Patience, Uncertainty, and Dish Washing: How Jonni Cheatwood Became a Renowned Artist and Built a Business Along the Way

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0:38Welcome to the Jasmine Starr Show, a place where we get to talk about life, business, and today, a heavy emphasis on creativity. I am joined yet again by my guest co-host, Marcus Murphy, who's feeling a little inferior at this moment because sitting next to his two people at the table today. It's Jasmine Starr and Johnny Cheatwood. And with those names, Marcus Murphy just sounds like Wonder Bread. You know, it's like, this is like Marcus. Marcus Mayo Murphy. Mayo. It better be olive oil mayo. This guy's living in California two weeks and he's talking about olive oil mayo. I'm a vegan now. Are you a vegan now?

1:15I just started a little bit. Like I said, two weeks in California and now he's a vegan. Yeah, look at this. Marcus Vegan Murphy. Oh, you would know. You would know. Ladies and gentlemen, Johnny Cheatwood is an artist. And I'm not going to say anything beyond more than that because we're going to get into the story. But the reason why I was very intrigued, like I had mentioned before, Marcus had a list of names. And we were trying to curate the right people, the right mix, and serve really well. And so when I saw like a thoroughbred of an artist, I was like, okay, let's talk here. except for the fact that I'm not here to talk about what it is to be an artist.

1:53I really want to focus on the origin story, the monetization, having a career that is driven by art. So few people do that. It is intriguing to see and on such a scale. And so Johnny Cheewood, welcome to the Jasmine Star Show. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. I'm very, very, very honored. Marcus? I'm so happy. You have no idea. Here's the thing. Johnny and I are friends, which is nice. and I've had a front row seat to this entire journey before Johnny Cheatwood was Johnny Cheatwood. But also at the same time, I'm a fan. Like I'm a massive fan. And people will see in the B-roll your amazing work, but I'm a fan just of understanding how crazy the process is and being able to watch it from the beginning to the end and watching your art evolve over the years to what it is today.

2:36Yes, this conversation is going to be amazing and all those things, but also just huge fan. Yeah. Thank you. And I knew his, I was going to say fandom, but it's more like fanboy. I knew of his fanboy tendencies. Because what he was posting on social. That's not brutal. I feel like, come here, come be a co-host because I'm going to kick you down the road. I'm going to kick you into success. Just making fun of your name. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. No, no, no, no. It's like, I know it's as distorted as it is. If I make fun of you, it means I really like you. It's jacked up. I'm already saving for my daughter's therapy.

3:09But Johnny, Johnny. Hi. When Marcus started posting a lot of your work, I think you went to one of his shows. Yeah, we were in London. Yeah, we went to that one. Because that was right on the tail end of BLM and all those things. And I was blown away by that specific show in London. Bards? Bards? Beers. Beers, London. Yeah. And so that's when I was first exposed to your work. And so the fact that you're sitting in the living room, thank you. I appreciate you being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. Okay, so let's start with the origin story. Let's set the story. And I know that there could be a perspective where people see you now and maybe do light digging and kind of see like a lot of the origin on the outside but if we go back a little bit deeper like how did you get here I have no idea to be honest I mean I I mean I grew up in a in a home that was filled with art like my dad was in music you know we had records playing all the time my mom did interior design I played sports my whole life but also kind of like the kid that was on the team that was a little bit weird you know like I was kind of like you know I was going to art museums and like doing that whole thing.

4:09And like, so I was exposed to art early on. Where are you from? I'm actually from Thousand Oaks. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But I kind of moved around all over Ventura County. So very like transient childhood. Graduated high school from Westlake and Westlake Village. And then I moved to Arizona. So in high school, did you hang out with the art kids? Like what was your vibe? I was a, I was an athlete. So I was playing football, basketball, I played volleyball for a year. And then I actually went to college to play basketball. What school? Northern Arizona. Okay. Didn't work out. Oh, yeah. Did not work out at all.

4:41It was Flag, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But why didn't it work out? It was something that I think my dad wanted me to do. But, like, I was never really into sports like that. I just, like, wanted to hang out with my friends. And also, it was the only thing I was kind of good at at the time. So, like, it was something like, yeah, I'll just go to college and sit on the bench for four years and go play pro in Mexico or something. You know, that type of thing. That was kind of, like, my trajectory. three. So can we stop there for a sec when you say, I think maybe my dad wanted to do it. Was it something that he explicitly said, or is it just like a son?

5:13This is what we do. I mean, it was just kind of like, what else am I going to do? You know? So it was kind of like everything that I'd done until that point was for me to go play basketball, you know, that type of thing. So like, you know, I played a ball growing up. I did that whole thing, but I took like a couple of art classes in high school and you know, it was like nothing. It was just kind of something like oh i can kind of draw you know and i just needed the ap credit so okay yeah it's crazy so this is where i want everybody to understand it's like yes basketball all that stuff but where you are now these big international shows like if you just start going backwards from that to a guy who's like well i kind of took some art one time and i could kind of draw sure that blows my mind yeah yeah well there's that part of it but you know once art became my interest that became my passion, which eventually became my career, there's so much that goes into what I'm doing now to get me to like the next level, that type of thing.

6:10So it's not just like, oh, I just kind of took art, you know, that then it was, you know, that's all I can do. You know, like I just didn't know what I wanted to do. But now it's like, no, like I'm dedicating like my whole life to this. And, you know, just because like I've seen what, where it's taken me so far and I see where hopefully it can take me in the future. Yeah. um so yeah i mean it's so few people in art in general that make it at all like yeah i mean so yeah i want to know like some of the things that were maybe early leading indicators because look you're a successful person whether you pick up a paintbrush or not or basketball yeah or any of that right so there is probably some actual makeup and some ways that you think and the way that you view the world that i'm very interested in in terms of that because the other thing i want to say it's kind of a two-parter is where I met you, we were both like struggling, right?

7:02How did you guys meet? Yeah. So we met a long time ago through a mutual friend, but it was really funny because we might as well have been living like on the couch somewhere. I was living on the couch. And I laughed because at that point in that moment, did you still know you were Johnny Cheatwood? And what I mean by that question is Johnny Cheatwood now, the guy that I met, we were struggling, whatever. Was there something inside of you that was like, yeah but i i know that there's something else here you know what i don't i think so but i never knew it so i think there's something in me that was just like i'm gonna make something of myself i don't know what that is yet i went to film school for a bit and i just hated it you know like yeah um so i ended up dropping out so like i'm just gonna be a teacher and then i hated that so like i just dropped out of school completely started working in restaurants full time that whole thing wait wait wait see so this is like i'm like i'm like uh i need to know the story i've lived a lot of lives yeah so you're in flagstaff and i'm feeling it back a little bit sorry marcus you're in flagstaff yeah you just think you're gonna ride the bench for four years and then go play in mexico sure okay yeah you're ideally yeah you were kind of like open right you're just like very fluid at this point i'm very go with the flow okay yeah cool always have been and so then you said a year into it, you knew it just wasn't for you.

8:18Yeah. I mean, it was, I got kicked off the team basically because of grades and just like, I never really applied myself to anything. Okay. And I just didn't want to, you know, like there's nothing there for me, you know? So then you leave Arizona and you go back to Ventura County. Uh, no, I actually moved to Phoenix. Okay. That's where we met. That's where we met. Yeah. So my Phoenix days way back. I feel like everybody had to go through the desert to find the water. You know what I'm saying? Okay. But it was, it was, it was, you can't use that. But it is, it is true though, that I feel like we met at a desert season of life and it was cool because you know, when you like meet other people and you kind of feel that it's like this kindredness that you have, I think that's when I was like, okay, cool.

9:05This guy, isn't the guy that's like going to quit all this stuff. he was finding what he liked and that's how I think you're a journeyman is how I felt when I was when I first met you I mean it's cool that I give off the energy because I mean I totally am you know and a lot of my life has kind of been what actually works for me like I felt like I had to try so many different things to figure out like does this serve me is this going to take me anywhere is this not going to work I don't like that right away so I'm just not you know that type of thing and i've always kind of had this like i guess like a deep desire to like understand myself and also like understand like who i want to be if that makes sense you know you're talking to people who literally that has what we do yeah yeah um can i stop for a second so i wonder though when you had said i'm asking myself does it serve me yeah i'm letting go of what doesn't serve me.

10:00And like, to me, all I hear is like, that feels very courageous. There's a lot of people who stay in situations that's not serving them. So is this an innate quality? How did you sharpen it? Like somebody's listening and saying, listen, like Johnny, I know I'm not going to apply myself to grades or to being a teacher. Walk us through what your brain does that somebody else might apply it. I wish I can articulate like what my brain actually, you know, I think being an artist or like any type of creative where exactly it comes from or like what that moment is but there's this like leap of faith that you have to take because there's so much unknown you know especially like Marcus you said earlier like so few people make it as an artist you know and it's true I mean there's there's a lot of artists you know but like to have a career as an artist I don't understand the art world and that's okay but like I know that what I'm doing is what I need to be doing because it's all I want to do it's all I want to do yeah but it's like the only thing like I'm passionate about and it's like the only thing that I've ever like seen through in my life you know because like you'll try so many things and yeah kind of like what i'm saying is like what serves me so like you start so many different ideas or these like business plans or these like you know relationships or whatever and like things just fizzle out you know and some things just don't work and being an artist is the only thing that really like i've ever worked hard at and it's the only thing that actually just that's the only thing i like i'm passionate about, I guess, you know, there's something on the pack there though.

11:28Yeah. No, that's in a good way. I'm saying that if you're a listener right now and you're thinking about this as a business owner and as a creative, you deal with two things. One, you can get a reputation as somebody who just starts things and doesn't finish them, which is interesting, right? I want to talk about moving away from that identity a little bit, but in that reputation, but also like dealing with failure. And I want to ask it because I bet you in your brain, you don't look at those things as failures. Am I okay to say that? Or do you think you You saw them as like, this didn't work.

11:55I think, yeah, I do. I mean, I see them as this just didn't work. And now I have that gained experience and I gained knowledge. And now I know what doesn't serve me, you know, and just being okay with that and just moving forward and kind of figuring out like, where is my place? And, you know, in this ecosystem of the art world or, you know, it applies so hard to me because I'm a person who really cares a lot about what other people think. and so what I think I'm trying to get at is you're very unique in that way I've never actually seen you care a lot about what people think and I know you're on social I know a lot of people like all you and stuff but tell me about your mindset around that because I think sometimes that can be really crippling and it's really interesting sorry yeah but it's really interesting for me because I am someone that I don't generally care I mean like I think because I'm human like you know I want to like be recognized for the work I do and all that stuff but like and also like you know there's the art markets and there's like strategy that has to like go into making this career actually work for you because like the art world's wild you know um but I care but I don't care and it's always like this like you know tug of war that I'm always having with myself because it's like I need to just like care about the work and like all I want to do is just make the work and just make it be about the work and not care about other people's input in like what I'm doing.

13:19But at the same time, like I have to figure out how to care about certain things because it's my career. And like, you know, being an artist is more or less like my identity at this point, just because like I'm actually putting myself on canvas and all that stuff. Okay, so we're here and art is your identity. And then there's somebody who's listening and they believe it's their identity, but they haven't like embraced it. So if we go back to the guy who moved to Phoenix and realize that teaching, it wasn't a failure. It was, oh, a life lesson learned. It was a learned experience and it wasn't for you.

13:52And then you went into waiting tables. Yeah. So I, at this point, I moved back to Phoenix in what, 2006? And I was going to school for like two years. I was at Arizona State, hating everything, but having a good time. And I just dropped out of school. Like I couldn't afford it anymore. So I started working in restaurants and, you know, if you work in restaurants, you have like double shifts and all that stuff. And I'm just like, just tired, just like spent, you know, all that stuff. And I kind of got to a point where I wasn't painting at this point. Like, you know, I wasn't even really into art like that, you know, but I got to a point where I was like, I just need something.

14:30I need like an outlet. I like looking back at it now, I'm kind of like, wow, like I knew back then I needed an outlet, you know? So I feel like most people don't realize that. but like there's like some I don't know what it was um that's great yeah yeah yeah I guess but um but like go back you need an outlet and then what do you do you go to Michael's you go to Home Depot like where do you where does one begin it's actually really funny so like I didn't I never like out really said like oh I want to paint you know it was just kind of something that I was kind of interested in like I would see like um the shepherd fairy like obey and like all that stuff like the street art I was like oh that's kind of cool and then um I was like I just kind I want to learn how to paint.

15:10So, um, I came home back to California, uh, for like a Christmas break. And my sister was friends with the guy who worked at this like art supply store. And she just got like, I think she had like taken them from the store, but she had like, like it's like really good, like, you know, golden paint, like stuff I use now. And like, all these like brushes and all this stuff. And I was like, I'm taking these back to Arizona. So I literally just took them from my sister and then took them back to Arizona and just started painting. Do I understand it? Like you started painting with like quality stuff at the beginning.

15:41Like, yeah, we talk about gold paint. I mean, yeah, you know, so, so, you know, I had, I had good quality stuff from the jump. So, um, but yeah, so I brought that stuff back with me and I started painting and I, what did you paint on campus, paper, walls, um, canvas, like there was, I would like go in the alleys and like find like old chairs and like kind of like you know sand them and like paint the little seats on the chairs and paint like desk I would find and yes anything I could and so you're doing this like before in the middle after double shifts like this is how you are like yeah I mean you know my days off like I would just paint or like I would get home early or not early but like get home in like midnight and just like stay up to like four and just it It was a surprise to us.

16:28Like as a friend group, it was like, oh, Johnny paints now. Johnny paints now. But not just like Johnny's painting stuff. Like, no, Johnny is a painter now. Because it was like, yo, Johnny was a barista yesterday, right? And making us our hot toddies and stuff. And now it's like crazy because I remember the first one that caught my eye was that you did a dripping technique. And what's interesting to me is like I thought about it as art because of the finished product. You thought about it as art as a process. And I think that that's interesting because it's evolved over time. And when I look at your work and when I watch like this kind of evolution, some part of me kind of still is baffled by it because it just felt so abrupt.

17:05And by the way, this wasn't 20 years of like your whatever. This has been a rapid journey, like a really quick start. When did you steal the paint from your sister? What year is this? I think we got that wrong. 2008, 2009, somewhere in there. Okay. And then Johnny the barista turns into Johnny the painter. And then like at what point do people actually – When does somebody pay you for your painting? Yeah. A friend of mine, Ethan, I was like painting in my front yard in like my apartment. And he's like, hey, are you done with that? I was like, no. He's like, well, I want to buy it. And I was like, okay, cool.

17:39You know, I don't know. You know, whatever. Yeah. And he's like, how much is your rent? And I was like, 150 bucks. He's like, I'll pay your rent. So I was like, okay, cool. You know, that's everything. Wow. But also how crazy my rent was 150 bucks. Okay. That's the thing that points out from the story. Yeah, no, no. We got way more of that, yeah. Okay, so Ethan, is he somebody, he lives in the apartment complex? He was just like a part of like the friend group, you know? Okay. And so then did he take the unfinished piece? Yeah. Or did you, he took the unfinished piece? I think he still has it too, yeah.

18:08Dang, somebody came up. I was going to say, that's a good get right there. I mean, it was, it's not the best painting. But it was fun though because like, you know, I got so engulfed by like the idea of like painting. It was like fascinating. It was like the only thing that I cared about. And like, it's the only thing I like wanted to like figure out and like wanted to, you know, that type of thing. Okay. I'm sorry. I keep on going back. I just, I'm a storyteller and I'm like, I'm seeing you. I'm also very nonlinear. So I'm picturing you outside of your apartment complex and Ethan says, I'll pay your rent.

18:47And at that point, are you like, Oh, that's my homie doing me a solid. Like, I'm sure he likes it. Or is it like, oh, like my work can be bought and sold? I think I took it as he did a meet solid. You know, like that sort of thing. So 2008, you take it. When does Ethan buy the piece? Somewhere around like 2008, 2009. So you've been painting like, I don't know, nine to 12 months somewhere. Kind of, yeah. And then your first sale then. And then after that, how long until the next sale? I don't think a long time because I think it was more or less like my friends just kind of being like, hey i have a chair will you paint it i was like yeah so i wasn't like really wanting to make money out of it it was just kind of like a mentally i needed to do this you know man so did you hear i didn't want to make money and both of us were like but but the second part of that is where i really was exhaling because it's funny that you did something that you really cared about and the money followed like you did something that you were just passionate about yeah and again i get it i want to get into the marketing behind this and the whole like there's a game to this whole thing that I really want you to unpack for this but I do think that it's like wow I would have just painted a paint and just done chairs and done my thing and then there is a bridge gap between that Johnny and this one but I like the idea of there is a big mental shift there being like wow I'm just gonna do something and dedicate myself to it I mean I didn't know that being a painter was a career you know unless you're like you know a Picasso or like you know the name like I didn't go to art school so like I only knew like the Warhol Basquiat Picasso because like that's who everyone knows, you know, that type of thing.

20:18Yeah. But like, I didn't think that I would ever get to the caliber of like being in a gallery or that type of thing. It was just kind of something I was just like, I just want to do this on the side, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So then from the outdoor paintings, like what's the next big jump? Like when do you leave next big jump? Um, what was it? Somebody had to start. No. So I think what was really cool is I lived in this kind of like big community with like friends that kind of understood that like I was becoming this artist type of thing you know I don't know and I was painting in my living room and I was living in this like the 150 apartment was like four other guys living in that two-bedroom apartment you know that type of thing and I was just like in this corner just like kind of painting and like spray painting like on the door like the closet doors and stuff like that and it was fine like Like, it was fun, you know?

21:13And it was, like, everyone just, like, kind of came in, and we all hung out, and it was fun, you know? But, yeah, we had another friend group who lived in a house with a garage behind us. So I'm like, hey, can I use your garage? They're like, yeah, of course. That was, like, my first, like, little, like, makeshift studio. And it was cool because, like, friends, like, really supported me, I guess, you know, without, like, saying that they're, like, we support everything you do. It was just, like, no, like, we have a space. Like, come and use it, you know? It's a community to have. Yeah, yeah. And then like redemption gave me a space at their campus and stuff like that.

21:46So I'm like, people were like coming alongside of me this whole time to support, to support me, even though like, I didn't know what I was doing. You know, it's just something that like, yeah, like we have space. Dude, we knew what you were doing before you were doing it. That's kind of the cool part. It's like, I feel like I got behind your work maybe before you did, which is an interesting thing to say out loud, but these people obviously saw something in you. And I think that's really, there's two things here that I hope are big takeaways. One is you put yourself into a place where people could insert themselves into that story publicly.

22:16Publicly. I feel like that's a big thing. And then you had a community, which I think that people, you know, if you have a big vision, it actually takes more people the bigger it is. Yeah. And so I feel like this guy here that's standing here probably has a bunch of people behind him. I mean, not to fast forward to what we'll probably get to, but I mean, though painting, it's like a very like individual thing. I work with so many people that have so many people on their teams and not so many people but like you know every I work with like four galleries across the world now um maybe five anyways and they have their own network and all that stuff so like I'm kind of like being inserted in like all these like different places and it's a big support system you know and even though like it I'm in a room 10 12 15 hours a day sometimes by myself just painting there's so many people people on the outside and that's a cool thing you know but to go back to yeah being in college um or dropping out of college yeah I just had a lot of people around me that just were really cool and supportive and like no one was like oh that sucks or because it did suck you know but you know but like no one was like you should stop painting and I think that's why I kept going or like why like I kept like pursuing painting because like no one told me to stop and like also I think that I have like a lot of like I guess like insecurity about like how I'm being perceived kind of like what you're saying earlier but like I think that if someone's just like this is really can I cuss on here yeah okay come as you are this is really like you you know I would be like oh man like I'm terrible like I suck you know it's like it was down downward spiral like me maybe being an athlete and kind of being like oh I do suck you know that type of thing so because that never really happen until I became a full-time artist.

24:05I was like, no, I'm going to keep doing this. And it's fun. And, you know, like I still work at Cartel. And like I still, I was actually working. Coffee shop. But I was also working, remember like Fox restaurant concept? Yeah, yeah. So I'd also was working at one of his restaurants. And so I was like two jobs, just got married, painting on the side when I could, that type of thing. Yep. So anyways. I just want to pause and I want to distill a couple of things. there's people who are listening and we immediately want to do is we want to put ourselves in a good story and so I want to make this story accessible because what I heard was three things letting go what isn't serving us using it as a lesson and not a failure number two painting in public to me I don't know what that is because I don't know how else to identify the power that it is because when I started my career I get a lot of photographers asking but how do I build my business.

24:58And my knee jerk response was I got business when I was out in public with my camera. Yeah. And so it's like, if you are just shooting and you show people the thing that you're doing to the unknowing eye, you're doing something successful. Yeah. And I think naturally, like as an artist, a lot of us are like, just very like quiet, we're reserved, we're insecure. We're kind of, you know, it's really hard to be vulnerable showing your work. Yes. Especially like when you don't even know exactly what you're doing, you know yes and I think like when you go to a place like art school for example like you have critiques there's always people like with eyes on your work you know yeah I didn't have that I just had friends that are like not necessarily like artistic yeah you know but they're like this is kind of cool you know so like I kind of took it to rent but I think because I did it in a public way like you're saying it was really easy for me to kind of like show the work that's right world you know the process yeah and just like what's the worst someone can say is like no like it's fine i think the third thing that i heard was having a community but doing whatever it took to continue doing the thing and so i heard community around you but then you're like i also did all this other stuff like it wasn't like i immediately needed to monetize this thing that i'm trying to build it was i need to create and then get people around that yeah i mean i didn't even know what i was trying to create at that point it was just i just need this you know like i just need can i cast you a question that i think is going to be and i just very curious so artists like you look at a blank canvas for example where do you know to start like and i think this is an interesting thing for people like i get sometimes overwhelmed by yes this big open space and i think that there's so many opportunities for all of us yes if you're looking at a canvas I know this is such a deep question.

26:47No, I know. But I would love to know that because like there's a lot of transitional things for people to understand. Yeah. I mean, for me, in the way that I paint, because like I came from a very abstract background, I guess. You know, like everything I was doing up until that show in London was abstract, you know. So it's all about like intuition. So like you kind of have to like start somewhere and then make a move, adapt. you know it's you're putting more or less you're kind of like figuring out this puzzle that's that doesn't exist you know um and it's it's a tricky thing but also it's really cool though because like if you put in the work to do it you're kind of like i can chip away at this and it doesn't look like anything now it kind of sucks now it's nothing i suck i'm a failure but then like you kind of like keep keep working at it you're literally telling oh this is kind of Say it again.

27:41Say it again. No, but seriously, though, this is literally such a great metaphor for it. And I think a lot of times, too, like, people, they'll be like, oh, you're just an artist. Like, all you do is paint and all that stuff. And I'm like, no. I spend all my time preparing to paint, you know? So it's like. Okay, we can talk about that. Yeah, we'll get there. Yeah. But, like, it's not, like, a linear thing. It's like you're kind of, like, peaks and valleys and, like, running errands and doing emails. What is prepare to paint? Preparing to paint. So like basically like how I'm working now is I'm working on figurative work.

28:14So like I'm trying to like tell more of stories. And also all my canvases are like sewn together using like different textiles and stuff. So I'm spending a lot of my time just like sewing or trying to figure out what I'm going to paint. Because like now I have to make like a good composition, that type of thing. Or make a composition that like works for me or like what I'm trying to, you know, with these figures. and like trying to figure out like how to make the fabrics look like you know the interior scenes that like i'm trying to do like if you look at my work it's easier to explain but and then also just like prepping the canvases to work washing the brushes going to supply store just doing like all the busy work and that's like what i mean by preparing to is that helpful because it's funny if i'm stumped i go cut the grass and i mean i i just go sit down yeah really oh really you just go sit there yeah oh no that would drive me crazy hell no well i mean because like for me now is like i can overwork something and i will just be like oh like i'm gonna work at it work at it work at it until it's like good enough i guess but like sometimes taking a step back is so much better and like i think i just learned that like kind of like the last like year or two of making this like figurative work so i'm kind of like wait i don't actually know what i'm doing right now so I'm not going to keep working at something.

29:32This is the whole word. I just feel like this is like, I'm about to stand up with like a hanky because it was like a sweat hanky at church. Come on. That's right. That's right. Amen. Fanning myself. Had a conversation with my husband and business partner and what he said was, I think you need to take a break. And I was like, no, no. It feels unsafe. Like I'm like, be alone with my feelings. Like take some time to sew my canvas, like proverbial canvas like dude that takes a level of swag or confidence like well it's also trial and error i mean so many years i spent like not taking a break you know that type of thing so it's i'm a workhorse like i love working it's what i do like i love just being in my studio like you know but you kind of get to the point where kind of like i need to like take a step back you know that type of thing and just to gain perspective yeah just and like it can literally be like just to step back just to like, you know, 10 seconds just to actually look at the painting.

30:31You know, that's everything. Cause like most of the time I'm like, you know, nose to the painting, just trying to, you know, figure it out. But I'm like, wait, I don't even know what this actually looks like. I was wondering if you got lost in it sometimes. Yeah. Just kind of like, wait a minute. I forget what I was doing. It's like blackout and you're like, you know, five hours later, you're like, huh? But, um, yeah, I mean, just, I just go sit down. Okay, so what's the turning point? I feel like I have a really good sense of like an origin story. And I'm sure there's a ton of peaks and valleys in the middle.

31:01Sure. Did you have a moment where you were like, oh, like this is a career? Like this is a business? Yeah.

31:10Um, yes. Yes. I mean, just to jump around to like my life story, I guess. I moved back to Flagstaff in like 2011. 11 and like fully like you know understanding like i want to be an artist you know that type of thing but um we have a mutual friend marcus and i have a mutual friend who invited me to like move back up there to like kind of start this like art program after school i don't know what it was but um at the time it was just like i don't have like a career lined up i don't have i try to get a job at yelp yeah first of all he did he did try to get a job yeah i went to two interviews and i I was just like, this is not for me.

31:49What was the role? I think sales. Something, something like it. It was like, you know, because like. Bless your heart. Yeah. I wouldn't, bro. You call on people and be like, hey, I'd like to talk to you about your ads. No, it's so funny, though, because like you guys would always come into the cartel. Yeah, all the time. And so like the, I forget his name now, but like the manager. Yeah, Ryan Rawlins. Yeah, him. Shout out Ryan Rawlins. He interviewed me twice, I think. and like I felt like I kind of like knew him like you know we're kind of like buddy buddy because we always like see each other and like in the interview like I think I said like what did he say he's like why do you think you'd be a good role or a good fit here and I was like look man like I just don't suck like I said that like what an answer it's like all right man I'll call you and then like you know like another girl called me she's like hey like you know just confirm your interview da da da da like positions like 30 grand a year is that okay and I was like hell yeah You know, that's because like I didn't have money at the time.