How to Become Your Own Advocate and Get What You Want With Heather Hansen

22:59I'm like, you know when we had conversations about when you doubled your launch? Can you talk about that experience? That's it. And so that's when I won the jury over and I'm like, we're moving forward, y 'all. We're going, we're going. Absolutely, and that's how it happens. And also, remember, in the courtroom, you don't need to have all the evidence. You just have to have the weight of the evidence on your side. So there might be some of these things that you don't yet have. You can create it. After you create this course, you'll have testimonials. And that's the creating of evidence. But you've also found a way to collect it by looking all over the place and saying, oh, this particular thing, I can make it fit as evidence to persuade my inner jury to not to listen to Rhonda.

23:39OK, now let's get back to how did Heather become like an advocate for advocates? Oh, boy. OK, so I started I went to college in college. What I really wanted to do is what I'm doing now, but it wasn't so much a career. And it certainly wasn't a career that friends and family would be like, oh, yeah, go do that. So I went to law school. I was fortunate enough that in law school, I started working at the firm where I am still a partner, which is crazy. Wow. I didn't know that. All my creeping. I did not know that. And so that's 2094 is when I started law school. So a long time ago. OK. And I was really lucky because the kind of law that that firm did was medical malpractice defense.

24:18I think that I really liked the fact that it involved human beings and bodies. I could get my mind around that. I could understand because really, as an advocate, you need to know more about the subject matter than you do about the law. The law was really not that important in my job, but I needed to understand the medicine and all of that. And so for 20 years, I was, Jasmine, I was a really good lawyer. I was top 50 female attorneys in the state of Pennsylvania. I was inducted into the American College of Trial Lawyers, I was really good at advocating for my clients and really good at teaching them to advocate for themselves because I was aware that the jury didn't care so much what I had to say.

24:55They cared what the doctor, the nurse, the tech in the operating room had to say. And so I was a very strong advocate, but terrible at advocating for myself. Would not advocate for myself in my personal relationships, would not advocate for myself. Give me an example. So I'll give you, well, first of all, I'll give you a work example. I was in demand as a trial attorney. A lot of people wanted me to try their cases and I needed help, but I didn't ask for, I didn't, I knew what I wanted sort of, but needing help. I mean, we can talk about clarity. That's not real clear. I just kept saying I need help, but was not like I need a new paralegal.

25:29I needed someone else to take over some cases. I wasn't clear there. I would not ask for it. When I finally did, it was with resentment and frustration and anger and not with delight. and then you can't master the art of the ask when you're asking with frustration and resentment and anger. Now, can I tap up the human emotion? When you had said, I want to create the distinction between asking with regret or resentment and versus asking with delight. Were you resentful that people didn't see that Heather needed help? Yes. And so you're saying, I want you to see so that I don't have to ask. Yes. And that's what so many of us do.

26:02And we are also givers. So clearly, if I give you help, I want help too. clearly, if I'm running around when you need something, I step up. Clearly, I want you to do the same when I'm running around with back to back trials and no help and feeling like my head's going to fall off. But I wasn't actually asking. I was asking by giving. So you continued to give on that partner track being like, look at how much I'm giving and you're waiting for somebody to reciprocate. Yes, but not asking for it. Just assuming that they would. Of course they know. And then by this time I was a partner. But even as a young associate, I would not ask for a raise.

26:39because I thought, why should I have to? They should know. I work so hard. I build more hours than anyone else here. I work harder than anyone else here. I'm bringing in work already and I'm not even a partner. Of course they know that I want to be a partner and that I want more money, but they don't always know. No, I was really lucky because my mentors and partners did give me, I was a partner when I was young. They did give me a lot of things, but I still should have asked for more because they didn't know all the things that I wanted. Only I do. The listeners, the people who are watching, you know what you want better than anyone else can.

27:11And so you've got to ask because if you don't, then you get resentful. And then when you finally do ask, you're mad that they haven't given it to you already. And it's just a totally different energy. So we framed it up in asking for what you wanted in terms of being a partner. So it's not as much employee and employer. It's more of like two or multiple co-founders at that point. So we went through that, like, hello, we're partners. And do you not see this? So then you asked with resentment. And then you talked about when you were associate, like, well, can't you see what's going on? Now, as an employer, I have no doubt there have been times where I had employees to say, well, don't you see?

27:54Now, in my mind, and please tell me to disagree. In my mind, I've always believed that if you were to present me with what you have done and then said comparable to that, but this is me being super analytical and data like. So how does somebody, how does my employees, how does any employee, if somebody is listening right now and being like, hey, I have a side hustle, but I really like my job. I want to get paid more for it. Is there a framework? Yes. I mean, I think that you've got to know what you want. So it's not just I need to get paid more. I want to get paid this many dollars. I want to get this much of a raise.

28:25You do the research to get the evidence that this is what's comparable. This is what I've brought into the business. This is the amount that you're getting as a result of the work that I'm doing. So you're creating, you're making the case, right? So you're very clear on what you want. I also, when I'm talking to people about doing this, I tell them to have negotiables and non-negotiables. So you might say, I need to make at least$1 ,000 more a year. That's your non-negotiable. But you ask for two. Okay. And then you have a bunch of negotiables. Well, if you can't give me two, can I work from home one day?

28:58Can you pay for me to go take these courses? Can I get gas money for my commute? You know, when I work with people, we actually create a list of negotiables because you want to have as many negotiables as you can so that we're sort of skipping around the order here. But when you're actually asking, you can say, well, I want 2000 and I want to work from home four days a week. But ultimately, you know, the non-negotiable is 1000 and working from home one day a week. and then also have some that you play with. Like, will you pay for me to join Chief and get some networking opportunities? Will you pay for me to go to this mastermind that's across the country that's gonna have people where I'm gonna learn for the business?

29:35And so you really wanna collect those so that you're not negotiating. You know, I trained to become a mediator in part of my past life. And one of the things that I found is the people who had the most negotiables got the most because they were willing to play. So good. Good. The most negotiables win. Yes. That's it. Okay. So we went from partner to partner. We went from associate to employer. And then we went through specifics as an employee speaking to me. And so now the nomenclature, like what I am telling my team is we can absolutely have conversations, but what I need from you is you've done the homework.

30:14You're very clear on what you want and to have your non-negotiables and your negotiables laid out. And I will have non-negotiables and negotiables laid out. We are two people, we're two parties having not a, but I feel like I deserve more. You're right. That's not going to work. That's not going to work. Not going to work for the employer. I would tell you, I'm like, that's just not going to work. That's going to not, and the thing that I also recommend, and you can speak to this as a busy CEO, I recommend that people give the person that they're asking exhibits ahead of time. So that is to send to you the day before that you meet.

30:47Oh, that's so good. A memo that says, this is the evidence that I'm going to be presenting to you. Because then you have time, there's actually research, it's an older book, but it's called The CEO Next Door. They talk about how CEOs before meetings like to have some context about what the meeting's about. What are you asking for? What's the evidence? How can I play with this in my head? How can I wrap my head around it? Because often if you don't do that, and someone comes to a meeting with you, Jasmine, and they say, well, I want to raise, you're like, well, I have to think about it. And you still probably are going to have to think about it, but you're going to be able to give them a better sense of how long it's going to take, what you need to know, what more information you might need.

31:19It's a back and forth, this advocating slash negotiating. It's not a one-shot deal like it was in the courtroom. So good. So we were talking about your origin story and then we were talking about the ways that you've given real life examples from peer to peer or founder to founder, employee to employee, like negotiables from an employee asking for a raise or a promotion within an organization. Did I miss any sort of caveats? Like for somebody who's listening right now. And okay, I didn't think I was going to actually have this conversation. And here we are having this conversation. There was a Christmas tree up this morning and you arrived and the remnants of the Christmas tree were on the floor and there wasn't furniture in the back of where we're filming right now.

32:06And so I'm seeing all of this happen in real time when what I hear it should have been in a partner to partner relationship was if I'm submitting evidence, I should have told my business partner and husband, the tree needs to be down by 7am in the morning. Right. So you know what you want. That's the non-negotiable. Ask for it with delight. Okay. And that's the thing that has to happen. I am anything but delightful. I am your living nightmare. Cause did you just hear what I said? So the tree needs to be down by seven. Who wants to do that? How do I ask with delight? Like what the, what in the world?

32:39I mean, listen, And that is the thing that people struggle with the most. But it's also the thing that makes the most impact. Because Jasmine, had you asked JD, honey, you know, the tree really, it's going to be so much fun today. We're going to be so awesome. I know you have a busy day planned with Luna as well. It's going to be great. But we really need to get that tree down because it's going to open up the space and it's going to have that thing off your list and off my list. Let's do that by tomorrow morning at eight o 'clock. That energy is different than that. She's got to come down by eight.

33:04Oh, God. I got a lot of work to do in 2024. I have to tell you that, Heather. Okay. Okay. I hear it. It delights the goal, right? But it is, we can't always get there. You know, you're not always going to be delighted about taking down the Christmas tree. Right. But if you can get to a place where you're not asking with resentment or, you know, a lot of people in that situation don't ask at all. They just look at the tree and they say, oh, is he, she never going to take down that tree? And then the resentment builds and says, you know, like sooner or later, somebody's got to take down that tree.

33:29And then you're being passive aggressive. It's going to be me. And then you finally explode and you're like, and you don't take down the tree. And if you just walk by that tree, you took down your mom's tree. Right, exactly. it turns into a terrible thing because the resentment builds your resentment is a sign of a time that you need to advocate it's a time that you need to open up your mouth and start resentment is a sign that you need to advocate so if there's somebody's listening and we're not talking about business anymore we're talking about with your children with a partner with friendships if you are feeling a little bit resentful it's time for you to know exactly what you're asking for yep asking with delight yeah and then mastering the art of that yes Can we go back to your origin story, perhaps pick up a little bit there and then weave in the way that you've learned how to master the ask?

34:12Yeah. So I didn't even know I wasn't good at advocating for myself. I just knew I wasn't getting what I needed. And so I was getting sick. I ended up in the emergency room. So it's a longer story, but I represented a woman who reminded me a lot of myself. She was an emergency room doctor. It was a very high stress case. It was the patient had died in the case. So very high stress case. And I called her. She was a young mom and she had moved away. And I told her about our jury. She was not flying into for the trial to start. And she said, Heather, I just found out that if we lose this case, I'm going to lose my job.

34:44And Jasmine, within minutes, I had an allergic reaction to my own stress hormones. My lips started to swell up and I was going into anaphylaxis because my throat was my tongue was swelling. My throat was swelling closed because I was having an allergic reaction to my cortisone, all my stress hormones. So I had to go to the emergency room and spend the night there hooked up to steroids and Benadryl. And it was like research in real time. I started the trial that Monday. I won that case. But I realized then that something had to give. And I had to start asking for what I wanted. And I didn't know where to begin.

35:18You know, I didn't know how to do it. And so I all I knew was being a lawyer. All I knew was advocating in the courtroom. And so I decided, let me try to do it the way I do it in the courtroom. Let me try to know the people I'm asking. Let me be very clear in what I want. Let me make sure that I'm asking in a way that benefits them. That's mastering the art of the ask. And let me make sure that I'm not letting it get to resentment. And I started doing it in little, little, little ways. So I started asking for more help in my partnership at my trials. And that freed me up. So then I started asking for I started doing some television.

35:50I was a legal analyst for CNN and MSNBC. And then I wanted to do more of that. Dan Abrams had just started the Law and Crime Network. I asked to be an anchor there and I got that. And so the more that I was asking for what I wanted and advocating, the more that I was actually receiving. At the time, I was in a not so great relationship. I asked him, I lived in Philadelphia. He lived in a different part of the country. I asked him to come more often. When he couldn't, I left that relationship. And so everything changed when I started advocating for myself. And then I recognized that if this works for me, it could work for other people.

36:22And so I wrote my book, The Elegant Warrior. I started doing some coaching and some speaking. And now that's what I do. I teach people how to do this skill because it's a very specific skill. When you communicate, you share perspectives. When you advocate, you change them. They are different skills and they take different skill sets. But now I teach people how to do that. And I do it through coaching. I have a membership called the Self-Advocacy School. I do it through keynote speaking. I do it in my books. And it's a dream come true. You're a dream come true. I'm just, I don't think I was breathing.

36:54I just realized I was like, inhale, girl, inhale. I love it. If we can go back and have an example. You mentioned Dan Abrams. Can we actually walk through the three part? Talk to me about the knowing, asking with delight, and then mastering the art of the ask, because I want to use this as a real life example for somebody who is looking at something they want, don't yet have, and see it as a kind of like a blue ocean opportunity. Yes. And that's a huge one. Because I have been doing legal analyst work with CNN and MSNBC. And that means for the listener or watcher who might not know this, you're not paid for that work.

37:35Unless you are hired by MSNBC or CNN, like my friend Danny Savalos, for example, is a MSNBC legal contributor. The legal analyst in general, when I was doing it, we weren't paid. And so it was really... Why? This is the woman who's like, I'm a CEO. Why aren't we getting paid? The reason you do it is because it's tons of fun. And every time it... And some people do it for business for their law firm. For me, that was not the case because of the type of law I did. For me, it always felt like an audition. Maybe they'll see me. Maybe they'll think I'm good. Maybe they'll want me to be a contributor.

38:12And that's usually how it works. Like Danny started as an analyst, and then he was always available, always prepared, really good on camera. And now he's a contributor. So it's sort of like you just keep saying yes, and you keep going in the hopes that that will happen. And I've been doing that, and it wasn't happening. And so I was starting to get frustrated. Okay, we'll pause. Somebody is watching and listening, and they are glazing over something she just powerfully said. I was doing the same thing and I wasn't getting what I wanted. If you are doing the same thing and not getting what you want, something has to change.

38:48So what did you do to change? Well, and it's also really interesting because I never asked. I never asked anyone at MSNBC, hey, do I have a chance at being a contributor? I never advocated for myself. Looking back, why not? What do you think it was? It was a lack of belief in myself and a little bit of just the fear of embarrassment, which is a big thing that holds us back from advocating. Our brains hate embarrassment. I just read a great book called Energy Rising. The woman's, the author's name is Dr. Julia Daganji, I think. And she talks about, she's a neuroscientist and she talks about the emotions and the emotion that the brain hates most is humiliation and embarrassment.

39:25And so that's what we're often afraid of when we're afraid to advocate is we're afraid I'm gonna be embarrassed if they say no. I'm gonna be humiliated if they tell me I don't. I don't have a chance. Right. Not even close. And especially because that was in person. Like I'm at MSNBC. So the humiliation is even more of a risk if they have to say that to my face. And so I went out to the honest answer to that question. But the universe gave me an opportunity in the Dan Abrams thing. So I had not. What was the difference between the two? What do you think gave you the power to ask in that situation and not the former?

39:58It was via email. Oh, and I didn't already know him. There was a lot of things but so dan I had never met dan before I knew who he was he had started his He had his start at court tv And he worked his way up. He became the head legal news. He was the head of legal I think at abc Then he started a number of different websites. He's written books He's very prolific and he had tweeted That he was going to start a network similar to court tv and that felt removed enough that it wouldn't be as humiliating. You know, the risk of humiliation wasn't as high. So I tweeted him. This is before Twitter became X years ago.

40:43And so let's go back into the framework now. I knew what I wanted. You knew what you wanted. Did you have a list of negotiables and non-negotiables? Okay. At this point, I was, it felt like a stretch. When we finally did sit down to talk about what the job would look like I did. It wasn't much of a list. It was, I really want this. Okay. But so I had a lot of negotiables and not very many non-negotiables when we finally sat down. Got it. But the initial ask was, I knew what I wanted. And it was such a, I was delighted at the prospect that they must need anchors. I'm here in New York City. This feels like it's within my reach.

41:22I was in full belief that it was at least worth a try. Not that I was going to get it, but that it was at least worth a try. That the risk of humiliation did not outweigh the benefit that I thought I could get, especially when it was done via Twitter. So I tweeted him, you know, I messaged him on Twitter and I said, I'm local. I've done legal work for CNN and so forth. And in that world, they see you because they're all watching the shows all the time. So he knew who I was and I would love to be one of your anchors. So he said, why don't you come in? So I knew what I wanted. I asked with delight And now I had to master the art of the ask, right?

41:59I had to go in. I had to know what he wanted. I had an assumption that their budget wasn't high. I was still lawyering. So that would work for me. I knew that for me, the only real non-negotiable was time. I was still lawyering. So I couldn't commit to like every day, you know, eight hours a day or whatever. I knew that he wanted someone who had credibility. So I came, I sent him ahead of time, all of the things I'd done on TV, but also all of the things that I had done in the courtroom and how that would help me to be a good anchor and maybe even a better anchor than some of the others that I had seen because they didn't have that courtroom experience.

42:32And so I looked at it from his perspective, not mine, which is like, I want to be an anchor, so he should let me be an anchor. But he needs anchors. He needs anchors that maybe he's not going to pay as much as some of these other things, other channels are paying. He needs someone who understands the courtroom. He needs someone who can think on their feet. And so I created that exhibit ahead of time and sent it to him so that when we sat down, it was very quick. He said, you know, we'd love to have you. He introduced me to the woman who Rachel, who really was running the day to day. And very quickly I started.

43:04This is the most perfect example and it feels so real. And I want to go back and really point out that your whole body kind of became a little concave and you had said, I wimped out. Yeah. And I just want to hold power in space for somebody who has your dream career to look back at a point and say, I had wimped out. And then somehow I found the way to lessen my risk of humiliation, knew that my non-negotiables were very small in relation to like, listen, I want this and we're going to make it work. You had mastered the ask in advance of, you had said, I'm going to send you everything that you could possibly need so that the only thing you need to really make a decision on is, are we a match here?

43:49Like energetically, do you think that I could do what my resume and all this data analytics and proof show? And then you were looking at it from that jury. Rachel and Dan, they were your jury. That's right. Exactly. That's exactly right. And the thing that I do have to point out about this, the wimping out and the not asking for MSNBC, I think it's important to know that you advocate for something, you get it. It might, the knowing what you want. I thought that's what I wanted. I'm sitting here today. I'm not an anchor. So I realized that it wasn't what I wanted anymore. And I advocated for something different.

44:26And my entire new career, especially lawyer was a pretty straight line. But this new career has been, I know what I want. I asked for it with delight. I mastered the art of the ask. Ideally, I get it. It's not exactly what I want. And sometimes I don't get it. And that's more evidence that helps me to decide what it is that I really do want. So for the people who are listening and watching. I want them to know that the misses are just more evidence and you might get what you want. I think sometimes people think, well, what if I'm wrong? You find out if you're wrong. And if you're wrong, you're one step closer to what it is that you really want by having gone through that experience.

45:01So good. It was like you knew we were nearing the end of the podcast. I was like, it's the crescendo. She's getting there. She's getting there. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, of the Jasmine Stark Podcast jury. You know, if Heather Hansen was Rhonda, I lost. Happily, happily, happily. Heather, how do people go deeper? So I know you have a book. I know you are revamping and re-releasing your podcast. You have been a guest on big, powerful, amazing podcasts as well. Where do people go to learn more about you and how to go deeper? My website is advocate2win.com. And on there, there is a link for the membership, which is a membership where they can get, we do live coaching every week.

45:45We have a community which supports each other in knowing what they want. They talk to each other a lot. There's some courses on this. So that's all there. There's links to my book, The Elegant Warrior. The podcast is also called The Elegant Warrior. But this season, it's how to advocate with Heather Hansen. And it's only about how to advocate as a leader, how to advocate for your boundaries, how to advocate if you're in sales, how to overcome your own doubts. And so it's really specific to the stuff we've been talking about here today. That is beautiful. knowing how to ask and getting what it is you want.

46:16Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for watching and listening the Jasmine Starr Show. And wait a minute, we have to give a shout out to Instagram. You are posting stories. You're showing New York City. You're showing your life. And the small little tidbits of just like an example. This is what happened today. And this is like, that stuff has been gold for me. So it's an A-N, Elegant Warrior is my handle. An Elegant Warrior. Be sure to tag Heather and myself if you've enjoyed this podcast more than anything. My biggest takeaway is collecting small pieces of evidence. And when you cannot collect, we create.

46:51So to the creators, thank you for listening. And thank you, Heather, for being a guest. Thank you for having me.

47:09Thank you.