TIP836: Exor NV (EXO): The Massive Discount Continues To Widen w/ Kyle Grieve & Shawn O’Malley

25:41So if Ferrari is still selling the same amount of cars, what else could be spooking the market? Perhaps it's the mix of cars. We know, Sean, that all Ferraris are expensive. But even when you look at Ferraris, some are much more expensive than others. So perhaps the mix this quarter was weaker than last and maybe the margins dropped. That would be something I could see happening. But this also doesn't seem right either since EBITDA margins actually increased from about 39 % to 40%. So in reality, it just seems that the market has somewhat changed its mood on this business just because of the Luce announcement.

26:12And in October, the company did actually release its five-year outlook. And the implied revenue growth that they're targeting over the next couple of years is something like 5 % a year. And clearly for a stock priced at 60 times earnings at one point, they were expecting a much higher growth rate well into the future. So the speed with which Ferrari has seemingly become a mature business, I think was a surprise to the market. And that definitely makes the sell-off at least partially justified, right? If your expectations of future growth in terms of what management is telling you, what they think is likely to happen, have been significantly curtailed, then of course the market is not going to pay a massive premium for the business.

26:55And they also, I think, took some of the excitement out of the Luce release because they've already revised down their percentage of their model lineup that they expect to be electric vehicles by 2030 from 40 % to 20%. So they cut that expectation in half. And even if you don't hate the Luce, Ferrari has clearly signaled that electric vehicles won't be as big of a bet for them as they once thought. After sinking a lot of resources and R &D into that area. And then just generally, a lot of luxury stocks have been beaten down because China is one of the largest luxury markets in the world. And there's been a pretty clear slowdown in luxury spending going on over there.

27:35And it might be cyclical, but still, it's a headwind that's definitely not doing Ferrari any favors in the immediate future. Yeah. I mean, to me, it really feels like the market is discounting the demand for the Luce. Perhaps they're really just focusing on what the press releases are saying about the business, rather than maybe zooming out a little bit and seeing Ferrari for what it really is, which is a strong luxury car brand continuing to sell cars at very expensive prices. But if you read what former Ferrari CEO Luca Di Montezellimo said, you'd think Luce spelt Ferrari's death sentence. So he said, if I were to say what I really think, I'd be doing Ferrari a disservice.

28:08We risk destroying a legend. And I'm truly sorry about that. I hope they at least remove the prancing horse from that car. Now, one of the complaints that I remember that Daniel shared with us about Ferrari after the Luce was announced was that he felt that the brand would actually be hurt by the Luce. He said that he spoke with a few Ferrari owners that he knew. And the general feeling was that the Ferrari owners that he spoke to likely were not going to spend any money on buying a Luce. Now, since Ferrari has historically gotten repeat sales from about 85 % of its customers, if the Luce had little demand from its current customers, it just wouldn't end up selling very well.

28:44It's pretty harsh words to hear from a former CEO of Ferrari. And I always had a bit of an issue with this take because I think Ferrari is, with the Luce, trying to fundamentally expand their customer base. And customer loyalty and retention has been an incredible strength of the business. One of the things that drew us to investing in the company and why we refer to it as being such a high quality business. But there's also a recognition that if you're going to keep growing earnings at double digit rates, they do need to probably reach new types of customers ultimately. So their total number of vehicle sales has been relatively flat for a few years now.

29:25And the market is definitely not going to keep a 60 times earnings multiple on that forever. So to me, that explains a lot of the re-rating too, even if for the time being, Ferrari has been able to make up for flat volumes with price hikes. The thinking is that price hikes can't drive the business forever because it's just not sustainable. And reading between the lines a bit, to me, the Luce is a car, again, that is meant to appeal to a more tech forward cohort, a different type of group than Ferrari's core customer demographic. Ferrari has always focused on internal combustion engine vehicles.

30:03And so buying an electric car was probably not going to resonate ever with many of their core customers. But for better or worse, that is sort of the point of why you launch an electric vehicle. If the Luce attracts a new type of customer to Ferrari that has never bought a Ferrari before, well, the core customers keep coming back for traditional Ferrari styles. And despite all the market narrative and all the drama, that would be good for the business. And so it's important to remember that so many of Ferrari's cars are sold to repeat customers. And we actually have pretty good data on how many annual buyers Ferrari has.

30:39And it's somewhere around 14 ,000 individuals. And that's just an insanely small number to underpin a$70 billion market cap company. But with the Luce, I think they are moving towards trying to attract more EV-focused buyers, obviously, who want an electric car with the aura of Ferrari. And so I could see it doing well in Silicon Valley or maybe in China, right? people there might be very attracted to the Luce in these more cutting edge tech type cities. Right. China seems like a market. They were clearly targeting with the Luce. And it appears that Ferrari allocated somewhere around 90 Luce units for the Chinese market.

31:17So I actually read an article while researching this episode in the Car News China, and it was published sometime in late June, about a month after the Luce was announced. Now, interestingly, the Luce in China was sold for a small 7 % discount to the European price, but we're still talking about a$590 ,000 car here. So it's not like the 60 % discount we got from buying Ferrari through Exor. But the point here is that the car is actually sold out according to that article after a month, just a month in China. So I think that's a pretty good signal that chances are it's probably going to do well in other geographies as well.

31:51Now, Ferrari CEO Benedetto Vigna has said that they They have received orders from both current and new customers. But more importantly, he said the order book is actually extending out towards the end of 2027, which to me signifies that there's a pretty healthy amount of demand for the Luce. Yeah, that's the kind of validation that you would want to see to ensure that a Ferrari thesis is still on track, even if the stock price hasn't been kind to us. And just to give you a quick overview of what we outlined as our expectations when valuing Ferrari, some of those key performance indicators over the next five years were expecting about 1 % to 2 % volume growth a year, not super ambitious, 7 % total revenue growth.

32:31So that includes about 5 % a year on price, and then 1 % to 2 % on volume growth. And then R &D as a result of the really great operating leverage that this business has falling toward 13 % of sales. and then operating margins correspondingly expanding to 30 % in our terminal year in the model. So not to bog you down with numbers too much, but for anybody curious, that was sort of the numbers we were using. And if all that were to happen, we expected earnings per share to be able to grow in the low double digits each year for several more years going forward. And again, those are sort of the assumptions that we used when underwriting Ferrari's intrinsic value.

33:14Yeah, that's a great refresher. So let's have a look at where we stand today. So keep in mind, this will be a much more powerful exercise the longer we are out from the initial thesis. But even in the shorter six-month term, I still think that we can get some pretty decent signals. So first is volume growth. We haven't really seen this move all that much. I did mention that on an annualized basis, volume could reach an all-time high of something around 13 ,744, which would represent a volume increase of about 2 % over 2025. However, if we look at the quarterly numbers for car shipments, they tend to be more heavily weighted to the front of the year in that Q1, and then they gradually decrease as the year continues.

33:53So given the Q1 2026 numbers is actually lower than both 2025 and 2024, volume may actually slightly contract in fiscal 2026. It's probably not the most inspiring start to our Ferrari ownership, but also the percentage rates feel more arbitrary when you think that literally an extra 50 vehicle sales could materially move sales volume trends. And so we're not talking about a huge number of vehicles that need to be sold. And at a very high level, I do think there will be more and more wealthy people that want to own Ferraris over time. And so that gives me pretty good confidence in saying that yes, sales volumes will continue to grow in any given year though, or maybe for the next few years.

34:37sure, volumes could definitely be flat or decline modestly. And I can't say with any certainty what would happen. And I'd also say, and this is a bit of a separate conversation, but part of what we liked with the Exer setup is that Ferrari doesn't necessarily need to have incredible growth for an investment in Exer to potentially work out well. Ferrari just needs to perform decently while we wait for some mean reversion and Exer's discount to NAV, probably driven by buybacks that I've alluded to earlier, are some of their other investments beginning to bear fruit as well. Because when you're buying Exer, you can think of it as either getting a discount on Ferrari or paying full price for Ferrari, but getting a bunch of these other investments that they own on their balance sheet for free, and you're getting free call options on those businesses.

35:23So if those other investments begin to bear fruit, then you could definitely theoretically do very well from betting on Exeter because to at least some extent, the stock price has to follow the net asset value. Even if there can be fluctuations in how big the discount is, they certainly aren't going to go in opposite directions long-term. Yeah. I mean, that's really the beautiful part about buying stocks that are cheap, right? I mean, when you have a cheap stock, theoretically, that business can basically do absolutely nothing more than what it's doing today. So the intrinsic value doesn't really change.

35:57But as long as you get some sort of expansion and whether that's in its multiple or if that in this case with XOR, the NAV and the share price close, well, there's your return right there. And it kind of simplifies things, which I always really appreciate about an investment thesis. So let's get back to some of these KPIs here. So the second KPI was based around revenue growth. And the assumption there are kind of in that 6 % to 7 % range per year. And since we didn't really expect much in terms of volume growth, the assumption here was based a lot on the pricing power of Ferrari, which Sean alluded to.

36:28And Ferrari very clearly has pricing powers. I think Sean and Daniel did a really good job of portraying in their episode on that business. So looking at the numbers just from 2017 until now, the average revenue per unit has increased very drastically from about 239 ,000 to 446 ,000. And this is why Ferrari doesn't necessarily have to increase its volume. That's a 5 % kegger just in its ability to increase its price. So this is just the beauty of luxury. If Ferrari decides it wants to keep its volume stable, all they need to do is increase their prices by 5 % per year, and they'll get that 5 % rise in revenue per year without any changes to their input costs.

37:07And because you don't have changes to your input costs while you're charging more and more money, you get that beautiful operating leverage effect. Yeah. So I would say, I think management is maybe being a little modest when they say that they're targeting 5 % revenue growth per year over the next five years. I think they're setting a low bar. But if that is true, then obviously we would have slightly overstated their revenue compounding. But still, there is an operating leverage benefit most likely here. And so that goes into this third and fourth KPI that we talked about in terms of R &D as a percentage of sales and an expansion of operating margins correspondingly.

37:48And for the latest quarter, R &D as a percentage of sales has actually tracked our initial assumption of about 13%. So that's a nice green light there to see. And the thing is, is someone wealthy enough to buy a Ferrari? I mean, what is an extra 5 % in price? That's probably not going to dissuade them at all because of course there's a massive amount of price insensitivity because you're dealing with ultra wealthy customers that are thinking about buying Ferrari. So I should also mention that in the show notes, we'll have a link to our Ferrari model in case you want to see all the different ways that we tried to value the business and the different assumptions that we used, kind of underpinning what we're talking about here.

38:28And in terms of the target operating margins, our assumption was that by the end of 2029, they'd have about 30 % operating profit. And Ferrari is already about a half a percent away from that. Given the pricing power they have and the fact that management gave guidance of 29.5%, I would say that we have a lot of conviction in them hitting that 30 % target and maybe probably even surpassing it, making up for the fact that we might be slightly over-optimistic on the revenue compounding side. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I kind of feel like management is kind of sandbagging the revenue number.

39:06I mean, the only way I can see it, it doesn't rise by 5 % is if they meaningfully decide to lower their volume, which doesn't really seem like they're going to do that that much. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see. But yeah, I mean, just going back and looking at the numbers from the original Ferrari thesis, they all seem very, very achievable, I would say. So I'm very confident in what that model is at right now. So needless to say, we've spent a lot of time here on the Luce, but it's also important to understand that it's actually not the only car that has been introduced to Ferrari's lineup.

39:34So in 2026, they introduced two other cars, the Testarossa Spider and the Amalfi Spider. The Testarossa Spider is a hybrid with over a thousand horsepower and the ability to accelerate from zero to 100 in just 2.3 seconds. These models are going for about $600 ,000 and higher. And then the Amalfi Spider is a two-door convertible and it's definitely not as powerful as a Testarossa, but when it comes to Ferrari, that's all relative given just how ridiculously powerful and fast these cars are. So the Amalfi Spider comes in at a price point below$300 ,000. And interestingly, one thing I remember reading when I was looking at some of the reviews of the Amalfi Spider was that they're seeing it as an entry level car for Ferrari.

40:15And just given the price point of it, I can see that because obviously, like I said, the average purchase price for a Ferrari is somewhere around$450 ,000. So the fact that their price is at 300K, maybe that goes to show that maybe they want to start getting some people that maybe don't have quite as much money to spend$4 million on a Ferrari, but do have$300 ,000 to spend on a Ferrari. So that'll be kind of an interesting point to follow over time. Usually, these cars stay in the manufacturing ecosystem for about five years. So it'll be interesting to see how many units of this they sell. Well, there you go, folks.

40:46For the humble price of$300 ,000, you can be a Ferrari owner. I think both of the models look pretty incredible to me. But to be fair, I'm not the target customer, unfortunately, not even the target customer for their entry-level vehicle. So it doesn't really matter what I think. But I also haven't had too much of a chance to look at the demand for these two models specifically. And I know Ferrari doesn't really release too much information on that kind of thing either. So were you able to come up with how Ferrari's current customers are thinking about these two new releases? Are they being received well from what you've come across?

41:26unfortunately, not really to the same extent as the Luce. I wasn't really able to find any specific geography that was claiming that these cars were on some sort of long wait list or even sold out. Now, that doesn't mean that isn't the case, but these two models just haven't quite had the same fanfare as a Luce. So you can see why they might not be as closely investigated compared to the Luce. Well, just to revisit one of your points about the unit volumes that we mentioned a few minutes ago. I want to do so because I think it's important. 2026 was the first year since 2020 that Ferrari released four new models in a given year.

42:01In a lot of years, it's one or two models, maybe three at most. So they are bringing a lot of models to market, and that reflects definitely more CapEx spending and R &D spending on producing those vehicles. And another thing that's important to consider about Ferrari's output is how that relates to customer demand. And so I see 2026 as being kind of a hangover year where you go from having a few models to where you're offering significantly more models. And of course, the production process is going to have to ramp up to catch up with that. And so whenever Ferrari has a new model, they generally tend to ramp up production over time.

42:43And here's what Ferrari's CEO said on the latest earnings call? For EMEA, well, I think that you may remember in the last call, Antonio said that we have different models in ramp-up phase. So there are different dynamics, a different kind of demand from different clients in different parts of the world. So there is nothing, let me say, that was not planned. If not, the fact that we are ramping up a lot of new models, the one that we launched in the last year. So everything is proceeding as planned. Yeah, thanks for calling that out. So since Ferrari doesn't have to manufacture, you know, millions of vehicles, like the majority of other auto manufacturers, they're very, very intentional about the ramp up of their newer units.

43:34So newer models tend to be a little slower on the production side, and then they ramp up before hitting kind of a full cadence more towards the end life of that model. So the logic behind this is to focus on what I mentioned a little earlier, which is the point on scarcity. For instance, with the Ferrari F80, Ferrari is only manufacturing 799 units of that car in total. Now that's not per year, but in total. So this means that the car is just incredibly rare and will only be offered to Ferrari's customers in the absolute best standing. And the price tag on the F80 is in the$4 million range. So I agree with you on that volume comment.

44:08Ferrari, I think, knows what it's doing. And even though it may not increase its volume very much, it can most definitely rely on other areas such as customization services to help boost both its top and bottom lines. Yeah. And just to shift gears here and speak a little bit more about some of the capital deployment developments Ferrari has undergone since we first opened our position in the business, we already know that Ferrari is a company that can reinvest in itself at returns on invested capital well above 20 % a year. And that's a huge strength of the business. And again, another reason why we flag it for being so high quality.

44:46Let's dig into how they generate those high returns on capital in more detail. Yeah. So one area that I really like to focus on for pretty much every business I own is what's happening with a company's working capital. Now you might be thinking, what does that have to do with returns on invested capital? And I'll get to that. So for a capital light business, it tends not to be too much of an issue simply because a capital light business might not have any inventory. So you don't get these wild fluctuations and cashflow. But as I was just discussing the$4 million Ferrari F80, the business does tend to carry some inventory.

45:17And obviously a Ferrari is worth a lot of money once it's complete. So if we just look at three items, inventory, receivables, and payables, we actually see that the net working capital has tripled from 2023, which would impact the return on invested capital number by increasing the invested capital number as working capital is a part of that, and which would basically ultimately function to decrease the return on invested capital number. You got to spend money to make money though, right? With the new model releases, they're definitely ramping up the amount of capital that is going to be tied up in inventory.

45:48So that's only a problem if they have trouble moving the inventory. But yeah, it's something to keep an eye on. And launching a model temporarily raises inventory because Ferrari has to hold model-specific components before assembly, partially completed cars throughout what is a relatively long production and personalization process. Plus, they have demo vehicles, and then you need completed cars awaiting final configuration or transport or dealer delivery. So you've got all that. And then also, as Ferrari has raised prices and sold even more premium models, that, of course, makes the value of its vehicle inventory more expensive comparatively on paper.

46:30So to some extent, the growing inventory value simply reflects the accounting behind them raising prices. And the other thing I flagged on Ferrari was their shareholder distribution strategy. So I know that you weren't really a fan of their buyback strategy, Sean, simply because the shares were just never cheap. And the best use of capital for Ferrari, since they do maintain a high capital efficiency number, is to just pump as much capital back into the business as possible. If they don't have the same reinvestment opportunities, I really think dividends probably make more sense than buybacks.

46:58And there's a really easy way to observe this. So as of today, July 20th, Ray shares are trading at a PE of about 36. So if we invert this, we get an earnings yield of about 3%. And this serves as a great proxy for the yield Ferrari would receive from buybacks. So the question then becomes, is there really nowhere else that Ferrari thinks it can earn a better yield than just 3 %? So let's say Ferrari asks themselves that question. And they say the answer to that when it comes to investing back into Ferrari is no. But it's not as simple as then just assuming you just execute buybacks. you then have to consider, okay, where can your investors earn a return by receiving a dividend?

47:34And with the S &P 500 offering returns in the single digits, I think that a dividend just really makes the most amount of sense here. Let's take a quick break and hear from today's sponsors. Curious about online trading, but haven't taken the first step yet? You're not alone. And plus 500 futures is a great place to start. The futures markets are moving fast. And with Plus500, you can explore popular assets like oil, gold, S &P 500, Bitcoin, and more. From crypto to commodities, there's always something happening. The platform is super easy to use, so you can trade on the go right from your phone.

48:07You can get started with just $100 and jump into the action. See something interesting? Once your account is open, you can trade it in just a couple of clicks. And if you're not quite ready yet, you can practice with a free demo account. No risk, no pressure. With 20 years of experience, Plus 500 makes trading more accessible than ever. Check it out at plus500.com. Trading and futures involves risks of loss and is not suitable for everyone. Not all applicants will qualify. Plus 500. It's trading with a plus. Most leaders have a clear picture of how work is supposed to get done and almost no visibility in how it's actually happening day to day.

48:45I felt this running our own team. Someone walks you through a process and it sounds clean, but watch it happen in real time and it looks completely different. Nobody's doing anything wrong. The gap between how we think work happens and how it really happens is just bigger than most of us realize. And without that visibility, you're deciding what to fix or automate based on gut feel, not data. That's exactly the problem today's sponsor. Scribe was built to fix. Scribe Optimize is a workflow AI platform trusted by 94 % of the Fortune 500. It passively captures how your team works across your approved business apps, no interviews, no manual process mapping, and follows workflows wherever they go, even when they start in one tool and finish in another.

49:25The dashboard shows you what's happening and where the time is going. It's live right now, not a report that someone built last quarter. And its top issues view doesn't just flag your biggest inefficiencies, It tells you why they're happening and gives AI-powered recommendations with estimated time savings built in. Importantly, it is a leadership visibility tool, not employee monitoring. It only runs on apps your admin approves, user data is anonymized by default, and sensitive information never leaves your firewall. To see Optimize in Action, head to scribe.how.wsb and mention for a 30-day risk-free trial.

50:02That's S-C-R-I-B-E dot how slash WSB. They say every day your business is late to AI, you fall two days behind, and the competition, they're only moving faster. Fortunately, there's NetSuite next. You probably already know NetSuite, the AI-powered business suite that securely connects all your data, financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM, all in one source of truth, trusted by over 43 ,000 customers. NetSuite Next is the next huge leap because now AI is built into everything you do. It surfaces custom insights throughout your day. AI agents work alongside you on the routine stuff. And anytime you've got a question about anything, you just ask, like you're talking to a colleague.

50:48And I use it. And really, I think you should too. For the first time ever, you can try NetSuite Next for free. If your revenue is at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.ai slash tip. Built for every industry, ready for every boardroom, netsuite.ai slash tip. All right, back to the show. If Ferrari does pay out 40 % of their earnings as dividends, so it's a non-trivial amount. It's just that the dividend yield looks very low because the stock price has been relatively expensive, The higher the stock price, the lower the dividend yield. And again, that doesn't mean that relative to the business's actual cash flows, they aren't returning a substantial amount of money to shareholders via dividends because they are.

51:35And at the same time, the amount of money they're putting back into the business measured as CapEx as a percentage of revenue is pretty average historically. So it's reassuring to me that they're not dramatically under-investing in the business to fund the dividend. And of course, if they're bringing to market four new models in a year, you could have probably guessed that CapEx wasn't super low. And given that we don't actually own Ferrari shares directly, we don't even get the dividends though, which is kind of something to consider. The dividends get paid to Exer, and then it's up to Exer to decide what to do with that cash.

52:12And Exer doesn't pay a dividend. And so if Exer can use the dividends that it receives to buy back enough shares to close the net asset value gap, which is the thing we've been harking on all day today, well, then I would be absolutely ecstatic, right? But my perspective is definitely a bit biased by being an indirect shareholder than directly being a shareholder, where actually it is probably a good thing, the more I think about it, for that cash to be paid out directly to Exor, assuming that they make competent allocation decisions or at least plow it back into buybacks. Yeah. At least with Ferrari's dividend going to Exor, as long as you believe in Exor's ability to reallocate that capital, then it's probably a good place for that money to go.

52:57So one of the best parts of Ferrari to this day is really on the marketing side of things. I think you covered this in your Ferrari episode, and I went pretty deep into it when I analyzed the Formula One group. But the race team angle is really interesting because it essentially acts as an alternative form of advertising for Ferrari. Ferrari is still a brand that doesn't really need to focus too much on getting new customers. I mentioned earlier that Ferrari gets about 85 % of its business from repeat customers. For that reason, they just don't have to go out and spend billions of dollars to try and attract new customers.

53:29The ones they already do have do most of the heavy lifting for them. But as you mentioned, when you first discussed Ferrari, Sean, the F1 Ferrari team can be seen as kind of their marketing lever. But instead of trying to feature a specific model or car, they can just feature the team, the technology, or most importantly, maybe the legacy and the narrative of Ferrari. We were talking before the call about how incredibly valuable the brand of Ferrari is and how you look at some of these other brands that are manufacturers of vehicles and then also have incredible IP that goes along with it. So Harley-Davidson comes to mind, even John Deere to an extent comes to mind.

54:12And again, that's a huge advantage when you have almost this mythical level of lore surrounding how people think about your business. And yet, despite the fact that F1 has been a pretty effective marketing lever for Ferrari generally, they have not been at the top of the sport for nearly 20 years now. And so their last driver's championship was before the financial crisis back in 2007, and their last constructor's championship was in 2008. So while they have been good, they really have not been the best in a long time. And then that kind of works against you, right? If you're trying to have the reputation of justifying$600 ,000 cars, you probably should be associated with being the best of the best.

54:57And so things have turned around a little bit with them currently being second in the team standings behind Mercedes. Yeah. It's funny that you mentioned John Deere there. So my son used to have a pair of John Deere shoes and keep in mind, he's three years old. And not only that, but he also has a ton of little cars around and many of them are also Ferraris. So it's just interesting how these brands are probably intentionally trying to get some sort of mind share and even very, very young kids so that they'll hopefully be a customer one day. So I think it really goes to show you getting back to the marketing angle that Ferrari can very easily rely on its multi-decade legacy to help imprint the brand's image into people's minds.

55:34It doesn't really matter that they haven't won in a long time because they've been very relevant that entire time. Obviously, they've been selling more and more cars over that entire time. So, you know, for the strategy now, which I think has worked very well for a long time, it's really just, you know, when it comes to the F1 team, just stay competitive and allow more F1 fans to become fans of Ferrari. And then once those people either make enough money to make Ferrari ownership feasible, they're already going to know that Ferrari is one of the top status symbols to buy if you just want to show off your car.

56:02So we covered some of the most recent events that I think are most relevant to Ferrari right now, but I think we should also have a look, see at some of the risks that Ferrari is currently facing. So in your analysis of Ferrari, you listed one potential risk being that the younger generation simply is not driving as much as earlier generations. That's right. And it sounds sort of ridiculous, but actually the numbers around it are so mind boggling to me when I first saw it that it does actually give you pause. And so since 1983, the percentage of 18 year olds with a driver's license has fallen from 80 % to 59%.

56:37Wow. I came across one statistic on top of that that was a real eye-opener as well. And that's that in the US, only 25 % of 16-year-olds now have their driver's license. And that's just kind of unfathomable to me because I know when I turned 16, one of the first things I did was book my driver's test so I could just start driving. It was almost seen as kind of this rite of passage into adulthood. But times change and cultural norms shift as well. A few of the other reasons that I think people are probably driving less today, especially younger folks, is simply that it's expensive. Gas is more expensive.

57:07Insurance is more expensive. Servicing your car is more expensive. And with all those things likely to unfortunately continue to get more expensive, not cheaper, I can see why people are getting rid of their cars altogether or just never buying one in the first place and just relying on other forms of transportation, like a business that I know you really like, Sean, in Uber. It is really hard to say what to make of this trend in possession of driver's licenses over time. And for sure, if I were a regular vehicle manufacturer, if I were Toyota, I would be very bothered by that trend. And it would also probably make me want to invest more in building autonomous vehicles that can taxi people around instead, if people don't even have the credentials to be able to buy vehicles in the same way that they did in the past going forward.

57:52And so for Ferrari though, the buyer base is so small. I'm a few thousand people and it's such a dedicated customer base. Remember we said 85 % of purchases are made by recurring customers. I just don't think broader trends in vehicle ownership at the macro level, I just don't think it affects them in the same way, or at least if they ever do feel some kind of sting from it, it's going to be much, much further down the line from when other more typical vehicle manufacturers are impacted. And if cost is also supposedly what's driving down vehicle ownership, then that's really not necessarily a problem for Ferrari either, right?

58:33And surely if you can justify buying a million dollar Ferrari, you're also going to be prepared to spend a lot of money to maintain your car. So I don't think you're going to be too phased by those maintenance bills. Yeah, it's funny you actually bring that up because I was recently speaking to a member of our mastermind community and he mentioned that he had a friend who went to the track somewhere in the US, I believe, to race his Ferrari. Now, something happened to his friend's brake pad on the course. And of course, Ferrari had the personnel and the parts on hand to fix the problem immediately.

59:02But the cost was something like$8 ,000. And this is probably 15, 20 times more expensive than getting that done on a normal car. But the point remains, it's that Ferrari owners have a large amount of disposable income. So the fact that owning a car is getting more expensive is just probably not a problem I think Ferrari owners spend any time really thinking about. And if they want to be environmentally conscious, then they can look to the Luce or one of Ferrari's hybrid models. And that maintenance work and the parts supplying contributes to revenue too, right? right? Ferrari's business encompasses the full life cycle of Ferrari ownership, not just the original sale.

59:42And so if you think about it, you can't get your Ferrari serviced by any other type of mechanic, right? That would be a crazy risk to take for the cost of the vehicle. You want to know that a specialist is working on it. And so accordingly, when Ferrari sells a car to you today, what really you're taking on is maybe a 20 or 30 year commitment to that vehicle and being a recurring customer to Ferrari, buying new tires and whatever else you might need done to it, or if you want to make any customization changes to it over time. So I think that's an important thing to think about is how long the customer lifecycle is.

1:00:24And also the fact that Ferrari really has a monopoly on that in the way that no other or very few other vehicle manufacturers do. Also, another risk that we discussed when we first looked at Ferrari was tariffs. But I would say that hasn't really had an impact on demand. And going back to that first point you made there, Ferrari owners are probably going to be the least price sensitive buying demographic of any I can think of. So if there is a 10 % premium due to some sort of tariff, That just doesn't strike me as a major impediment to demand. And then of course, it's only going to be in the North American or specifically the US geography and Ferrari is very much an international company.

1:01:07And then you also had the CEO recently commenting on tariffs from their latest earnings release. And when asked about it, he said that they had learned a lot about how to deal with them over the last year. And even since tariffs had been introduced, they've been able to make up margin by focusing more on product mix. So selling more higher priced vehicles, as well as additional customization services. And that has helped to offset the tariff headwind. Right. Now, before we get into some of the other developments specifically at Exer, I'd like to know if your thoughts on Ferrari in terms of its evaluation have really changed at all.

1:01:42Given what we've discussed today, I think the model looks very intact, but I'd love to get your insights here. I would say not that much has changed in my assumptions about the value of Ferrari. I wouldn't be keen to significantly revise higher my estimate of what Ferrari is worth, but I definitely don't see any glaring mistakes where we should be re-rating our assumptions of what Ferrari is worth. It's a great business and it's definitely more attractively valued than it's been in a long, long time. So yeah, all those assumptions that we talked about earlier, those KPIs that we're looking at, They seem to be tracking for the most part pretty well with the thesis.

1:02:23So if anything, the assumptions around operating margins, like I mentioned, are probably a bit too conservative. I think Ferrari, if you can, well, I'd say sell the same number of models and simply just increase price by 10%, that incremental 10%, those extra dollars coming in drop completely to the bottom line. And that is another way to think about operating margin. And so when you have a business with very strong pricing power, which is what defines luxury brands as truly pricing power, then yeah, you certainly can expect them to continue to grow margins over time, which is why I say we probably are conservative on what can be accomplished on that front.

1:03:03And if margins are expanding, that means every dollar of revenue that comes in, they're converting into more of a profit. Well, then ultimately you can have earnings per share growth growing faster than top line revenue for a period of time. So that's all I think important context to have when you think about the assumptions for Ferrari going forward. Right. And if you look at the assumptions that the market is making by just, let's say, looking at a stock chart, you'd probably think that you're getting some sort of value because it looked like it obviously went up, did really, really well in 2025, and then it's come down quite a lot in 2026.

1:03:39But the problem with looking at this business from just this angle is that it was probably super expensive before and it's probably still expensive today, just to a much lesser degree. Instead of trading at a PE over 50 times, it's now at 36 times. So while this is a better time to buy shares than it has been in the past, it still just doesn't strike me as the most compelling opportunity out there. I think the optimal buy was probably right after the Luce announcement when it was trading at just 30 times earnings. That was probably the spot where I know you and Daniel were getting very, very interested in the stock price as well.

1:04:12So let me pose a question for you, Sean. When Ferrari initially got to that 30 times earnings, were you thinking about adding to either Exor or Ferrari? Maybe it sounds a little bit greedy, but when you feel like you're getting another more than 50 % discount on Ferrari's shares, I guess it didn't feel like it moved the needle a ton for me to see Ferrari's stock swinging around even a good bit there. Obviously, if you had the extra cash ready, you would always want to be able to add to positions as they become cheaper. But yeah, I think for Daniel and I at the time, the feeling was that we've gotten the exposure that we want to have to Ferrari at a really great price through Exer.

1:04:53And whether we accumulate a few more shares at a modestly lower price is not going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things of how we do on this bet. And sometimes with certain investments, that's more true than with others. But again, with the margin of safety baked into this investment, if things work out as we hope, we're either going to do well or we're not going to do well. And doubling down at a slightly lower PE is probably not going to move the needle at this point. That's fair. That's fair. So I really agree with the decision to own Ferrari via the XOR, but I do want to play devil's advocate here just for a second.

1:05:32So as someone who has invested in holdings companies and serial acquirers, I do know that figuring out when the price and value gap will close is really hard and might actually be completely impossible to forecast. So if I give you an example here, I owned Tencent for a time. So I remember getting asked by other investors why I didn't just own Proces, which was basically a holding company that owned a couple different assets, Tencent being the biggest one. So if I go back to Tencent here, I initially bought in 2021 and I exited two years later. So I was very interested in seeing if that discount at all closed since then for Proces.

1:06:06And the answer to that is a resounding no. So today, Proces trades for about 80 billion euros. The Tencent position alone is now worth 110 billion euros. And that doesn't include the multitude of other assets that process owns as well. So my pushback is that many of these holdings companies discounts really stay at these large discounts kind of into perpetuity. And I know with the extra discount, we don't need the discount to fully close in order to get some multiple expansion. For instance, the normal historical discount, as you've mentioned, has been about 30 % and we're currently somewhere around 60%.

1:06:37So just getting back to the historical discounts will at least give some multiple tailwinds. Again, if nothing happens, but we are assuming, of course, that Ferrari is going to get a little bit better over time. Well, for anybody watching, I bowed my head there out of, I don't want to say defeat, but I think it is a really powerful counterexample to the bull thesis on Exer, because it does make my stomach shrink a little bit there when you think about how this process situation has dragged out for years. And we don't need to get into it too much for anybody who's not familiar with process, but it was widely pitched in value investing circles for a long time and sort of At a high level, the thesis was very similar to what we're talking about with Exer.

1:07:17And I guess my question for you, Kyle, is did you pretty much always know that you weren't interested in trying to get that Tencent exposure for cheaper through process? Yeah, I mean, I did. And I think it was simply because I didn't really want to bother with the other assets that process has. Tencent, as it is, is a pretty complicated business. So I didn't want to have to follow all of process's other assets as well. So I could have probably just justified ignoring everything else other than Tencent by owning process. But then I just personally, I know I would feel a kind of an irresponsible business owner.

1:07:48But like you were mentioning there, I don't want to get too off topic here. Let's get back to XOR and some of the most important events that I think probably happened after we added it to the intrinsic value portfolio. So let's start with some of the larger companies. We got Stellantis, Philips, and CNH. So Stellantis has more or less been kind of in the meat grinder for all of 2026. So as of July 21st, 2026, its share price is down 48%. Now, Solantis has a new management team. So it's very clear that there is some sort of large scale changes happening at the business. And clearly the market isn't particularly crazy about it.

1:08:20Well, for the other two businesses, it has been a little bit better. So CNH is a competitor to John Deere, for anyone not familiar with it. And then that company stock has been up 11%, while Philips is up about 2%. So it's definitely not all doom and gloom across the entire Exer portfolio. And Exer does hold pretty significant positions in these businesses as a percentage of that net asset value. And that was what I was talking about before when I said, you can kind of think of it as you're either getting a discount on Ferrari or you're paying full price for Ferrari and you're getting these stakes in these other businesses like CNH and Philips for free.

1:08:56And any upside that comes from them is all gravy. And then in theory, you have such a wide margin of safety, you're not really impacted if those businesses don't do all that well. So yeah, I would say a large decline in the price of one of these could be pretty painful for Exer shareholders, assuming the NAB discount stays constant. But again, part of the reason we feel good about having bought into Exer at the price that we did is because there's such an historically abnormally large discount that it acts as a cushion to absorb some of that volatility in other parts of the portfolio. Yeah. And one of the parts about Exor that I'd like to mention is its divestitures.

1:09:43Obviously, Exor is actually a pretty good business that creates value. So the divestitures are actually kind of important. So they made transactions on Ivaco Group and G-E-D-I, then divested in stakes and a couple of businesses like LifeNet and NUO, which generated$2 billion of euros for Exer. Now, this was about a 1.4 multiple on their invested capital. Then just kind of reading between the lines here, it looks like they are maybe trying to simplify their holdings a little bit. Maybe that means becoming a little more concentrated and having a more direct strategy that investors can feel can make maybe a little bit more sense of and track it.

1:10:17We won't really know. Like you mentioned there, Sean, they only report on a biannual basis. But hopefully, I personally know I would like to see them hopefully not diversifying that new capital into new positions, but maybe buying back their own stock. I think that would be a really, really nice signal to the market that they are trying to somewhat simplify things. So Iveco manufactures big commercial trucks, buses, and even does some defense contracting too. And it's definitely the most significant divestiture of those you named. and you've already got a whole lot of vehicle manufacturing exposure here via Stellantis and to a lesser extent Ferrari.

1:10:54So I am glad to see Exer move out of Iveco and free up some more cash. And with the discount to NAV being so wide, all they really need to do from my perspective is just simply use that extra cash to buy back more shares or maybe opportunistically plow it back into Ferrari when you get things like this Luce sell-off. But when you have such a large margin of safety, why not go ahead and do that? I just don't think that Exer really needs to do anything super fancy or brilliant to create value for shareholders here. Really just basic blocking and tackling. Yeah. It's funny you bring up that they could potentially plow it back into Ferrari.

1:11:33That's actually something that came up to me. I mean, you sold it at 58 times. It was available at 30 times. We won't know, of course, until the next quarterly comes out if they did that or not. And I'm not saying it breaks the case if they didn't rebuy Ferrari at a lower price, but that would be very, very interesting if they looked into that. But yeah, I think I like your points here about just blocking and tackling, right? Just getting down to the basics, doing things that you're not trying to be super, super smart. Obviously, Munger and Buffett always said that they succeeded by just doing the things that were as simple as humanly possible and avoiding trying to be smart.

1:12:04So I like the direction that they went on there. We've spent the bulk of today really trying to nail down what has happened with Ferrari since we established our Exer position. And while we own Exer primarily for that exposure to Ferrari, I do think we'd be doing you a disservice if we didn't spend some time looking at some other of Exer's assets. And we talked about C &AH and Philips and Stellantis a bit, but Kyle, you mentioned while researching Exer that you were pretty interested in Lingado, which is their asset management division over at Exer. So yeah, tell me what you think about that? Yeah, I'd never basically spent any time looking at Lingotto until I started researching XR in a lot more depth, just to see if they had some other assets outside of that Ferrari stake that was interesting.

1:12:51And I couldn't really help but see that they are definitely featuring Lingotto a lot more often on their latest IR deck. Just to give you a quick data point, when I searched for how often it was mentioned in their latest deck, it was mentioned about 13 times. That's a double from 2025. And it was mentioned just six times and then five times the previous years. To be fair, it was only established in 2023. So it's had to build up from that point. But still, I think management is definitely coming around and seeing that Lingado is a more and more valuable piece of the XOR portfolio. And so it'll be interesting to see how this continues to play out.

1:13:22For starters, let's just linger a little bit longer on what Lingado is in the first place. And so Lingado is an investment management company. And that differs from the Holdco business model. Lingado manages a mix of capital from Exer, some seed money from Exer, and then capital from outside investors. And then it earns fees from investing those assets under management, kind of like a mutual fund or very much exactly like a mutual fund. So if they do well investing, that's a boon for the seed money that Exer has put into Lingado. Plus, Lingato then is going to earn higher fees across all of their customer portfolios that have increased in value.

1:14:03And it'll also come as no surprise that its chairman is, of course, John Elkin, who's the CEO of Exeter and also the chairman of Stellantis and the heir to the Agnelli family. And that's why I kind of jokingly say that you can't escape the fact that this is a family-run business through and through. Every part of it is really touched by the Anjeli family. And so this is just a little bit of a fun fact too, but Lingato means ingot. And I think that's supposed to be a placeholder for wealth, kind of like a gold bar. So I think that's a pretty clever name. And then in terms of how consequential Lingato is for eggs or shareholders, the big thing to know is that the business's AUM assets under management has tripled since it officially launched to over$10 billion.

1:14:51Yeah. And this is the really important distinction because yes, obviously tripling AUM is very impressive over a short time period, but you also have to ask whether the AUM increased due to just bringing on new investors or because the fund has performed well. So I was not able to really find the performance of Lingado, which is made up of four different funds. They're called Intersection, Horizon, Innovation, and Mosaic. If you look at Exeter's 2025 report, they wrote that much of the growth has come from investment returns rather than capital inflows, but they don't break down what that mix is.

1:15:21So if they triple with no capital inflows in two years, I mean, that's obviously spectacular, but obviously that's not something that I think is repeatable over a long period of time. And in that report, they mentioned that most of their returns come specifically from the returns of their intersection strategy. So they're pretty tight-lipped on what exactly this strategy is invested in though. But from what we can tell is that it is focused on public markets. It's concentrated, and it uses a variety of long and short investments. And so at a high level, what's interesting is that Exer has a structure where at the parent company level, they're trying to figure out how to allocate excess cash and manage the Ferrari position.

1:16:02And the market is very, very skeptical of their ability to allocate capital, hence the 60 % discount to NAV. And then if you zoom in another layer in though, you've got Langato, which exists inside of Exer and has its own unique investment strategies and is doing very, very well. So I think you've joked with me before the call, Kyle, that, hey, maybe it would be nice if we could just get the guys at Lingado to manage capital for the entire business. That's right. I think that would be a huge boon. So when looking specifically at Lingado and some of the holdings that they actually hold, it's very, very hard to find what those are.

1:16:39But I think I was able to find a few of the holdings inside of Lingado. The best that I was able to find was from Whale Wisdom. So So according to them, the Lingado Investment Management LLP has a very concentrated position with the top five positions consisting of Teva Pharmaceuticals, Carvana, Paramount Skydance, Valeris, and Nova Gold Resources. Now, since Lingado is running four different funds, it's kind of hard to see which of these positions are in which funds, but you can see from these names why it's been just so successful since 2023. If we just take a closer look at the top two positions there in Teva Pharmaceuticals and Carvana, you can see where a lot of the success comes from.

1:17:14So Teva itself has gone from around$7 to$28 since 2023, which was the date of Lingato's inception. Carvana had an insane ride up going from about$1.50 in 2023 up to$64 today. Now, based on those two positions alone, you can probably see how these guys have managed to multiply their AUM and how a lot of that was through performance. So I definitely have to give them kudos for finding just some incredible, incredible investments on that end. It's too bad that, again, the Exeter holding company hasn't mirrored some of those Lingato strategies. A 4X and a 42X with Carvana in three years is really breathtaking stuff.

1:17:51And generally speaking, Lingato seems to be a great asset for Exeter, even if you can't bank on those kinds of returns indefinitely. And tripling your portfolio every three years is certainly not realistic, even for the best investors in the world. But they don't have to perform that well for Lingado to be a strong complement to everything else Exor is doing either. And I think that's really the theme today is mediocrity is okay when you're buying into a business at a 60 % discount. Yeah. I mean, if you're looking at Exor today at an even larger discount to NAV and are thinking, wow, if Lingado can keep just doubling every three years, they're going to be raking in some massive fees.

1:18:29I think you probably then need to just pump the brakes significantly specifically for the reasons that you just gave, Sean. Just to close this point out though on Lingato, it's important to consider exactly how XOR has monetized it. So Lingato is a fully owned investment management company. And even though it has a large AUM, obviously that doesn't all belong to XOR. Part of it does, but not all of it. But XOR definitely does have a large stake in the business. And since the performance of the fund has been so good with 40 % gains in 2025 alone, we can see that they are increasing their income statement profits because of the increase in value of their share of the fund.

1:19:03So how about you just take us through the fee generating part of this business and how you think about it? Yeah. So this part is definitely harder to make sense of. Lingado doesn't disclose the fees on the fund, probably because it's still at a reasonably early stage. If this fund was running hundreds of billions of dollars, then I assume the management fees would definitely be large enough to really take note of. But John Elkin has referred to the fees generated by Lingado as eventually being a future recurring revenue fee. So we can make a few assumptions based on the industry averages of other management companies.

1:19:33If we assume, let's say, a 1 % management fee, well, then that's$100 million just in management fees. And that doesn't include any performance fees. If there's taking kind of a standard 20 % of performance, well, that's $240 million based on the change in fair value just in 2025. So I think I can speak for both of us, Sean, in saying that I don't expect them to make 40 % a year. But the fact is that as long as they are succeeding here and making just moderate returns, they're going to make some really good fees managing this fund. Plus, as a large shareholder, they take part in the real gains of the fund as well.

1:20:02Yeah. I mean, an extra couple hundred million dollars a year in management fees down the line is definitely nothing to scoff at. And whenever we cover new companies, this would normally be the part of the show where we would go over our intrinsic value estimate. But we have sort of already done that today with Ferrari, at least. And so I'm not sure that there necessarily needs to be any adjustments made to that model. And really, I think in terms of investing in Exer, it just comes down to a more simple question of, do we still feel good about making this type of bet? And so maybe you can tell me, Kyle, how you feel about it after, since you weren't a part of the original decision-making process when Daniel and I looked at this business, where do you land with your sort of independent analysis?

1:20:45Yeah. I mean, my thoughts aren't too dissimilar from what you just said there. I don't really see too much of a reason to change things either. Exer is definitely continuing to trade at this massive discount to its net asset value. And we think that the Ferrari asset alone will continue to grow an intrinsic value somewhere. Who knows, maybe high single digits or low double digits. But as long as Exit doesn't drastically close the price and value gap, and as long as things are going well for Ferrari, we don't really see much of a reason to sell this business. So I know from an outsider's perspective, it might seem like, why are you guys holding this business when it's just done nothing since you bought it since January?

1:21:19And the answer, at least in my view, is very simple. So the Ferrari business still looks good. And we think the valuation gap will close to some degree at some point in the future. So as long as Ferrari continues to compound its intrinsic value, the share price will eventually follow and Exor's NAV will continue to grow. And even if it stays at a massive discount, well, Exor's stock will increase as its NAV increases. The downside being that the discount widens even more. But I think it would be really unprecedented for the discount to get much wider for this type of situation where there are real valuable assets on the balance sheet that cannot be entirely written off.

1:21:51So we said this before, and we were maybe a little premature, but it does still feel like an asymmetric bet here where we don't know what will happen with Ferrari, but everything else being equal, I think the discount to NAV can probably only move in one direction in the long term. I think I said at the beginning of today's episode that you kind of have to accept the premise that Ferrari is a compelling business to own, to find this as a decently attractive investment opportunity. And again, doesn't need to do phenomenally. But if you're someone who really thinks the Luce has ushered in a dark age for Ferrari, which may be what Daniel thinks, I know as a German, he's taken great offense to the automobile craftsmanship that went into the Luce.

1:22:35And then purely betting on the Exeter discount to Nav, to Nero, it's just not nearly as attractive as an investment if you're not really excited about Ferrari, because there's no law of finance. There's no financial gravity that requires the markets to fully recognize Exer's net asset value, even if intuitively you would be pretty logical to expect that. The market doesn't have to agree with your logic. And so on the flip side, what's so attractive about this to me is the possibility of having two twin engines magnifying your returns with With Ferrari's compounding, which has been very, very good, plus Exor's discount to NAV normalizing, that alone could be a double.

1:23:19And then if you look at Ferrari, this is a company that has compounded its stock price by 21 % a year over the last decade. Right. I think the opportunity here is still quite compelling, especially looking at it from Exor's point of view. But there was one other area that I want to discuss with you, Sean, on Exor, and that was kill criteria. So the reason I like kill criteria is it helps me be a little more objective on whether or not one of my ideas has been destroyed or not. So when I do a kill criteria, it needs two things. It needs a state and a date. So generally, the date, I put about a year out, although sometimes if it's a really long-term bet, it might be longer.

1:23:53And then the state is just based on pretty much a few KPIs, I think, that would completely derail the thesis to a point where it's just very, very obvious that I'm wrong. So I want to pose this question to you. What would you need to see happen in Exor that would completely derail the thesis to a point where it's just glaringly obvious that we probably need to sell it? Yeah, I think it's a great question because we can sit here and confirmation bias ourselves all day. And so why we still feel like it was a good decision to buy into Exor. But if we're sort of taking this open-ended bet on Exor's gap to NAV narrowing, we're signing up for an unknown period of potential pain.

1:24:31And that's not necessarily a great investing practice. And so if we were to see Exeter make really poor allocation decisions, that would definitely be a signal at a high level to me that this just isn't worth the trouble and that the market was right to be pessimistic on their capital allocation ability. And what that could mean was maybe holding off on buybacks when they've had the chance to buy their own shares at a massive discount in favor of acquiring some business that we deem to be mediocre and then maybe overpaying for it. That would be really disappointing. And that would validate, again, the market's thinking that Exer deserves to trade at a discount to NAV.

1:25:11And also, we didn't really talk about it today, but there's a lot of family drama with the Agnellis who control Exer, where you've got actually the mom suing her own son. And it's ugly stuff. And while it's a low likelihood because the lawsuits do seem to be somewhat spurious, but if we did see John Elkin lose control of the company for whatever reason, or be removed as CEO, I mean, that would be a sign that there's just too much going on behind the scenes to justify the investment, in my opinion. So keeping an eye actually on some of the legal dramas in the background here would also be worth doing.

1:25:49Well, that's all we have for you today, folks. And as usual, I want to leave you with a quote, this one by XOR CEO, John Elkan. I learned not to be desperate in bad times, and I'm learning not to be bullish when times are good. So with XOR shares down 24 % over the last year, I think John is practicing what he preaches by not making any overly erratic moves. While the market can definitely be very punishing in the short term, if XOR's NAV continues to compound at its historical rate of about 12 % annually, chances are pretty good that the shares will rebound at some point. And with some of the extraordinary gains XOR has made in the past with some of the wonderful assets they have today, I think he's taken the right approach today to stay level-headed and to continue to provide shareholder value.

1:26:29That's it for today. I'll see you next time.

1:26:48and does not consider your objectives, financial situation or needs. Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principle, and past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Listeners should do their own research and consult a qualified professional before making any financial decisions. Nothing on this show is a recommendation or solicitation to buy or sell any security or other financial product. Hosts, guests, and the Investors Podcast Network may hold positions in securities discussed and may change those positions at any time without notice. References to any third-party products, services, or advertisers do not constitute endorsements and the Investors Podcast Network is not responsible for any claims made by them.

1:27:23Copyright by the Investors Podcast Network. All rights reserved.