The Science of Belonging (And Why It Can Grow Your Business) with Jon Levy

25:48But that's your super skills. That will not work for your listeners. Gosh, that's oh good. Okay, so spill it. What works? What works? Because I need it. I need this, John. So here's what works. When we understand their social pressures, we can actually get past them. Because when I understand what is bombarding you, then I can understand then what might appeal to you, what might get you out of that recluse experience. And so what we need to understand is that there's generally about four things that, and this is generalities, right? Are there always exceptions? Yeah. You could say, oh, John, I tried it and it didn't work.

26:26Yeah, on that one person. But if you do it for 10 ,000, it'll work for 9 ,000 of it. Yeah. Go. Okay. So the most influential people in our culture have experienced it all. Nobody needs another casino-themed fundraiser to attend or like a rubber chicken dinner, right? Like, no, that's interesting. And there's a section of the brain called the SNVTA. I'm not going to get into details about what that stands for because it just sounds science-y and intimidating, but it's the major novelty center of the brain. So when you're exposed to something new or novel, then it actually causes your brain to react and trigger the memory sections.

27:04So it causes you to want to explore and understand because when you're exposed to something that stands out as different, you go, wait, what now? And then your brain says, oh, this is different. I need to remember this. And so everything becomes more memorable, not just the one thing that's novel. You're just now in a memory state. And so whatever you do, it needs to be fundamentally different than what everybody else is doing. And the problem is that you hear advice on podcasts and you say, oh, that person's successful, I'll do what they did. The problem is that that worked for their skill set at a specific time in history.

27:47It won't work for everyone else. And trying to copy, if I tried to copy your skill set, I would fall on my face because I am not doing, you know, 30 hours of research on like, it's just not, that's not where my skills land. And your listeners say, wow, that's so cool. And they'll try it once and they'll be like, oh my god i can't do this i don't know why she does it and you're like i'm loving it i want more of it and they're like oh never again right so what does it mean to do something novel my dinners they have a novel design right so i'll give you the other characteristics and then we can talk about how to apply it the other characteristics are generosity since everybody wants something from them i want to give them something greater than what they expect like not a gift like a physical gift, but an experience or an interaction.

28:38You have to walk out with more value than you were expecting to. And in an ideal scenario, you shouldn't feel like I'm there just to transact. There's nothing wrong with transactional relationships, right? I go to the pharmacy and I buy something. I get it. I'm very happy. I just am not going to have a long-term, you know, deep relationship with every employee there. That's not realistic. so the key there is that the context is that i want to make sure you are getting real value right it's not you're coming so i can just sell you something there's nothing wrong with wanting to sell people something it's just where is the focus is it benevolent is it on you or is it on me purely for my own gain when people feel that something is for their benefit then their defenses go down.

29:27And I can explain a little why later. The third characteristic is curation. The most influential people in the world, do you know who they spend their time with? People they trust? Hopefully. Maybe, maybe not. That's right. I don't know. Their admins, their staff, and occasionally maybe their family, depending on their work hours. You said it yourself, you're a recluse. Everybody thinks that influential people spend all their time with other influential people. That's not the case. Maybe like 3%. What does that mean? What's 3 % of the time? It means like every few weeks, they'll go to an event and there'll be some fancy people there.

30:05They'll go to dinner with somebody, but you know, they have families, they have work obligations, they're on flights. It's mostly their staff. And so if you can curate an environment with very influential people, they go out of their way for that. You know, Davos, this thing that happens in Europe every year with world leaders. It's in like some super small, ultra snowy town in the cold. But the leaders of every major company in the world go there because that's where the leaders of the major companies in the world go. It's well curated. Would it be more convenient to go locally? Sure. But they will spend a fortune and travel very far to be in the right circles.

30:45So this means that if you can curate a group of people that are interesting, you do something novel with them, ideally something that requires effort, that Ikea effect that we talked about, right? And you do it in a generous context, you have a real chance of getting people together and connecting with them. It doesn't need to be huge. It could be four people, Five people just having a conversation. It could be going on a hike. So tell me, what's something you love? And also, hopefully, your listeners will ask themselves this. What's something you already really enjoy doing? This is probably a bad example, but I love reading.

31:23Okay. So that's not a bad example. Why is that a bad example? Because it's a solitary exercise. Who says? I suppose just my prevailing belief. So you're telling me there aren't other influential people who enjoy reading? No, I would just assume that you were going to go to, I see, this is what I did. I jumped ahead. I assumed that if I like to go on a hike, well, who can I aggregate to go on a hike? And so then because I said I like to reading, I'm like, do I plan a readathon with other influential people? So there are reading groups where people read for a half hour, an hour, and then they talk for an hour.

31:56And you can bring together a group of friends and say, hey, let's do a reading group. Let's read this book. It's supposed to be fantastic. let's we'll sit in silence we'll have some tea and stuff like that and if you've already read it great then just come for the second hour and we can talk about it talk about how to apply the ideas how we could impact each other's lives oh my god that is um something i never i never thought of and again here again you just see you see things from a very different perspective but notice people say oh it'll cost i don't have the money to impress these people when i started I had a I think it cost$130 for groceries to host 12 13 people for dinner maybe even less back then because eggs weren't as inflated and right maybe it was like a it was 15 years ago so let's say it was a hundred bucks I actually didn't have the money I charged it to my credit card just knowing that like if I keep doing this then it'll work out somehow right and if it didn't at least I really enjoyed myself because a hundred bucks is easily what I'd spend going out for drinks in a night in New York.

33:06And I was doing something that was much more nourishing for my wellbeing, right? Just quality time with people. And so you could do a board games night. You could do a reading club. You could do a hiking club. You could do whatever you want. I've a dinner alum who's a major person in the art world and said, you know, after, and I have to emphasize, you want to do something that's different than already exists. You can't just copy Ted talks and expect people to care. Right. Because then it's the watered down third rate version of Ted talks and nobody wants to be the person giving a third rate version of a Ted talk.

33:41Right. So you can't copy somebody else's format. You have to do your own thing. And so this guy, Glenn, who's just a fantastic human being said, what we're going to do is we're going to open up an application for people to attend a dinner. We'll cover all the costs. It'll be limited to 18 people, one table, or maybe it was 16 people, one table. And anybody who loves art can apply to attend. You could be 19 years old with no experience, or you could be Damien Hirst, and we will review and have like a diverse group in terms of their backgrounds, experience, all that. And that's who we'll accept.

34:16And I'll just pay for it. And he said, we did it. It was fantastic. We now have our third one coming up. we love it and it's just that little effort of having to apply put in that ikea effect so people cared more it took two minutes maybe even their admin did it who knows but just the fact that there's a barrier thereby makes it feel more cohesive so when we were at the dinner table going back to the dinner series and for people who are watching and listening along it's really important that I want to use the dinner series as a thread because when I talk about a personal example, it really changes the dynamic and the perspective because there's always three perspectives, your perspective of the dinner, my perspective of the dinner, and the people on the outside watching their perspective.

35:02I'd also argue that you probably have multiple perspectives on it. There were like, because can I touch a topic that's going to be a little weird for people. The weirder, the better. So have you ever heard the phrase, oh, that would be inauthentic or it's authentic? Yes. Yes. It turns out that doesn't actually mean anything. And the reason is, is that the idea of authenticity came from kind of like West Coast gurus who tried to bring this like unified concept of self. So like there's one true self and when you act consistent with it, then you are true to yourself and you're authentic. When you act inconsistent with it, then it's not that you acting, it's negative influences from the outside.

35:54So you'll hear people saying, I'm so sorry, that wasn't the true me. I would never do that. The true me would never do that. The problem is that it's not how the brain works. So the brain has tons of areas that all have kind of specialties, depending on how hungry you are, time of day, if somebody just bumped into you on the street, different areas take over. And sometimes you are the delightful human being you are. And sometimes you put me on the phone with customer service and they're annoying. I become a terrible human being, like just awful. I'm embarrassed for how terrible of a human being I turn into.

36:30All of that is me. I might not like parts of it, but it is literally sections of my brain. There is no unified self. We haven't found one. There's no evidence that there is a unified self anywhere. It is sections of the brain that might get triggered and you get scared. And so you get defensive or others that are feeling very pro-social that are have taken over because you're well fed and you have all the calories you need. And because of that, then there isn't like a pure, simple, this is how I actually feel about something. will often have warring perspectives on things. In fact, the closest we can find to an authentic self was a really funny study.

37:11A group of people were sat around a table. They all had a conversation. And then let's say we were two of the people at the table. We would all rate ourselves and each other on our level of authenticity. And here's what's interesting. My number for myself would not match the numbers given by other people. Great. Maybe that's true. Maybe I'm less authentic than I thought I was. But none of their numbers matched each other either. There was no unified number, like, at all. And what that suggests is that the perspective of authenticity sits in the viewer, not in the individual. Meaning there isn't a me being authentic or not.

37:51It is, do you view me as authentic? and what defines that is if i fit the narrative that you have for me so if i fit the narrative you go oh that was authentic i'll give you a simple example when apple advertises privacy we're apple we're privacy do you say yeah that makes sense yes yeah because they pissed off every company out there by increasing privacy So you'd say, oh, that's authentic. That's true to Apple. When Pepsi had Kylie Jenner solve the Black Lives Matter movement in an ad, people said this ad made me stupider because it has nothing to do with our narrative of either Kylie Jenner or Pepsi.

38:35right and so when something doesn't fit our narrative we say it's inauthentic and so if somebody meets you and they go well that's not you know internally they might not be even acknowledging it but that doesn't fit my perspective of how a woman of color living in the u.s lives so like that but that has nothing to do with you as an individual and so when we talk about having a perspective we probably have multiple perspectives on stuff There isn't like some unified thing up there. And the tie that is binding this in a much deeper way is when we were sitting at the table, we had the table go around and guess what we did.

39:17And this goes back to the narrative that we are construing on our own based on very limited information. And one of the things that you had said during that introduction area was after everybody went around, you had to introduce yourself. but we had a discussion around what is humble or modesty and you had said i want you to introduce yourself in a way that would make my jewish grandmother proud yeah like what are we going to say here that we don't want anybody to perceive that we're into ourselves or we're very egotistical but do it for my grandma essentially so i actually never gave you the opportunity on this show to give a grand a jewish grandmother worthy intro of what it is you do that's because my intro was thrown off john you know it's also my fault because i started off but you did it we'll You might look back to it.

40:01So you want me to give a Jewish grandmother... Introduction of yourself. So that you can actually be... I want you to brag in such a way that she would just say something in Yiddish and kiss you on both sides of the cheek and say... My grandmother would have spoken Yiddish. She spoke eight languages, but not Yiddish. Oh, wow. Okay. Or seven, whatever it was. One of her seven languages. So my name is John Levy. I'm a behavioral scientist. I frankly don't get to do much research but the most famous study I did was uh the largest study in history on dating which was kind of cool so we found out what actually causes people to date and basically the reasons that people want to date somebody is that they remind them of themselves so we're very egotistical it's called implicit egotism uh down to your initials if you have the same initials I have my and when you say that at dinner I have the same initial as my husband Of course you do.

40:52So if you have the same initials, you have a increase of 11.3 % chance that you'll date. I wrote, this is my second book, You're Invited. It was a New York Times Wall Street Journal bestseller, Wall Street Journal's book of the month, Wall Street Journal's select for one of 12 books to read for a smart year. Apparently the journal likes it. It was also USA, like it hit all the lists in short, international bestseller. It's in a whole pile of languages. I don't know. What else would I say? I think, oh yeah, Ted speaker. I think I'm probably one of the highest paid non-celebrity speakers out there.

41:25Meaning that like, you know, there's celebrity authors and celebrities and stuff like that. But I, the reason is that I treat my speaking and I'm very proud of this, the way that an Olympian treats their sport. So I out-prepare, out-think, out-practice, out everything, anyone I know, hands down. And I think all my contemporaries would really agree. And then I have a really extraordinary life because people keep cooking me terrible food. And I'm really proud that I've created this community, but it's by many people's account, the most successful, secret, private, exclusive dining, I don't know what to call it, experience in the world.

42:09And I get a lot of joy from connecting people. So like it's, uh, and if I were to call one out on myself, all of it's probably because I grew up so unpopular. I don't want anybody to feel disconnected or lonely. So can I go back to my notebook? Okay. So one of the things that I did was while I had my notebook before we sat down for dinner, I used the ladies room and I washed my hands and then I immediately started taking notes and I wrote to myself, why is John doing this event? Because in, there's an economic principle that I learned in high school and it's an acronym, TIN-STOFEL. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

42:43And it really shaped, it's like this core thing that I just can't forget. And so the lens in which I view a lot of things, unfortunately, is okay, but what's the angle here? And so I wrote, why is John doing this? And your two words were, because I was lonely and awkward. And I wrote in my notes, John's doing this because he was lonely and awkward. And then I see somebody where I definitely feel lonely and awkward most of the time, but it's self-imposed, I'm sure, as a recluse. And I thought to myself, If this person identified as once was and now is something different, I wonder what it might look like.

43:15And unbeknownst to me, John, I don't know if it's because I wasn't told or I just don't pay that much attention. I didn't know that there was going to be a salon after the dinner. And so there was 12 of us at this table. And then you say, OK, there's a group of a group of people who are coming and there's a salon. And so then everybody's walking in. And the thing about you is everybody's on time, John. Everybody's on time and everybody brings a bottle of something and everybody's there. And I have to say, John, I didn't know what to expect. But the way that I described it, I called JD when I left to drive.

43:43I'm driving home. And I said, it is like the most uber successful, mind blowing, hippie commune style event I have ever been to. Because nobody was there to talk about how impressive they were. Although in all forms of the world, they would be like, I want a Pulitzer. Oh, I am the inventor of Newsies, the Broadway musical. These are playwrights. These are people who changed American. How cool was it? It was a couple, and they actually wrote on Tarzan. I think they wrote the large portions of The Lion King. Yes. Noni. Yeah, Noni. I'm not allowed to say. No, that's fine. I mean, we had it. Noni and Bob.

44:21Noni and Bob. So here is why it was so fascinating. They are, dare I say, a bit older than I am. They come from a very different generation. And while we would think we had nothing in common, Noni and I start talking. And she's saying about how she was recording some of her legacy work. How did they come into becoming co-screenwriters? And Bob is a professor at USC still. And they were talking about documenting what their process was. So years ago, they had recorded some video recordings. She says, you know, there's this platform and they want to sell it as a course and it's going to be a revenue share.

44:52And I said, Noni, say less. This is my world. Like, this is what I do. Let me talk you through the structures. Let me tell you all the things. And then I'm telling her how to import her contract into ChatGPT and ask it questions around. What about her IP? How is it protected? And so she brings Bob in. And so all of that to say this hippie commune of wildly disparate people doing their own things are meeting here. And the whole intention is, well, what are you doing? How can we help? Who can I connect you to? And so I say all of those things because to see somebody who once identified as awkward and lonely and then to do this very thing.

45:29And now I'm just awkward. So somebody's listening and they're going to be going through and they're going to start asking themselves. I want to make sure that I drill down a point that anywhere in the world I can be in Conway, Arkansas, and I might not be a person of influence. But if I really wanted to connect with people in a specific industry, or let's say I want to change local government, that even if I wasn't involved with local government, even if I didn't have a lot of money or resources, that I would be able to aggregate local government officials or. Sure. And simply say, I'm going to host something that's a little atypical, drive a lot of value, be generous, and say that in addition to every person who attends, I will make a local donation to a community event or a community funder.

46:14And if you don't even have the money, then don't. You have to understand, the first thing is to get people's interest. The second is to build trust quickly. How do we build trust quickly? The IKEA effect, right? We find ways to get people to invest effort into our relationship. How do we do that? Jasmine, do you have a favorite book? Oh, very hard to pick, but one comes to mind. Yes. Is it this one? It better be this one. Yeah. After you're invited by John Levy? Yeah, it's The Book Thief. No, fantastic. That's you investing effort into our relationship. I, so researchers had people stopped on the street and asked for really complex directions and they just didn't get them, but they then had people stop on the street and ask for the time.

46:56And once they got the time, they asked for the directions and they got them almost every time. And that's because once I'm seen as worthy of some effort, I'm seen as worthy of more effort. So instead of approaching...

47:35invest effort into me and me back to them. And what we are often scared is that we're interrupting people's lives or we're bothering them or having complexity. Yeah, that's what it is to be human. We love our children because of the inconvenience that they are, not despite it. We have close friends because we've invested effort. And so if I wanted to connect with somebody, I would find a way to get them to invest even a small amount of effort. So what might that be? That might be asking their opinion. Can I ask, you know, I really care about local government. Is there a favorite book that you have on how I can affect it?

48:21So good. Or I really care about having an impact on the community. Who are the three people I should talk to? Right. Then you look them up and say, wow, they're really interesting. Would it be too much of a hassle for you to connect me with two of them, right? Or one of them, or this one. So suddenly they've made a recommendation, small effort, introduction. Now the person that they introduce you to will see it as a warm connection rather than the cold call that you just had on the first person. So suddenly you're much closer to the inner circle, at least one step closer, right? That's so good.

48:56And so if some random person were to email me and say, hey, we're three great podcasters, I put you on the list. and they say, hey, I find like I just binged like five of her episodes. She's fantastic. I have a quick question. Could you connect us? Now, if I send you an email being like, hey, this person wants to connect with you. How much warmer is that of an interview? I mean, tenfold. Yeah. So now you begin to see that very little effort turns into getting closer to the inner circle. now when i'm talking to you and i'm asking your opinion and all that now you're investing effort in the relationship then i can say hey this is really fantastic i'm thinking of gathering a few people from the industry for a games night a potluck of whatever right can i put you on the invite list yeah great so now let's say i do that 20 times i end up with a list of 20 plus people plus the people I knew beforehand.

49:59And then I invite all of them. I'll maybe end up with five people. Great. Five people. We all go on a hike together, talk about the industry. We're all sweating together, putting in effort. Maybe we go to an early morning gym class. Maybe we do yoga and Pilates. Maybe I'm a yoga instructor and I'd lead a yoga class for everybody. Right? It's, I'm doing the things that I'd already care about. What are those things? I'm connecting with the people that matter. And I'm doing activities that I already like. And so it's much simpler. It's the human stuff that matters, right? We try to get it all complicated.

50:36Like I'm going to go on LinkedIn and have a bot and randomly message a thousand people through the bot and alienate them. And they'll wonder why I'm contacting them. And then LinkedIn will block me. So now I have to find, like, no, talk to people. On that note, as we come to a close, one of the things that I said on my ride home from Los Angeles was how you made me so much more conscious of the words that I use. I am a shoot from the hip kind of girl. And I take deep pride in it and I stand by it. I mean what I say. I say what I mean. And not getting into the specifics of the story, the one nuance had a fundamental energetic shift in my whole body that night.

51:19And I said a thing that I often say, And that's like an enemy will stab you in the back. Yeah. And a friend will stab you in the front. And 20 minutes go by. Let's give them a bit of context. I was, I've been working on a new talk on a very contentious topic. Yeah. Right. It's like something that everybody has an opinion on. And if not delivered well, can really have a strong emotional response from people. and I said people asked me about it I said okay I'd be happy to share but please understand this is in like pre-workshopping phases I can share the ideas but I really ask for some grace and I welcome feedback I shared some ideas and you had a very strong opinion and so you said this and I was like okay and and after I had said it the only thing I felt was just it's just regret I felt deep deep regret.

52:17And I kept on, we were cleaning the kitchen. And the only narrative I had in my mind was, why can't you just shut your mouth? Why can you not shut your mouth? And the internal dialogue was that, listen, I said what I said, because I deeply care for somebody. And I simply want them to have the strongest presentation possible. And if he gets my opinion and throws it in the trash and discards it, it doesn't matter. I'm just saying somebody who deeply cares about this very generous, kind human being, I'm going to say it. And my thing was, hey, I could have not said anything. And that's like letting you go in front of people and then...

52:52Yeah, falling on my face or worse. Yeah. And I just said, just let it be. Just let it settle. Like, shake it off. Like, you said what you said in a deep form of care. And about 15, 20 minutes later, you're like, hey, let's have a chat. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God. First, it was the notebook and I'm writing in the notebook. And next, I got to chat with the principal. And it was anything but that, John. It was anything but that. It was so light. It was so casual. You're like, huh, stabbing. Stabbing is like a hard word, like stabbing in the front. And I was like, oh, well, I suppose it's just figurative.

53:24It's just, I want to say something to you. You're like, let's go take a walk. I need a pen. And we're walking and we're talking and you're finding a pen and you come back and you're like, oh, there's probably better ways for us to say exactly what it is you're saying without it being perhaps physical or violent. And I shook my head And I was like, yes, yes. She's like, why don't we try? Why don't we try thinking of something that we could say instead of those things? And you had said, John, can I apply a little bit of pressure to that? And I will tell you, John, bricks came off my shoulder. I said, this man, kind, good, strong, and honoring.

54:03So thank you. Thank you. It's been a real joy getting to know you. And I look forward to many more terrible meals with you. I'm going to hold you to that, especially if I'm the one cooking. I could not be more thankful to loop the conversation there because right before we were going to go live, John had said, oh, so are you going to stab me in the front? And I'm not sure if the mics had picked up. I hope they did. I hope they did. Because I was like, you know what? We're going to come back to this because I believe that life is a series of full circles. And so I look forward to creating more concentric circles with you in this amazing community.

54:33But more than that, John, I hope that what you share to other people has empowered them to go out and start creating their own real connections, real connectivity to go out and change the world from their perspective in their way. How do people find out more about you and follow on this amazing journey? Oh, wow. So I'm more than happy to share my ideas. I'm the easiest person to get a hold of. So LinkedIn is probably the only place I really share. And you can go to my website, J-O-N-L-E-V-Y, JohnLevy.com. I have several books. I've one about the science of adventure. I have this one. And then I have another one coming out in October, October 7th.

55:09And other than that, I frankly, more so than following me, I'd rather people just like text a friend to hang out or we're like in the midst of a loneliness epidemic. We need people. People are struggling with a lot. You want to hear a crazy stat? We were at an all time low in 1985 when the average American had about three friends besides family. by 2004 19 years later less than a generation we were down to about two and it's gotten so bad now that 15 of all men in the u.s have zero friends and that's really rough because when you look at the things that predict how long we live you know and our general health it's our connections and the number of people we come in contact with.

55:58If you want to look at the workforce, you can kind of predict a company's stock value and employee sick days and profitability based on how connected or trusting the company is. And so if with everything going on right now, we just really need each other. So if you're going to do anything besides buying a million copies of my book, go out there and find a friend, you know, be open to chatting with somebody, host people, bring them together, gather, celebrate, drink the good stuff. Drink the good stuff when you can. Let's up-level. Let's build some trust with John. Text a friend. And if you happen to meet them in person, snap a selfie.

56:36Doesn't have to go anywhere, except perhaps to John's LinkedIn. Just drop it there and say, thank you for how you've impacted us. John, thank you for how you've impacted me. JohnLevy.com. Thank you for watching and listening to The Jasmine Star Show.