another way for me to say, if this technique doesn't work, perhaps another, and then you learn the technique, and then you can easier go into that state. But it takes some practice just like anything else here in life. I think the other thing that I realized as we were talking, when I think about the techniques that I use, a lot of what I do is a sort of form of prayer where I realized as I'm driving towards my office here where I'm about to talk to you, again, I'm sort of wary of saying what my inner monologue is.

1:04:16but I'm frequently, because I'm trying to get myself in the right state, I'm saying to myself, please help me to be a force for good. Help me shift the balance in the world towards qualities like love, mercy, kindness, compassion, truthfulness. And because I have an awareness of how imperfect and flawed I am, there's this beautiful concept that the Kabbalists teach, which is that you have a perfected soul somewhere. It's sort of like Plato would say, There's this platonic form of you. And so one thing that you can do is you can say, please, let me borrow from my perfected soul. Because beyond time, space, and motion, I'm going to be perfect one day.

1:05:00One day, I'm going to be really elevated. And so the people who are listening and watching shouldn't suffer from the fact that I'm still such a schmuck. So let me borrow from my perfected soul so I can share something that's worthwhile. And so it's very personal, the tools that you use to get yourself in a state where you're shifting the balance. You're sort of increasing the odds that you're going to behave decently and that you're going to have a successful outcome. But I think the setting of intention is just hugely important, you know, to have the motivation to help other people and to be a force for good.

1:05:38I come back to that again and again and again and again. And I think that's hugely powerful because, you know, I see people like Arnold overcoming their own ego or Candela or any of these great teachers, Michael Berg, that all they're doing is trying to lift up other people. And you're like, why are they all happy? You know, what is it that makes you want to be around them? It's that. It's like they've overcome, you know, what Candela would call self-cherishing. And so instead of cherishing themselves, they're cherishing others. And so I think somehow just the repetition of coming back again and again and again to try to shift the consciousness.

1:06:18So it's like, yes, I want to be free from pain and suffering and I want to be happy, but I also want to help other people be free from pain and suffering and to be happy. And so establishing that motivation is huge. And however you can tap into that state, whether it's speaking to yourself or prayers or affirmations, whatever it is, that motivation sets in motion something that's very powerful. I'm absolutely convinced because I see people who tap into it very powerfully in their own behavior. You want to be around Arnold because he just makes you feel better. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors.

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1:10:24This episode will go on for seven days. It's for seven days. No, but it's so, you know, Now, if you want to wrap that up in one sentence, I'm not telling people they have to skip the first part, but it's like, along with the way of saying it, that is why you want to be around Arnold, because of this. And it's such a beautiful thing. And without putting you too much on the spot, so I'll just briefly mention before I go to the next part, but I think it's the same thing I experienced with you and why I'm so excited about speaking with you and why I hear so many people I meet on my way and they're saying the nicest things.

1:10:57And I think if I ask them why they like you, I think I would probably get a million different explanations, but it makes one feel good to be around you. If I could take all of those million explanations and put it into one sentence, which is not fair at all, I'd say it makes you feel good. And I often think about, this is going to sound wrong whenever I say I often think about you whenever I'm in a bad mood. That sounds really, really wrong. So please don't quote me on this, William. But sometimes if I'm under pressure by negative thoughts, which certainly happens, I sometimes think about you as in looking at yourself from the outside and sort of like lifting yourself out of that negative state.

1:11:40And I think you've helped all of us being a, if not a better version of ourselves, then sometimes a less bad version of ourselves, which whenever you're deep down is a very powerful thing. So - Yeah, thank you. That's kind of you to say. Trey Lockerbie, William, I want to transition here to the second part here of the episode, and I've called it, Do We All Want the Same Thing? And for the listeners who might remember that last time we talked about eternal truth, and we talked about how few truths there were that transcended time and culture, they might think, that's a weird thing to discuss. Because today I'll make this bold claim, perhaps wrong claim, but this bold claim that we all want the same things.

1:12:21And I am perhaps going to exclude a fraction of people with their specific diagnoses, I don't know, but I would argue that evolution had made it so that we all want the same things, or at least this is a thesis I would like to test out together with you, William. And so I think much of the conflict we had in the past and we have today is because we want the same things, but it manifests in different ways. And because it happens that way, we found other people to be very different than us, and it creates a lot of conflict. So one of the things that you talked about before is this need to be bigger than ourselves, which to your point, I think you're absolutely right, 100 % right.

1:13:05I also think it materializes different ways. And sometimes we shake our head at other people who just doesn't feel the same way. And so this, I might sound a bit like a simultane whenever I'm saying this, so please take it for what it is. But I've been following the same sports team since I was a kid. And whenever I would meet up with others like myself that apparently get fascinated by people running around on the field, kicking to a ball, I feel it's bigger than me. Many of our listeners go to Omaha, and I would argue that they feel there's something bigger than themselves whenever they're in that stadium.

1:13:40And perhaps they don't think about it in those specific words, but I do think that the need is the same. And so I think it's the same thing whenever it comes to friendships that also materializes in different ways. So this example I came up with here is that, and this might be a cultural bias or perhaps it's a bye-bye, I don't know. But I think if anyone saw a transcript of how I speak with my friends, they would probably be outraged. They would at least think we had a nasty argument, but I'd be the first to say that whenever I can jokingly offend my friends or they can offend me, that's sort of like a signal to how comfortable we are with each other.

1:14:23Whereas if you see me with my friends and we are overly polite, I think you would be like, oh, there must be a newcomer to the group or something because all of a sudden we behave whenever we're together. And so I don't know if that was the best example, but another need that's related to this is this need to be social. Whether that is on Google Meet or whether that's in person, I think it materials in different ways. And we all have that social need. And so let me just tell you this quick story of perhaps how we're wired all differently, but how we want the same. I'm listening to this wonderful podcast and the host of this podcast, he lives three hours away.

1:15:10And I know that he's dealing with an issue. And so for whatever reason, I think I can actually solve this issue for this person. He has no clue who I am. And so I - Wait, you've got to tell us what kind of issue. This is a financial thing, a business thing, an emotional thing? Yeah. So it's mainly a business issue, but it's very tied to his emotions. And it's because I've gone through the same thing and I think I could help with him with that. So I sent him an email and I was like, hey, dude, do you have time to jump on the call? And I don't remember exactly how I wrote it, so it might come off as a sales pitch.

1:15:52I don't know. But I was like saying, hey, please don't pay me anything. But honestly, we're in the same business. I think I can help you. Would you like to jump on an online meeting? I'll talk you through how we solve this. And I want to say I got the weirdest email back because I got an email and he was so offended that I would... And he's an older gentleman and I've only known him as... I've only listened to him in a podcast format, so I never met him. He always seemed super, super nice, but he got so offended that I wanted to meet him online. He was super keen on meeting in person, by the way, who would have to meet in person?

1:16:32But he found it to be such a rude thing to suggest that we could go on an online call because that is not how you meet other people. And so again, I'm not saying this is the best example, but I think we all have this social need. But if I only read it as, this is a guy who's really mad at me, he's really angry at me, I wouldn't have seen much behind it, which is basically, we all have this social need, it just materializes in different ways. And so the last thing I just want to say to this is that think all of us think about what other people think of us. Even though that we were taught from early age, that's probably not how we should be thinking about it.

1:17:14But unless we are literally a baby who only have your basic needs, well, in that case, you probably still think about whenever you get food or whatnot. But no man is an island. Well, I think Hemingway might disagree with me, but who knows? But I want to say that we're all social creatures. And you might point to someone like, I don't know, Elon Musk and be like, oh, he does whatever he wants. He doesn't care. If anyone cares what other people think of him, it's Elon Musk. And perhaps it's not like whenever we are at the prom, you're like, oh, am I cool or am I not cool or whatever? And he has a gazillion amount of money and he can, yeah, but this is a guy who really has to care about what the market thinks of him.

1:17:59So again, it materializes in different ways. And so my point of saying all of this is that I wanted to give the listeners and the viewers a new framework where, especially in a world that's a lot as confusing as the one we're in, where whenever people seem unlike you, they're rarely as different as they appear. They probably want the same things as you do, respect, independence, companionship, love, but the different lies in the shape that it takes. And I try to remember that even though I fail over and over again, but I try to remember that whenever I meet resistance or I feel misunderstood. And instead of turning this other person into an enemy, I try to see it through that framework, which is, I don't know if you know this, but I think that's one of the things I learned from you, William, even if you didn't articulate it in those words.

1:18:56And so that's what I mean whenever I say, sometimes whenever I'm down, I think of you, but I think about you in a good context. Of course, all of this is easier to remember this idea whenever you're calm and you're reflective, and it's much, much harder if you're frustrated and feel misunderstood. But let me throw it over to you, William, and ask you, how do you remind yourself in those moments that this is another fellow human being who wants the same things as you do, or do you challenge the entire premise that you want the same things? No, I think the premise, we all want the same things, is probably, broadly speaking, true.

1:19:38Not because I think it's true, but because people who are much wiser and smarter than me have said it's true. So I often come back to this wonderful line from William James, who is a trailblazer in the world of psychology. I think the story is that he had some students at Radcliffe, the girls at Harvard, who after he had taught them, they sent him a gift, which I think was a potted azalea for Easter. and he was so touched that he wrote them a letter this in in the late 19th century and he said the deepest principle of human nature is the craving to be appreciated and so he was saying that he had written this big psychology textbook and had failed to include in it this really key thing this idea that really what we all crave is to be appreciated and that when they sent him this gift It kind of reminded him, oh, that's what we want.

1:20:38And I think that's a really fundamental understanding about human nature is that we just yearn to be appreciated and understood and recognized and admired. And so I think sometimes I really try to remind myself, the people I'm meeting, they just want to be appreciated. They want you to kind of listen to them and hold space for them. and tell them why you admire them and why you like them. And I think that's a very powerful thing. And my friend, who I hope I'll have on the podcast before too long, who's very wise and thoughtful about these things, has written letters to various people, family members and the like, telling them why he appreciated them so much.

1:21:25And he has a sense of urgency. He's like, well, we don't know how long we'll live. We don't know how long anyone else will live. Say it now. And this kind of inspired me. I wrote a long message to someone recently, a relative, saying why I admired him so much and respected him so much. And I think it had quite a profound effect. I think this person is quite tough, quite strong, and quite unemotional in certain circumstances. Was so deeply touched and said to me that he tried reading it to his wife and actually started to choke up and couldn't read it. And I feel like we have this deep need to matter and to be understood and to be seen and to be heard.

1:22:12And so I think one thing I would encourage our listeners to do, inspired by Yen, is tell people. Write to them, and it's very hard for an Englishman to express emotion and to be sincere. and I did it on, you know, it was like a big round birthday for someone. And so I sort of chose that instead of getting a gift, actually, I probably should have got a gift, but I was too lazy and ungenerous to get a gift. But at least I said, you know, these things that I think probably I had never said, actually, not even probably, definitely I had never said. So I think that's the first thing is like, recognize that people need to be appreciated and try to express appreciation.

1:22:53And then the second thing, someone gave me this book by the Dalai Lama on the Four Noble Truths, and I opened it kind of randomly this morning, which I often do. And I sort of knew what it was I was looking for, but I think it came out on the exact page where he said, it is a fact, a natural fact of life that each one of us has an innate desire to seek happiness and to overcome suffering. And that's a really fundamental Buddhist teaching, right? This idea that we're all the same in that we want to be happy and we don't want to suffer. And so I think there are certain things that are just kind of undeniably true that we share.

1:23:35None of us wants to suffer and all of us want to be happy and we're confused about how to do it and what the causes of suffering are and what the causes of happiness are. And that's one of the reasons why you study things like Tibetan Buddhism, in the case of the Dalai Lama, or where you study someone like Arnold, is so you can figure out, oh, well, these are the causes that create unhappiness. And a lot of it is created by us through our own behavior, not just our external conditions. And these are the causes that reduce suffering. And so help me do more of one and less of the other. So it's really important to have these understandings of what we want and what we don't want and how to get there.

1:24:12And I I think Tibetan Buddhism is hugely helpful on that front. Another thing that I guess is absolutely essential truth of Buddhism is this idea that we're so deeply interconnected and interdependent. There's even this idea, I think, that at some point in some past life, basically everyone has been your mother or your father or your brother or whatever it is. And so we should have this vast compassion for everyone because they took care of us at some point. And whether you think that's literally or metaphorically true, it's a really beautiful attitude that because everyone wants to be happy, everyone wants to avoid suffering, and we're all interconnected and all interdependent, we should be compassionate.

1:24:53We should wish the best for other people. I think that's a really, really helpful basis for being compassionate. And then there are various other practices that I think about quite a lot that I think are kind of helpful for dealing sometimes with difficult people, sometimes just with people who aren't that difficult, but maybe with a difficult one or we're in a bad mood or they just trigger something. And I think this idea that you mentioned before of just seeing things through their lens is hugely important. So I find intellectually, for me, it's reasonably easy to think, here's why they act this way.

1:25:28you know here's why they're acting in a way that i think is really destructive to them or to other people and to understand if i were in their position maybe i'd act the same way so understanding the causes and the conditions that lead people to be the way they are is is really helpful and then i often think about this line from karen berg who was michael berg's mother who is a remarkable teacher who would often say there's so much bad in the best of us and so much good in the worst of us that you really can't judge. And I found that very helpful. Like, you know, there's a sense also from this great Kabbalist, Rav Ashlag, who would say we're all unripened fruit.

1:26:12So it's, you know, at some point we'll ripen and we'll become better and we'll overcome these issues, but we all have this potential for wisdom and kindness and compassion and love and all of these things. So those are really helpful things intellectually for me to remind myself. But then there are these practices that I come across that I think are really, really helpful. So, for example, I think I may have mentioned this book to you before by this woman called Tara Springett, S-P-R-I-N-G-E-T-T. She wrote a book called The Stairway to Heaven, which is subtitled Nine Steps of Consciousness from Unawareness to Full Enlightenment.

1:26:49and she's very interesting. I think she's a therapist living in England, although I have a feeling she's German. I can't remember. And she's an author of multiple books and she's a teacher of Tibetan Buddhism. And she's kind of remarkable. And I think that book is very interesting. It's got a lot of depth to it. She's a little bit critical, not in that book, but elsewhere of David Hawkins, which I disagree with because I think Hawkins is kind of remarkable. But in a way, it's a similar thing of climbing this scale of consciousness. Maybe they're rivals in the battle for enlightenment. But one thing that she does, which I think is a really helpful practice, is she talks about sending love to yourself and others.

1:27:31And so she'll say these phrases like, I wish you to be happy, healthy, and fulfilled in every respect. And she writes in that book, everything grows and develops when enveloped with love. And I think that's true. I think we see it with our kids, but you also see it with difficult relatives or with difficult friends or colleagues that they want to be appreciated. They want to be loved. And so her view is everything becomes better when it's enveloped with love. And so you can kind of send love to people in your own mind, send these thoughts to people in your own mind, whether Whether you believe in this stuff or not, I think it probably works on your own mind to be sending these thoughts to other people, whether it helps them or not.

1:28:17I have my own biases on this front and probably more credulous about it than you are. But I think it's very helpful for the sender as well as the recipient. And my friend Tom Morgan, who runs this community called Leading Edge and has a podcast called Leading Edge, was clearly really affected by this technique. And he interviewed Tara Springett recently. It's a very interesting interview on the Leading Edge podcast. And she talked about this practice and gave it a very slightly different spin than I think I got from the book. So she would talk about imagining a beautiful white light, and then you surround the person with white light, and you visualize it suffusing their heart and their head, their brain, whatever it is.

1:29:01And she would say, I wish you to be happy and healed. And again, as I was saying before, with Arnold's affirmations, I would put this in your own language. So for me, I would probably say, may you be happy, may you be healed. But I think it doesn't matter. It's whatever rings well for you. And so I wish you to be happy and healed. So I think that's really helpful. So you're coming from this place of kindness and compassion and love. And her view is that if you do this for a few days before dealing with a conflict, for example, it's very, very helpful. And there's a very related, powerful teaching.

1:29:40And I think it's probably no accident that Tara Springer has studied a lot of Tibetan Buddhism, but so has Sharon Salzberg, this great Western mindfulness meditation teacher. And so Sharon, who I've had the pleasure of meeting a few times in the last year who's kind of an amazing person she's a master of what's called loving kindness meditation or meta meditation and she has these phrases where she'll say you know she'll picture different people so maybe it's a difficult person maybe it's a benefactor someone who's done you kindness and really helped you maybe it's a neutral person like the person you meet at the checkout counter or you know in your club when you go for lunch or whatever and maybe it's really an antagonist, or maybe it's all beings, and also yourself, and she'll send these wishes to them.

1:30:30And so she's, I think, using her own wording, something that originally, I guess, came from the Buddha. And so she'll say things like, may you be safe, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you live with ease. But also she would say, may I be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with ease. And then may all beings be safe, be happy, be healthy, live with ease. And again, and you can change the language. But I think that's an incredibly powerful practice that has thousands of years of success behind it. And so I think there's sort of this array of practical tools that we've learned from these ancient spiritual traditions that are built on an understanding of the fact that we all need a little love, a little compassion, a little mercy.

1:31:15And I'll finish by saying that I've been really touched by this song recently. I have this ridiculous playlist that I'll confess you. I mean, I have a lot of playlists on Spotify, but I have one that's my funeral playlist. That's a collection of songs that I'm gathering sort of half morbidly and half as a joke, but also actually because I think they're quite profound and beautiful for when I keel over, if I turn out not to be immortal. And the playlist is called Love and Mercy, which is based on this beautiful Brian Wilson song, Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys, but once in a while I hear a new song and it's new to me and it'll get on the funeral playlist.

1:31:55And that's kind of the highest praise. And there's one from this woman, Mary, I think it's Gautier or Mary Gautier, G-A-U-T-I-E-R or E-R, something like that. And it's called Mercy Now. And it's such a beautiful piece of writing, a beautiful piece of singing, kind of melancholy. It's been going through my head again and again. I played it for my son yesterday. And it begins with her saying, I'll read you a couple of paragraphs. But it has this emotional punch that kind of gets you into, maybe it's more powerful than this intellectual discussion of ideas and tools is actually like listening to a song like this.

1:32:32So she says, my father could use a little mercy now. The fruits of his labor fall and rot slowly on the ground. His work is almost over. It won't be long and he won't be around. I love my father and he could use some mercy now. And then in the second stanza, she says, my brother could use a little mercy now. He's a stranger to freedom. He's shackled to his fears and doubts. The pain that he lives in is almost more than living will allow. I love my brother and he could use some mercy now. And then she sort of expands it and she talks about how my church and my country could use a little mercy now.

1:33:08And she explains why. And then she says, every living thing could use a little mercy now. And that to me, I think that concept, you know, I often think like when I have my personal sort of internal monologue and I think, you know, please let me be a force for love, kindness, compassion, mercy, truth, oneness, you know, things like that. The word mercy always comes up for me. And I, other people talk about like love and kindness and compassion, and those all sort of resonate really deeply for me. But for some reason, this concept of mercy is really powerful for me. I think because I have this sense that we all need a little mercy now.

1:33:49We're all deeply flawed and we all screw up and we all are imperfect. And close to an old friend who really kind of blew up his life recently through bad decisions. And this is a really lovely, wise, decent, kind person who's done so much work on himself. And And then it's like, really? You blew up your life? It blew up his marriage, blew up his family, all of these things. And I look at that and I see various people who've sort of in a way like thrown my friend to the wolves and are like, you know, kind of really disappointed in him and upset with him. And I understand that. But I look at it and I'm like, well, it deserves a second chance because we're all idiots and we all do stuff that's stupid.

1:34:34And, you know, so I just think of that line from Mary Gauthier, I guess it is, you know, every living thing could use a little mercy now. If that ain't the truth, if I can go back to this idea here about reducing suffering, I see that in so many walks of life, how we try to reduce suffering and how we very often do ourselves a disservice in the attempt to do so. many things in life come out of good intentions, which is a wonderful thing. But the world just isn't always that kind. I sometimes see that with very successful, financially successful people who have suffered financially in their early years, because it was such a terrible experience.

1:35:25And because they love their kids so much, They do not give their kids a healthy relationship with money, ironically, because they don't want their kids to have the same negative experience with money or the lack of it whenever they started out themselves. The other thing I wanted to talk about is this idea of compassion. And this is something that I feel I've struggled with, but also I've taken an approach that's incredible self-serving. And I feel a bit impish about sharing that with the listeners, because I think that there was something very beautiful about what you said, William, about how we all interconnected and how perhaps we all be each other's fathers or mothers, whether you would take that literally or metaphorically.

1:36:17And especially in an episode where we talk about the compassion and really understanding of people who look through things at different lenses. What I wanted to get at is I had a discussion with Manus Pabrai, our mutual friend, and he referenced a conversation he had with Buffett about meeting other people. And Manus said to Buffett, how can it be that you're such a great character of people? You mean a judge of character? Yes. And so he said he wasn't good at it, but if he walked into a room and this would take it for what it is, metaphorically, he said there'd be a hundred people, three of them would, he would deem them to be terrible people, three of them would be the most wonderful people you ever meet.

1:37:05And then there would be 94 in between, and he would just go with the odds. And he would just go with those three people that he found to be wonderful. And that was sort of like, doesn't sound nice whenever I say that, but I wanted to paint some color around it. If I can use an example with you, William, now that I have the privilege of speaking with you, it was very clear to me the first time I spoke with you that I didn't think about it in those terms because I hadn't been speaking with my ears about this conversation, but I was like, William was one of those three people. Let me hang out with William.

1:37:44William is amazing. why wouldn't I want to hang out with William? Then I'm also thinking, how much of the world's problems should I carry on my shoulder? And should I be around negative people because they need some joy in their lives and try to illuminate a path that would give them a better life? Or should I hang out with William? And you know what, William, I would choose hanging out with you every day. And so I wonder if you can have your cake and eat it too. To me, there are not two opposites where I think you want to be around people who have beautiful values and great character, and then you can still be merciful to the people who might not have the same character, not condemn them, not judge them too harsh, but then also not surround yourself with them.

1:38:37I'm kind of curious to hear how you think about that. yeah it's it's a really interesting question i i mean you remember you remember charlie talking about how you have to get toxic people out of your life and get them out fast and warren said yeah but you know it's good if you can use a little tact and charlie charlie mongren is typically brusque way was like yeah i don't mind a little tact but just get them out fast and so yeah i mean it's difficult but then you know i think they may even have discussed this briefly at the time like or charlie may have referenced this what do you do if the people are in your family what if they're among your friends what if you know so i think whether we like it or not we're going to come across difficult unpleasant people who are struggling who are not at their best.

1:39:29And sometimes there are people we're really close to who are just going through difficult times. And sometimes it's us. We're the one who's really difficult and unpleasant and going through a difficult time, not behaving our best. So I think whether you like it or not, the universe is going to put you in contact with trying people who are going to press your buttons. And this is one of the things that the Kabbalists, I think, are very helpful at talking about is the sense of like, why is this person in your life? What are they supposed to reveal to you? And so I think you want to use the conflict and you want to use the difficult situations and you want to use adversity also as ways to kind of learn stuff about yourself and elevate yourself and improve your behavior.

1:40:22And that's not in contradiction of the fact that you also want to tilt the odds in your favor by hanging out with people who are better than you are, as Warren would say, and avoiding toxic people, as Charlie would say. but I just think people in situations that are difficult are going to come into our lives whatever and to have the attitude that it's in some ways a kind of mental or spiritual gym you know it's like some sort of workout I think this is my daughter's phrase Madeline's phrase where she would talk about a mental gym you know these difficult situations they give you a chance to you know think of Charlie who said at one point I think I quote him on this in in a chapter in my book about him where he said what a good idea it is to treat adversities as an opportunity to behave either well or badly and that he and he said in particular as you get older you get the adversities come thick and fast so it's a really helpful attitude and so i don't know i i think you're right stick with stick with people you admire who help bring out the best in you and life goes better, but then also understand that these really difficult situations are where you improve and work on yourself and difficult people.

1:41:45And I don't know, I think often the easy stuff where you're just with really great people in a really happy circumstance, it's like, yeah, it's great. It's like a gift. It's a blessing, but it's not like, um, it's, uh, you know, you receive the gift, but it's not going to have that big an effect on you in many ways i was very affected many years ago maybe 13 or 14 years ago by a speech that michael berg gave one saturday when i think i was visiting new york from london and he talked about how there's um that these moments where everything's flowing and it's all just happy and good and you just feel great he's like that's just a gift from the creator that's a total gift and he's like just receive it and be grateful for it it's it's great but he said then there are these moments where it's really difficult and it's a real challenge.

1:42:34And he said, it's as if you're a little toddler and the creator lets go of your hand so that you can stumble on your own and learn to walk. And he's like, those times where it's not flowing, where it's difficult, he's like, that's the most important point. That's where you get all of your blessings, because it gives you this chance to really learn and accelerate your progress. And if in those times where it's not flowing and where it is difficult, it's not the circumstance you want, if you can be sharing and kind and loving in those circumstances and go against your nature, against the lesser parts of your nature, the desire to be reactive or angry or intolerant or whatever, you're basically planting these seeds for extraordinary growth.

1:43:25and I love that I think that image you know often we look at those times where we're in a circumstance we really don't want and it's like well wait no I just want to be hanging out with people I really like who I'm learning from and who I admire and so yeah that's really lovely but I think the image that the in in the periods that are the inverse of that the creator is like letting go of your hand and saying you you can walk on your own now I'm going to trust you to walk like a parent of a young toddler. It's whether you believe that there's a creator who's doing this sort of thing, or whether you're just using life, you know, you apply that attitude of like, no, these are the times where I'm learning to walk.

1:44:01These are the times where I'm working on my character. I don't think it really matters, but I think it doesn't help to avoid the difficult situations and the difficult people that are going to press your buttons because they're going to come anyway, and they're going to press your buttons. And so when they do, make sure you use it. It's like we used to say in my family, it sounds like a really dark and sort of slightly unsympathetic thing to say, but during COVID when my wife Lauren and our kids were living together here in New York, we would say, you better not waste a good pandemic. It was like, we better use this to work on ourselves.

1:44:42So we really got fitter. We really exercised. I really meditated. We had a great family relationship. I got so much work done. It was like, don't waste adversity. Yeah, it was a terrible time. And yet, there were things that I think we learned about ourselves, about what we need and who we value. And so, I don't know, is that helpful at all? I think it's very helpful. And I think it goes to this underlying theme here of compassion. William, I was speaking with a friend the other day, and we were talking about Munger of all things. And I know that it's almost blasphemic on the Value Investing podcast to say something that's not nice about Tyler Munger.

1:45:32And I don't think he meant it as something that wasn't nice, but he had a philosophic approach where he said that Munger had beautiful values and he said all the right things. But he also wondered if Munger did the same things whenever times were tough. That listeners of this show would know that there were some very, very tough times for a child when he was younger. And I don't want this to come across as we are faulting anyone who is going through hardship that they have negative thoughts and may or may not blame different people or whoever they would be blaming for that to happen. I think we can all have very negative thoughts.

1:46:13And I wonder if there is an element of truth to all of us playing cards differently because we were dealt different hands. I was reading a book the other day and the neighbor, the author escapes me, but I think he might have come. I think he talks in the book how it wasn't always easy for him as growing up. and he felt there were a lot of people who are more fortunate than him. And he said that kids from poor households don't get a shot. Middle-class kids get one shot. And if they don't succeed, they have to go back and be regular employees. And kids from rich families get an unlimited amount of shots.

1:46:57And whenever they're inevitably going to succeed, they're going to hold commencement speeches about how America is a meritocracy and how it's all about hard work. And he clearly felt really poorly about that. And this is not the podcast to tell whether that's right or wrong, kind of feel that that's a completely different discussion. It was nonetheless his truth, the way I heard it. And so I guess whenever I read that and sort of like trying to tie it to the discussion we have today is that it is sometimes easier to have all the correct emotions and values and the right character. Think of Buffett saying, you know, he never wanted to be in debt because he didn't want to see what he was capable of.

1:47:47So my view is that under certain circumstances, with certain pressures, financial pressures, emotional pressures, unfairness, lawsuits, you know, whatever it is, betrayals, all of I think are capable of behaving really terribly. And so I, I, I don't know. I, I, you, you want to be sorry to interrupt you, but I think, I think you want to be really careful about setting up your, and this is a broader question, but setting up your ecosystem, setting, setting up your life so that you're less likely to be tested. So it's one reason why, you know, you want to live within your means, for example, you don't want a ridiculous amount of debt.

1:48:28You want to work hard you want to work with people who are honest and honorable and you want to try to behave in a decent honorable way so you're less likely to get you know to have your reputation ruined and so you know so i i i think there are things you can do to stack the odds in your favor but i think it's helpful to be aware that under certain circumstances people do terrible things good people do terrible things. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for saying so. And certainly, yes, that is what I was getting at where I think you're absolutely right in what you said. I think that there are probably some circumstances where it's easier to feel the right emotions.

1:49:11But on the other hand, it's also whenever it's not as easy that we really get tested if we do behave the right way. And then if we do not behave the right way, on the other hand, don't beat yourself up too much. you will hopefully get a second chance where you can behave better. Yeah. And before we close out this topic, very much in Charlie's, to Charlie's credit, according to Monish, Charlie never complained. You know, as his eyesight was going, he would just say, well, I might have to learn to read Braille. You know, there was no self-pity. And so, you know, whatever anyone might want to criticize Charlie for, you know, in terms of his bruceness or whatever.

1:49:53I think there's so much to admire there in the stoicism and the sense of honor and the sense of integrity. And I don't think he needs to be a perfect man any more than Arnold needs to be a perfect man for us to look and say, yeah, there's a lot that I want to clone. Thank you for giving me the bridge here to the third and final segment here of the episode. It's So it's about books that have made us richer, wiser, and happier. And if there is someone who I would like clone, it's the author of the book, Joyful Wisdom. And the name of the author is Jungmi Mingyur Rinpoche. And my apologies if I butcher that name.

1:50:31Yeah, I think it's Jungmi Mingyur Rinpoche. Mingyur is, people usually call him Mingyur Rinpoche. Okay. And Rinpoche is such a beautiful word, because as you know, it means precious one. Yes. As I was reading this book, and this is just to display my own ignorance. The first thing was, I Googled the author, which I probably shouldn't, but I Googled the author, and I saw he was brother of Sokdi Rinpoche that you had on the show. And as I was going through the book, I was like, there are so many people named... This is such a big family. There are so many called Rinpoche. It means prescience, one, or it's like an honorific title.

1:51:12Of the many people that are named Rinpoche in the book. They're not all in the same family, I just want to say for the record. And it's such a beautiful book. In one of the first chapters, this is the story I want to highlight because it goes to one of the things that you mentioned before with Arnold. But Mingyur Rinpoche talks about this conversation he had with his teacher, Salye Rinpoche. And as the story it goes, imagine that you are walking down a long, empty road that winds through the mountains of Nepal. And so it's a beautiful road, but everyone warns you that it's a dangerous path because there are bandits hiding in the hills and they're ready to jump at you and rub you if you pass by.

1:51:57Hearing about this, most people never dare to take the first step. Rather, they want to stay where they feel safe and risk not being attacked. Then there are people like the wise traveler. He would do something different. He would walk alone without fear. And when the bandits finally appear because they do, he doesn't run. He simply looks at them and says, I know who you are. I don't want to fight you. I want to hire you as my bodyguards. and Mingui Rinpoche uses this story to show the emotions that we all fear, anxiety, anger, jealousy, sadness. And he talks a lot about in this book, how he has suffered from anxiety and how they've been bandits of his mind.

1:52:43Like most of us, or at least I can join the club here or I can found the club. It's that we spend our lives trying to run away from these thoughts and fight them. But it's whenever we face them, then they lose their power. And so the key takeaway is whenever these thoughts or bandits arrive, don't push them away. Let them walk beside you. I think it's a very beautiful thing. I think his brother, you had on, he referred to them as the beautiful monsters that you're saying hi to. And I wanted to tie that into what you talked about before with Arnold's technique that I have also unsuccessfully tried to implement in my life where I would try to, and it's probably because I don't understand Arnold's technique because I'll imagine he has a very, very good technique, but I would try to push them away and not lean into them.

1:53:37So it sounds like there are two different techniques. And so I was curious to hear, William, how you do it, and whether I would misunderstand how Arnold is saying hi to his beautiful monsters. Yeah, it's a really important insight that I do think there are these two very different techniques. So someone like Sir John Templeton also would use these techniques where he would just immediately reject negative thoughts and cast them back to the darkness that they came from. And if something difficult happened to him. And he had terrible things happen to him. I mean, he lost his first wife in a motorcycle accident and she left him with three young children to raise.

1:54:21So it wasn't like life was always easy, but he would say, this comes to bless me whenever there was something difficult arising in his life. And so that is one approach. And I remember talking to Tony Robbins about this point and there's something about this at the end of, unshakable one of his books where he talks about this technique where before before i'll gobble this a little bit but basically you're killing these negative emotions before they have a chance to grow and kind of spiral he would just replace them with something positive and i remember once getting in a bit of an argument with him and um i was really upset about something and he said and we talked afterwards about how he dealt with it and i could just see you know his eyes like watering up and he's just like suffusing me with love and he said you know sometimes it's really hard to um to access love in these difficult situations but you can access appreciation it's much easier to access appreciation so he's like i was looking at you and accessing sort of appreciation you know he's like here's my friend and he's suffering and so he's sort of replacing he's not allowing negative emotions or thoughts to grow and he's neutralizing them early arnold is not allowing them to take to rent space in his head at all.

1:55:44Templeton wasn't either, it seems like. So there are like these different nuances of how to do it, different techniques for how to get rid of these emotions. I think part of what I love about what Sokni Rinpoche and his brother Mingyu Rinpoche do is this approach of radical non-resistance where everything is free to arise. and as Sokney would say the kindness is non-judging and so you allow all of these negative emotions to arise you don't judge them these difficult sensations there's one guided meditation of his that I sometimes do where he says you know your back hurts and he says wow and so he's like you know now he gets the word wrong instead of saying you're bored he says now you're a little boring you know like you're bored with my meditation and he says you came here for this elevated experience beyond concepts with this great teacher and he's not and he's not providing it and he says don't run away and so it's really beautiful it's like your frustration comes up your painful back comes up and you don't run away you're just with it and Mingyur Rinpoche has a video that I remember watching, I think it's a two-part video that he recorded maybe 12, 14, 15 years ago about how he dealt with his panic.

1:57:03You can find it on YouTube. It's about dealing with panic attacks and stress and anxiety. And he talks about how he used to get panic attacks from the age of, I think, seven or eight. And his father, and Sopran's father was this guy, Tuku Urujian Rinpoche, who was an amazing teacher, this legendary teacher. And he taught Mingya how to deal with all these very difficult emotions. And so instead of avoiding them and turning them into your enemy and saying, oh, this is ruining my life and trying to get rid of it, Mingir, as I understand it, turned the panic into an object of meditation. And so he would befriend it.

1:57:47He would do this kind of calm abiding with the fear, with the panic. And then at times, Sokni talks about this, I think, in Why We Meditate, this book that he wrote with Daniel Goleman and my friend Adam Cain. And there are times where the negative emotion is so much that you have to retreat to a safe place. Maybe you think, okay, well, let me think about a happy experience, a happy memory, that the anxiety is too great. But his basic point is that you don't want panic about panic. You don't want fear of panic or fear of anxiety. And so there's something about this radical non-resistance that's very powerful.

1:58:27But I was just really happy when I heard that you were reading a book by Mingyur Rinpoche, because they're such an amazing family. And this friend of mine, Adam Kane, who helped Sokni, he helped Sokni and Dan Goleman with the Why We Meditate book. And he's a translator for Sokni Rinpoche and Mingyur Rinpoche, and also this teacher, Candela, who's a friend of theirs who I've been studying with, who's unbelievable. And they're all unbelievable. And so Adam had been in Nepal for a couple of months, a year or two ago. He goes there every year, I think. And he'd come back and I said to him, what was one of the most memorable experiences while you were there?

1:59:09And he told me this story that I'll probably gobble a bit, but that's directionally correct, where he had been with Mingyur Rinpoche and Sokni translating for them, although they both speak beautiful English. And he said, usually they're surrounded by people who treat them with great reverence, because they're kind of these holy, very elevated, very enlightened figures. And he said they were with some student who was so difficult and so stressed and so unpleasant and kind of rude. And he said, it was the most wonderful thing to see because he said, the more difficult this lady was, the more unpleasant she was, the more they just kind of melted her with love.

1:59:49And he said, you would just look at their eyes and they're just so full of love and compassion for this woman because they see that she's suffering and that she wouldn't behave this way if she weren't suffering. And so there's something really beautiful about it. And I went to see this interview that my friend Pico Ayer, who's been on the podcast before, did, I think, last spring with this lady called Helen Tvorkov, who's a fantastic writer. She's in her 80s, and she had written a book called Lotus Girl, which is subtitled something like My Life at the Crossroads of Buddhism in America. And she was the editor of a famous Buddhist magazine called Tricycle.

2:00:28And so Pico interviewed Helen Tvorkov, and I actually haven't read this book, Lotus Girl, because I bought it and my wife immediately stole it and loved it so much that she then gave it to someone else. And Helen Torkov is an amazing writer. She ghost wrote a book of Mingyur Rinpoche's. It's a fabulous book. And so she's a terrific writer. And so I said to Pico afterwards, it's so curious that this woman, Helen Torkov, who's like 82 or whatever she was, and has known so many of the great Buddhist teachers, ended up with Mingyur Rinpoche as her teacher. And not only that, but she helped him write this book, it's called In Love with the World, that's about Mingyur going off, I think, in his mid-30s, disappearing from his monastery one night, and just deciding to be a wandering beggar for the next four years, and almost dying of food poisoning.

2:01:22It's an amazing book, and she had written that with him. And so I said to Pico, like, it's really curious that she chose Mingyur Rinpoche of all these teachers to be, you know, he's so much younger than her, for one thing. And so he wrote me this note, and he said, he said, actually, I asked her your question. And he said, he may be back, and he said, she said rather beautifully, purity of heart, and a sincerity that is heartbreaking. So that's what she saw in Mingya. And Helen Torkov said she knows Sokni very well and is very temperamentally drawn to his approach. And I love Sokni. Sokni is so funny and so smart.

2:02:03And she said, but there was something about Mingya Rinpoche's sweetness and depth of understanding that she finds very touching. And I think it's true when you see him speak in that video, for example, he has this kind of high-pitched, sweet voice. and there's something so gentle and so lovely and so kind about him. It's really touching. I love the fact that you're reading his book. I think he's an amazing teacher. So the name of the book is Joyful Wisdom. We'll make sure to link to it in the show notes. It's definitely worth a read. There were two other books I would like to highlight here before I throw it over to you, William.

2:02:42Not really related at all to the first book or to each other. It's more talking about a concept, but the first one is called The New China Playbook by Kiyu Jun. And then the other book is called The Hundred Years' War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi. And it's not necessarily because I want you to read those two books. It might be so that you find those two topics to be the most boring topics or not interesting at all. But the reason why I wanted to mention it is that I often look for books where I tend to have a strong inkling that I disagree with some of the viewpoints. And so why would I do that?

2:03:19I come from that framework where I read books because I want to learn and grow. And I know that I have this terrible tendency to have confirmation bias. And so I would sit in my own echo chamber with people similar to myself, whether it's about life or investing. And I sometimes feel, especially in a world where so many other people are sitting in their own echo chamber, that's probably a dangerous path to be on. And I also want to say for the record, it doesn't mean that now I think that China and Palestine or whatever. I know they're politically sensitive topics, so that's all my intention to talk about.

2:03:58But I think that reading such books give me perhaps a bit more of a nuanced understanding, and I found it just to be healthy to be able to argue the other side, even if their values don't align with necessarily. I'd like to think that we would have less conflict in the world if if that was something we would lean more into, rather than think that everyone is less enlightened or just not as smart as us, if they have different values or different opinions. Perhaps if you studied why they think what they think, you might still strongly disagree with it, but perhaps there have been different experiences that they had in their lives that made them feel a certain way.

2:04:38And so with that being said, I don't really know if that was endorsements of books or not. I think if anything, it was more about the concept of reading books for a specific reason. But I wanted to ask you, William, perhaps if any of these books or just in general, sparked any reflections you want to share with the audience that might be useful to clone, or perhaps any of your own books that you read? I would definitely go deeper on studying anything from Mingyur Rinpoche's family. As I said before, his book, In Love With The World, which is a monk's journey through the Bardos of Living and Dying is really beautiful.

2:05:15Ghost written by Helen Torkov, which has not concealed her role as a ghost writer. But I remember when I read it thinking, God, this book is good. Who the hell ghost wrote this? There's no way. It was so unusually good. And I looked it up and I started to kind of, and it says on the cover with Helen Torkov. And so I started to kind of research who she was. And then when she came out with her memoir, Lotus Girl, which she read a little from and talked about in this talk with Pico at the Asia Society, it just became clear why it was such a good book. But it's also, it's such an amazing story because Mingya, you know, came from such a privileged family.

2:05:56I think never even really had to make tea for himself or carry money or anything like that. And then just leaves one night in the middle of the night to be a kind of holy beggar, a wandering mendicant for years. And so there's something kind of inherently cool about it and has these near-death experiences. So I think he's really well worth reading. And so can his books amazingly well worth reading. He wrote one called Carefree Dignity and one called Open Heart, Open Mind. And I've been reading these really obscure books that are collections of his teachings from the 1990s that were put together by an Australian translator.

2:06:31I don't think they're even really publicly available, but they're kind of like, that family is just astounding. And their father, Tukur Ujian Rinpoche, who taught people like Sam Harris and Dan Goleman, it was just amazing. And he wrote a book called As It Is, that's, as Rav Ashlag would say, this is deeper than deep. They're beautiful books. The books I would mention that I've read recently are actually by Sebastian Junger, J-U-N-G-E-R, who's best known for writing The Perfect Storm, which I haven't yet read. And he's well known as a war reporter for Vanity Fair. And I kind of randomly, I like reading stuff randomly, basically.

2:07:14And so I was in a local bookstore in Tarrytown here in New York, the town next to the one where I live. And I was waiting for my sushi to be prepared. And so I'm kind of wandering around this bookstore and they had a copy of my book. So I signed that. So I was very well disposed towards them. And I see this book by Sebastian Junger from 2016 that's called Tribe. And the subtitle is On Homecoming and Belonging. And a lot of it is about soldiers coming back from war. And he's obviously spent a great deal of time in Afghanistan and Iraq with soldiers in extremely dangerous situations. and one of the things that he's surprised by is, well, obviously we all know that there's a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder among soldiers, but he said a lot of them really weirdly miss war because what, and they find it incredibly hard to settle back in society because there's something kind of magical about the connections with their fellow soldiers, the sense of meaning, the sense of belonging.

2:08:18And so this becomes an exploration of how in modern society, we've lost the power of personal connections with other members of our tribe, and we've become kind of isolated from our wider communities. And this is something that he was writing back in 2016, before the kind of extreme political polarization that we've seen separating decent people on all sides before we saw the rise of remote work that separated us more from the office, before the rise of every screen and app and AI tool that I think has made us more reliant on our phones and our computers and our iPads and the like. And so one of the things he talks about is that with these gains in affluence and comfort and safety that we've seen in wealthy societies, there's actually been this surprising increase in depression and loneliness and anxiety.

2:09:17And he says, humans don't mind hardship. In fact, they thrive on it. What they mind is not feeling necessary. Modern society has perfected the art of making people not feel necessary. It's time for that to end. And so he tells a couple of really beautiful stories. One of them in the introduction that I actually, I told it to my masterclass the other day in the first session that I had with them. And then I told it to my daughter when we were driving to Boston the other day for Thanksgiving. And actually, when I told it to her, I got so choked up that I had to sort of stop. It was kind of embarrassing.

2:09:51But it's a beautiful story that I'll spare you, but that I want people to go read. But I'll focus actually on a story at the very end of the book, which is really beautiful, which is in the postscript, and it kind of echoes that first story. and he talks about this anthropologist called Eleanor Leacock who had spent all his time with Cree Indians in Canada and so she's on this hunting trip with this one Cree and he meets these two strangers who'd run out of food and were in real trouble and he gives them all of his food all of his flour and his lard I think it was and that means he's going to have to cut his hunting trip short.

2:10:33And this anthropologist is asking him, you know, what the hell were you doing? Why did you do that? You know, now you're not going to be able to go on your trip. And he gets kind of frustrated with her. And then finally says, basically, if he didn't give him his food, the phrase he uses is, he says, just dead inside. And there's something so beautiful about the story, just this recognition of our interdependence and his sense that if he didn't help these people who were in need, he was just dead inside. And the first story, the one that I'm not going to tell you is great, like it's sort of about the same thing.

2:11:12It's kind of a homeless guy seeing him and taking care of him and saying, you know, I saw you and I wondered if you were okay. And the homeless guy takes care of him as a young man. And so it's sort of about this part of us that I think needs nourishing. And the reason I mentioned it to my masterclass is that I think in some way we have to create containers that enable us to build relationships with each other and to get this depth of interpersonal connection that I think we've somehow lost because of the privilege of our society. And I like sitting quietly on my own in my study and reading. And I like the fact that you and I can do this over a screen from thousands of miles apart, but that we need that personal connection.

2:12:03And then this led me to another of Junger's books, which I've been reading over the last few days, and I'm not yet finished with, but I'm about 100 pages through, which is called In My Time of Dying, which is a great title. And the subtitle is How I Came face-to-face with the idea of an afterlife. And one of the things that's kind of remarkable about this book is Junger is kind of this very pragmatic, tough, war-hardened guy, right, who's seen everything. And he has this experience that almost totally undoes his rational mind in a really interesting way. And so I think he must have been about 56, and he had had kids very late, So he got married and has these two young daughters.

2:12:50And one day he has this dream where he's kind of hovering overhead and his wife and his daughters are sobbing beyond reach down below him. And he's aware in this dream that he's died carelessly, which must be very resonant for a guy who's been a war reporter and has put himself in all sorts of danger and a surfer and the like, you know, kind of a danger junkie in some ways. And in this dream, he can't comfort them. And then 36 hours later, after this very strange dream that's sort of a premonition of his death and leaving his kids and his wife, he has this rupture in his abdomen. And he's, I think, about an hour and a half away from the hospital.

2:13:36And he ends up almost bleeding out and dying. And he talks in great detail about this near-death experience. and his father was an MIT trained physicist who is brilliant and very rational guy who had been dead for eight years and as Sebastian Junger is lying there kind of in and out of consciousness and right on the border of death he sees his father as kind of some sort of force hovering above the left side of his bed and he said it seemed like his father was saying it's okay There's nothing to be scared of. Don't fight it. I'll take care of you. And so this whole experience leads, and some other experiences, lead Junger to start looking into all of these near-death experiences that you can't quite explain.

2:14:27So for example, there's an amazing story. I remember him talking about on a podcast as well. I think probably on the Fresh Air podcast, where there's a woman in a coma after a drug overdose. and when she comes out of the coma, she knows things that you just couldn't have known. Like, for example, she knew that the doctor had been speaking to her roommate in the waiting room at the emergency room and she knew that the doctor had some sort of stain on his tie and the doctor over lunch had been eating spaghetti sauce and had splattered his tie and then he was in a rush so he does up his white lab coat so it obscures the stain so it's not visible to anyone and somehow this woman in her coma has been sort of hovering around observing what's going on and so there's this lovely line where junger says that the problem with rationality is that things keep happening that you can't explain and i love this because i kind of i kind of like uncertainty i like the fact that things are unknowable and things are complex and things are contradictory and i often think there's there's this beautiful line in hamlet where hamlet's um father who's dead has appeared as a ghost i think to the night watchman and um and he says to his friend horatio there are more things in heaven and earth horatio than a dreamt of in your philosophy and i i always come back to that i mean i come back to that at least once every couple of weeks, that idea from Shakespeare is sort of part of my inner monologue, just on the limits of our knowledge and our rationality.

2:16:10And, you know, Shakespeare knew this back in like 1603 or whatever, when Hamlet first started to be performed. And it's good to read these things that are kind of not central to what we do necessarily, but that remind us a little bit of these ideas that we often ignore. And it's all, as Charlie would say, everything is one damn relatedness after another. And so I think of Templeton, for example, who would say how little we know, how eager to learn. And so I think in a way it connects to your two books that you read that you don't necessarily agree with, but that broaden the mind and challenge your preconceptions.

2:16:51And I think that's a very useful thing for an investor, but I think it's for a useful thing for a human, just to have this sense of like, what do I know with my little pea brain and my limited perspective on everything? And so it's just, it's kind of humbling and mind expanding. And so I don't know, they're not books that you have to read. But I think with both of these Sebastian Jungler books, they, partly because he's such a good writer, they get under your skin. And I was happy over Thanksgiving, I mentioned this to my brother-in-law, who's a psychiatrist at the Veterans Administration. And I told him I had read Tribe, and I sort of wondered if he would be kind of dismissive of it.

2:17:37And he was like, no, Sebastian Junger came on rounds with us at the hospital, and he said he was absolutely wonderful. And he said he listened to the questions from the veterans with such compassion and such respect and was just kind of remarkable. And so maybe that's the theme that we just keep coming back to unconsciously and unintentionally throughout this episode is that, you know, as that song says, you know, everybody needs a little mercy now. And so all of these books, all of these investors that we're talking about, the Arnolds and the like, they show you a kind of better way to be a little more open-minded, a little bit more compassionate, a little bit more understanding.

2:18:22And so they're sort of, I don't know, I like the fact that there's some probably intentional on your part, but unintentional on mine kind of connection between a lot of the things that we've discussed today. I can't think of a better way to end with we all need a lidon. bit of mercy. That's so beautiful. Thank you for bringing that into our lives. Thank you. It's been a great pleasure chatting with you. I really enjoyed this conversation, as with all of my conversations with you. But this one, I feel like we touched on some important stuff here.

2:19:21Thank you.