Marketing Campaigns and Influencer Partnerships: What Small Business Owners Need to Know with Denise Lambertson

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0:38Welcome back to the Jasmine Star Show. I have been patiently and impatiently creeping on our guest today. Denise is an influencer marketing expert focusing on startup consumer products. I know a lot of fancy words strung together. She's also an investor and a managing partner in a venture capital firm. But let me tell you why I have been so intrigued with her journey, her brilliance, and the way that she is connecting the dots, which is what we all do here on the Jasmine Star Show, is she has been called the godmother of influencer marketing. And out of college, she worked with Madonna, which inadvertently taught her how to build a brand, pivot, leverage creativity.

1:11I mean, y 'all, we do this on the regular, but she also went on tour with Madonna. She's learning and had learned back then what makes brand partnerships work and what works for creative campaigns. She also then thereafter started freelancing with brands and ended up with a foundation of how she built her own business. And she is self-proclaimed I'm constantly resourceful when people say no. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Denise Lembertson to the Jasmine Starr Show. Denise, I'm so happy you're here. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here. And thank you, you really did do your homework. That was one of the most thorough intros I've ever been given.

1:46So I really appreciate that, thank you. Thank you. And so what I want people to do is I want people to go back and listen to the other podcast interviews that you've done. You really broke down a lot of the extensive work that you did with Madonna early on. So instead of kind of like repeating that, like everybody's origin story is great, but I think that that is just like a small, tiny microcosm. I think it sounds so great and it's a good story to start, but what I wanna go is I wanna go to the meet. I wanna know how did you get from being an executive assistant to actually starting off growing?

2:17And more than anything, the listeners of this show, mostly, most of us are entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs. And so what I really want you to speak in is you have been in the front row of marketing and it's taken on different forms like influencer marketing, then turning into equity And that's the conversation that I would love to have. And one of the things I found fascinating is that you have access to brands and the celebrities. And then you started creating unique insights to start an agency. And then you started an investment fund. But before we get there, I kind of want people to know from your perspective, you get on an elevator with somebody and somebody says, oh, so what do you do?

2:51How would you explain that? Oh, gosh, going to the hardest question first. It's a complicated one. I typically say a marketing agency and I am an investor. I like to incubate startups with services and capital. But, you know, really the headline for me, I believe I'm a connector. That's where my joy comes from. That's where my purpose comes from. So whether it's connecting capital to companies and influencers to startups, you know, I've introduced people that have gotten married. I've introduced people to have stayed with their boss and executive assistant roles for 10 years. So I just like to make really valuable introductions.

3:26Well, I hope that was a long elevator ride because I definitely... No, it was so good because when I first came across you, I tried my hardest. So my podcast producer and I, we went through and we read this bio and it's beautifully written. It's beautifully done. It was so much. And I'm like, okay, but how on an elevator ride do I describe her? So I actually tossed the hardest question to you to begin with, because I want people to get a foundation that at the end of this podcast show, people are going to learn more about marketing. Maybe it's marketing that they're deploying immediately. Maybe it's marketing that they can be a part of or employ on the inside of their organization.

4:03This is this conversation. I'm fascinated with everything that you're doing. And as any good conversationalist would know, we're gonna start with Beyonce. I know, we're gonna turn this on its head because I want people to be like, what? How does this podcast host and the world of Beyonce and the world of watermelon all mix? I'm wondering if you could start the story with a watermelon water and how Beyonce flipped that conversation on its head to totally surprise you? Yes. Oh my gosh. That's a fun one. That is hindsight is 2020. It's always fun to look back on deals when they have worked out, but that was also a long one.

4:35And that was quite the rollercoaster, but watermelon water was a client of my agency and really they had brought us on for local influencers. I think this is back in 2016. So like micro influencers, Instagram micro influencers was just at the very beginning. You know, you can even remember a time and they were only in two markets, LA and New York. Watermelon Water was only being sold in two markets. And as a part of our onboarding process that we do with any new client, one of the last questions, and I think I stole this from somebody, I don't know who, so I'm sorry. If money was no object and if you could have all your dreams fulfilled for your brand dead or alive, who would be the dream ambassador, face of your business?

5:20And really that question is just more of an exercise of, you know, getting a founding team to really explain how they think about their brand. But hold on, I have to pause there. I have to pause there because this is so profound and I just don't want to like glaze over it. If we're listening right now, Denise asked somebody who as her agency was representing, what's your dream partner? And what they wanted to do is get alignment to the brand and the vision and the overall culture. What is the thing that's not being said here? And so as a business owner, you might find yourself in the place if you have a very small business that you are the face and the personality.

5:51But as the business grows, and even if you're not there yet, who might be the person or the group of people who would embody the brand of the business? And so right there, first takeaway action is who might that person be? Okay, let's go back to the story. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a great exercise for us. And immediately the founder, a woman named Jodi Levy, said Beyonce. She had just put out her song, Drunk in Love. And there's a line, there's a lyric in there that is, I've been drinking watermelon. and she, you know, listed all the reasons why Beyonce is perfect for her business. And being the connector that I am, I was like, oh, that's amazing.

6:28I totally see it. Very exciting. Why don't we send some product over to her team's office? I know a few people on her team from my music industry days. Like, let's just have some fun. Let's just send some product over. Well, long story, very, very short. Sent the product over to the office the day or the day after. She happened to be in the office. It happened to be on the table when she walked into the conference room And she happened to, this is a testament to a great package and a great bottle design because you noticed it immediately and was like, what is this? I'm really interested in this.

6:57Who knows where did this come from? And that really, it's a different kind of influencer, right? Like the ability to get a product into the right place to be noticed without not necessarily influencer the way that we think about it now, which is one to many, but one to one other person to many is another influence. influence. And so that was really, we were in back in that office with her team four days later, starting the conversations. Wow. Okay. So we're listening and who doesn't want Beyonce? Who doesn't want Beyonce as a part of their business? So this is not, I have a direct contact to Beyonce.

7:32This is, we have a great product. We have a dream and we have an address that we can send good product to. And the stars align. And one of the things I found fascinating about the story was that Watermelon Water, if I understand it correctly, didn't necessarily have the budget to include Beyonce as part of being like on the front end of its marketing campaign. But Beyonce wanted to do what as a part of that? Yeah. Well, so as I mentioned, it was in two markets. So really early in the life stage of the business. And even if they had had a budget, which they did not, but let's say they had, there would have been doing a marketing campaign with Beyonce, who's got a global reach for a product that's only available in two markets.

8:10That's kind of waste, right? Like there's only a certain amount of people that can walk into a store and buy it at that time. So instead of doing what is more traditional and beverage, and you may or may not remember that Beyonce was in a Pepsi partnership for a few years right before that, right? And so it was, how do we do this different? There's clearly value alignment here. There's clearly interest. So instead of building a marketing campaign, she opted to come in as a cash investor as the business was going through a round of venture funding. And as a part of that, there was an announcement that was made.

8:45And that announcement served as a catalyst for the business. I mean, it really put watermelon water on the radar for other retailers, for other markets, et cetera. So she put her money in and then she put her name behind it, but not a marketing campaign in the beginning. And so there's so many elements to the story. So I'm a natural born storyteller. So I see how this is unfolding in so many different ways. And And so there is a business owner who is afraid that apples to apples, you might only be in two markets. And so you would close yourself off from an opportunity of getting somebody with a much bigger name.

9:16But the story takes so many different angles. And it says so much about Beyonce as an entrepreneur. It's like she will find a win when she knows the product is good and where it is. And so that's where I want to tap. That's where I wanted to start the story because people are listening and saying, wow, okay, so I understand she's a connector and she's an investor. So when you start your journey, you see what type of gap in the market. And then how do you say, I can connect this gap? Like, talk to us, go back a little bit of the origin story. So when I identify a product or when a business comes to me that is interested in having kind of an amplifier and that, you know, I say amplifier, celebrity can mean Beyonce's, it can mean athletes, it can mean, you know, creators.

9:55There's lots of ways to amplify now, but they're looking for that spark to the gas, right to really to put some major growth behind their their business or product i always start with value alignment first i really like to i understand what the attributes of the actual product are and then i start to look for celebrities that are not obvious and the reason that i do this and i think it's probably really important for your listeners to know is the super obvious categories are the ones that they're going to be locked up in for you know traditional endorsements right? Like, let's see, what's a good example to give you now.

10:32I mean, you listen, Gwen Stefani for many, many years had a Revlon relationship, I believe with Revlon, right? Because her make, right. And that gave her kind of expertise and permission and credibility to go out and build her own line later. But like, you know, she, you wouldn't bring a makeup line to, to somebody who's known for makeup. What we want to do is be, you know, Gwen Stefani, what else does she care about? God, turns out she loves dogs. She just like dies for a dog, but she doesn't have a pet deal. Okay. cool. We've identified this passion in her where it's not super obvious commercially, how do we connect with that passion?

11:07There's to your point about storytelling, there's inherent storytelling for her to do in it. She's going to care in a different way than, than she would if it's a partnership with a fortune 100 brand. And she's going to the fans and audience that she has access to are going to be surprised and delighted by something different than what she's telling them. And so those are really the keys that I look for is, and it's hard, like, how do you Google what is so-and-so not known for, you know? Right. But it does, you know, there's obviously a lot of information out there now on social people put out themselves, PR, et cetera, where you start to see where those gaps are and how you can connect those dots.

11:48Okay. I love this because I like looking. So one of my strengths would be a pattern spotter and then also like an editor and a distiller. And so where I'm going to leverage like my strongest muscle right now is distillation. So a lot of listeners right now would be like, sure, who wouldn't want to work with Beyonce or Gwen Stefani or any other big name out there? But as a small to medium sized business owner, what then would you do? And I immediately take this notion, this idea that we can all create a punch list and maybe at the top of the apex is Beyonce. But as you move lower down the pyramid, the next tier, like your next growth step might not be a mega celebrity.

12:18It might just be a local influencer who has around 5 ,000 to 10 ,000 followers who you could say, this is the punch list. And they might be known as a fashion or fitness influencer. But if you have a local dog product or if you're a local business owner, you might be able to say, well, she's not promoting coffee at this time. But if we were to create some sort of synergy with our coffee shop, with our roasters, that then this might be an alignment for her. So taking the same idea, but distilling it on a much smaller level so that you can work your way up the apex of the pyramid. Do I understand that correctly?

12:45Yes, absolutely. And Jasmine, you've hit on a really key part of this whole process, which typically starts before what I call the who, which is the fun part, right? Like who is, and that's building the foundation and understanding what your business needs. Start with the who it's very easy to get glamored, excited, distracted. And what you really want to do first and foremost, is think about what is your plan for growth? What milestones do you expect to hit? What customer is going to get you there? Is that your current customer? You need more of them, or are you going to go to the next concentric circle out of customers?

13:20What are the channels that you have the ability to activate on and that your potential customer is already there? What would you be willing to give up in order to get somebody? If we are talking about equity, like how much of your business are you gonna be willing to give up? And if there's investors or other people involved, are all stakeholders aligned on that? Because that's important. And then what are the deliverables that you think you would need from somebody? So I like to do all that foundation work. It's not popular. Everyone wants to go straight to the hook. That's the fun part. You do that first.

13:50And then what ends up happening is you get a really clear archetype of what you're looking for and the emotion gets taken out of it. And it's not just about who you think and who you're excited about and who you may be a fan of. It's really about, you know, and a really great example of this is, you know, for many years, every business or product that had like a sustainability angle wanted to work with Leo DiCaprio because he is known for being a sustainable celebrity who cares about the environment. And then we would dig in and, you know, be like, how do you plan? What's your plan to activate him?

14:22Oh, we want him to do social, but he's not active on social. So he may be a great value embodiment, but he's not going to push the business goals forward. So do you have a money for out of home campaign? Are you going to send in, you know, all these things? It's like, okay, no. Right. So you then make your list of who are the right people from super A-listers, you know, to influencers, creators, local, et cetera. And you always want to be gut checking against that original foundational work because then it becomes like the go no go becomes much, much easier to manage and you end up with a much more successful partnership.

14:56I couldn't agree more. Yes. And amen. And one thing that I want to go back on top on here was the distinction between getting an alignment of if you're going to bring somebody in talks of equity. Now, I feel like I have been watching the game for long enough to start denoting that brands were working with affiliates and partners. And then all of a sudden, Then we see 50 Cent and what he did to change the way that celebrities look at equity. And with the way we look at Rihanna and Fenty and the way that we see like even Beyonce and watermelon water. So I love this conversation because there are smaller business owners who might not have a large marketing budget on the front end, but who believe that in partnership with somebody that it would cost less up front, but then you're both building together.

15:38When did you start seeing that shift? And then how prevalent is it from my perspective? Like, I don't know. So it's like, what do you see? Like, are brands really wanting to build equity side on with somebody who has a strong personal brand? Or do you still really strongly see it as like, it's mostly partnerships? So the, the catalyst for that you already hit on it, you know, it began in this, I think the 50 cent vitamin water deal was in like 2006. And then I think vitamin water sold in 2008, 2009. So, but really when vitamin water sold and the rumors of that equity and how it paid off for 50 cents and they are rumors, I don't think he's ever said publicly, but you know, that started to become really pervasive.

16:13And that was the catalyzing event for the entertainment industry in particular to be like, Oh my, this is exciting. This is a different way to engage with brands. We don't just have endorsements now, now we have this other partnership. So that was when I started to, you know, my network that I had, had built from working with Madonna, which, you know, celebrities, influencers, et cetera, that I was trying to service in other ways with blue chip company consulting projects. They were asking me, my network was asking me for like, okay, yeah, sure. I'm interested in this cash deal, Denise, but I'm really interested in equity.

16:45Like what does this look like? And so that's literally how I got into it. My network started to ask me questions and I realized that there was an opportunity there. I would say that most entertainers and amplifiers have at least one experience with an equity deal at this point. I mean, it has got, you know, we've come a long way from 2008 and it can take a bunch of different forms. In the, in the first few years, it was very similar to what you saw with a 50 cent in vitamin water where there was a, you know, co-created product and there was an equity split and kind of like in the lane of what a commission or royalty commission would have looked like, but instead with the equity component, then we started to see equity being used as a transaction tool for campaigns.

17:27So instead of this in cash, would you prefer the same amount in shares, right? Then we started to, you know, there were some really early adopters on the celebrity founder, right? So we've got Jessica Alba, an honest company, and we've got Gwyneth Paltrow and Goop. And then around that time, we started to see a little bit of fatigue to the equity for marketing services. Like, okay, I still have to do all this work, but I have to wait five or six years till I get like, okay, I don't want to do that for every deal I'm in, but I still really like these brands. Oh, investing sounds cool. Then I can put money in and I can support brands that I love the way that I want to, but I don't have this list of deliverables that I'm required to do because I'm an investor.

18:13Okay. I want to start doing that now. And now we're at this, it's a bit bifurcated now in the sense we've got the Serena Williams and Kim Kardashians of the world who are launching venture and private equity funds. I mean, Serena Williams fund is not a family office. She raised capital, but it's her own fund. Like that is her, right? And same with Kim Kardashian. And then we've got celebrities starting their own businesses and taking venture capital and do it right. And we're seeing that the proliferation of that. So it's a very exciting time. And I really want to underline this for your listeners.

18:46It couldn't be a more exciting time to be a small business wanting to do a partnership like this. There are so many different ways to do it. There are so many ways to get creative and the entertainment and sports industry, they are more educated than they've ever been on this kind of structure. and they are willing in all sorts of different ways to entertain brand ideas, especially for products and concepts that they really love. I love this so much. And now again, this is where I'm gonna apply the distillation and then probably frameworking it. So a lot of listeners are building out pretty strong personal brands.

19:18And even if the strong personal brands happens to be like a niche within a niche, there is a lot of value for small like B2B SaaS companies to kind of bring on a very like several celebritized version of that person in an industry. So let's just say hypothetically as an example, and I'm being very selfish here because like this question is not even on my list of questions, but I'm like, Oh, I want to know this. Okay. Actually, instead of giving a different example, I'm just going to use this as a very selfish time to talk about something that I have encountered and it's totally new terrain for me.

19:46So we've developed a name and a voice in an industry. And there are companies who are coming to me wanting to create equity deals. and it's a whole new world. So if you could give three tips for anybody like myself, who regardless of the size of industry or size of following or size of voice, that what are three things that you would give as tips is when you are being pitched an equity deal, what are three things to take into consideration? Where does one start when evaluating, is this an alignment or a good fit for me? This is a great question. So the first tip would be to remember the adage of when you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else.

20:24And that could not be more true in this case, right? There's only, you only want to do so many equity deals because they are high risk, high reward, and they are, you know, they're like a long-term investment strategy. It's going to pay off later, right? So I would start with, you know, what, start thinking about what would I be not able to do if I took this partnership? And is it okay to take that off the table for me right now? The next thing that I would look at is if you were being approached for this kind of partnership with these kinds of deliverables in this kind of category, and you were being offered your current cash rate for that, what is that?

21:02And what would the number need to be to make you willing to defer that cash payment? Because that's what you're really doing. You know, if it's not able to do competitive deals, even when you're in an equity situation, right? So you have to think if I was going to make$25 ,000 for doing these things today, do I I believe that my contribution could help build this company to a place where if I just got paid two years later, it would be$200 ,000. And what is that threshold? And if the answer is no, then that's a real clear indicator to you that this is not the category of business that you should be taking an equity deal in.

21:38And then the third is it's really important to know who you're in business with and to do some research on their ability to, you know, who's on their board, who's advising them. Are they going to really be able to, because you can only have so much influence as a partner. Some, but you have to really believe not only in the product, but in the leadership of the team. And like, are they going to be able to go the distance and grow? And is it going to turn into something for you? So that was so good. I feel like I'm just using this as a complete side note opportunity as such a win. So thank you for that.

22:09So as people are listening, and then I started off with like a really great story about Beyonce. And then we talk about 50 Cent and we are frameworking and run ideas, let's say with Gwen Stefani. It seemed like a natural progression for her to partner up with Revlon, but yet we know she's now a dog lover and this is like a great opportunity. And then we go through, we start frameworking how it might be distilled down into smaller markets and doing it in a local area. And then we also talked about what it might look like to build a personal brand and get equity or some sort of partnership in a smaller microcosm of a niche.

22:35Great. So people hear all of this and think it's really impressive. But let's go back to the version of Denise that you decide you're going to leave the amazing experience that working with Madonna has been. And now you're an entrepreneur. Let's go back to her and let's build the story around how do you decide I'm going to freelance? I'm going to start this business. Like, where is your mindset? Because there are listeners who are like, I'm going to do something based on this unique insight that I have. Where do I start? How do I feel? What was the development of you as an entrepreneur back then?