#1968 - Jason Everman

27:14Like catastrophic, right? Or could have been catastrophic. And just the fact that it was like a Friday afternoon, I'm sure it was like a post -it note on some dude at Epic's like computer monitor, drop MindFunk. It's like, oh shit, I got to do that. So it's like a fuck, you know. It's like a $300 ,000 recording budget. Terry date is producer. Like the band's literally homeless. Like we're going to live at the studio. But it's like, okay, what now? So the dude who managed Beardsville, and I can't remember his name, he's this British guy, super sweet. And he's like, he saw we're in a tight spot.

27:55And he's like, you know, and he's out like a huge lump of money, right? Because that studio was booked out for three months. That's like a huge, you know, $4 million probably. He's like, you guys can stay here and sort out what you got to sort out. Kind of thing. So I remember Pat and I were living in one of the colleges on the property. It was like, it's a very quaint little farmhouse. And like, we're, you know, at least I won't speak for everyone, but I was in it days. I was like, um, fuck, you know, I was like already like lining up getting my warehouse job back, like all this stuff. And so I remember just like staying in this house, sleeping on this antique leather sofa, and I had my cat with me.

28:45So it's me and my cat watching bad daytime TV. I think I lived on like Cheerios and like soda. Like it's just nasty, right? Just because I was too lazy to go go to a restaurant or buy food to cook or just like, it's easy, bowl of cereal and some soda. Like this just sounds so gross now. And that even then, like, that's not how I normally ate. During that period, that's what I was eating. So I was watching bad daytime television. And I remember there was this wall hanging in the room in the living room. And it was this macrame, like, colabera. You know, kind of tacky. And I kind of started obsessing on this macrame colabera to the point where it's like, if I ever have a daughter, I'm going to name her colab macrame.

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30:25And the taste, it's damn good. It's bold and sophisticated yet incredibly smooth finishing long and deep. It's authentically American representing uncompromising quality for the rugged, the powerful, and the passionate. Tap the banner to learn more or visit buffalotracedistillery .com. That's buffalotracedistillery .com. Distilled, aged, and bottled by Buffalo Trace Distillery, 90 proof, Franklin County, Kentucky, Buffalo Trace, American, family -owned, independent, and perfectly untamed. But luckily that passed and I came up with a replacement for a daughter's name that was much better. So during that week, Johnny Z, our manager, who personally I didn't really like him that much, you know, he was kind of, there was something kind of dodgy about him, like in that music business way, that also put a bad taste in my mouth on a lot of levels, just being in that industry.

31:41But Johnny, you know, as much as I didn't like him, he came through. And maybe he was motivated by economic reasons rather than, you know, he's being a stand -up guy or whatever. But he signed the band two megaphores to his label, put up the money for the recording to record the record, put us all back on salary, so didn't miss a beat, like no one had to get a day job. And then Terry, Terry date much to his credit, like he had every right to bail, right? Okay, what's the next gig? Okay, I'm there. He got his studio time at Bad Animal Studio in Seattle, which is a heart -sold recording studio. It's gone now.

32:27Like all this happened in like a week, 10 days. Like everything was back on track, just like new label, new studio in Seattle. And so loaded up the gear, flew to Seattle. And like probably 10 days later, we're doing pre -production demos at Bad Animals and recorded the record. It was done, I think, by December the mix was done. I actually went back to New York and worked in the warehouse for a month to make some extra money. And then the band, well not the whole band, but Sean Pat and I decided to move to San Francisco. Just where I could change a venue. So I think New Year's Day or the day after, I loaded up a U -Haul with all our stuff and drove cross -country by myself, which was like a super fun road trip.

33:20And then we got an apartment in the Mission District in San Francisco. And that's where like 1993 was a very transitional year. And that's where kind of things got to the point where it's like, okay, I gotta do something different for me personally. And what happens next? So we're living in San Francisco, like that, like even while we're living in the house in New Jersey, during the recording process in Seattle and San Francisco, like taking a lot of drugs. Like a lot of, who listened to Jens mostly? But you know, had my flirtation with heroin, like first started just smoking it, you know, on tinfoil.

34:09And then went into IVU's. And like I honestly enjoyed it, but it never got as hooks in me. And I got to the point where it was like, yeah, I should probably not continue down this path and walked away from it. It's a big step to go to intravenous. Well, I'm a completist, I guess. It's like, I don't want to do it halfway. See what the fuss is all about. Yeah, exactly. What is the fuss all about? So the feeling, what's your experience with opiates? Only like while I've been under like having surgery. Yeah, so it's the same. Yeah. Just that kind of weightless feeling. It's very nice. Like it's, I guess the analogy I can make is just that kind of post -orgasmic bliss where you're weightless and everything feels wonderful.

35:01It's like that. You know, but induced artificially, I guess.

35:11Living in San Francisco. So we toured a lot that year, probably half the year. I was touring like Europe in the States. And then when we're back in San Francisco, it was like, you know, still on salary. Didn't have to work. So just hang out and like, you know, drop acid or drink mushroom tea or whatever. And as fun as that is, it was like, like long term, I don't know, you know, if this is going to be right. And you know, the record never caught fire. I think it's a solid record. Like when I hear tracks off of it now, you know, I'm kind of like, it's not bad. No, it's okay. There's a couple of the songs on that record.

35:55We're basically nascent sound garden songs, you know. There were like riffs or song ideas I had that well playing with sound garden. Like Chris would hear me playing it, like newling around. And he'd be like, oh, remember that, you know. And so I had a couple ideas in a different life would have been on the next sound garden record conceivably. So there's a couple of those songs on there. It's not a bad record. And we did played like a bunch of the big festivals in Europe. Like we did pretty much everything, but make a bunch of money. You know, which is, again, most bands. You know, most bands don't catch fire.

36:40So what happened? So during this period, 1993, I started, I guess, crafting the next chapter for me. And I'd always been really intrigued by the military. My grandfather, both my grandfather's were World War II vets. So my maternal grandfather was a tank commander in World War II. And he was kind of my introduction to like military stuff. You know, and I'm a little kid, so I'm intrigued by it. Like, you know, tank commander, that's cool. Like he, on D -Day, he was an E4 corporal, like Gunner on a Sherman tank. On V -E -Day, his unit had made it all the way to Vienna and he was a company commander.

37:34And it was just survival, like attrition. Like, you know, I'm sure he was a fine soldier, but it was just attrition that he went from corporal to captain and, you know, a year or whatever. My grandmother's second husband was a corpsman in the Navy, so his story is super funny. Like, he grew up in the small town on the Columbia River in Washington State. So his, I think there was like 20 dudes in his graduating class in high school. And so they graduated June 1942. So right after graduation, like two of one, like every, every male in his class went to the recruiter and enlisted. And so he went in the Navy.

38:20His Navy MOS was like a pharmacist made or something like that. So he's like, oh, I'll be on the ship, like working in the dispenser here or whatever. Like wrong, like he graduates, like they give him a helmet and attach them to a marine platoon, infantry platoon. And like, you're the medic. And so he did like seven amphibious assaults in the Pacific. Like the crazy stuff, right? Yeah. Like it was super hard. And he had amazing stories, you know. And then my father's father was in the Coast Guard and he did a lot of coastal patrolling. Oregon coast, Washington coast, Columbia River during the war.

39:03Just, you know, looking for Japanese subs or whatever. And so you, because you had this sort of wanderlust that made you want to go trekking the Himalayas. And you had this family, this background, the military, you were thinking that this would be something that would be adventurous or intriguing to you? Yeah. Like I've always had a taste for like high adventure, like as a child. Like before, probably even before I was school. So like Saturday morning cartoons, how old are you? 55. Yeah, we're same age. So I imagine probably grew up with similar cultural influences. So I remember in the mornings watching TV shows like cartoons like Johnny Quest was the big one, right?

39:51Speed racer, marine boy. Like all this, you know, speed racer and marine boy were anime, but they were like great. You know, marine boy was basically speed racer but underwater. You know, super cool, fantastical stuff. Great to feed the imagination. Like the writing for Johnny Quest was so good, you know? And like the show in retrospect was like kind of progressive. It's like Johnny had two dads. And like they had this like multi -racial, like composite family. But the writing was so solid. Like super creative. I think it was only 26 episodes, but each episode is distinct and well written and just cool, you know?

40:38So I would watch this as a kid and be like, I'm not sure what that is, but I want to do that, you know? So that was kind of the initial impetus for like, and then growing up in the woods in Western Washington. And like I was expected, you know, I was kicked outside after breakfast and not expected to be seen again till dinner time. And what I did between then was like on me. And so I'd go out and do stupid stuff, like climb high tension power lines, you know, to the top. Like like five, six years old, like so stupid, right? But it was like, oh, this is cool. You know, like in my mother, she definitely facilitated this stuff.

41:21Like much to her credit. Like we'd go camping in the Olympic rainforest on the peninsula. And there's like a couple rivers there, but one of the main ones is the Ho River. And I had this as a child. I had like this $20, you know, came art and flayed well raft with the ores. And my mom would drive me up river, like like 10 miles or 15 miles or whatever in our Volkswagen bus. And like, drop me off. Me and my $20 came art boat in a life vest. And she'd be like, all right, see at the campground. And so I would be doing this like, you know, white water rafting by myself in my cheesy little boat for several, several miles.

42:09And you know, then it drowned obviously. But it kind of instilled again this and we're reinforced this sense of adventure, you know. And I'm sure my mom would go to jail for that today. Probably not jail, but definitely be discouraged. So that's background for the high adventure thing, the military thing.

42:37So 1993, I'm like, okay, I need to do something. I need that punctuated equilibrium, right? I need a dramatic event in order to promulgate like the next period of growth or evolution or whatever. So you really actively thought that way? Yeah. You were trying to achieve growth. Yeah, I didn't want to stagnate. I didn't want to fall behind, you know.

43:10I guess as soon as I figured out what life authorship was or the concept, even though I may have known the term. Yeah, I kind of endeavored to actively author my own life, pursuing the ends of making a life that kept me engaged, kept me interested, then was meaningful to me. So the military seemed like more and more like a viable option for that next page, that next step. So at the time, like 1993, there wasn't a lot of books out about special operations, and pretty much the only ones that were out there were like Vietnam dudes. So I devoured every, you know, Vietnam War special operations book, whether it was like Lurps, Rangers, Seals, SF, whatever.

44:05Had Dick Marchenko written his books yet? That I don't know. I don't think so, because I think I would have remembered reading them. I read one of them when I was in Goolog and Ranger School, and it seemed kind of like over the top to me, but that's a digression. I think there was one book out about like the soft experience during the first call for, and it kind of went over different units and different operations. And I think that's the only kind of contemporary one that I was even out. But it was like, yeah, yeah, I'm going to do this. So well, we're in San Francisco, you know, between like dropping ass that I'm taking mushrooms, I was going to the recruiter.

44:53And like, I went to the neighbor recruiter first, because I actually knew someone who was a seal, a former seal. And so that seemed intriguing to me. So I go to the neighbor recruiter. And I'm like, hey, I want to, I want to be a seal. And they're like, well, here, take the ass fab. So the ass fab is like this IQ test that the military gives you. And so I took it and I scored pretty high on it. And so they're trying to push me into like more technical MOSs, you know. And I'm like, but no, that's not what I wanted. What is MOS down for? Oh, sorry. If I get too jargony, please stop me. Yeah. Military occupational specialty, your job.

45:38And the Navy doesn't even call it MOS. I think they call it rate or something like that. And so I'm like, no, I didn't want to do that. So basically it came down to they couldn't even promise me a shot at trying out for buds, you know, taking the PT test, basically. And so I didn't know really anything about the military, but I knew enough, or I suspected enough that like, okay, I'm not, I'm not going to assign anything unless I'm like guaranteed a shot. And so that's when I started talking to the Army recruiter. And they could guarantee me. So basically they gave me a Ranger contract. So Ranger regiments interesting in that it's pretty much the only special operations unit in the US military that has has privates like has brand new soldiers.

46:33Pretty much every other unit. It's all in COs. So that's kind of that's kind of your entry level soft unit in the US military is Ranger regimen. And so what happens? So I finished my mind -funk touring obligations, which I went pretty much almost up until Christmas, like in just mid -December say. And like left the ban. And I think two months later I was in basic training. What were you thinking when you were in basic training? I mean, basic training is like, it was like every movie cliche you've seen like happens. It's like, oh, and this is, you know, this part. It was, it was a necessary step, right, for the progression.

47:38It wasn't really challenging. The most challenging part about it was like not being able to do what I wanted to do whenever I wanted to do it. That was like the biggest challenge for me. Your entire life, every minute of your day is controlled. So that was kind of like, yeah, I don't know if I need to dig this. Right. But you know, I sucked it up, went through it.

48:04After what they call AIT, like advanced individual training, which for me was infantry. You go through the infantry, MOS training, go to airborne school, and then go to selection for regimen. So what was the physical aspect of it? Like, because it seemed like you're just partying and living life, you know, like a rock star before that. You'd do in heroin, all this stuff. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're involved in something that's very physically growing. But I did, I did prep. Like, I got a YMCA membership, and I was swimming at the Y. I was running. I was, even though I was kind of going into it somewhat blind, I knew that like, I can't just show up.

48:52Like, and not have any kind of fitness level, you know. So I did do some prep work. You know, I think it served me well. Was that the first time you had done physical stuff like that in your life? No. I mean, I was never, I played soccer when I was a kid. Like the soccer was like the one sport that wasn't, didn't have that jot culture, you know. So that's kind of what I gravitated towards. So any, you know, I did a lot of physical outside stuff, like my whole life. You know, I worked in Alaska on a fishing boat. Like, there was nothing. It wasn't foreign, you know, like physical exertion. And so, what happened then?

49:38A good selection. At the time, it's called RIP, like the Ranger indoctrination program. Now they call it RASP, like the Ranger assessment selection program, something like that. And I think it's a week longer now. But like, like RIP is when things got physically challenging, for sure. It was basically, you just get abused for three weeks basically. You know, they try to make you quit. And so, like, the runs, like, we do these like nonstandard runs and RIP that was, it pushed, pushed me to my limits. Like, I was always kind of at the back of the pack. Like, I was still with the main body. So I was, I was keeping up.

50:22I was meeting the standard. But like, right behind me, we're like, all the dudes who are like getting put on the truck. Like you're done, you know. So I was like, you look at that and like, dig a little deeper and like keep going, you know. But yeah, I got selected and went to the second Ranger battalion. And did you immediately get deployed? Like, what year are we talking about here? This was 93? No, 94. Okay. So this is post desert storm. Yeah. What was the environment like? So it was like, it was Clinton era military, peacetime military. So like, everything was geared towards training, right?

51:08Like, there was a few dudes in my company who were like Panama vets. And so that was like 1989, I think. Just cause. So there was some of those dudes hanging out. And I could tell they were just waiting for the next like real world up. That's all they were doing. They're biting time. And like, now I get it. And I think even then, I kind of got it. But just train. I mean, but get it. Like, you know, that's you want to do it for real. You still want to train all the time. Right. So. Yeah, it was just a lot of training. There was deployments, but it was just all training deployments. Yeah. You know, went to a ranger school, like got my ranger tab.

52:00And what happens after that? I finished my enlistment is like a four year enlistment, I think. And then I got out because it was like. In a way, I kind of thought like I achieved what I aim to achieve by going in the military. And they're definitely, you know, wasn't a war on the horizon. At least one that no one that anyone could see.

52:27So I had a break in service for a couple years. And I kind of fucked off.

52:36Ended up going to community college, which is like another kind of funny story. If you're interested. Sure. So I came back to Washington, basically, when my mother died. And so I was kind of like dealing with her and her stuff. And it was like, there's a local community college where I grew up. And like, maybe I'll give this college thing a try, you know. And so I registered for some classes. But the funny thing about that story is. When I was like 18, I guess, 17, like right before graduated high school. All my friends from high school who were going to go to college. Because like in my mind, I was never going to go.

53:34I was like, why am I going to go to college like fuck this? You know, angry young man dissatisfied on pretty much every level. But I was like, yeah, I'm not going to college. College has nothing for me. But I wanted to hang out with my friends. Like the dudes I skateboarded with and played music with and stuff. And so they were all going to take their SATs at the local community college. Like on a Saturday morning or whatever it was. And so I went with them just so I could hang out with them. And I took the SATs, but I took my SATs on acid. How'd that go? No idea. I didn't care. I never picked up, you know, the score.

54:16It was probably just like making designs on the paper or something. You know, at that point, like academia, like higher education, that just wasn't going to happen for me. And so yeah, it's kind of this fuck you punk rock thing. Like they take my SATs on acid. So fast forward ten years. I'm in that same room at Olympic college in a class. Taking an astronomy class. And the building is still there. It's called the Rotunda. And it's this round as you can imagine building on campus. And yeah, so he's laughing now. So what was your idea like doing that? Taking astronomy classes, going to college? Again, personal growth.

55:07Like maybe I should focus on this aspect now, like academia. So I did that first semester, first two semesters at Olympic college and found that I liked it. You know, I like going to class and I like taking notes and I like learning. And I'm like, oh, I get it now, you know, this whole college thing. So I finished my associates at Olympic college and then went back in the army. And so I was in the Special Forces qualification course, like when 9 -11 happened. And what caused you to go back in the army? It was a gut feeling. It was like, I don't think I'm done with this. So I went to selection and got selected.

55:59And selection, at least at the time, was good for life, basically. So how many years were you out? Like two. Two years. Yeah, not long, not long at all. And you know, I blink now and two years goes by. But a lot had happened personally in those two years. And so I'm back in the army doing the Special Forces qualification course, which for my MOS, like the 18 Bravo Special Forces weapons sergeant was like about a year and a half. So it was the first day of language school, which was six months long, was 9 -11. Wow. Yeah. What was it like being in the military when 9 -11 went down? It was like, I think everyone there.

56:49So we're, there's a group of us in this building at Fort Bragg, called the Soav, the Special Operations Academic Facility. And we're, you know, standing around the beginning of the day, like drinking coffee, getting ready to go to class, first day class. And there's television monitors on with CNN or whatever. And we're watching the planes go into the tower. And I think to a one, everyone knew that everything's changing right now. It's like, this is like 100 % for real. And like everyone was like, yeah. That's how you felt? Oh, yeah. Yeah. All the training. Yeah. Like finally we're going to do something.

57:29To what happens then? In language school for another six months. So. What are you learning? Ty. Why Ty? Is this like my, my units area of responsibility with Asia. So got to do an Asian language. And I like Ty food. So. Graduate the Q course, like do a couple of J sets in Asia. So J sets. Joint combined exchange training. So you basically go, your team goes and trains with a foreign. Special operations unit and you teach them stuff for you, you know. And it's more just to like establish rapport and maybe get some access or whatever. So do a couple of J sets in Asia and then get ready to go to Iraq to prep for the invasion.

58:25Like an O2. And like spend a lot of time in Kuwait, just like training and getting preparing. What was it like when you went there? To Iraq? Yeah. So. That was like my first like combat experience. And so. It was unique in that. So my team and a couple other teams are basically attached to. Fourth ID to provide kind of route reconnaissance and screening and stuff for the kind of this main. And a conventional military, you know, invasion. And so watching watching big army work, you know, do what they do best was pretty amazing. Like, like tank engagements. Like I never thought I'd witness that.

59:19It was just almost like a. And it's probably a trite cliche, but like a movie, you know. Watching this massive mechanized force just like crush everything in its path. So, yeah. When you were over there was any doubt that you had done the right thing by enlisting and again. No doubt. No doubt at all. Yeah. You were geared up ready to go. Yeah. So what happened when you're over there? I got some gunfights, you know, hit some targets. And then, you know, redeployed back to the stage. You say that so casually. Got gunfights and hit some targets. Like it had to be a pretty extreme experience. Yeah, but honestly, I think my Afghan experiences were more intense than Iraq for sure.

1:00:14Yeah. It's just it was a different animal. And what did that happen? So, it did some rotations in Afghanistan following the Iraq invasion. And it was kind of the more traditional like SF mission, like working with indigenous troops and leading them on raids and things like that. That's got to be a wild change of life to go from being a musician, to go from being a deployed special operator in Afghanistan. Like the shift in consciousness is so extreme. Maybe. Maybe? But I think I'm pretty good at just rolling with stuff, you know? It's like, oh, this is happening now, okay? But that's a big happening.

1:01:07It's a huge happening to be in combat. I mean, definitely, I think the war in combat was the most profound experience of my life for sure. And I don't mean to maybe treat it lightly, because I don't take it lightly. Yeah, by far the most profound experience of my life. So many guys who come back from that, not only do they say it's the most profound experience of their life, but many of them say it was the best experience of their life. I understand that. For sure. Like, I guess I could encapsulate it like this. Like, you got your dudes, you know, your team, your little indigenous troopers, and you're going to go crush some target.

1:02:00And, you know, you know, like, I never had a doubt that, like, maybe I would get injured or killed, but I never had a doubt that the mission would fail. Just because the odds are just in our favor. You know, it's like, you got night vision, you got a cast stack, you got this huge support apparatus. It's like, there's no way we're not going to win this fight.

1:02:25But going on target, closing with, destroying the enemy, and then getting you and all your dudes back to base alive, best feeling in the world. Really? Yeah. So many guys say that. Best feeling in the world. Wow. Yeah. What is it like, what can you describe it? It's, um... Are you giving a attempt? I think, like, and I got my kind of evolutionary ideas about why that is. I think that we're on a very essential level. Like, doing what human beings are one of the things we're meant to do. Or maybe one of the things we've always done. Well, we're an adversarial species. But, like, every species in nature is adversarial.

1:03:18You know, and it's not an evaluative statement. It's just kind of an observation. So I think on this, just the way our brains are, like, evolutionarily. Like, okay, we're the monkeys with the big brains, right? And we've created this very technologically advanced, if not challenging, environment now that we live in. But the way our firmware up here, we're still hominids on this savanna, you know, like 100%. And so I think, through war, through combat, we kind of tap into that primal... Okay, this is what we're supposed to do, you know? Was that surprising to have that part of your mind sort of ignited in a sense where you realize that this is like something that's deeply embedded in your DNA?

1:04:16Yeah, I mean, I know I'm making that claim, but it's not based on, like, scientific research I've done. It's just kind of an intuition. Well, many, many make that claim. It's not uncommon thought. Yeah, so it rings true to me. And, like, have you read, like, a... That's a Sebastian Younger book, Tribe. Yeah. Great book. Yeah. And, like, his thesis, like, that's the first kind of PTSD thesis I read that kind of rang true with me. Because, like, before that, the popular conception was, you know, these young men and women go off to war and see horrible things and come back fucked up. But, like, his thesis, they lose that tribe, right?

1:05:01That task and purpose, unity of effort, you know, literally, we're tribal creatures. Yeah. That's how we operate. I did a paper when I was doing my undergrad. I think I was trying to investigate, like, genetic impetus for, like, human conflict or whatever. And, like, some... One of the... during my research, one of the things I found that was super interesting to me was the way, psychologically, we're equipped to deal with about 100 to 120 individuals. Like, that would be our extended tribe, our social group. Dunbar's number. Is that what it is? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's this group of people that you can contain in your mind.

1:05:48Yeah. And it's segmented. There's, like, a small number of people that you're intimately attached to. There's a larger number that are close, but more, like, associates, friends. And then there's people that you know, and it extends out. It actually extends even further than 120 or 150. It gets to, like, people you are aware of. Yeah. But it's fairly small, which is one of the weird things about knowing a lot of people. Yeah. So that number gets really weird, and then your memory of people, it's almost like your brain deletes them, because there's no room. But then, like, how well do you know them as well?

1:06:28Right. Like, how intimate is that relationship? An interesting correlation I made, like, researching this paper was that that number is the same number in army -tastic organization as an infantry company, is 120. And that's kind of like, you know, your main operational unit in the infantry, at least, like, soft. You're dealing with smaller teams, smaller numbers. But I thought, wow, 120. That's it. You know, and is that by design, or is that just the way it worked out? It's probably goes back to our tribal routes, most likely, that we evolved being accustomed to that group of people, that number of people, or a similar number.

1:07:13Yeah. I mean, just survival. Like, our mission statement is biological organisms, you know, even like the big brain monkeys that we are, it's like, like, survive and replicate the gene. Yeah. And like, everything else is kind of window dressing, you know? Yeah. And like, you can window dress, however you want, to make it seem more important than that. And I'm a huge fan of the window dressing. Like, that's definitely the salt in the soup, for sure. But if you boil it down to, you know, it's, you know, what is the quiddity of being a human being? It's that, or any biological organism, like, survive and replicate the gene.

1:07:57And so the whole capacity for combat, for human warfare, is like, even as an individual, if you're killed in combat, if you go back to, like, this group of hominids on the savannah, you're probably related to everyone in your group. So it's like, okay, maybe I won't pass my genes on, but my cousin over here will. So I'm going to support that effort. So I think that kind of organized conflict, one group against another, it's in support of that. Like, I think anthropologists have a term for a pseudo -kinship, where, say, in a combat situation. So you got, like, the classic scenario of, like, a dude jumping on a hand grenade to save his buddies.

1:08:49And that's like, that's hard wire. That's not a conscious decision. Because I think, if you had time to actually think about it, maybe you wouldn't do it. Right. You know, but it's that pseudo -kinship, like, I think that's, and to me, that's always what's been, I think the most interesting paradox about war and combat is it's this event, this human event, that simultaneously brings about acts of pure selfless love and brutality without quarter. In the same instant. So that's always intrigued me. Well, it's always fascinating for me to talk to people that are intelligent, like yourself, that have experienced that.

1:09:40Because that thread that you're expressing, it seems to ring true with almost all of them. That there's something about it that, although brutal and maybe in some ways unexpected, it also rings true with, like, a purpose, and that your life is intimately connected to these people. And in some way, that becomes more satisfying than any other way to live. Yeah, and to hear a person like yourself who's obviously very smart, express that, it's always, it's really interesting to someone like myself who hasn't experienced that, but kind of understands what you're saying. I'm sure you do. I mean, I'm sure it rings true with you, right?

1:10:33Yeah. Like, just intuitively. Yeah. Yeah. And you're aware of this while you're experiencing, because you're obviously an analytical person, so you're aware of this while you're experiencing it.

1:10:48So I can think of instances where I've had these flashes of awareness.

1:10:56Okay, I remember one target, like we have to end, like a helicopter assault force. So I was on the second 47. No, I think I was on the second lift. Like, it's a pretty big element going in. And I remember landing in this poppy field, like stepping off the ramp, and like, I could hear gunfire. Like, there was already, is already on, right, on target. And so I got my little Afghan commando troopers, so like, okay, man, let's go. And like, I'm running up this hill. And I was aware in that moment, like, okay, this is odd. This is, you know, the cliche of like running to the gunfire. And I, I don't consider myself like a heroic person at all.

1:11:47It was, it wasn't, it wasn't even a conscious decision. I was doing it. And it was like, I was trying to get there as quickly as I could. And it did occur to me, like, yeah, this is kind of weird. You know. But it is your training, and it also is your purpose. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know which supervins on what, but yeah, for sure. How bizarre was it the whole poppy field thing? Because I remember one of the most interesting aspects of the war was that we were protecting poppy fields. And there was this weird video, I don't know if you've ever seen it, of Geraldo Rivera, who was on Fox News, spinning this in some sort of a way, but realizing how ridiculous it sounded.

1:12:32While he was interviewing a general who was on the field, or I don't remember his general soldier who was on the field who was explaining why they were doing this, that they were guarding the poppy fields so that these people could keep making heroin. And, you know, you're, you're looking at this, and especially someone who has a knowledge of Vietnam, that it was intimately connected with drug running, and that there was a lot of that going on. That was part of the purpose of it, and that somewhere, someone was profiting off of this to the tune of billions of dollars. And you're not exactly sure how, or how it was being done, or what involvement the United States military had in it.

1:13:12But in this particular instance, you're living in the era of social media and the internet. Not necessarily social media, but at least the internet, where people are very aware of things like that, that are at the very least inconsistent with the narrative that we have here in America, the drugs are bad. Bad people sell drugs, bad people make drugs. We have to stop the drugs from getting into the country. Now, here you are, you know, we're watching Herald Rivera, a Fox reporter putting this like really clunky spin on why we have to do this. And I can only imagine it's because it had already been exposed that the United States was doing that, and they had to say, well, we have to come up with some sort of an excuse for why we're guarding heroin production.

1:14:03So, I guess my understanding of if the U .S. Mill was doing that, is probably like a secondary consideration, because like, at least down south, that's a huge part of the economy. It's like opium production. And I would guess it would be eradicating the poppy fields would be a worse choice, economically destabilizing these people who are already super poor. But it's also for sure, aiding in the profit of selling heroin. Oh, I mean, the Taliban would make money from opium production, even though it's against Islam or whatever. I don't know how to crack that nut. Was that talked about over there?

1:14:49I know DEA was over there doing their thing. What were they doing, Selon? I don't know. That's what so strange is that it seems like, especially when you have this disconnection from the mainstream media and from channels of information getting to other people, that this is a part of what's happening over there. I believe at one point in time was 90 % of the world's heroin. Yeah. Yeah, it was coming from Afghanistan. Yeah. I mean, I don't have an answer. Bizarre, though, right? Yeah. Did you think how bizarre it was when it was just that was inconsequential, that was not... Yeah, it wasn't like, oh, another poppy field.

1:15:37Like, it was just part landscape. But yeah, I probably didn't put much thought into it. How did they cultivate the pot? I mean, they were doing all this in the middle of combat, in the middle of war. Like, how were they handling all that? I mean, like, in my experience, like, if we did hit a target, there was like, in a remote place like that, like, they weren't seeing coalition forces often, if at all. You know, it's kind of like, they probably thought they weren't safe even. So, I mean, I think when you get closer to the built -up areas and at least at the time, I mean, like, the whole Afghan government was so corrupt anyway.

1:16:22So, I think probably the main people making money were, you know, Afghan generals. You know, which I think at one time, the Afghan army had like 3 ,000 general officers or something. That, like, this inverted pyramid of leadership. Like, oh, I'm a general. You know, and they all have mansions, and it's all corruption money. How where was that? Being a part, like, that's the side that you were on. When you're over there sort of helping? Yeah, like, I think you just got to focus on the tribe, right? Like, it's like you and your dudes and you have this task and you're going to accomplish it to the best of your ability and bring everyone back alive.

1:17:09And then, the political side of it, I mean, yeah, it would be easy to get kind of demoralized. Yeah, that's why I'm out here. If you focus on that. Yeah. Was it bizarre for you, someone who has done heroin to think like, oh, this is where it comes from? I mean, I think I was conscious of that, but like, it didn't. It wasn't that crazy. It's like. So even though you knew that there's a rampant corruption and that there's a lot of things that were kind of fucked, it was still your tribe, your task. Yep. Did you spend any time pondering like whether or not you were going to do it? Yeah, I think I reflected on it and then would just do it.

1:17:58Did anybody talk about it over there? Yeah, I think. Yeah, and I would talk about it too. As the war progressed, you would see these mansions being built around Kabul and stuff. These were ridiculous concrete mansions. Our tax dollars are paying for that mansion. Or it's corruption, money, or it's opium, money, or whatever. And it's just part of the culture there. How do you fix that? I remember talking to one of our interpreters over there. So I'm not married, don't have a family. So obviously everything over there is very family oriented or family tribe. Everything's geared towards blood relations and things like that.

1:18:53And the stronger and larger your family is, the stronger your tribe is, like that whole thing. It's like a different paradigm than we have in the West. And so we're talking, we're just bullshading. And he's asking me about my family. And I'm like, oh, I don't have a family. Just me, but my neighbor has the keys to my house and they can go in and take care of stuff. If I need something taken care of and all this. And the first thing he asks is, and they do not steal all your things. Because that's what he was thinking. If I had your keys, I'd be stealing your shit. And that's the mentality. It's different.

1:19:39The house is down there. Each family unit house is a miniature fortress. And it's because it's this culture that they habitually prey upon each other. So the houses need to be these mini fortresses. We're here in the West. I don't have a fence around my property. My neighbors have my keys. It's fine. How bizarre was that to go there and experience this completely different way of life with other human beings living on another part of the world completely different set of values, different goals and expectations, different religion? It was fascinating. Just because that part of the world, like Central Asia, is such a fascinating part of the world, all the way back to antiquity.

1:20:32All the history that's like transpired in that area. Any chance I got to see something somewhat historical, there's still remains of Greek ruins from 300 BC. Really? In Afghanistan? Yeah, really. There was a whole, I never got to this town, but up on the Oxus River, there's been several attempts over the decade to do an archaeological excavation of the entire city. But it's like, it's a no -shit Greek city in Central Asia. Wow. So when Alexander of Macedon, when Macedon, and Macedon, Alexander of Macedon, Alexander the Great. Yeah, was his campaign in Asia. So he pushed all the way to the Indus River, but what he would do along the way is establish Alexandria's.

1:21:28So you know Alexandria and Egypt, but there's multiple Alexandria's. Like the etymology of Kondahar, the town in Afghanistan, is, you know, if you go back, it was Iskandahar, and Iskandahar literally means Alexandria. That was one of the Alexandria's that he established in Central Asia, and all over Persia, and Asia Minor, like that was the thing. And so it was a way to kind of maintain a foothold in that part of the world, like build a city, establish like a Greek education system to educate the locals in the Greek model. So he was kind of projecting, you know, he was in it for the long game, like this is part of Greece.

1:22:19It's going to be Greek. And the Greco -Bacterian Empire, if you want to call it that, probably lasted like 100 years, and then it just fell apart. Is there like documentation of the Greek cities, the ruins in Afghanistan? Yeah. Jamie, can you pull some of that up so you can find that? That's fascinating. I had no idea. So the old Alexandria. So there it is. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. And so that's just abandoned now. Yeah. That's amazing. And is this from 300 BC? Yeah. Around that. Wow. That's amazing. I have no idea. So at one point in time, that had been some sort of a thriving community.

1:23:11Yeah. The city on the axis. I can see where it says I can see Wikipedia. That was the city on the axis. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So they had an amphitheater. Yeah. It was a full -on Greek city. That's incredible. Yeah. That is wild. And so how did they maintain it and how did it collapse? I mean, I don't know. Look at that. That's intense, man. But that's up north in Kundus. What is that statue of Jamie? It's just a history. Yeah. It's a Buddhist statue. Yeah. It's a Buddhist statue. The Buddha's Obamion. Like the Taliban blew those up. Oh, right. Yeah. Fuck. What a bummer. Yeah. How old were those?

1:24:08That I'm not sure. But there's a lot of historians think that, like, like the Vedas and Buddhism kind of started, like, more in the Afghanistan area. Really? No kidding. The Vedas. Yeah. Wow. Look at all these fucking, all these Buddhas. Yeah. There's tons of, uh, that there's some really cool. So there was this really interesting period of history of, of Greco -Buddhism in Central Asia. There was one, um, one of the Greco -Bacterian kings, Menander actually converted to Buddhism. And there was this brief moment of, um, a brief period of Greco -Buddhism in Central Asia. And so the - Wow. The Buddhas.

1:24:58That were, uh, carved. So they're carving statues of the Buddha and stuff. But it's in this total Greco -Roman style. So they're beautiful pieces of art. And it's literally, uh, a Greek Buddha. You know, you look at it stylistically. And it's like, that's Greek, but it's a Buddha. And it's, it's cool, cool, you know, flash in the pan of history. You know, or that. Are those all gone? The Taliban blow them on? No. I mean, these - So there's actually some, at the, at the Met, New York, that I've seen, um, I've seen some at the National Museum in Kabul. Um, look at that. Yeah. That's so strange, because it's so obviously, like, influenced by Greek art.

1:25:50Yeah, the - the folds in the robe and all that. Yeah. Wow. Wow. It's really, really cool, really interesting. Human civilization is so bizarre. The rise and fall of these empires and these civilizations. And for you to go and visit it in the middle of combat, must have been particularly bizarre. Yeah. Like, I would, like, I would try to, I try to get in, do my share of, for lack of a better term, like, tourism. Like, uh, like, I went to the old Citadel outside of Kondahar, where you, right now, when you're on the ground, it doesn't look like anything. But if you go to, like, Google Earth, you can see the old outline of the city walls, and you could see the, like, the Citadel in the middle.

1:26:44And it's, like, it's still there, the remains of it. Um, the, um, like, up in Nurestan, which is a super -interesting part of Afghanistan. It's, it's, like, the Northeast part of the country. And it's a region that wasn't even converted to Islam until the end of the 19th century. Hmm. Like, it's, you, you can make the analogy of, they're, like, the Basque in Spain, right? It was, like, this mountainous region that kind of was able to retain, like, its cultural and linguistic identity because of the terrain, like, it was more defendable. So, Nurestan was like that as well. And so, they were finally a forcibly converted to Islam into the 19th century.

1:27:30And before that, they were called Kaffiristan, which is, like, land of the Infidel. Mm -hmm. And then, once they underwent the conversion process, they became Nurestan, which was land of the Enlightened. Oh, wow. Yeah. But it's, it's such an interesting place. I liked it a lot because it reminded me of home where I grew up, because you have, like, Alpine forest. It, it looks like Yosemite. Like, if they could ever have peace there, they could have, like, a trekking industry, you know, eco -tourism, whatever, like, white river rafting down the Kunar River. Like, is it, is gorgeous? And there, there was places where, in Afghanistan, where I was like, I could be home on the Olympic Peninsula right now.

1:28:15Why? Like, mountains, Alpine forest. Yeah, there, there's the old Citadel. That's incredible. Yeah. I had no idea this stuff was there. Yeah. The history of Afghanistan is so fascinating and so spectacular, and so, like, the futility of trying to conquer that place, and control that place. It's going to be what it's going to be. Yeah.

1:28:44Like, you're not, you're not going to change it. You know, you're not going to westernize it. It's not going to happen. Did you, like, it's so crazy that we were there for so long. It's a 20 -year war. Would you have ever imagined that while you were there? No. Like, if you would have told me, a September 10th, 2001, like, oh, yeah, we're getting ready to be in a 20 -year war in the Middle East in Central Asia. I would have been like, no fucking way. That's just not going to happen, you know, and then boom. What was it like to you when we pulled out of it, finally? On the one hand, it was like a relief.

1:29:24It's like, you know, enough already. It's like, we're obviously not fixing that place. You know, it's doubtful we could fix it. I think it would have been clever to hold on to Bogrum and maintain a strike force there to put out fires, so to speak. But other than that, let it be what it's going to be, you know, and like, protect U .S. interests as needed, but, you know, we're not going to change that place. It's so crazy that we didn't learn from the Russian invasion. We didn't learn from the Russians' battle in the Mujahideen, which we support, which is so strange that everyone makes the same mistakes.

1:30:11Or the British, or the Greeks, you know. It's like the Greek foothold there lasted, you know, what, a hundred years. So, historically, that's nothing.

1:30:26There's no place like it on Earth in that regard. Because of the terrain, because of the people and the religion, and the way it's controlled areas are controlled by warlords. Yeah, it's all tribal. That's the way they politically, that's the way they govern themselves, and that's just the, you know, and it's not even an evaluative statement. It's like, yeah, it's not Western style, but okay, you know. What are you going to do? They got to, at some point, as long as they're not impinging upon, it's a, I guess, I have a very libertarian perspective. Like, you know, if they don't fuck with us, we shouldn't fuck with them.

1:31:14Right. Yeah, that's, there's a futility in trying to be the policeman of the world. It's exhausting. You know, and ultimately, you're going to fail. You're going to drain all your resources, trying to manage something literally on the other side of the planet to what end. Right. And then there's these entities that are profiting off of that futile attempt, which they would like to continue that money flowing in. So they continue this, this thing that everybody knows you're eventually going to have to stop. Yeah, definitely. It turned into an industry, for sure. And will you aware of that? Why were there that there was no way out of this?

1:32:03I mean, I don't, I guess, I always suspected that it would never be, like, it wasn't going to be like, hey, check this out. Democracy. It's cool. Right. You know, like, I pretty much knew that wasn't going to fly. I think the best I could hope for was this stability, you know? And that didn't happen. No. You know, there was some really bizarre moments after we pulled out of Afghanistan where they were interviewing the Taliban and talking to them about women being in control or women, you know, being in government and whether or not they were going to accept sort of this Western idea of diversity and inclusion, and they were just fucking laughing.

1:32:51Yeah. Yeah. It's absurd to them. Yeah. You know, just like the other side of the coin is absurd to us. Yeah. So how do you bridge that gap? Especially when you deal with the history of the place, the, you know, hundreds of years, hundreds and hundreds of years of living that way. The idea that we're going to go in there with tanks and fix it. We're going to force you to be democratic. Yeah. It's like, okay, that's not going to happen either. And also the rampant corruption that exists in the people that are in power. You know, we're talking about these mansions and the selling of the heroin. It's like, what are you going to do?

1:33:31How are you going to get those people to straighten out? You're not. Yeah. It's ingrained. It's cultural. It's maybe even more than cultural, you know? Was there a time when you were over there, like towards the end of your time there, where you were recognizing the futility of this? Yeah, I think big pictures, yeah. But again, you're there to do a job so you can't, you can't do all the negative, you know? And it's like, you need to believe in the mission, you know? And I believed in the mission as far as like, myself and my teammates, like we're going to do what we have to do and do to the best of our ability and everyone come home alive, you know?

1:34:22Yeah. Complete your task and support your tribe. Yeah. Yeah. How long were you over there for? I did like four rotations. So I left the army the second time, like 2007, when I was, basically went back to school. What was it like to make that transition from being over there in one of the most bizarre wars we've ever been a part of, and then going back to school, going back to civilized society, going back to Western culture? Again, I think just my disposition, I tend to just go with things. You have a very unusual disposition. Really? I don't know. Like, I think four out of five ex -girlfriends pulled would suggest I'm good at compartmentalizing things.

1:35:19Four out of five? Yeah. What about the fifth one? No, I'm guessing.

1:35:26No, it's just, I made the transition. I thought, well, it's like, okay, cool. I'm in school, like, now working on this chapter, you know? Why do you think some people struggle so much, and you were able to, sort of, at least fairly smoothly make that transition? I don't have the answer to that. I don't know. Did you have friends that struggle? I mean, most of my friends from the military are soft guys. Yeah. And I think, in general, like, they're adaptable, you know? I think that's kind of a soft, a special operation soldier criteria is you need to be flexible and adaptable and quick on your feet like that.

1:36:12And more resilient. And more resilient in human beings. I would think so, yeah. Yeah, I would think so too. At least my experience with them. I've had conversations with special forces, guys, where they explain to me the reason why less of them experience the kind of PTSD that some of the other guys had. And they said, because we were proactive. We weren't reactive. We were going and doing things. It wasn't like we're sitting around waiting to be attacked. And some of the guys that are sitting around waiting to be attacked, the anxiety of that was kind of overwhelming. I can see that. Yeah. If you're just sitting on a fog, like waiting for that rocket attack.

1:36:56Yeah. And so you come back in 2007 and you decided you're done? That's it. Yeah. So I was at another crossroads and it was like, I can reenlist or I can go to university. So I applied. A friend of mine in New York was like, you're pretty smart. You should apply to Columbia. And I was like, I would never get accepted there. That's not going to happen. And so almost as a joke, I applied to Columbia. And I applied to Seattle University as well. Only two schools I applied to ended up getting accepted to both. And so with the Columbia thing, it was like,

1:37:50okay, am I going to step up to the challenge or go, I mean, not necessarily the easier route, but maybe the more comfortable route, which would have been Seattle U. And I went for Columbia. It's like, okay. Challenge accepted, you know. And what did you study in Columbia? Philosophy. A lot of money in philosophy. I don't know if you knew that. I heard it's right up there with gender studies. Do you like some coffee? Yeah, please.

1:38:31Cheers. Cheers. So how much time did you do there? So they accepted a lot of my Olympic college credits, shockingly. And they accepted my military language school for my language requirement. So I basically had to do three years there to finish my undergrad. And then you went to graduate school as well? I had a break, but yeah, ended up going to graduate school in 2016 maybe. And what do you do now? So now I mostly do yacht delivery. Yacht delivery? Yeah, sailboats. Oh, wow. Yeah. And was that like, how does that come about? So there's a story there. Okay. Okay. Let me organize this real quick in my head.

1:39:33It's like 2014. Okay, so I finished my undergrad. I was now holder of an Ivy League degree, like much to my chagrin. And I went through a personal crisis that was pretty bad. It was almost up there with like the sound garden personal crisis. And so I kind of did a similar thing where it's like, okay, I need to take some time off, you know, to do some work on myself, you know. And so how that translated was, I'd always been really interested in Argentina as a country and as a place. So I got a flat in Buenos Aires and went and lived there for a couple months and kind of did this deep period of introspection.

1:40:30But during this time, before I left, a good friend of mine suggested this book called Dove, written by a man named Robin Lee Graham. And so he's like, he's like, hey, I just read this book. You should read it. I think you'd really dig it. And I didn't even know what it was about. So I found a used copy and took it with me down there and read it. And so it's the story. I don't know if you've even heard of this story or Robin Graham. But he did. I think he started in 1967. He did a solo circumnavigation and a sailboat that took him about five years to do. But he, at the time, he was the youngest person to ever do that.

1:41:14He started when he was like 15. And it was like, it got a lot of press, like, National Geographic covered it. I think he's been on the cover of National Geographic like three times. And so it's an interesting account. His solo circumnavigation took him five years along the way. He met this woman, Patty, like this young, you know, pretty hippie chick, like somewhere in the South Pacific. And they fell in love and got married. And she would kind of meet him in different spots as he finished the circumnavigation. And then the book ends. He returns to Los Angeles, a circumnavigation complete. And I'm like super cynical, like, going, OK, what happened now?

1:42:02And I'm like, I bet that marriage didn't last. Because after something, I guess I equated it to a war zone romance or something. You know, where you're kind of in this super heightened environment. So if you bring it back to this normal life, like, does it survive? Like, is like what made it interesting or exciting or whatever? You know, do you kind of get back to reality? And it's like, yeah, you know, you're not that interesting or whatever. So yeah, I'm super cynical, like that marriage didn't last, whatever. So, but then I started doing some internet research on Robin Graham. And turns out he wrote like a second book called The Sailor Returns from the Sea or something like that.

1:42:49So what, what did happen? And he did go through kind of a dark period after the circumnavigation. That I won't get into because I bet he told me about it personally. So he and Patty in like the early 1970s. So they get back from like five years, you know, sailing the world basically. It's pre internet, pre the communication that we have now. So obviously 1965 to 1970 was a pretty turbulent period in like American history. And so Robin essentially missed all that. And he gets back to the States and was it a Stanford? I think Stanford offered him like a full ride scholarship. So he went for a semester and basically couldn't deal with all these lefty professors.

1:43:43And like I'm out of here. And so he and Patty loaded up like a mail truck, I think, loaded up all their stuff and went to Montana and homesteaded in Montana. Like super old school, like 19th century homestead. Wow. And so I'm doing this research and it's like a callous bell Montana. My buddy Mike from Ranger Battalion lives in callous bell Montana. So I'm in my flat in Buenos Aires. And I email Mike. I'm like, hey dude, did you know a guy in callous bell named Robin Graham? Like 30 minutes later, I get an email. It's like, yeah, I saw him in Costco yesterday. Like no fucking way. And so, hey, can you can you do like an email introduction for me?

1:44:29And he's like, yeah. And so, you know, fast forward to today, I'm very happy and proud to call Robin and Patty friends, you know? Like amazing human beings, like so cool. And so the sailing thing to bring it back, like reading dove, and like getting to know Robin and stuff, I started getting interested in sailing. And like I, you know, I live in Western Washington on Puget Sound. Like it's a very nautical culture. And I worked on boats in Alaska and actually come from kind of a nautical family on my father's side. Like they all worked on tug boats on the Columbia River. Like my grandfather, my dad, my uncles, my dad was a commercial fisherman in Alaska.

1:45:20Like ran his own boat for decades. And so it seemed like kind of a natural thing. Like I've always been attracted to boats in the water. So I started looking, you know, I did the practical thing, started looking for a sailboat. And I found one for sail that was about 10 miles from my house. But I knew nothing about sailboats. So I'm like pinging people I know who do know stuff about sailboats. I'm like, hey, is this boat any good? You know, look at the pictures, look at the year and the design and everything. So it was a 1986 Geno Sunrise 34. Slope. And like all these people, like, yeah, it's good boats, good boat.

1:45:59Like, yeah, the price is right. So I'm watching it. And the price kept dropping. And then it got low enough where it's like, it was kind of in my room. So I contacted the broker and like actually went down and looked at the boat, like did a walk through. And I was like, so it's the seller taking offers on this. And he's just like, yeah, make one. And so I went, I had some deployment money saved up. And I had, I could pile up about 17 grand and so at the time. So I offered 17 ,000 and like half hour later, it's like you got a boat.

1:46:44So that was the beginning of my personal, you know, sailing adventures. Did you live on it? Nope. My folks did that for a while. When they retired, my mom and my stepdad decided to live on a sailboat. They flew around the keys and they went down to Bahamas. They just decided to just live on a boat for a while until my mom got bored with it. Yeah. Oh, I was like, well, that's kind of a fucking place. That's ridiculous. But I think it was a very educational and enlightening experience to just live in nature on the ocean for a while. That's a wanderlust appeal to a lot of people. Just get on a boat and live on a boat and wake up and have coffee on the ocean.

1:47:35It just exists out there. Yeah. I bought the boat with the intent, at least with the vague intent of doing a circumnavigation of my own. Really? Yeah. Because it seems like what appeals to me about sailing is outside of electronic navigational aids. It's the same as it's always been. It's like you and the boat and the sea and the wind and you got to make it work. And there's something like really like when you actually get on in the water and you got the sails up and you're on a good tack and the boats doing its thing. It's an awesome feeling. It's like I'm not going to quite say it's primal because obviously how many it's on the savannah didn't have sailboats, but it's close to that.

1:48:33It's obviously very appealing. I mean people love to do it. And the sailboat thing is like that's like the highest level of expression of nautical experience for a lot of people. Yeah, I think like being a true sailor is like sailing. Yeah. And like even at the Navy Academy at a NAPLIS, like the insins, they put them on sailboats to teach them to be sailors. Like on that very fundamental level. And it's like anything else. It's like being a soldier or a musician or like I think you have to master the fundamentals. Because if you suck at the fundamentals, you're going to suck at everything else.

1:49:22And so I've always focused on fundamentals, I mean mainly because I'm not naturally good at anything really. Like I've always had to try. And so in the support of, in the service of trying to be good at something, I've always focused on the fundamentals and trying to master them. And hopefully just have a good foundation. And that's one thing that was like unique about growing up is like a soldier and Ranger battalion. Because Ranger battalion is like super, like regiments are unique, animal. Like even within the military, even within the soft community. It's its own thing, culturally. And they always stress the fundamentals.

1:50:08And you know, it's like being a private and Ranger regiment is not easy. But the fact that it's hard, I would think makes you a better soldier. Because there's no, there's like insiose and Ranger regiment don't. They don't tolerate anything less than 100%. And if you bring anything less than 100%, you're going to find out really quick. And usually in a way that's not pleasant. And so I think having that foundation as a Ranger private, I mean I'm not going to say I'm any kind of amazing soldier. But I think it made me the best soldier that I could be for sure. And I'll always look back at regiment as like being a very key event in my life, like my time there.

1:51:12Well I think that any particularly difficult endeavor strengthens your resolve and basically everything you do in life. And when you're forced to do something, that's very, very hard to do. It just changes who you are at a foundational level. Yeah, I think it's that punctuated equilibrium that reference earlier. You need that traumatic event to be a catalyst for growth. Yeah. These big events in life that change the progression of the rest of your life. And then you look back and go, wow, what would have happened if not for that moment? Yeah, not for that experience. So did you decide not to circumnavigate the globe?

1:51:59I mean that's like a huge endeavor. It would take I think at a minimum a year. And like I don't know when the last time you had a free year. Like even the first year of COVID, it was like, and it was the most free time I probably had in my adult life. And it was still like not a lot, you know. So it's something, oh yeah, I would still love to do it. I think being able to go, like there's islands in the South Atlantic, or even in the Pacific that they don't have an airport. The only way you're going to get there is by boat, you know. And I think that'd be really cool to see. Like some kind of the last, like you can't say unexplored, but kind of the last like remote places on the planet.

1:52:48I would also imagine you would meet some very fascinating people that are also doing that. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. So like the sailing, like kind of the 50 meter target right now with sailing is, have you ever heard of race to Alaska? No. So it's this adventure race, kind of a quirky adventure race that's based back home where I live. And it's a boat race from Port Townsend, Washington to catch a kind of Alaska. And there's really only one cardinal rule. And there's a lot of other rules, but they're pretty much deal with like safety at sea and things like that. But the kind of the one cardinal rule, the race is no motor.

1:53:36Like the vessel has to be either wind powered, human powered, but no internal combustion or electric engines. How long is that journey? I think generally you could do it in a week. It's about 750 miles. So they changed the rules last year where, so before you could only go up the inside passage, like the east side of Vancouver Island. And it's very constrained waterways and like currents always an issue, because a lot of like there's pretty big tides up there, like a 12 foot tide in that part of the country's normal, you know. And so you get these big tides and constrained waterways and they turn into rivers.

1:54:23So if you don't hit the current right, they hit the tide right, you know, you're gonna have to anchor up somewhere and just wait for the tide to change. So there's those challenges, but anyway, they changed the rules last year where you could go up the Pacific side. Like just go up the straits one to Fuca, hang a right and just go up the Pacific. So that's what I intend to do, because you'll have good wind pretty much the whole time. It'd be a little sloppier, but you're not, you're not going to deal with the tides and currents. You're not going to deal with the ship traffic in the inside passage.

1:54:55You're not going to deal with like floating logs that you can hit at night. Like there's all these things that make it less appealing to me, for sure. What do you do at night in those circumstances? It's pitch black outside. You have no motor. So I got a crew of three. So the team is called Super Nautiloid. It's like a reference to my favorite black Sabbath record. And I did a logo and everything. So right now in the process of refitting the boat. And so it's a pretty big project. So right now everything's going okay. Like trying to raise money. Like set up a GoFundMe page through the Super Nautiloid site in order to fill the gaps financially.

1:55:45Because it is a pretty big project. Been doing most of the work myself so far. But yeah, the team of four. It's me, two other veterans. One friend from Ranger Battalion, one friend from SF. And then I got a buddy from the Seattle Rock Days, Barrett Martin, who was the drummer for the Screaming Trees. And he's played in a few other bands. And he's actually a Grammy award -winning producer. Like super interesting guy. Actually you dig him. You should have him on the show. He's also an ethnomusicologist. So he's gone down to Peru and recorded the like Shapivo, Shaman, like Icaros, the Ayahuasca songs.

1:56:31And he's doing a record now called Deep Amazon. Where the concept is he has all these Icaros. He recorded down in Peru. And then he's bringing in various musicians to accompany these Icaros on guitar or whatever instrument. So like I play on it. Kim and Matt from Sound Garden play on it. Peter Buck from R &M plays on it. So it's kind of this interesting cast of characters supporting these Shapivo Icaros. So the record comes out October I guess. And any profits that are made are going to go back to the tribe. So it's kind of cool. That is cool. So how much time have you been spending sailing that you're interested in doing this?

1:57:19Have you dedicated a lot of your time to that? Like as much free time as I can. I love getting out on the boat. Getting the sails up and just going.

1:57:32Like even just like sleeping on the boat. Like when my boat was moored at this one marina close to my house. Is that your boat? That's my boat getting hauled out. Wow. So the boat name is funny. So remember when I was talking about a koala macrame. So the knees bottom paint bad. That's on the to do list. But I'd modified the name if I ever had a daughter to Guida Alexandra. So it's a name that at once is beautiful and strong. So that was a concept. But like, you know, I'm probably never going to have a daughter. Do you have kids? No. No kids. No wife. No ex -wives. No kids. Wow. Yeah. I just skate through life without.

1:58:25I don't know. I mean, I guess it wasn't planned. I mean, maybe on a subconscious level. People just do to my childhood. I probably avoided it subconsciously. Yeah. A lot of people do. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people with traumatic childhoods are unpleasant childhoods. They say, I don't want to bring them on anybody else. Yeah. Because you associate what childhood is and what, you know, being a parent is with what you experienced. You know, you don't think there's another way to do it. Mm -hmm. Yeah. But I've had, I've had friends who'd be like, oh, you'd be an awesome dad. And I'm like, mm -hmm. But you would?

1:59:05I don't know, man. Yeah. And then, I don't, like going down that road and then it turns out like, oh, I do suck. Like, horrible, you know. You talked about your flexibility. You'd adjust. You'd get better at it. It's a, it's a strange experience. It's very psychedelic. Do you have kids? Yeah. Okay. You have three daughters. Having children is seeing a little person and engaging with them and having them grow with you and learning about life and in a lot of ways it gives you a chance to do it the right way. You know, like, you think about what's happened to you and you learn from that and, you know, you learn from your mistakes and raising them and you learn how to communicate with little people who are just growing and learning.

1:59:53It's very educational. It's very fascinating. It changes you fundamentally as a human being. It changes everything about you. I could imagine, like, because, again, going back to just the evolutionary thing, you're kind of fulfilling your mission. Yes. As an organism. In that way, like, it really does speak to your DNA. There's something about it. But it's also, it's like, Dave Chappelle said this to me once, and it's a great quote. He said, becoming a father didn't just change the amount of love that I have. It changed my capacity for love. I think that's very accurate. But, you know, some people, their demons don't line up with that endeavor, you know, whatever it is in their life doesn't line up with it and they don't make those adjustments because you're going to have to adjust.

2:00:50You're going to have to change your priorities. You change who you are. You change how you think about people. What's fascinating with me is I always felt about people that there were these static things. Like, you know, I met Mike. He's 70. That's Mike. He's always been 70. And then you have children and raise children and see them grow from the time they're a little baby to a person who's having a conversation with you that you go to dinner with and go to the movies with. And you know all their life experiences and the good ones and the bad ones. And it's just, I look at people now like babies.

2:01:31I look at everybody like it's very weird. I go and wonder what you were like as a baby because you obviously got to this point from being. I see in my mind or at least I envision this journey now to get to who you are now. I give people a lot more slack because of it. A lot more. I'm so much more charitable with people and their behavior and their attitudes because of that. Because I realize that a lot of what life is is determinism. It's not just free will and who you are. A lot of it is the experiences that were thrust upon you and how you had to react to those experiences. And what you were taught and who you're, you know, you know, I have friends with horrible parents.

2:02:13And that battle to deal with these mother fuckers that raised you is like, it's like a constant thing in their life that they never quite get past. You know, and I was very fortunate that my mom when she married my stepdad, they're very close and they've been close most of my life. So I've experienced bad and then I've also experienced like what it's like when a relationship works and when people are kind to each other and get along together. And it's like, so you realize like there's adjustments that everyone can make in this life to make the path smoother. To make it more, just, you know, more harmonious.

2:03:03But I really, it really changed how I think about humans. Like not just like my humans, but all humans, like everyone that I mean. I really, I really think of them as babies. It's very strange. But I think it's kind of a, I sort of decided to think that way. Because I was recognizing like the way kids like sort of adopt your thoughts on things. And my kids talk a lot of shit. They're very funny. Because in my house we talk a lot of shit. We're always making fun of things, making fun of each other. And there's a lot of laughs because, you know, that's what I do on my comedian. And to see my kids talk shit and say funny things.

2:03:46It's like, oh, I know where you got that from. It's very obvious. But it's also they're very kind too, which is very, that makes me very proud. And it's very, very nice to be able to raise children in an environment where when they get older, you see them expressing the values that you appreciate. And you think are important. Yeah, I could see. And I thought about it for a while. It's not too late. Yeah, I guess I see. Probably still got some swimmers in there. The advantage of having that XY chromosome. Yeah. It is a big advantage. You know, for women, you know, I know women that forgot to have kids.

2:04:27I mean, I say it that way. They didn't forget to have kids. But, you know, in our modern Western world, when people prepare for their life, they prepare for what society has established as the path that is the most celebrated, which is financial success. And a career that is something not just that you would be proud of, but that someone would respect. You know, like this is Debbie, she's a lawyer. You know, and she, she's a partner at her firm like, oh, Debbie's happy. And then you meet Debbie and like, oh, Debbie's miserable. You know, that she, she's very successful. But it's not harmonious.

2:05:13It's not, she's not happy. And that's, you know, it's so hard when you're in the middle of it and you're thinking so much about how other people view you. And for a lot of people, for whatever reason, they grew up in a way that they didn't either, they didn't get the respect that they deserved, or they were taught that the only way to get respect, or the only way to be appreciated, or to not feel like a failure, is to be financially successful. But some of the biggest failures that I know are financially successful. Some of the biggest masses of a life that I know are people that on paper are winners.

2:05:51And they're not. They're just a disaster. And they're filled with nonsense. And they, you know, they don't value human experiences, and love, and camaraderie, and creativity, and education, and just extracting the most fun and the most satisfying life out of this experience. Instead, they're, you know, they're concentrating on money. They want to talk to you about numbers, and expansion, and, you know, are you investing? And I have a business I'd like you to be a part of, and there's this and that. And I was like, oh, and you don't realize that it's just going to fucking end, man. And you don't realize that I think sometimes until someone close to you does die, and then you go, oh, this is so temporary.

2:06:40And I'm not enjoying this process at all. And one of the things that I'm getting out of talking to you is that you have sought out these difficult but educational experiences. And that's what makes someone fascinating. That's what makes someone cool to talk to. You know, the path of the most boring people to talk to, or the people that are just thinking about making money, they're so fucking boring. It's so brutal talking to them. Because they have this very narrow thing that they're obsessed with. And that thing gives them social status. When someone sees them, it's like, oh, there's Bill, the millionaire.

2:07:22Oh, you know, he's got, he owns his company, and this, this, that. Bill's right about to have a fucking heart attack. He's like, got very little time left, and doesn't even realize. And he's taken out of her all day to try to keep up, and, you know, doing cocaine, and cheating on his wife, and fucking flying on jets everywhere. And it looks on paper like he's the man, but meanwhile, he's a disaster. And there's a lot of people like that. Yeah, I agree with you. I think I was fortunate enough to start figuring out that stuff at a relatively young age, where I made the shift. And I think it's a very human thing to want external validation.

2:08:05For sure. Like, we're social creatures, we're these tribal creatures. Like, we want the other people in the tribe to, you know, go, yeah. But I think the internal validation, at least for me, where, like, basically, I don't mean this like in a malignant way. But, like, when you kind of stop caring what other people think about you, and focus more on what you think about yourself. Like, for me, that was like a huge shift. Like, a huge, like, giving up, like, doing things that, like, I thought that other people would think was cool, you know. Right. That's what a lot of people do, right? It's a lot of us do.

2:08:54And I'm certainly have been guilty of that in my life. Well, we all have. Like, I have to, like, it's human. It's not, and it's not that big a dig, and maybe there's a balance. But then it was like, as soon as I figured out, like, that internal validation was meant everything to me. And the external was just, it was fluff, you know. Yeah. It was this vapid thing that, at the end of the day, wasn't satisfying at all. There's some satisfaction, the respect to people that you respect. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. When you, you see this person's an exceptional person, and they enjoy being with you, like, oh, maybe I'm okay.

2:09:29And like, going, I mean, there's actually a couple of things I'd like to go back to you with, like, what you were talking about. And one was like, like, the, in reference to parents, like, I don't, maybe I'll view them as babies now. But like, as soon as I, you know, it's probably my late 20s where I started, like, viewing them as, as human beings. And like, imperfect creatures, like, we all are. And like, like, all of a sudden, I've had all this empathy for them, you know. Yeah. And there's a quote, and I think it's attributed to Plato, but I don't think it's him. I think it's more of like a 19th century thing, but it goes something like, be kind for everyone who's fighting their own battle.

2:10:13And so, like, I, I apply that to, like, people I applied to myself, you know, it's like, I'm definitely fighting my battles still. You know, I'm figuring some shit out, but it's not over. I'm sure, I'm sure it never will be. It never will be. Yeah. I don't, I don't imagine it ever is. But, you know, the process is interesting, and obviously breakthroughs are interesting. But the, what was the other point? Yeah, just the empathy for others working on yourself. Like, there's an evil, con evil quote, and I'm going to have to paraphrase because I can't remember it exactly. But he's like, you know, when I was young, I cared about what other people thought.

2:10:55And now that I'm old, I just care about what I think. Like, and it's like, it's kind of the same thing. Yeah. And yeah, obviously, I care what other people, at least the people I care about. I want them to think that I'm a decent person, right? Sure. You know, that's normal. Yeah. And again, going back to another thing you're talking about is like, the most important thing in my life these days, you know, our personal relationships. Yeah. It's like, I'm at the point now where I'm, you know, and I'm sure you do the same thing. You curate your tribe, right? Yes. And like, these relationships are like, so rewarding.

2:11:34And so, honestly, that's where I extract the most joy in my life from is these personal relationships. Yeah. That's what I'm most protective of, too. Most protective of those people, but also protective of not allowing anyone else in the tribe that I don't think you have to curate the tribe. Yeah. You have to be very careful about that because I know so many people that have been involved in friendships and relationships with people that are just disastrous. And it's like a drowning person. You try to help them and you drown too. You know, some people just will fucking drag you in and other people, they'll elevate you.

2:12:13And, you know, it's obviously not, they're not perfect experiences. We're all human, but through even mistakes and then the reconciling of those mistakes and the communication through that, it's an educational experience for everybody involved. And everyone is sort of on the same sort of path in the sense where you're trying to be a better version of who you are. You're trying to be a better person. And, you know, that might be being a better parent or being a better friend or being a better artist or whatever it is you're trying to do. But it really benefits you to be around other people that are also trying to do that thing, too.

2:12:56Because, you know, one of the beautiful things about, for me, about having this podcast is being able to communicate with so many interesting people and being able to have these conversations like we're having right now where I get, you know, I've just met you today. You know, but get a sense of your journey and your life. And I think about it through your eyes and through your perspective and it educates me. And I think it educates a lot of the people that are listening and it will resonate with them. Like, I'll kind of see where this guy's coming from. And it all, it just expands our landscape of understanding.

2:13:32Yeah, I mean, then that's ultimately what you're trying to like the word harmonious. I've used it too many times probably, but that's really what it is. Like, it's not going to be great all the time. But you want it to be as harmonious as possible. And you want it to enjoy as much of it as possible. Absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes like with you and what you did, it's like embracing things that are really fucking difficult. And through that, you get an understanding of yourself that's really not available to someone who doesn't go through struggle. That's the intent for sure. Yeah, with no, again, it's that punctuated equilibrium.

2:14:12If there's not a traumatic, a stressor say, you're not, you're not going to grow. Yeah. You're just going to flatline. And like, maybe there's no negativity there, but there's also no positivity. Right. You're just dull. And I think that's the problem with a lot of people today and why they're medicated. They're not experiencing life in a way that seems to resonate with them in a positive manner. It just doesn't seem right. It seems shitty and depressing. You know, I had this conversation with a buddy Monday of the day where he was talking about stages of his life where he was very depressed. And we came to this conclusion, but during that time, your life sucked.

2:14:56And now your life is pretty cool. And of course, you're happier. And that seems so simplistic to some people. But a lot of the, I mean, there's without a doubt, there's clinical depression. There's people that have something wrong. There's an imbalance. Whether it's a physical imbalance or a life imbalance or a trauma that they can't get over. But my friends that I know that have had those dark moments in their life, when their life turned around, now they're in a great relationship. Now they have good friends. Now they live in a good community. Those people are fucking happier. They're doing a thing that they want to do with their life.

2:15:33Those people are happier. And that's a thing that we have this sort of binary view of what happiness is. And for some people, it's like, oh, I need to get on an SSRI. I need to get on this or that or I need to do something. I need to, you know, to some sort of chemical intervention to straighten out my head. And that's not always the case. Like sometimes it's just, you got to get through that and come out on the other side and figure out what is the process of becoming a more fulfilled person. What's the process of living a harmonious life? Like, how do I do that? Like, what is the thing? And I think we get a lot of the answers to that from talking to people and from listening to people talk about it, and then from trying things and learning and growing.

2:16:29And that's something we're not... It's not a public narrative. It's not something that's being discussed. It's not something that's drilled in the kids' heads. Like, you're gonna go through some shit. But you got to trust in this process. And you've got to have guidelines in your mind of what you want to do. You have to have ethics and morals. You have to have compassion for other people. Because if you think it's all about you, you're never gonna be happy. You're never ever going to be happy. The narcissist and the people that are like deeply connected to their own wants and needs. They always get out of that feeling hollow and empty.

2:17:10And those are the people that are doing blow all the time. And just trying to find some sort of external method of elevating their... A diversion. Yeah, something. Okay, if I do this, I'm not gonna think about the important stuff. Exactly. Yeah, like the whole... I've always been intrigued by the Greek, or ancient Greek notion of human flourishing. Like the Greeks call it eudimonia. And it's this... Being, you know, endeavoring to be the best that you can be, whatever that is. And it's not talking about vocation or external stuff. But you as a person, like figuring out... I mean, everything we've been talking about, like figuring out what brings you joy, applying yourself.

2:18:02And it's hard, you know? Yeah. It's like... If it were easy... And I've had this discussion with other friends who are, you know, about human flourishing and stuff. And like... And this is gonna sound a little bit negative. But I think there's a lot of people who can't be bothered, you know? Who are fully capable of flourishing, if they applied themselves. Right. And for whatever reason, just... It's easier to do this. I think they also don't have the tools. Like they never... Like you gotta think about like your life at a young age. You sort of sought out those journeys when you can. And some people...

2:18:39They don't develop those tools. They fall into a system that's very unserving for them. Whether it's a system of, you know, getting an education. And then you have student debt, student loan debt. And then so you have to get a job. And then you get a job that pays well because you have to pay off that debt. And then you buy a house. So now you have a mortgage and you have a family. So now you have responsibilities and you have all these things. But most of your day is spent doing something you absolutely don't want to do. But it's also not rewarding. There's a lot of things you don't want to do.

2:19:10But when you do them, you're like, God damn I'm glad I did that. Yeah. Very few people who are doing a nine to five or longer job that they don't want to do have that feeling. They're just a lot of... You know, it's like that thorough quote, most men live lives of quiet desperation. Yeah. And that is so fucking true. And unless you find something that is satisfying and something that elevates you, something that with these experiences you gain insight as to why you think and what you think and what is good about these experiences with other human beings. And if you don't, you just become this fever -minded capitalist where you just are constantly chasing numbers because it's rewarded by society, that external validation that you get from driving a Mercedes, that thing that you get from having a nice house where people drive by and go, look at that car, so else.

2:20:11Yeah, it's that someone you don't even know. Yeah. Like that's important to you with that person things. Sure. And that's what a lot of people like, right? They like to wear jewelry and look flashy. So when they show up, everybody goes, wow, look at him, look at her, look at them. Wow, they got the thing. They got those sneakers that I can't buy. They got that fucking watch that I can't wear. Look at those glasses, those are expensive. We live in this bizarre society where that is rewarded or at least highlighted so often in so many people's lives. That's what you're seeing. It's like how they sell things in billboards and on commercials.

2:20:50And we don't realize that this is not going to bring you the joy that you're looking for. Or you get that short term fix, but it evaporates instantly. And it's like you constantly chasing the dragon. Well, that's the thing. I was reading about this Russian oligarch that they confiscated his yachts. He's got this one yacht. That's fucking insane. They confiscated it. Now that he's got this second yacht that's just as preposterous, maybe even more so, that operates on massive batteries. So it can literally drive as silent as a Tesla. That's fucking hundreds of feet long. And that world that you get into, of constantly keeping up with the Joneses and all the other people.

2:21:35It's like it never ends. It never ends. You get to the highest levels of it all and it never ends. It's a series of false summits. I've arrived. Oh, wait a minute. No, I haven't. That's a great way to put it. A series of false summits. It's all illusions. It's all mirage. Yeah. And then one day he's dead. That's it. And then all the people around him, that guy was a fucking asshole. And that's a fucking disaster to die a multibillionaire who was a fucking asshole. Everybody hated it. It's so strange. It's so much wasted potential. Yeah, but there's so many people that are just chasing it. I saw this image of Rupert Murdoch with his wife.

2:22:19And he was on the beach. And he literally looks like an alien. He's just like these bones and tissue and fat. And he's with this woman. And they were supposed to get married and it didn't work out. But one of the things he was saying, he's in his 90s. I don't know which wife he's on, right? But he was saying that I'm looking forward to spending the second half of my life with her. Like, hey bro, what do you know that I don't know? You got about a month left. You know, I mean, if everything goes great, you might have eight years. If everything goes great, but no one thinks about that while you're in the middle of it.

2:23:04All you're thinking about is keeping that fucking game going, that thing that's gotten you, all those accolades, that thing that's gotten you, all those, that respect. And it's just numbers. It's dopamine hits. It's like checking your social media forever for the end of time, checking the likes on your fucking Instagram post to the end of time. It's like it's empty. And that's the path that so many people are on. You know, I just don't understand it. I'll never understand it, but I get it. You know, I get how you get sucked into that path. Yeah, I totally understand the mechanism. The mechanism.

2:23:44Yeah. And it's just like it's like it hijacks the human reward systems of you being like the leader of the tribe. But the leader of the tribe used to be the wise old warrior who had made the mistakes and proven his character and his metal and combat and life and had wisdom to impart on the others, and could lead the tribe in a way that it could help these people and protect them. That just doesn't exist anymore. And we, it's been hijacked by this system of monetary gain. It's fucking weird. And obviously it's very easy for me to say, as someone who gets external validation and someone who makes money, it's easy for me to say, because I've sort of removed myself from the hunger of that.

2:24:29In a way, so I can go, oh, okay, I see what this is. Even though I've never been very motivated by money, I've certainly pursued it, but it's also not been anything that meant the most to me. Money's freedom. Yeah. That's the way I look at it. Yes. It's like it, it opens options. Yeah. But like money for the sake of money, like forget it. It can allow you to pursue things that make you happy. But you have to know what it is and it's not being taught. You know, think about the things that are being taught. I mean, perhaps they teach you a little bit in philosophy. But most of the time, if you're trying to get an education, you try to get an education to get a job.

2:25:14I mean, that's the way it's geared towards now. Yeah. It's not like the ancient Greeks where education was like, here's how you live a good and virtuous life. Yeah. But the people that I've talked to that are the most boring or the ones that are just pursuing money. The people that I've talked to that are the most fascinating are the ones that are trying to figure it out. And they've accumulated a lot of lessons and a lot of information and they can talk about things. And I can get something out of that conversation. Like I can go, oh, I see how this guy thinks. Oh, I see how he got there. Life's so profoundly weird, but it's just so cool.

2:25:50It's very cool. You know? Or it sucks. Depending on where you are and what you're stuck in. You know, and some of it is beyond your control. Some of it is determinism. Some of it is your environment. Some of it is a shitty role of the dice and you're working in a coal -balt mine in a Congo. There's a lot of that to it. But in some people, they transcend that. They figure their way out of that. And it's the hardest journey. Yeah, it's like the money thing. There's been a couple of occasions where I've had people reach out to me, I don't know, 20 years ago. A friend of mine from the music days was like, hey, there's this Nirvana record that came out.

2:26:35It's like a collection of B -sides and bits and pieces that I guess the label put out to make some money. And they're like, hey, you play on a couple of songs. You probably owed some money. And I'm like, I started thinking about it. And I'm like, hire an attorney. Like, what, sue the label, sue the band? And like, no. Right. For money that I'm sure is not life -changing. Even if it was, the process just made me so tired that it was right. More recently, something similar happened with SoundGarden. Like, someone close to the band said, hey, there's these SoundGarden box sets that are out. And you play on a couple of the songs.

2:27:17Like, you're probably owed some money. And the same thing is like, no. I'm not even going to start down that path. Yeah, because even if it did make you money, it would probably rob you of some happiness. Oh, just let it go. It's like, yeah. It's like, yeah. I mean, I guess it kind of sucks, like whoever, like the bean counters at the label or like, fuck that guy. You know, but, okay. Yeah. You know, that's fine. I'll be all right. You got something from that no matter what. You can't put it in a bank account, but it's what you got from that is invaluable. It's like, you were there. You have that it changed you as a person.

2:28:04Yeah, it's like that experience. Yeah, it's a, I mean, at this point, it's not a huge component of who I am, but it was definitely necessary steps on this journey.

2:28:18And I'm glad, I'm so glad things turned out the way they did. You know, like I never look back and go, I wish, you know, I was this like rich rock guy. And on so many levels, I'm glad that I didn't. A lot of those guys are miserable. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know a few. I know a few, too. Yeah, yeah. That's the saddest thing in the world. Because when you meet a miserable success, even rock stars, even someone who's an artist, right? And for so many of them, they're only happy when they're on top. And it's not even necessarily happy. It's like euphoria. There's like a thing about it. Like, oh, my God, I'm the fucking man.

2:28:58You know, look at me. I got the long hair and the fucking guitar. And everybody loves me. And it's just, yeah, it's almost a trap. It's almost like a gilded cage that you're a part of. Look at me. Yeah, it would be cool to have that financial security and then do something totally different. Right. Yeah. It's also a trap and, you know, the trap of fame. It's hard to know people. It's hard to get to know people. Because everybody's approaching you in a very alien way. I mean, that was when I was young and obviously not on that huge level. But that was kind of when I got fired from SoundGarden, that was kind of part of the crisis where I was like, it was easy to put on the identity of like, being the bass player for SoundGarden, you know?

2:29:57And like, I was like the de facto cool guy. Sure. And like a conversation with someone at dinner, what do you do? I'm the bass player for SoundGarden. You know, like women with show interest. And I, you know, especially being like a painfully shy young man, that was awesome. You know, but then it was like, when I did have that taken away, and it did knock me for a loop for a bit, but it also helped me recognize like, oh, I should just focus on Jason the dude. You know, not Jason the bass player for SoundGarden. Right. And that's kind of, that was kind of the slap in the face that kind of brought me around.

2:30:39But you had to go through that. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the thing about going through something that sucks. Like when you get on the other end of it and you achieve equilibrium, you go, okay, it was actually probably good for me. Oh. I, I pull hard at Lou believe I came out the other end better on every level. And like, my, I'm happier now at 55 than I've ever been in my entire life. And each year gets better, you know. That's success. Yeah. So yeah, exactly. That's the way I look at it. Yeah. Why did you want to do this? Do what? This podcast. I'm going to be honest. To give my R2A K size to oxygen.

2:31:20You're the race to Alaska. Oh, okay. But also, you know, I'm a fan. I think the first podcast I listened to you was the one you did with James from Metallica. Oh, that was great. The beekeeping? Yeah. So cool. Yeah, he's very cool. He's an interesting guy. Yeah, I knew him a little bit back in the day, but yeah, the beekeeping stuff was fascinating. Yeah. I got connected to him through my friend Jim Brewer. Jim Brewer, who's a long time, he's been my friend for a year. The comedian. Yeah, yeah. He opens from Metallica. Okay. Which is hilarious, because he's a giant Metallica fan. And he doesn't need to do that.

2:32:00And I think they just offered it to him because they're friends with him. And like, he decided that would be a fun thing to do. And since he's such a Metallica fan, he speaks to those people. It's not like just a regular comedian opening for a band they're not interested in and the crowd doesn't engage. He talks about Metallica and he has material. And Jim is one of the most prolific and interesting guys that I know in terms of like his stand up. Like he can just, Jim can, like something can happen in the news today. And Jim can go on stage and do like 10 minutes on it and just rant and rave. And he's such a fucking cartoonish character.

2:32:42He's so funny. So watching him open from Metallica is a fucking hoot. It's so hilarious because he's in his element and he's also a brilliant comedian and just such a character. And so he reached out to me. He's like, hey man, you should have James Halffield on. He's fucking awesome. Fucking big, great podcast. And I was like, let's do it. Let's do it. You know, so having him almost pretty cool. Yeah. So that was my gateway to your show. And yeah, put the hooks in me. It's like, okay, this is good. Well, thanks man. I appreciate it. I'm glad we did this too. Yeah, me too. So let's tell everybody about your site.

2:33:15So maybe we can get that goal. Oh, I mean, we already talked about it. Well, how do I get to it? Like, what is, what's the website? So the website's supernaudaloid .com? Supernaudaloid. Yeah, one word. So super. So it's a play on Black Sabbath, supernaud. Right. But the notaloid is like the prehistoric marine creature. So what is it? It's like a squid with a shell. Oh, okay. Supernaudaloid, Race to Alaska, 2023. Yep. Nice. Okay, so supernaudaloid .com. And the link to the GoFundMe is up there as well. Yeah, down the page. Are you going to document this at all on either social media or on YouTube or anything like that?

2:34:00So Barrett has a buddy who's a documentary filmmaker who he's going to do some stuff on it. So maybe if like enough people kick in like 5 or 10 bucks, we actually pay Tad to do a documentary because he's a professional. He's not an amateur. So it's going to cost him money to have it done right. But Tad's interested in doing it. I think he just needs to be remunerated properly in order to complete the project. But yeah, that's been talked about and it may happen. Well, maybe we can make it happen. So the other other thing that I would say to you is I think you should write a book. So I can tell a story about my brush with the literary world if you want.

2:34:53Okay, sure. So I actually, I was at this juncture, another juncture basically before I went to grad school. And I was like, maybe I should write a book. Maybe it's time or whatever. And actually, I got an agent and I wrote a book proposal. I actually wrote the proposal when I was in Buenos Aires. And I remember I was sitting in this cafe in Buenos Aires so it's like winter time down there. And it's pouring down rain. And there's like water leaking from the roof. And there's pots and pans around the cafe, like catching the rain water. And on my laptop, and I remember finishing the proposal and it's like, cool.

2:35:39So when I get back to the States, I'll meet with the agent. And like, there was so many parallels. I'm sure you've been in that world too with the literary world, like the business side of it. And with that in the music world. So this agent's promising me the world, like the classic music business thing. You boys are going to be bigger than Ledset. You know, kind of thing. Yeah. And I'm taking it with a grain of salt. I'm like, okay, I'm being pretty moderate about the whole thing. So I finished the proposal, and I thought it was decent. You know, gave it to him. And then I got another meeting with him and some other dude.

2:36:25And they're like, stands, you know, kind of making these radical suggestions as far as like changing the thrust of the narrative and things like that. And I'd be open to like tweaking it, but like, you know, if it's my book, it's going to be my vision. You know, like any creative project. And then they started suggesting like a co -writer, which is this code for a ghost writer. And it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm not himming way, but I think I can put some sentences together according to other people who told me that who know these things. And so basically I got accepted to grad school and I got a Tillman scholarship that paid for grad school.

2:37:10And it's like, okay, I'm going to grad school and put the book on the back burner. But it'll probably happen someday. I would suggest that you just write it. Yeah. And then try to sell it. I've had other people suggest that as well. Yeah, I think that's the only way to do it. I try to do it the other way a long time ago. And I had a disastrous, I wound up giving the money back. I just had a couple of conversations with them. I don't want to do it like this. Yeah. No, done. Yeah, it was just wasn't what I wanted to do. You know, what I wanted to do was just write what I was thinking. A lot of stuff.

2:37:45And they had this very specific idea that they had a package that they wanted to fit into. It was totally similar to my experience. Yeah, I mean, that's what they do. You know, it's like the scorpion and the frog, right? It's in my nature. Yeah, it's just what they do. Yeah. Well, listen brother, I really appreciate it. Man, I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. And good luck and don't fall in the water. Have a good time doing that. Yeah, we'll be very safe. Like I was reading the safety regulations and it's like, this isn't very hippy -dippy. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

2:38:20Do you have any social media or anything like that? Do you tell people about? Just that. And I created the site myself. It's my first foray into that world at all. It looks professional. It's like one page. That's all you need. That's all you need. I did design the Super Nautiloid logo, which I'm kind of proud of. Cool. It's like, I don't know if you're familiar with Black Sabbath volume 4. Sure. Yeah, my favorite Sabbath record. One of my favorite records. So it's a no -mage to that, obviously. So I kind of mixed in like Sabbath and maritime and yeah. Cool. All right. Well, again, I really enjoyed this and thanks.

2:38:57Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. You're welcome, mate. I enjoyed it very much. Cool. Thanks everybody. Bye.

2:39:10Bye.