Nonverbal Communication Secrets That Drive Sales and Build Trust with Blake Eastman

23:22This is like 14 years ago. Okay. And I got a fair amount of people straight from my YouTube channel to that to purchase. Okay. They purchased. They became my first customers. That product is in its, it's going to, the third version is coming out next year. So the people that crowdfunded it now, it's like$2 ,000. So I still gave, but when you say crowdfunded, can you explain in terms? Like I basically, I didn't crowdfund it. I sold the product before I made it. Oh, got it. Like everybody else like that, right? Okay. But the problem was I started doing the research and I got so involved that instead of it taking three months, it ended up taking 10 years.

23:57So we did three studies. I went very hard. I went more in AD. It was some of the most, it was some of the toughest times in my life. Like, because I didn't know, I was very good at product. I was good at research. I wasn't good at running a business. So I went to millions of dollars of debt and the IRS came after me. Like all those fun entrepreneurial stories. but I wouldn't be the person I am today without that level of, like the reason why I'm good at writing emails is because I needed to eat and pay my rent from writing emails. Like people are like, sit me there. How do you write that email in 20 minutes?

24:30Cause well, it didn't take 20 minutes at first, you know, three days thinking about each word. And then it just gets easier and easier and easier. I love this. And I do believe that like sometimes whoever's in this, if you're in that mode of like that pressure on you, you don't realize like you're developing skill sets now that I promise will serve you if you just keep going five years. I wouldn't be able to do what I'm about to do without all of that as a track record or as a background. And we're going to get to that. But I remember in 2024, I sat in a room with a group of very successful people, founders, and the person who was facilitating it looked around, who was vastly more successful than all of us combined.

25:07And he had said, everybody needs to stop acting like they're rich. He's like, stop acting like you're rich. He's like, do you remember when you actually had to pay your rent? based on what it is you were doing. He's like, you did whatever it took. And now you're overthinking and overanalyzing and having the long-term effects. He's like, stop acting like you're rich and write and create and do. And I'm telling you, I left that room like somebody had lit me on fire. I was charred to the core. And I was like, you ain't rich, girl. And you acting like you're a billionaire. You're acting like you have so much time and optionality when we don't.

25:37I've been there. I've done the same thing. You make some money. Now I need this, this, this, this, this, this. And it's all just you hiding out. that like that's really what for me at least okay it was all me hiding out so hiding out for me led me to understand like a deeper and different part of me and that was when I started to expand the business beyond what I thought was possible I started building a team and so because I knew that I prefer to work from home I prefer I'm best solo I wanted a virtual team and so I was good with that that's the type of team that I had built and so now I want to know after having done it for a few years?

26:14How do I show up better? Like how do I, how am I coming across on team meetings? And so how do we increase the awareness of how we're being perceived? And then how do we control how people are made to feel? All right. So the team stuff's really easy, but like first, the first thing is it's all about alignment. So you know, the single, what do you think the single biggest complaint, all my executive team, every company I've coached, what's the single biggest complaint that people have about their boss? What do you think it is? Not nonverbal. I don't know. That they can't tell their boss what their boss is doing wrong?

26:46No, it's, they change direction. Oh, God. It's the biggest one. Oh, see, but this is, did you see my nonverbal? Do you see how I'm like, I don't buy them for anything. I was like, y 'all tried driving a ship. Y 'all tried driving a ship in a torrential downpour in the middle of a, like, tornado. You tried to do a tornado, a hurricane, hurricane around the water. That's the first. See, did you see me? Do you see how I did? But what you just said is the answer to my question. So the answer to the question for leaders is 100 % to build a good team. Your team needs more context than you're giving them.

27:17So you can show up however you want as long as you own the context. Like people don't like erratic behavior. But if you tell someone, listen, I'm so busy. I've got all these things going on. I'm doing all these podcasts. I don't have time for these like 30-minute meetings. So can we just make it like really short or like message me in Slack? people understand but when you don't give context you just come across like you know whatever and and that's what a lot of leaders do is they don't give context so okay you had your whole team working in this direction and now you're like we're not doing that anymore we're going this direction yeah you could spend three to five minutes explaining the intricacies of why you made that decision so that they don't feel like their work has been diminished or they don't feel like their work has been this all right it's just it's not that hard it's just you need to over communicate not under communicate and then your team will appreciate love and under most importantly, you'll be aligned.

28:08They'll understand you. Okay. Can I give an example? And can you dissect it like a professor, like a case study? Okay. Okay. So in January of 2025, we had reestablished our core values and it took us a lot of time to do this and a lot of energy and months building into it. And so in January, the first team meeting, all hands, people come in and I put together a keynote. I treated this like I was on a keynote on a stage and I practiced it. And I said, here is our 2025 plan. Here are our new core values. This is what's going to be expected. And I felt excited. I felt nervous. I was like, okay. And at that time, I'm studying and researching for our interview.

28:46And one of the things that you had said is to understand how you are being perceived is to not look at yourself in a Zoom meeting or at your keynote, but to look at people's faces as you're giving it. So I went in being like, I'm going to apply B, Eastman, Racer quality. And let me tell you it was like freaking stonehenge everyone's like and if you're not if you're just listening you're not watching on youtube just picture um the blanket stares of all time and it wasn't just like one person it was everybody in the world's blanket stare so i was like girl you can be you're on fire and not in the alicia keys ways like you just burning down or i'm like they're just so riveted they don't know how to verbal they don't know how to wear their expressions but i'm looking i got off that call and i was like i don't know so what do i do then and i was looking i was looking So there's a, I can have like 10 pockets just on that statement.

29:37Okay. So first it's like one taking responsibility for your impact on others. So you have a lot of energy. You're extremely quick. You're extremely intelligent. You're to the point. You're this, you're that. So somebody who feels like, even if you call yourself an introvert, someone that feels like their behavior is more concerned or if you're predicting ahead of them, they might have a little fear like going up against what you're saying. Oh, I know. Or fear challenging you. Or fear, like, so that's, yeah. So you have to be able to create a... Okay, well, fix me. Isn't that like a... The easiest way to contextually fix, the easiest way to...

30:12So nothing's broken. I'm big on that. Oh my God, oh my God. But the easiest... No, no, no, but I'm a straight shooter. Just tell me, like, girl, you broke, like, you broke and you're a puzzle. The easiest way to say it is like, listen, I know I come across as XYZ and ABC. Here's what I really need from all of you to do. I need you to push back. I need you to do this and routinely ask for it. and usually once one or two people start breaking it, then it creates that. But a lot of people that they say that, but they don't want pushback. So be clear if you want pushback, right? No, I do. Yeah, so if you want pushback, it's totally fine.

30:42So it's like, we need to create an environment where I'm hearing everybody else's thoughts because they feel like it's just, no pun intended, Jasmine show, right? Like I want to be able to make sure you speak and then you could put in systems. Like I want everybody to start off with what we can do better. I'm not gonna say anything and just let them go first and create structures that don't get them sort of concerned. Yeah. And then also the whole thing about core values, I mean, I like core principles better than values. Values are hard to scale in my opinion. So like I did this, we just did this thing called behavioral core values where we say like, let us tell you what your values are.

31:14You don't tell them what the values are. So you're going to go on everybody's website, right? Yeah. And they say like, we respect, we respect everybody's opinion. And then I'm watching a meeting and they're like, that's not a good idea. Anyways, okay. So it's like, you clearly don't expect, like these things are really hard to like, spread throughout an organization. So usually companies will have like five or six core values on their website or sometimes 10, which is absurd. But like, let's say that. We have three. Okay, that's really good. Okay, well, we went from five to three. Yeah, I'm a big believer in that.

31:44And I really have seen that some of the most phenomenal teams really embody one really well. And that's it. Like, I'm like, you're not this, you're not this, you're not this, you're not this, but you really do embody this one principle and that's what creates all the cohesion and alignment. So usually what we do with like organizations is like, all right, yours three is great. So if you had three core values, what I would do is every quarter would be a focus on one of the core values of integrating it and doing that more. And then like also for all of you that have like core values out there, you got to show visceral examples of what those core values are.

32:20So for example, like one of our like principles is like we always do the right thing. and like what does that mean always do the right thing so i have to show all the linkedin examples and all the stories of like somebody's you know somebody's mom just died and they have practically no money and it's four months later yeah you could violate our refund policy no problem for that do the right thing you know somebody was i was once inspired by this one kid that was like fully paralyzed and he was playing poker and he was like making jokes with me on on email i was like what inspiration this kid give him everything for free like do the right thing and the more you show examples of what that is it's easier for the person to sort of understand right and and i really believe if you if you gain one core value and it's a good one and then you have good examples and you reinforce that throughout your culture you're way better off than a company that has eight and it's just like what is this and the i can talk about this for hours the the number one thing with like let's say core values or principles is it starts with hiring you have to hire people that are aligned with the values.

33:21Okay, okay, okay, okay. It's like you set me up to move to section three, but can you help me get better? Yeah. So we went from five to three. We didn't take any of the former core principles. The new core values are core principles. When you had said, normally a team will all drive to one. It was so clear what that one is. And then if I have two that I am going to be, I told the team, we're playing a new game and there's new levels and there's new expectations. So two of the three, I think everybody on the team has the capacity to achieve and work towards. Time will tell if that is, in fact, what it is that they embody and behold.

34:01But the core value that everybody beyond a shadow of a doubt, and I say this with so much humility because this team is nothing short of remarkable, powerful. The thing that I've heard the most about the team in 2024, the word that kept on coming up was excellent, excellence. And I didn't like that word. For me, it just felt too corporate-y. it didn't feel like I can sink my teeth into. A lot of work went into the core value of extraordinary is our baseline. And I could look, I mean, that's the one. This team is extraordinary, but extraordinary with customer service, extraordinary, like doing the right thing, extraordinary with the content, the attention to detail.

34:32And so if I know that we have a natural penchant and direction towards that, do I first lean into that one and say, hey, here are more examples, let's do this? Or do I say, hey, we know we got this one. And then we start with the others and focus quarter or month. I mean, we have the very same principle. Ours is like the bell curve. It's called, we say three standard deviations to the right. Oh God, tell me, oh God. Tell me you work for a smart guy. Three standard deviations to the right. It's like, if this is what everybody else is doing in a customer service interaction, how is this different?

35:02People who are not watching the video. So you have like, you have this bell curve distribution, right? And most people fall on the average. And like, as you move to the right or left of the bell curve, it becomes less average. So like, if you go three standard deviations to the right and you start moving to the right of the bell curve, it's an experience that that person's like, oh, wow, I've never experienced this before. I never experienced a customer service interaction like this before. I love this. I never experienced an onboarding like this before. I never experienced. And that's what, so sometimes I'll look at a piece of, so like my Instagram content that I started posting, right?

35:30Yes, I'm very proud of you. It's like new Blake. So we went, we posted it and I was, we had a conversation about this. I was like, we're in the middle of the bell curve. So our goal over this next thing is to move that to the right side of the bell curve. Now, this was a problem for me where I was afraid to be seen unless products were all the way on the right side of the bell curve. So you just want to, you got to still get out there and then start moving it. But I think having that one principle and have everybody reinforce that principle is way better to pick up the like ancillary thing. Like you have to understand that if that's your core value, and that's what you're really indexing on, you're going to get people that have a commitment to craft.

36:09You're going to get people that value their work. And those are all the core values that are a byproduct of that major thing. So I think that is perfect. So, and then what I hear you say, so I repeat it back is we start here. Cause if we take a focus every month on a core value, or you said every quarter, correct? Every quarter. So we would start here. I would just, I would. And positive reinforcement and just more. Reinforce all of that. And everybody gets, everybody will get rewarded. So like, like somebody just said, well, we should do this. And I was like, amazing idea. Like, I love it. And it's like a little bit more closer to excellence.

36:39Okay. Closer to excellence. Closer to excellence. And you know what I'm going to say in the back of my mind? Cause I hang out with smart people. Three deviations to the right, baby. 30 deviations. Right. Like that's my own personal mantra. Okay. So when it comes to attracting a team that will not just embody core values, let's talk about when we're hiring. Because you said, it's going to be important for you to have a team. I want to talk about two instances where I feel like I, maybe you have smart language. What I call it is I'm pretty intuitive or I can read people. But I've been so notoriously wrong during interviews around reading people.

37:15And I'm going to give you two examples and then you can break it down. So I was hiring for UI, user interface. And our CTO had said, this person, this person's it. So as a general practice, everybody who comes onto the team, they do their final interview with me and with our COO. So we're having this conversation and I thought I was interviewing the wrong person. Hand to heaven, I was like, there's just no way. I'm like, this is wrong. This is wrong. And I'm not going to use this person's gender. So this person was kind of like slouched, very quiet, and would quick nod instead of saying yes. And very simple answers that all ended with a question mark.

37:56Where did you go to school? University question mark. And I thought, I got off and I said, there's just no way. So I went to the CTO. I was like, are you sure that this was the right person? He's like, this is the right person. I will come back to say that I trusted him, which was a very good decision. She was one of the, I said she wasn't going to use her gender. Dang it. This person strongest UI. She was so good. She ended up getting poached. I was so wrong with that, Blake. So there's cultural considerations. There's how am I, but what do I look for? And then I have somebody else who's bombacious and, oh, I do very well.

38:29Cause we say we're straight shooters. Our cultural norm is radical candor. Like I don't need a lot of emojis after. I just need you to do what you say and say what you do. And every time you get it, it's going to be a yes. And if I say great job, I really mean great job, but you're not going to get anything more. Cause if you're not doing great job, I'm not going to tell you great job. If you didn't hear it, you know it. It's just that. And so this one's like, oh, I'm a 10 out of 10. This person's sensitive, like a wild flower in the rain. I was like, homie, you just wilting right now. I was wrong on both ends of the spectrum.

38:52So help me. Yeah, that's a, it's really interesting. So it's a by-product of preference and your own lenses for people. So you're over-indexing social acumen or social effectiveness for being a by-product of somebody's like work like i have worked with people that are anxious and awkward and would not know what to do in a room of people and are incredible at what they do and our society i mean this is kind of the pitch for all the stuff that i do like it's almost not fair like our society places so much emphasis on the ability to speak on the ability to be confident and hold a position and make a choice and all that stuff but there are a lot of diamonds out there that just aren't good at that Okay, well, help me.

39:34Yeah, like, I mean, that would be, I would just, I would literally just put a post-it note on your laptop and be like, you know, high level of socialization is your preference, Jasmine, exclamation, just as a way of not sort of diminishing somebody because of the fact that they're not showing up in a way that you like them to show up. And also. Oh, so what I hear is, it's a me thing. It's 100 % you. Yeah. I mean, like, because think about it. You have a cool process. You trust your COO. You've got all this stuff. and then they get to you and you're like, there's no way. It's like, now there's a big difference.

40:07If you had to interact with this person on a daily level. Facts, facts, facts. Then you can't. Like I was interviewing an EA that I loved on paper. And then when we were talking, she asked me to slow down. She's like, real quick, can you just slow down? I was like, it's not going to work. It's like, I am slowing down so much right now. Like I'm even slowing down for this podcast. Like I'm extremely quick, right? So like sometimes I don't even know what I'm saying. Like I'm like, what did I just say? Right, the words come out faster than your brain process. I've always been like that. So that's a byproduct of preference.

40:42If I ever talk to this person even for 20 minutes every day, that's good. That's really good. I can take it, right? So also you have to understand your team. All right, so I'll tell us a quick story. So I was sitting there having my own like movie night and at like 1030, my COO at the time, who's now a really good friend, sends me a Slack message, which is like weird. and it's long and i was like oh like what did i do and basically we had a meeting and i like came in and i like bulldogged my way and i kind of diminished her in the meeting and she's like listen i it's very difficult like you're very quick on your feet i'm a better writer i need to think my thoughts out i need to get better at that he's like i'm never going to compete with you in those settings and you basically just diminished my authority in front of my entire team and i was like i'm so sorry you're 100 right here's what we'll do let's switch to what your optimal channel of communication is she's like what do you mean i was like just write everything so we don't need to have meetings like write it out in narrative form what we need to do and i'll say yes good done so sometimes you just got to play to whatever the person's strength is because sometimes they don't want to change and they don't want to be i don't need everybody on my team to be gregarious and good communicators not necessary like do whatever you want if you want to develop that, I'll help you.

41:57I'm glad to, but I don't need it. So sometimes if you find people's best communicate and just simply ask them like, what's your, how would you prefer to do this? Oh, I would love to just write everything out. It helps me structure. Okay, great. Or I want to have meetings or I want to do looms or I want to do whatever. It just makes it a ton easier. Oh, I love that. Speaking of an EA and here again, I'm saying a story, but it's with an ask. So we have a 30, 60, 90 trial period whenever we bring somebody on in hiring position. And so I hired an EA. I thought she was phenomenal, extraordinarily articulate.

42:27Her communication was on point. And I was like, great, because my EA is going to be an extension of me outward facing. And 30 days into it, I'm like, I'm just not sure. So he said, okay, here's clear benchmarks to get us to day 60. So we have our check-in around day 65. And I, honest to God, I'm showing up and our COO was on the call because I told her, I'm like, hey, I don't think this is going to work. It's very clear it's not going to work. And so we get on the call and this woman is saying, well, what I need is, and what you don't understand is, and I thought we were going to have a meeting where she was going to say, it's not a fit.

43:01I was so sure that she saw it plain as day, baby, you can hang. And it was, well, I, and as she's going, I'm pretty sure my face, my nonverbal communication was subpar. Yeah. So much so that in a private Zoom message, the CEO says, fix your face. And I was like, whoa, oh, I was in such a state of disbelief that I couldn't help but where like, I was like, are we, are you going to make me, are we going to do this right now? In those moments, how do I actually channel or divert my nonverbal communication? Well, in that example, it didn't really even matter, right? Oh, right. Like in that example, it's almost like, okay, I guess this is like another podcast.

43:46So facial awareness is a whole thing, right? Like people's awareness of what they look like on their face. So right there in that moment, you lacked facial awareness. You didn't. But the truth was, it sounded like what I'm hearing is that the sentiment of your face was actually in alignment with what you were thinking. Oh, yeah. So you were 100 % aligned. The problem is when it's mismatched. So the problem is when it's like, I kind of disagree with what you're saying just a little bit. And I'm like, what? but I just slightly disagree. And it looks like I really strongly disagree. Or when I'm really interested in everything you're saying and I'm like, you just had 100 % alignment.

44:25I don't see anything wrong with that. And like for my team, I mean, this is a preference and this is a style. I lead, everybody that works for me. Some people say it's good, but it's like family. Like that's just how I do things. And I talk in a way that will definitely get me canceled if some of these things gets out. And I just am my – because I don't know how to be – I don't want to have any friction for how I show up in front of a large group of people. It's a lot different if you're in a big corporate environment and can't do these kind of things. But at the end of the day, like in those 30, 60, 90, I will tell you, you will be a considerably better leader if you simply just – if you have a problem, address it immediately.

45:03And in a just straightforward way. Like, listen, we're 30 days in and already in the first 10 days, you relate four times. This, this, this happened. Just help me understand what's going on for you. Like, just what's going on. And sometimes people say, listen, I want to bring this up. And it's some crazy they're dealing with. Like, totally got you. Don't worry. Let's restart in 10 days. And sometimes they go, what are you talking about? And just right then and there, it's like, you're done. So people are, I've seen a lot of people. I've coached, oh, we're quick to hire and quick to fire. No, you're not.

45:38You're quick to hire. You're quick to thinking about all the reasons why you should fire someone, but you don't actually pull the trigger. And what you're doing is a disservice for that person. So whenever you see a problem with someone, you're like, I don't think this is going to work. This is what happens, right? So human behavior is just so interesting. You see somebody do something. So let's say I have a designer, right? And I tell them, so my team, I don't like, this is an actual real story. so I don't like rounded buttons they piss me off I like square buttons and maybe one to two pixel radius on the thing I got it I got it speak my language and like I said this like three times and they're like it was a joke so they laid out this comp and every button was like a full circle okay right and then I look and I'm like I go like that like what and they all started laughing and they reverted the change and I told them I was like let me let me explain to you why I'm so weird about these things.

46:29I have such a visual obsession that when something doesn't look right to me, I have a hard time pushing it. So like, like a sales page or something that has like errors and stuff like that. And I had to get over that because it was becoming a real problem. Like, this should be 13 bold, not 12 or use this font. You're not that fun. But once I explain the context, they're like, okay, I get why you're a weirdo. Totally. Like we got you. Like we understand. And then I give them permission. Like you were allowed to spend an extra five hours making this landing page visually perfect on every browser.

47:03I have no problem with that. You're allowed to spend 50 hours. Like that's the kind of thing I'm looking for and I'll reward. So don't send me like, and the more you have that discussion, the easier. But then when I have somebody that I hire and in the first week I say all this, they don't do it on day seven. I'm like, listen, I said all these things to you. You didn't seem to do that. I'm like, I'm just trying to get the source why and they go well it just doesn't go with like i didn't feel right i'm like okay they don't get that this is my company that you're creative and i respect what you're doing but i'm intimately involved in this it's like you need to work with somebody that's like i don't care about design right just get it done right and i'll have that conversation with them and i'm like this is going to be a lot of friction because the end of the day i like your creativity but i want it my way so if you're okay with that let's keep going but if you're gonna have to keep pushing back, this isn't going to work.

47:52And they go, it's going to be hard for me. I'm like, okay, great. So I have some friends that I think you'd be great for, but you're not going to be good here. Just done. Instead of why the hell I told them I wanted to use black and they used gray and just avoid all the suffering just by being straight and clear with people. Okay. So one thing that we were talking about was our nonverbal behavior, are how to show up better as a leader, how to read and communicate with hiring a team and what are things that we should be looking for. But what I hear you say, if I am on an interview and I have a strong preference towards something, and if I now have my post-it note, I'm gonna follow your advice.

48:30Like just my preference is not an indication of somebody's ability to succeed. So if then I know that, what can I look for? If not their nonverbal behavior when 99.9%, and I'm not trying to argue a case for me. I'm just like, help me, help me see something that I can't see. Help me get back. I mean, this is very preference wise, but like when my, so first of all, everybody like tries to look for signs of like, what are the nonverbal signs of trust? Like what? Like there are nonverbal signs that are associated with the perception of a trustworthy face for sure. Like, you know, if all of a sudden, like you could take a giant, put a giant scar across someone's face and it probably decreases the marker of trust, even though they might be the most trustworthy person in the world.

49:11At the end of the day, trust is a byproduct of somebody doing something and saying they're going to do something. They do it and you start to trust them, right? So I think most interviews are not really associated with trust or more so like, can I work with this person? Like, do I enjoy spending time with this person? Like, is this person capable and confident of what they're going to do? And it depends on what's going on. So, for example, if I'm hiring a designer, I might have them, I might pull up a design and tell me like, what do you think is wrong with this and why? to see if we're on the same page with the problem.

49:42They might call out all the same problems. If I'm in a conversation with somebody who's going to run sales calls, they better be quick on their feet. They better be able to answer. I'm looking for different measures. So I really think you need to write down what does this role require? What am I looking for in the person in this role? And then you literally, they meet all these things. Check, check, check, check, check, check. That's good. But most people that are like, I don't trust that person, it's like you don't even know them. like how do you really that's your own stuff probably now if they just flat out lie and then it's understandable and you could do some more machiavellian things like you could like lie like oh like for example i'm just designing this like oh have you heard of that like figma extension like lilo that like reformats all the comps yeah no it's really good i like i just made that up there's no such thing just to see if they like latch on to certain things like Like you could do stuff like that, but just, you know, and I really believe that like, if you go into like chat GPT and write out like, give me like a simple hiring process.

50:46Like it's still probably at like pretty decent level if you follow it, right? It's not gonna pick up on the nuance. But a lot of entrepreneurs, especially in your type of audience, like you're not running like series backed, $100 billion bill. You're optimizing for your life, for your lifestyle. You're going to interact with these people more. So it's really important that you... I like this personal. Likeability is not important in a lot of areas, but I do think it is at these sizes of business because you're going to spend your time with these people. You're going to interact with these people.

51:19It's important. So I'm going to tell you very quickly about seven minutes ago, maybe two minutes ago, when you had said, when it comes to that role, what are the things that actually truly matter? And in both of the situations that I had given in regards to hiring for UI and then another person we had hired to be a product manager was so distinctly, I didn't indicate and create a hierarchy of what was most important for them to do what it is they did. And it had zero to do with personality, even if they were my direct report. And it's like, I felt like I got my fangs and I sunk my teeth directly into that.

51:51And I'm like, I have such a clear idea now of how I need to show up because it was a me thing. Do I send you my therapy bell? And also, can people deal with you? That's a lot of other stuff. Like, can people deal with whoever, whatever it is that you are, whether it's your quiet and more reserved or your nonstop talking? Like, some people just can't. Like, we had an intern once from Columbia back in the day. And I, like, in the middle of the, I was like, what the f*** is that? I say that a lot. And she's like, oh, she went like that. I was like, do you have a problem with cursing? And she's like, oh, yeah.

52:25Like, I'm like, this is not going to work. I'm like, I curse nonstop. And I'm not going to censor myself for you. Like, I'm sorry. so if like I'd love to have you here but if you're gonna really be that viscerally offended by me cursing you're gonna hate work in here and it's just quick to say things like that's that's the way you build the feedback loops like that's the whole thing like everybody wants these like non-verbal like little the non-verbal stuff it's so much more deeper and complex than people ever really think so the most thing you want to do is your own perception like where are you projecting your thoughts your wishes your demands onto other people and then that's sabotaging your business.

53:01And I really think one of the best ways to do that is like video. Like, what do you look like on video? I actually love when people make me uncomfortable with how I need to get better. So coming off that all hands meeting and I left a lot of space at the end for Q and A. And I told myself, because you know how I like chess out what's going to happen. I knew that it was going to be quiet. Like I'm a bull in a china shop, right? Like I speak fast. I cast a big vision. I made everybody excited. And I also probably know I made people uncomfortable. And so I told myself, you're going to sit in silence for as long as it takes.

53:32And somebody broke the barrier. She always does. She's just phenomenal. And then another patch of silence. And then the second person to ask a question had asked a question and I answered it exactly how I meant to answer it. And when I asked RCO, I was like, hey, give me some feedback on that call. It was kind of like, I didn't know how to read it. Like, I think people said they were excited, but then the small part of me is like well they said they were excited but were they really excited and so then I go down the vortex and so she's a straight shooter that's our relationship you tell me exactly how it is like no chaser and she had said she's like I think that everybody got what you put down she's like but when you had answered x and you just said that answer you said your answer and I was I immediately took it I processed it and then I said yes but I make no apologies because I told everybody that our cultural norm is radical candor.

54:25So I'm going to say what I'm going to mean to say. And you know that I love you and I do you and I'm going to be playing at a different level. So are you at this level? Because if you're not at that level, I'm cool, but I'm going to say what I'm going to say. And I think that the 2024 version of me would have been like, oh, I think I need to send like a follow-up and be like, hey, just want to make sure that you're seen and heard. But I'm like, I actually make no apologies for what I said or how I said it because that's going to be what's going to be required from me. But I don't know if that's the...

54:50Well, yeah, there's, so two things. One, that question thing. Yeah. For those of you who do webinars and a bunch of other things, if that comes up, plant the questions. So you should have had one person ask a question that would open up the space. Oh, that's good. You know, like just have them do it, right? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, good. That's really helpful. But the second thing is like... And hold on, as a point of clarity, what Blake was trying to say is when you anticipate that there might be a blank spot and nobody's asking questions, he's saying that the first person to break the barrier is the person who breaks the barrier.

55:24But so many times people don't want to break the barrier. So what he's saying is plant the barrier breaker. And also if you're running group programs, like community programs, same thing. Oh, good. So like have one, the first post, like introduce yourself. Yes. That should be planned. Yes. Because it'll set the norm for what is acceptable for every post. So that's the standard just thing. But also, okay, so radical candor, right? Book and everybody has definitions of what that actually means. it is very very very difficult for people to encapsulate the principle of radical candor so it's it's your preference it's what you like but it's hard for some certain people i know that like view you as and also you have to understand on the hierarchy it is like the jazz you're you're like up there so they have they might have a little bit of stuff like oh my god i mean it happened with you on that podcast on that thing I did so basically you were like what thing you were so nice on the on the Gary Vaynerchuk thing oh yeah you're so nice you're like you're like I'm trying to ask for more of what I'm like oh my gosh are we really gonna go here are you like everybody know how pathetic I'm this oh my god oh my god he's going here he's going here okay well set the scene set the scene set the scene so I finished the word I finished this webinar and my mind is blown and you're like and you're like just quick quick question um and you're I'm trying to ask for more of what I want in life.

56:43And will you come on my podcast? And I was like, yeah, of course, right? And then I just forget about it. And then I go to like Jasmine Star Podcast. I'm like, what the hell? This thing is huge. And then like we have tons of mutual friends and all these people. And I was like, why would you? Like that's so, but it actually really did. That was like an endearing quality of you, I thought. It wasn't like, listen, Blake, I have this like top podcast. It will really help you. it instantly makes me like you because I don't like that version of you know like people that are like oh so I can like boost your calm down right like it's that kind of thing but it was such an interesting sort of dynamic but that's what I mean like you communicated in a way that was like sort of my preference for like I was like oh that's humble that's cool like I love that I'd be glad to do it even if it was five followers right like but I thought that was interesting now with the back to the rattle candor thing it's like you somehow in that social construct it wasn't radical it was like you weren't aggressive so basically you're going to be so much more no but radical candor is not aggression no it's not it's just saying what you say but I think, this is a theory I think it's saying what you say but saying what you say, it's impossible to do that it's always saying what you say and then the tone, the energy, it amplifies what you're saying oh my god I can say like that was a great podcast or I can say like, that was a great podcast or like, that was a great podcast.

58:12I said the same exact words. It completely changed how it's going to be perceived. So what's likely to happen is when you're with your team and you own a company, you're probably going to feel the most safe, the highest level of authority, the highest level of all the things that you would normally fill in other days. So that radical candor might have a little edge to it. It might be like, you know, this is me. This is what's going on. And you got to understand that some very effective, high performing people, they can't deal with that. You're also extremely quick. And some people that are, they just, they might be flooded with like cortisol and they're like, and it's, they don't know how to like respond immediately to that.

58:54Ah, Blake freaking Eastman. Okay. So I'm going to tell you what we're going to do. It's a rabbit hole. You know, we're going to do, I'm clipping that part of the podcast and I am starting a team meeting. I have team members here on this recording day and I'm casually, not so casually looking over at them. And listen, I have enough self-awareness to know that like when somebody's like, girl, you're drunk at the bar, I'm drunk at the bar, right? So I'm going to clip this and my word is I will show the clip to the team. And then when you say that was a great podcast, that was a great podcast. That was a great podcast.

59:25You want to hear Blake? Because I'm so linear, he thought it was great. And so when I say you're doing a great job, great job. I have to under it takes so much energy for me like who am I dealing with hey look at me look at me you're doing phenomenal I can't Blake that's interesting I wouldn't have thought so we have an inventory for this it's called a contextual and literal spectrum so what we found in teams is fascinating what we found in teams is like alright so if I sent you a text message alright let's say you sent me a text message after Blake was so great having you blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:00:01Let's get together with your wife and my husband for dinner sometime, right? And I just went, okay. Would you see okay as, okay, he wants to go to dinner? Yeah. So you don't have anything about that? I would like, well, this is what I would do. Yeah. Be like, let me know who to contact or if I should follow up. Okay. I'm just asking like, how do I play your game? This was interesting. So you're probably more on the literal side of the spectrum, right? So we have to understand is when you have literals and contextuals on the same team, the friction's insane. I can't. Is this the, like Myers-Briggs, INTJ, like literal, like thinkers and feelers.

1:00:34Dude, I'm telling you, I have a hard time with feelers. Feelers and I, we don't, we're like oil and water, brother. No, just think of it as contextual and literal. So literals are not adding more information to messages. Contextuals are projecting their own meaning onto messages. And I've told people on the team, I was like, when I tell you one thing, I mean that one thing. There's no other story. If you need more pieces, I'm an open book. Ask me, ask me anything. I will tell you you have to like you have to like drill that into people right so i'm i'm contextual so my team there's a rule there was a rule for a while that's now it's not you cannot give me a one-word answer so if somebody on my team says yes i'll go are they mad at me oh like it's the thing i said is this thing i do like i'm always solving these puzzles so i have to say no it's yes emoji it's yes thumbs up and if there's and also like i have you you're that's cool when you're a founder you could do your own stuff so i have like this rule like if you're in my space and something's wrong you have to tell me because i'm like a hawk so like if you had a fight with your husband or your wife your partner whatever and you're on a meeting and you're just like this and you're not your normal self you better text me or call me right before saying hey blake did and i'll coach you through that but i'm not do not come into the office like upset or bringing that back because i'll be like oh my god like what is it is it me that was my own thing when i was now better but back in the day i used to take on my friend mike brown uh had a quote you have a responsibility to your people not for them i was always felt responsible for my team their livelihood their happiness or success through this and i took it personally when they weren't living their best life i thought it was my fault so like that can so for me you know somebody's like just being literal oh that's causing a lot of suffering because i worked you to death last week and i I said, hey, did you enjoy your vacation?

1:02:22And you just said yes. And I go, no, I really did. It was amazing. I was like, yeah, but when you said yes, I heard yes. It wasn't long enough. It wasn't long enough. And I don't like working for you. So what you find is there's a lot of people out there that are contextual. And I mean, I guess you're doing the right thing. Here's what I'll say. You're doing the right thing. I will tell people. As long as you're telling people. I will tell people. But what I take away as good isn't good. I must be extraordinary with this team. is that I have to say it again and again and again and again and again.

1:02:54Well, you just, you know, the most effective way is just find out, like I could send you some questions, find out who's who. And then you know who, that's what I do. No, I know. I can tell you right now. I don't have, no questions. I can tell you right now, but make me better. I know there's people who, I know that there are, and I refuse to take the energy to say like, how do I need to change? Because if I've told you, and see, this is why, is like how I have a husband, the world should be happy I met him when I was 17 because there's no way someone's come up to me. I'm like, I am literally like, this is the organization and this is how I run.

1:03:29So I'm not going to come to be like, how do you best communicate? Because I'll say, I'm an open book. I am down for you. I will throw myself in a freaking bus in front of you. Ask me what you need. I think that's totally fine. You just have to, no, I have no problem with that. One, you just have to take responsibility. might be causing some suffering for the people that don't adhere to that okay we're clipping this part too yeah and then two i mean you're gonna clip this part but like you gotta gut the people that aren't on well now i can't show that part because then they're gonna be like everyone's gonna be like hey jasmine no but it's just honest to god truth like like you're allowed to create the construct of a company however the hell you want to create it but it's like people are either on board or not and when they're not on board and struggling so i would say that it's much easier to say like instead of yes, you could ask, you could say yes, great work, exclamation to the people that need it more.

1:04:23I feel like that's like a one second adjustment that has a profound impact. So you find the people who need a little bit more and you give them just a little bit more. No, not crazy. Not writing full paragraphs how you want to communicate. But yeah, great job. Thank you so much. Done. And to the more literal person. I think it's fair. Very fair. It's a micro adjustment, I would say. But I am so literal that I actually appreciate when people don't say yes. They'll just in Slack put a little check mark like i'm just like you saw it cool i don't need another notification that's how and i get it i'm very extreme but what i hear and i actively take away is adding two more words takes two seconds and it can really change the dynamic of somebody who needs it yeah so the whole joke the reason i'm laughing is i had a cto once that was this russian guy and he was like i don't know like in a russian accent yes like i don't know why i need to put emoji in it like i I said, yes, yes means yes.

1:05:12So listen, but listen to how human behavior is. He's my soul brother. So I'm working with him and I put, we put in like an auto key, a hot key that every time he wrote, like, I think it was yes, yep, okay. It automatically put thumbs up. And when I was back six weeks later, people were like, he's so different. And it's just because of a little stupid thumbs up. Like that's the little things they make, they make a big impact for people. I hear you. So it's sometimes important to sort of do it. And that's the aspect of being dynamic. Thank you. Yeah. Tell me you're not a trained podcast professional.

1:05:46Where you end where we began. The callback! Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for watching and listening to The Jasmine Starr Show. I hope that you liked this podcast half as much as I did. You can find Blake at Blake underscore Eastman on Instagram. Please tag him, send him a DM. Just get to know him. He is a powerful human being. And there's so many like courses and seminars and all of these other things. How do people go deeper with you outside of Instagram? They want to know more about you. Where'd they go? My newsletter, nonverbalgroup.com slash newsletter. Every Monday. Nonverbalgroup.com forward slash newsletter.

1:06:21We'll also link it in the show notes. Thank you for watching and listening to the Jasmine Starr Show. And thank you for having me. Thank you for getting to us.