#1970 - Bill Ottman

27:20No, you know, you're not protecting democracy by stopping free speech. There's no checks and balances in place if something turns out to be accurate. Where then whoever put out that disinformation initially, like if someone posts something, they say, they'll stop that mass actually don't work. The CDC doesn't get punished. Which is kind of fucking crazy. Because if they're the ones that are setting these guidelines and these guidelines turn out to be inaccurate and people get banned off of social media for arguing with these guidelines, there's no repercussions. There's nothing... You know, these people are fucked and there's no recourse.

28:10Right. Yeah, actually that's the policy that we do need. We need the policy for social networks and media companies to, you know, apologize and fix their wrongs. Yeah. And also, like, why wouldn't the CDC be punished then? Or shouldn't they be banned? Or shouldn't they be like, have a strike against them? But they're not. It's like... It's really frustrating because you're dealing with narratives that are oftentimes 100 % propaganda. And they're not backed by science. It's just like some things that people say. Like, Rachel Maddow was on television telling everybody that this vaccine stops the virus in his tracks.

28:50If you get vaccinated, the virus can no longer affect you. It can't affect anyone else. It stops and we can get out of this thing. Well, that's not fucking true at all. And that person... There was no repercussion. Other than public mockery, which continues this day, where, you know, whenever she posts something, people post that video. What about this stupid? And, you know, there's nothing other than that. I know. They're not even inviting the other side on to correct the issues. They're certainly not, you know, correcting their errors. And, you know, it's just not that hard to admit you're wrong.

29:24I don't know. Maybe it is hard for... But people get into their own egos and they just can't handle it. Well, there's people that are beyond reproach. And that's the problem, or organizations, that, you know, like, one of the things that's fascinating about Twitter now is they fact -check the Biden administration. So the Biden administration put out some tweets that were 100 % horseshit and then underneath it, Twitter fact -checked them so they deleted the tweets, which is glorious. Like, that's amazing. And that's never happened before. Yep. Community notes is my favorite feature on Twitter by far.

29:55It keeps everybody in check. It has a process for kind of vetting information, surfacing it to the top, you know, showing the better idea to the bad idea. And actually, their community note stuff is all open source. It was a little bit disappointing though when they open source the algorithm the other day. Open source the algorithm. Which, step in the right direction. I'm not trying to attack. But, you know, what we learned basically is that it's not the live algorithm. It's an algorithm. What do you mean? So it's not the production algorithm. At least from what we can tell, because you saw what happened with Substack.

30:32So has that been reversed? I think it has. Yeah, I don't, I wouldn't need to confirm. I think that the ability to engage with those posts got changed back. But then like, Taiyubi's post, you can even search them. And, but the point being is that, and I submitted a comment on their GitHub where this algorithm exists. It's like, well, if this is the algorithm, why wasn't the substack blocking showing up in the algorithm? The other day. I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't there. So clearly there's some sort of a link blacklist. And, you know, Twitter did say that this isn't the whole algorithm and they're going to be releasing more over time.

31:15But the problem is we should have seen something change in that when all the substack blocking went down. So how many users does minds have now? We are five million. Oh, that's great. We actually had to take a little haircut because we, you know, and we're trying to be as honest as possible because, oh, basically, we had been counting that people who, you know, fail. Data is hard. And so people who had like tried to sign up were in our data showing as signed up. So, you know, back, backed it up a little bit. But the point being we don't use any closed source proprietary analytics tools. So like the temptation when you're running a startup trying to create an app is to just go to the, you know, Silicon Valley display case of Google analytics and customer .io and all these surveillance tools.

32:17And they're analytics tools that are very powerful and can give you very precise data about what's going on. But we have refused to use any of those tools because when you put Google analytics on your website, you are becoming Google. You are now part of Google's tentacles. And you're basically handing over all your, that user data to Google. And we just like our whole foundation has been fully open source and just don't take shortcuts. And so we're got, like, our growth path is, is healthy. It's happening. We're continually growing. But we're not going to, I don't care about the pace of growth as much as the quality.

33:06And so, you know, we built a whole day, like we do machine learning. We're starting to do AI, but we're doing it in an open source way. So like in the AI wars right now, you have like open, quote unquote, open AI, which isn't, you know, it's barely open. They don't share much of what's going on. And they shroud that in some sort of like, oh, we're, you know, we need to protect you and we need to not let this get out of control. Which maybe there's an element of truth to that. But then there's a whole other part of the AI world, like with stable diffusion and stability. And we're all, it's all open source.

33:39And it's being done in the open and everybody has access because, you know, do you, as you see all this AI stuff coming about you, do you think that you should, how do you feel about that? Do you think that you should be compensated in a way? Do you have any, like you mentioned copyright? Do you have any issues with it? No. I mean, it is what it is. There's no stopping that. And I saw it a long time ago because this company from Canada was the first one to take all of, I mean, they essentially got a database of all my audio recordings, which is fucking thousands of them. So there's so many hours of me talking that they could easily have me saying a bunch of things.

34:29And so they put together like, just this recording of me saying a bunch of things that I've never said. And me talking about some subjects and doing these things. And it was a conversation that I never had. And then they did one with me doing a podcast with Steve Jobs, which is wild. And now there's a new one with me doing a podcast with Sam Altman. And it's a full podcast. I listened to the beginning of that one. I think they did it tastefully because they made it very clear that it's not you. Yes. It's a proof of concept. It's like they're showing that this is something that can be done. And there's no flavor to it, which is interesting.

35:06Like if you and I have an conversation, it's, there's fun. There's like, there's laughing. There's, you know, there's like, there's human interaction. This was just like question answer. And then you would be like, oh, well, that's interesting. Yeah. And that just kept happening. You can tell. Yeah. Yeah. You can kind of tell. But for now, for now, I mean, they'll be able to sort of code your personality in the future and sort of gauge your, and maybe even have some, you know, some weird interactions that are just silly, that you could sort of program in that make it look like personality and make it look like.

35:47And you can do that now. You can prompt more like casual attitudes, but I think that, okay, so maybe you don't care. And that's good. And also, they don't care. It's just that it is what it is. Right. Like would I rather it not exist? Of course. Of course. I mean, I just, I'm getting sent these things where I'm doing these ads for products that I've never used. And I never talked about. And, you know, these companies. And we tried to chase one of them down. It was like, I think it was like a testosterone booster or something like that. But when you do go down this rabbit hole legally, when you sick a lawyer on it, they're like, Jesus Christ, like there's a web, like there's, there's shell companies, shell corporations.

36:33It's very difficult to find. It's all overseas, very difficult to find who's actually making this and how they would profit off of it. Yeah. When we talk about AI, like displacing work on a mass scale, I think that we do have to have a conversation about these companies and where they're getting all their data. And, you know, who's getting compensated? So I actually prompted chat, GPT, and asked it, you know, do you have the rights to the data that you're using? And it said, no, it said that we do not have access or rights to all of the data that we're using. And that, you know, that could be come more of a concern over time.

37:15I posted this. And so what does that mean? You know, because what are they doing? They're scraping the world's use of language, all the data, all the imagery, everything. And so when we talk about open AI becoming, you know, worth hundreds of billions of dollars probably, fastest growing app in the history of the world, it got to 100 million, like way faster than everybody, doing massive, you know, 10 billion dollar deal with Microsoft, they're profiting off of the world's data. Right. So I'm not saying that that's not okay at all, but I mean, if something that I created that I didn't give them permission to use is get, you know, if they're profiting off of that, basically, I think there's a world where some type of UBI that, but the companies pay people.

38:11So like we split revenue with our users. We do like crazy rev share programs because our whole thing is like, if you bring energy to this network, like get paid. So how does that work? Like when you say revenue, like what kind of revenue we're talking about and like where's revenue coming from? So we have mines plus, mines pro, similar in functionality to like Twitter blue, but we do, you get more reach, more exposure, verified, and more video upload, HD. And you pay monthly. Yeah, you pay monthly. Yeah, you know, mines plus like seven bucks, mines pros more, but mines pros 50 a month. 50? Yeah.

38:53That's like, dude, I think people want to support platforms that they care about. What do you get for 50 years a month? You just get a lot more video. Dude, video is so expensive. Right. Because you have to put it on the screen. And it's coding and you have to transcode into like every version in its mother. We have free users who are actually costing us like, I shouldn't even say this because, but because they're just uploading video all day and it's getting no traffic. So it's like they're costing us lots of money. But it's okay. That's that we want free video upload. But like, you know, YouTube for like the amount that they're paying, like they were losing money forever because of that.

39:30Right. So the video is killer, but you know, basically, and then we also have a non surveillance native ad network where you can boost your posts. And so you can people can pay for that. But what we do is that, well, so one, if you serve boost on your page, we give you, we split it with you. And we may even go deeper and give people more than half for the ads that they're serving. And then additionally, if you get someone to buy a membership, you get half. Is anyone, that's cool forever. Is anyone making a living off of minds? There are some. Yeah. So they, that's their job as they post on minds.

40:05Yep. Wow. How much money? Well, one of them. I mean, you know, they're, you know, they're making thousands of dollars a month. So, you know, it's, it's money. It's real money. Yeah. But that, you know, if, think of if you're doing it in a traditional business way, like we're going to build a sales force. And bring on a bunch of sales reps and send them out into the world and help sell our product and give them a commission. You know, maybe typically a company, if they're trying to do a sales, a sales force, you know, they may, maybe 20 % commission, maybe. 10 to 20 % commission if you sell something.

40:39We're just like, well, I don't really want to manually hire everybody. Like why wouldn't we just offer this crazy commission to our whole community? Yeah. And then because we are community owned. So our code is owned by everybody. Everybody owns their content. We're actually, we, we just reopened our stocks. You can buy our stock on WeFunder right now. We want to be owned by the world.

41:11So, yeah. So it's, it's like a distributed sales force. But, you know, because like not everybody's a big creator. So, you know, only some people can make a ton of money serving ads on their page. There's only a certain type of people that, that's relevant to, you know, a couple, a normal person on social media might be able to make, you know, a dollar, a couple dollars a month, they get a few views. But the reason the commission program matters is because everybody has a network. Everybody has friends. Everybody, everybody can be a, you know, have boots on the ground and go often do work. And, and, and sell stuff.

41:50So, you know, if you sell a thousand dollar ad deal on mine's take 500. Like, and, and that's real incentive. We want to like really like go far beyond. So, you know, here's a tip for Elon and Elon, you know, would love to, to collaborate with you. But he should have like a thousand dollar a month option. People would pay. People want Twitter to win. And... What would you get for a thousand bucks a month? Dude, people pay. What's worth 12 grand a year? I mean, if you got, you could bake in advertising. You could bake in a lot of advertising. So, you're, you get a lot more reach. You could get access to the Twitter team.

42:32You know, there's stuff that people will pay for. People want to grow on social media. Because, you know, reach is influence. Right, but wouldn't that be a problem? You're, you're only allowing that reach for people that have a lot of money. No, it's not. They're gonna forward a thousand bucks a month. Yeah, but they're already selling ads. You can already do that. What's the difference? If you just bake it into a subscription. So, how does it work? Because I've never bought an ad on those things. Like, just click ad. Give credit cards. Say how many, you know, how much you want to spend per day.

43:05How long you want it to go. And it just shows up in people's feeds. Yeah. Because I always wonder, like, why is this in my feed? Because for a long time, it wasn't. And then now you do see these paid ads. Yeah, the promoted post. And, you know, the people who do it on minds are much less like annoying advertisers. And more so, just artists and people trying to get the word out about their stuff. Yeah. And so, yeah. What's your typical user base? Like, how are you attracting people other than, like, coming on a podcast and talking about it? People just find us organically looking for alternatives to big tech.

43:45I mean, people are sick of this shit. This is insane. Everything has gotten totally out of hand. And it's just unapologetic, like, with Facebook and Google, you know, they're just not, they're not leveling with everybody. Like, okay. So, we understand that there's horrible content on the internet. Like, let's deal with this and not a road frame of speech. And like, I would love to see, you know, Sundar Pashai or Zuckerberg or, you know, Tim Cook, like, have more of a balanced conversation about this. But it just seems like whenever they talk about it, it's like, it's like, they're posturing. It doesn't feel real.

44:25And like, they're really acknowledging, even like, the, the academic conversation with regards to censorship. Because the academics are saying that censorship causes increase radicalization. So, what's going on here? Yeah. What, what are the things could be done to sort of level the playing field? I mean, open sourcing is foundation number one. Like, everyone's afraid, you know, look, their, companies will say, oh, we couldn't share our secret, our secret sauce, you know, that's what, that's what makes us competitive. But you, it's just, it's just really not true. Like, you can use software licenses as well that restrict people.

45:22So, you can still be transparent. Like, for instance, there's this, there's this really cool app called Uniswap, which is a decentralized protocol for crypto. So, you can swap tokens with the, and there's no intermediary. And they used a time delayed GPL. GPL is general public license, one of the most famous free software licenses. But they basically said, look, we want, we need to be transparent. No one takes anything in crypto seriously unless it's transparent and audited. So, we're going to make it so that we're showing you all the code. You can make sure we're not spying on you, doing anything sketchy.

45:59But if you're a commercial entity, you cannot fork our code and compete with us for the next two years. So, they basically were giving themselves a head start. The license that we use is the GPL V3, which says that anyone can do whatever they can, and people do. There are other versions of mine around the world, people running it and having their own social network. But if they make changes, they have to share those changes with the world. So, it's referred to as copy left in kind of the copyright world. It's basically that, yeah, you have to, it's sort of a pay it forward. I borrowed from you.

46:36I'm going to use that to build my business. Yeah, I'm going to sell it. I'm going to make a ton of money. But, you know, the development that I did, I also have to share. And there's many others. I mean, there's even licenses that are way more restrictive, but still provide the transparency. There's ones that are just read only. Like, listen, you can read this and see it, but you cannot touch it. You know, that would be a step in the right direction for Facebook. But, and the thing is that they know about this power dynamic. Because they do create tons of open source tools. Like react, Facebook created react, which is like one of the most popular JavaScript frameworks.

47:14And, you know, Angular was made by Google. And tons of databases and backend tools. These big tech companies do contribute a ton to open source. But they only do it on the stuff that, you know, are developer tools. Because they know that the developers will only use their stuff if it's open source. Developers are never going to use something that they don't have control over. So, it's like this very intentional game that they're playing. Their main apps, they do not, they're not transparent about it all. But they know that they need the developer energy. So, you know, I think that they should just do it.

47:53And the great, even though the Twitter algorithm's not, you know, very yet. But I think that Elon is, when I saw that happening, I would just say, finally. You know, it's like one of the big guys dipped their toe in the water. But it really has to be someone like Elon, who's eccentric and insanely wealthy. Who's willing to go out in a limb for $44 billion in overpay for a company. And then sort of like fucking throw it upside down. But it's, you know, it's, it's working. It's working. And it's, you know, besides all the people that like publicly decry that they were done, like that's not real.

48:34Like the reality is like that's not really that important. The real important stuff is the mass amounts of humans that are constantly sharing information. And that seems to have gone up. Yeah, I think that Elon also just changed the way that the billionaires act. Like before him, you know, who's another billionaire that shit posts memes? Nobody. I mean, just, but that had, don't underestimate, and I know you don't. But the fact that he did that, I think it sort of paves the way for other people up on his level to start being more real. You think so? I hope so. I think most of them are cowards.

49:19And they just don't have the courage to like be that wild. And just really post things they think are funny. Like when he put, for me, my favorite one ever was the Bill Gates one. When he posted the photo of Bill Gates next to a pregnant man emoji. And it's like, if you ever want to lose a bone, a real fast. And he has this specific beef with Bill Gates because he's shorting Tesla stock. Yeah. But yeah, exactly. I mean, they should. It's good for people like real things. People don't like fake things. Like they should, even if they were being sketchy and like manipulative about it. Like they should be acting real because that's what people like.

49:57I saw Bezos tweeting, Bezos, I think he wants to come out of his shell. He was tweeting some like a Barry Weiss article, which was weird. Interesting. You know, because Amazon, we just ditched Amazon. We moved our whole operation over to Oracle because they're more committed to free speech. And, you know, does Amazon sensor? I mean, they ban parlor. Oh, did that? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And they have much worse terms, which like kind of spell out. What was their justification for banning parlor? Did they make a statement? It was all around the Jan 6 stuff. And, you know, extremism type reasons.

50:43And meanwhile, all that content is on Facebook. And on other, certainly on other platforms that were on AWS. So do you think that that's just sort of like a PR move to ban parlor? Partially. I don't know all the specifics of, you know, the back and forth between them. And, you know, it's, I don't know if they were given warning or the ability. But the thing is, even if they were, it's like what Amazon would have been at, you know, take down this content or you're going to, or you're going to have to leave. You know, that would be violating what they were trying to do with free speech, which, you know, because there's a group of companies now that are like pro free speech platforms, which is our gaining dominance.

51:29It's awesome. You know, you've got rumble, you've got parlor, you've got mines, you've got, you know, there's a bunch of them. And, but unfortunately, the waters get muddied because, you know, rumble uses Google Analytics. They are totally closed source. They don't, so they're doing some of the speech stuff right, which is absolutely essential. And so again, it's a huge step in the right direction. I actually had a back and forth with Chris, their CEO. And he said that he would be open to some, some open source stuff, except he's been icing me on a couple of emails recently. So, um, it's probably busy though.

52:06Oh, he's very busy. Um, but I think that this open source issue, like needs to be honed on. We can't, we can't just let the next wave of free speech companies be doing all the same shit that Big Tech was doing on the technological end. We can't just let them keep doing the surveillance, keep doing the secrecy. It's not, we're not moving forward if that is where we ultimately end up. So, but what I'm hoping, so we were core developers at, well, we contributed a, a, a, what's called a nip, which is a Noster Improvement proposal, which is the framework which could enable a site like Twitter or rumble or any of them to integrate Noster like we do.

52:55So, you don't have to be fully decentralized, but you can, you can integrate nip 26, which is delegated event signing so that your users have an escape patch. And that, that's really all people want. People are going to keep using Twitter just because of fully decentralized option exists. Doesn't mean people are going to stop using Twitter. And I feel like that's kind of what Elon has in his head, because he even, Noster was on the, remember when, um, like a couple months ago, Twitter came out with this policy like we're banning links to Instagram, Facebook, and mastodon. And then they, they rolled it back.

53:32Do you remember that? I don't. So they did do that. And people were bugging out like, of course. And so they rolled back the policy that said, okay, we're not going to do that. Noster was actually on that list. So, so they're aware of, of this system. But I think that they're, they're thinking about it the wrong way because the fully decent, like there's a, um, a fully pure Noster client called Dommis, which is super nice. Um, and it is, it's a great option. But, you know, fully decentralized options don't have a ton of functionality. You know, they don't have the notifications. They don't have a lot of the discoverability of stuff.

54:10There's, there's serious limitations with fully decentralized stuff that's never going to be able to compete with more of like a centralized option where you can do all this fancy, uh, data processing and whatnot. So I think that this, like this idea that we need to push out, do decentralized competitors is really just like the wrong state. Like if Elon repeatedly says like, we need to maximize public trust. And I do believe that he believes that and wants that. And that's why he's trying to be more transparent. But maximizing public trust is about, you know, give people their own keys. And then, you know, that's going to hold the company accountable.

54:51And then if, you know, Twitter messes around, they can go pop over someone else. But they don't lose all their stuff. But how would you possibly move Twitter stuff to some other network though? Because if they, like if you, uh, like say, let's, let's say if someone did something like that. And you had all your posts on Twitter. You've been on Twitter since 2009. And you know, mine's, uh, it gives you the ability to port your shit over to there. How the fuck would you ever wind up doing that? I mean, if it gets integrated, then all the posts can just be signed. And then if it gets integrated. Yeah, it seems like that would be very beneficial to mines, but not very beneficial to Twitter.

55:35Because at the end of the day, Twitter is still a company. But, but think about the, we're a company. I mean, and we don't, but it would be beneficial to you. You're far smaller. Right. How many users does Twitter have? Oh, of course. Hundreds of millions, right? Right. But we, actually, there were people on our team who asked the same question to our team. Why would we give people the ability, you know, why would we let people, you know, they're just going to go take their mind stuff and go somewhere else. So it's not like just us. It's not basically. Right. But you're a very small company relatively speaking.

56:13Like when you first came on the podcast, I think you had two million. Is that what it was somewhere around that? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. And now you're more than double that. You're five million. But relatively speaking, when people start talking about social media networks, minds does not get into the conversation. It's a mass, you know, distributor of information. Right. And, you know, now rumble is. Yeah. And you know why? They spend a lot of money. Oh, God, they've spent so they came to me with a fucking shit. Same thing happening with Substack. They're spending millions of dollars bringing over top talent.

56:48It's not sustainable. So, but now I wonder about it. I hope. I mean, it's just. I'm like, how much do you guys spend? It's a lot of fucking money. Right. And. Because they have Stephen Crowder on there. They have Russell Brand. They have all these people that I know they had to fork up some serious cash. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think that they're well -bankrolled. That's for sure. Yeah. And it also seems to be working in terms of like just generating more publicity and users. And I know there was something that was on rumble recently. I forget what the video was, but it was over two million views.

57:25I was like, that's significant. Yeah. No, it's great. I mean, it's great for these options. It's very validate. Regardless. See, I'm in it for the actual speech. I want them to succeed. I want that to happen. So, you know, I just. Just while it's in my head because I forgot to bring it up before about Substack. So Elon actually accused them of stealing Twitter data. And that was part of his justification for blocking them. How did they steal Twitter data? So, I mean, that's a very strong word that he used. And I don't know the details, but what I know is that Substack is largely powered by Twitter's API.

58:10Which means, you know, API application programming interface. It's basically a developer tool set so that websites can integrate with API Twitter. You see, you see, log in with Facebook, log in with Twitter. You have tweets embedded in Substack. The API is how you facilitate that. And Twitter has been locking down its API. Because it's been quite frankly probably costing them millions of dollars. Because, you know, when Substack makes an API call to Twitter, that costs Twitter money. So, Elon's perspective is, okay, we're hemorrhaging money. I'm speculating. I don't want to speak, put words into his mouth.

58:49But I think that he's locking down the API because it's costing them so much money to be supporting all these websites that aren't paying them. So, you know, Substack, the authentication and sign up uses Twitter, the social graph and recommendations uses Twitter. So, Elon's tweets said that, you know, they've been trying, they've basically been abusing our API to bootstrap their own social network. And because Substack just came out with a social feed called notes. Right. And how does that work? It's just a newsfeed. Can you show me that? I want to see what it looks like. What Substack notes. Because I just heard about this.

59:27I don't want to stay in this table. Oh, it's good to stay in there. It's good. It gives it life. This is a relatively new table. The old one we had the old studio is covered in stains. Introducing Substack notes, unlocking the power of the subscription network. And so, what is this? So, there's a screenshot down there. You have to sign in. No, just to continue. Yeah, there it is. Okay. So, it just a newsfeed. So, it looks exactly like Twitter. Right. Literally. It has a heart. It has comments. And it has some sort of a repost. But it's not a square. It's a circle. It's basically a copy of Twitter.

1:00:07Just like the truth social network is, right? Yeah. And so, to dig into that a little deeper, like, so, you know Mark and Dresan. I love that guy. I love that dude. I mean, he's super. Yeah, he's one of the most legendary tech investors of all time. He's so smart. And he's so smart. And so, he is a, he owns, I don't know, what percentage of Substack, but Dresan Horowitz is one of Substacks' primary funders. Okay. And Dresan Horowitz also put hundreds of millions into the Twitter deal. So, there's an Elon and Dresan are probably super tight. And so, what's happening in another tweet, Elon had someone that said, you should buy Substack and Elon responded, yeah, maybe I will.

1:00:55And this was like two months ago. And so, they've been pursuing, it seems as though they've been in negotiation for Twitter to actually buy Substack. I mean, Elon said it. And he's also super tight with Mark and Dresan. And so, probably Substack thinks it has a certain valuation. Elon wants to get it for less and was trying to say, listen, you are reliant on us. You're helping you grow and then I'm thinking about buying you. And I'm thinking about buying you. It's cost me more money the more time that you're doing this. So, what I'm going to do is cut off your API access and show you who's daddy.

1:01:34Right. So, I mean, who knows? Because I don't think that he was out this to censor. And unfortunately, Elon has successfully enraged both mainstream and now independent journalists. Which is not, I don't think he intended for that to happen, but that's what happened. I mean, all of the Substack journalists, that's one of the best places for independent journalism. And now they're all pissed because there was a period of time where their businesses were screwed. Well, not only that, it was the very people that were using Twitter to put out these Twitter pages. So, there were all the emails that showed the collusion between the intelligence agencies and the former heads of Twitter.

1:02:16And they were like, this was the same guys and they were publishing this. Yeah, and like they all thought they were friends. Yeah. Well, as soon as the money got involved, you know, that's where things get weird, right? Yeah. And so, I think it kind of is a corporate negotiation byproduct. It seems like that's kind of what happened. Because I don't think that he intentionally wants to hurt those. What I like about Elon is he will change course. If people respond in a negative way, they don't like it to get upset, he's like, okay, we won't do that. And he publicly said that he would do that. And I like that he does do that.

1:02:56He's flexible in that regard. And he's not completely dogmatic about these ideas. Yeah, he's like doing it live. Yeah, he really is. Fuck it. We'll do it live. He really is, which is kind of interesting. And it's also part of the fun of the chaos of Twitter under him. You know, that you've got this one incredibly intelligent, super -centric guy who happens to be one of the richest people on the earth. And he decided to take over the... And he did it very specifically because he thinks it's a threat to democracy. That having this censorship and having this control over the access to information and the narrative, which is what you're previously were getting.

1:03:39And it's like, we see it with YouTube. We see it with these other social media networks where someone has a problematic opinion. They get shadow banned and ghosted. And their algorithm gets fucked up. Their access to new subscribers gets fucked up. And there's real world consequences. There's also demonetization. Right? The YouTube's got this really sneaky thing that they do, where they just demonetize things. And so you self -sensor because you don't want to get demonetized. And that's not good for anybody. It is an existential threat having social media platforms censored. I mean, that is how humanity is educating itself.

1:04:17Right. But it's also a new thing, right? Because these things didn't exist two decades ago. So now all of a sudden we have this new platform that really should be considered like a utility. And I think your access to it should really be just like your access to the internet. Like if we just decide that someone is problematic and you can't have the internet anymore, holy shit, that would freak people the fuck out. Well, it should freak you the fuck out if you don't have access to YouTube. It should freak you out because that is the primary way where people share video and post video and post their opinions on things.

1:04:53Yeah, it gets hairy too because Twitter is still playing this game with other countries. Which we've basically said, and actually we're dealing with this right now, I'll just call them out. Germany has this horrible piece of legislation called the Network Enforcement Act, which is similar to the California thing I was mentioning. And they want you to take down stuff at their request. And we're just not going to do that. So we've made that decision. And Twitter is doing that for sure. Twitter is doing that.

1:05:27So if India posts something negative about the government, the government could take this down and Twitter will take it. Twitter has these interstitials, like kind of different content policies on different states. And with Pakistan, there's basically a different Twitter in all of these different countries. Is that because it's the only way that can be on in those countries? I mean, that's the argument. But it's the same argument that Google goes through when they're like, should we go to China? We want to go to China. We have this Dragonfly project. Are we going to, let's work on them behind the scenes.

1:05:58What is Dragonfly? It's like Google's, I don't know all the details, but it's their kind of China project. They're their project to get Google accessible in China. And have it be okay with the government. I was a friend with someone who was in executive at Google back in the day. And what she described to me was that if they didn't, and they were in negotiation and doing business with China, and she said, if we don't do this, they're just going to copy it. They're basically just going to rip off Google. And so we're in this battle to either appease them with their rules and have it go over there and have, you know, some things like Tiananmen Square be censored.

1:06:39Or you can't access information about Tiananmen Square. And it's just like, well, it seems to be a situation where we kind of have to do that. Or they're just going to copy Google. Yeah, I don't think that that's just a game that we're not interested in playing. I think that we're just going to stick to the laws that we're required to obey. And if other countries are going, I mean, we've been banned in China. We've been banned in Vietnam. We had a huge wave of like, this was one of our largest, we got like half a million users in like two days from Vietnam. Because there was a revolving door between their government and Facebook.

1:07:19And, you know, the journalists of Vietnam found out and we got this huge wave. And then shortly after Vietnam banned us. But, you know, people still can use VPNs at their own risk there. I just feel like it's a losing battle, constantly catering to all of these different countries and their censorship laws. It feels like just sort of a waste of time. And we can bypass all that with decentralized protocols. But I get it. It's not easy, especially when a company could go bankrupt. And if you lose all your German users, if Twitter gets banned in India, that's a major... We're not dependent on those users.

1:08:04And I appreciate that you're not independent. I think what you do is very important. And I'm glad you're out there. I really am. And I'm glad there's this option. And I'm glad you guys have these like rock -solid ethics in regards to that. It's just, it's very important. And it's a wonder like at scale. If it's like if minds, if we come back and do another podcast in two years and minds now has 50 million or 100 million. Let's make that happen. You're like, what happens then? And I have to be honest. I only got on minds a couple times after you gave me... You know what's funny? You know you're your first time sharing minds?

1:08:43No. It was in like 2009. Or maybe like 2011. And you shared this viral video that was going on in minds of this like quantum levitation disc. I don't know if you've ever seen that. It's like if you look on... If you just search like quantum, you know, superconducting levitation. And you had just seen that. And you know this was way before we knew each other. And you had just shared that. He sure it's me. I'm almost positive. I'm, yeah. I bet it's not. No, I had friends messing with me. They were like, dude, Rogan just shared this thing. I bet it's not. Really? Yeah. I bet it's a fake me. No. I think you got duped.

1:09:26Really? Let's go look at it. Can we find it on your Twitter? Yeah. How would it be me? No, because you just shared a link to a video. You didn't know. You just thought... I just thought you just thought... You shared it on Twitter. Oh, okay. That makes sense. Yeah. No, no. You weren't a user. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But... That makes sense. Yeah. I think. So I shared this thing and this thing originated on minds and then it boosted minds. Mm -hmm. Yeah. It was just like one of those crazy levitation videos where it's just like what the hell is going on. It's magnet is just levitate. Right. Right.

1:10:01Right. That sounds like something I would post. So, like, what is... Do you have the number one post ever on minds? Like how many people does it reach? I mean, yeah. We have posts that have hit probably over a million views. And is it because someone's sharing on other social media networks like I did? Yep. For sure. Yeah. And that's what's so malicious about these algorithms getting clamped down is that... Everyone's in survival mode. Right. And even Twitter doesn't... What we learned from the algorithm is that the links are punished. All links. If you post a link on Twitter, it's getting... It's not getting elevated in the algorithm.

1:10:47And that is because they want to keep people on Twitter. Really? Yeah. And we always speculated this. Because you can just tell. You post in the reach of posts with links is way down. So we have historically have obviously used that. I mean, the problem is that the way that big tech emerged, there was nothing else. There was nothing to throttle them. Right. So now they can just throttle competition by not allowing links to outside sites to be elevated. I'm not saying they don't have the right to do it, but I think that it's just... It's just not helpful for the open web. I think that people need to be able to post links and not get punished for it.

1:11:27Yeah. For sure. I didn't know that that was even a thing. Yep. That's one of the things we learned. Obviously, they're favoring native video, native content. They're favoring Twitter blue, which is again, some of it makes sense. But, you know, don't piss off the journalists. No, it doesn't make sense. It's not smart. But the link thing is really weird. So I could understand encouraging people to post links. But how would you do that? And then I don't... I mean, not encouraging people to post links, but posting it native. I can understand that. You'd want... Just put the whole article on Twitter or just put this on Twitter.

1:12:07Yeah. And it is a better experience, typically, to use the native functions of the app. It's smoother. It looks better. But it's so easy to just say, you know, if I find something interesting on YouTube, oftentimes, I will just say, oh, that's a fascinating video. Let me just post that real quick. And then the problem with that sometimes is it posts it with the clickbait headline, you know, and then people think it's yours. That you're saying that. You know, lips get owned, you know, like that kind of shit. Yeah, one word, two of the words in half. Yeah, so now I'm like, oh, fuck. Well, maybe I should like post it, but put my own thing on it instead of...

1:12:45Right, but like you don't want to have... If you want to share a video from YouTube, you don't... Well, you don't want to have to download the video and then upload it. Like, first of all, you can't do that. You're not supposed to do that. Right. So... The only way to do that is to screen capture it. Yeah. Or get an app that... The river. Downloads. Yeah. Yeah. So, all the sites do that. I mean, we... When we were first starting, we... Because we have like over a million followers on our Facebook pages. And we would drive crazy traffic back in the day. Just posting viral videos and cool articles.

1:13:16And, you know, we had journalists on and we would post their stuff. And we would... So much traffic. Like, you know, millions and millions of users a month hitting the site. And then Facebook was just like, alright. And then boom. And, you know, but we always knew that we didn't want to be... You know, it was a nice to have thing. So, the reason we do what we do is because we didn't want to be relying on them. But it just goes to show how much power they have. I mean, they can literally wipe out jobs and people's livelihoods and companies just overnight. Yeah. That's what happens. Yeah. You know, if you're not favored and you don't play the algorithm game, it's just me...

1:13:54It's so sickening and like worrying about the algorithm. It's like people are just worshiped this thing and you kind of have to for survival. Yeah. Because you're trying to succeed. But then, you know, what are you really spending your time doing? It's an interesting discussion in the stand -up comedy community. Because a lot of comics are trying to gain the algorithm. And you hear these discussions. I was talking to a friend of mine that was telling me about these comics at the seller that we're having this conversation where they were trying to figure out, like, this is what you do to get the algorithm.

1:14:27This is what you do to go viral. This is what you're doing. And this comic, who's like an established comic, is like, this is fucking gross. I don't want to have any part of this. Like, why? Just make the best shit you can make. Like, don't do this. And so then you see people that become sort of captured by this idea. Like, you see, there's some guys that do it where it's like, it's an art form, like Mr. Beast. He's figured out how to do it in a way that's like really kind of fascinating. Because he really knows what words to use, what images to use. And there's an actual science to it. Oh, yeah.

1:15:02He is a weird and interesting guy. Like, watching his interview with Lex, the way that his brain works, it's like, everything is being processed through how does this play to the algorithm. And it was, it's slightly unnerved me a little bit. I think that, you know, he just seemed like, I got this sense, and he seems like a great guy. And like, super smart. And, you know, obviously. But it seems like he felt like, oh, I don't even necessarily know if this is worth my time to even be doing this interview right now. Because I don't know how many views it's going to get. And I don't know like how it's going to play to the out.

1:15:45Because his time is so, he knows how much he can make every second of the day. Spending on a video. And like, so if he's going to go do an interview with another smaller YouTuber, like, that's impacting his, his rev. Right. And I just, I think that's dangerous to let that control the content that you create. It's backwards. Like, you're, like, the comic was saying, it's like, do the thing that you do as, as best as you can possibly do it. Don't make the algorithm, like, I guess you could, if the algorithm is your thing, if that's what you want to be the passion of your, like, I guess maybe some people do love it.

1:16:25But it seems a little bit inverted. It's a little bit inverted, but that's also, you know, he does so much good. And it's so interesting to watch him do the thing. I mean, I get it because like, his content is fantastic. So what he's trying to do is maximize the reach of his content. And so it's just, just clever. Oh, yeah. The, the blind, carrying the blind people. I mean, that was, that, we need more of that. What's wild as he got hate for that. Right. But that was the hate specifically. Who gives a fuck? But it's just funny because you cannot do anything that won't piss someone off. Because people are engaged in recreational outrage.

1:17:09And that's what they're doing. And they're trying to figure out an angle. All this rich guy is doing this thing. And really, he shouldn't even be rich. No one should be rich. And bruh, bruh, bruh. Oh, you're just trying to do this to make yourself look good. There's all these angles that people will take on things, which is their prerogative. And in a world of free speech, the beauty of what, you know, is the nature of the First Amendment, is that you should be able to express yourself. And so I fully support those cuts to rag on him for - How many blind people have you cared? I mean, they're allowed to have their prerogative on it.

1:17:48And yeah, I mean, obviously that's the take. Like, you're not doing anything. So shut the fuck up. But people who aren't doing anything are also allowed to chime in on stuff. Yeah, yeah. And they can look petty and they can look foolish, or they can have really good points. You know, and that makes you - But that's the beauty of what we have today. There's so much dumb shit involved in social media. There's so much bickering and hate. And there's so many people that are addicted to it. And it's elevated their anxiety level. And they're all on medication now because they're fucking tweeting 12 hours a day.

1:18:19There's a lot of that going on. But if you can figure out how to manage yourself and manage it, now we have access to information at an unprecedented level, where like something like the Restrict Act gets picked apart by brilliant people on Twitter, on Facebook, on Instagram, on everything. And that's so valuable. So we have to figure out a way to preserve that. And it's -it's -it's to have this kind of thing today. It has never existed in human history. Never. Not one time. Has there been a time in human history where a person could tweet about a thing, and it could be shared by millions of people, and all of a sudden the conversation about this subject changes.

1:19:08So you have a public narrative that's being pushed out forth by these propagandists. And then someone comes along and says, actually, this is what's really going on. And then Twitter will fact check it and they'll put people chime in. And this is a beautiful thing. I mean, it's really an amazing thing. So with all the bad that comes with social media and all the weird shit that it's doing to kids, it's just not good. But the government is now using it for propaganda purposes as well. And everyone's playing the name now. Got the governments in it. I mean, the Twitter files by Lee Feng exposed how the government was pushing propaganda.

1:19:50So it's not only about taking down, but also pushing out. So they're in it. They're in it not just that way. I guarantee they're in it the same way Russia's in it and these Eastern block countries that have troll farms. The idea of the United States is not engaged in something like that. It seems to me be pretty ridiculous. I'm sure they are. Oh, yeah, they are. I mean, it's on record now. And when you see someone will post something and then you'll see someone has a very specific response. And then if you take that specific response and Google it, you'll see hundreds of verisers together. Maybe end up with some sort of verbatim.

1:20:28Exactly responses from people that look like real people. You go to their site, there's a picture of them smiling, there might even be a picture of them with some fucking AI -generated kids. It's really weird when you look at someone's feet. Like I've looked at someone posting something controversial and then look at someone who has what seems to be like, well, this is a suspicious take. and then I'll go to their page and it's all suspicious takes. Like that is, and occasionally the retweets and the retweets of things that go along with the narrative that they're posting, but it seems like very calculated.

1:21:01And then you realize like this person has 30 followers. This is not even a real person. Yeah, human detection is so key now. Because there's gonna be, you know, armies of bots, AI bots, fully autonomous are coming. They're mostly here. And we just, you know, they're not going away. I mean, there's gonna be, and there's gonna be mastermind sort of engineers who have these armies that they control. And it's actually entertaining. Like there's gonna, the AI, JRE, you know, that's getting hundreds of thousands of views. I mean, that's like, they're blowing up. So like that's a whole thing for that person.

1:21:38And there's gonna be value and there's gonna be negative stuff that comes from it. But, you know, I just, I just love being able to watch it play out and just everyone's at war, mainstream media, at war with independent journalists. I mean, what do you think it goes? Did you ever like try to extrapolate? Did you ever try to like look at it, like from where we're standing now with the chat, GBT influence, the AI influence, all this different stuff, all the deep fakes? Do you ever wonder like where, how does this play out? I think that it's similar to what you were saying before, just like the transparency is just increasing.

1:22:17So, so drastic, even just thinking about how transparent everything is now compared to 20 years ago and what we're seeing play out real time. I mean, we're seeing Seymour Hirsch, who's a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist at war with the New York Times over Nord Stream right now. And that's just happening in front of us. Like the US government is denying that we did Nord Stream. Seymour Hirsch thinks otherwise. And you know, that is just... What is the New York Times take on? Oh man, if we can bring this up, I don't want to abuse Jamie's powers, but they're on Easter. Their post of the Nord Stream situation was so egregious.

1:23:02They said it may be best that the truth is not revealed about this. Like it's why. I mean, because they probably think nuclear warfare is on the table, if I mean, it would be a false flag. Look at this. Suspissions multiply as Nord Stream sabotage remains unsolved, intelligence leaks surrounding the sabotage of the pipelines have provided more questions and answers. It may be in no one's interest to reveal more. What? That's wild. I mean, you literally are in the business of revealing more. I mean, that's what you're supposed to be doing. If the United States government is engaging in something that is potentially dangerous to the human civilization, because we can start a fucking nuclear war because of this, if you don't report on that, that's gonna allow more of that shit to take place.

1:24:02I just, I can't believe those words were printed and they're still there. How can that be where we're at? I, in terms of where it's going, like honestly, I think that we are on the precipice of a whole new paradigm and level of access to information that is just gonna be like a total shift in humanity. I think we're getting closer. And I mean that with regards to classified information coming out, corporate secret information coming out, it's happening. I mean, it's happened. The Twitter, what we're seeing from the Twitter files, which Elon just did, he became a whistleblower on himself. And I mean, the amount of information that that gave us and they were denying it for years and gaslighting everybody.

1:24:53It's so egregious and dark. It's so dark and they don't have any punishment on the table, which is really crazy. You know, when you saw Vigia like testifying and she had to kind of admit things that they've said in the past that were not true, it's really fascinating to watch that. Because the ramifications of that, they're so, it's so dangerous. It's so dangerous to limit the truth and deny the truth. And when you're something like a social media network that is basically the town square for the world and you're doing that and you're doing that based on your ideology and you're doing that based on input from intelligence communities.

1:25:37It's social engineering. That's what it is. It is their guide. They want to guide us in this particular way. And because they don't think we can handle it. Which maybe we can't. I don't know. If the truth about all of the deep corruption came out to the extent that is real, I mean, it could cause wars. But at the same time, I actually don't think that. I think that ultimately, the best thing for America is for transparency to kind of happen and for us to fix it. The problem is the idea is that we're in competition with China and China does not allow that. So we will hinder ourselves and our ability to compete with them.

1:26:21That's the argument. And it's not a good argument, right? Because this country has a very robust belief in free speech. It's one of the reasons why, you know, dissent is tolerated. It's one of the reasons why we can get away with what we get away with. It's like we have protection in this country. And it's really the only country that has that. And the idea that in order to compete with China, we have to become China is fucking gross. It's not true, I don't think. I don't think it is either. I think the competition that we have because of free enterprise, free speech, the reason we have the best businesses in the world is because of that.

1:27:02It wouldn't be allowed to happen in other countries. They just scoop them up and then distort the vision. So it's a national security risk to not be transparent with the American people. This all this ban in crypto, restrict act, all of this stuff is devastating for innovation. I mean, that's the edge of innovation. So I mean, these lawmakers don't understand the technology. It's hard to understand. It's hard to understand. They don't even care to understand it. They're not even reading this stuff. They're just saying whatever they think their constituents want to hear or whatever the public narrative is or whatever the government is pushing.

1:27:44And they just sort of like pile on and repeat the propaganda. I mean, rather than banning Bitcoin, the US government should be stockpiling Bitcoin right now. It is a national security risk to not do that. Because what if all of the other countries do that? They're all moving, de -dollarization is occurring. Russia, China, they're all starting to trade, outside of the petro dollar. And if in Bitcoin adoption is occurring in these other countries, I mean, so even as a hedge, our country should be stockpiling. What if all these other countries, and it blows up and it becomes the global reserve currency, and then the US is just out of luck.

1:28:31Because we didn't participate because we were trying to be too heavy -handed with it. It doesn't mean that the Bitcoin and the dollar can coexist and should coexist. Like it's not necessarily one or the other. But I mean, yeah, we just need a new wave of politicians who are gonna open up. Is that gonna happen? I doubt it. I have to take a leak. Let's come back. So this is gonna wild. Jeremy Corbyl just sent me this. He said, he has the project manager for the government's largest UFO program. If our government has in possession, down -flying saucers, said for the first time being interviewed on camera about this, he answered publicly and the answer was yes.

1:29:21What the fuck? Are we back? Yeah, we're back. Here we go. What does that mean? I just sent it to you, Jamie. Let's watch it. Just see what you take on this. Because I know that you're fascinated by the subject too. This is a bizarre subject when it comes to disclosure. Let's see those. I don't hear anything.

1:29:46Maybe it's nothing, you know, but what do you know about the phenomenon, about UFOs? What can you say for sure? Maybe it's nothing, you know, but what do we know about UFOs and where does this go? As I said, what we know is what we gleaned from all of the data that has been discussed and, you know, that the UFOs are real. We will. I mean, tell me. Yes, UFOs are technologically sophisticated. They have performance characteristics that are, you know, the five observables are sort of well documented. But they also have a very profound effects on some people or they have superficial effects on other people.

1:30:34But they do have effects on people. So going forward is to combine both of those, is to study UFO performance. And, you know, the hope is that out of UFO performance can come theoretical physics, which will eventually translate into engineering. Does our government have down to UFOs from unknown origin that they've been trying and are trying to reverse engineer and exploit those technologies to understand the physics and understand that technology? Do we have that to work with? I can't talk about that, but the answer is yes. So this is from weaponized Jeremy Corbyl and George Naps podcast. Just that answer alone.

1:31:22So who is, who is he? Well, he is, according to Jeremy, he is a program manager for the government's largest UFO program. Which is that arrow? I don't know. It might be. Jamie could find that out. Yeah, I mean, the type of visible protections that are available, like I hope we can expand that so it's not just for UFO related stuff, but also for surveillance. Yeah. To protect the Snowden's and Assange's of the world. Like we need, we need that. And that's why I think that this office is going to be successful. It's because like you can't, the people who are doing the black projects need to have reassurance that they're not going to be screwed after coming forward.

1:32:15And so, you know, this, this type of legislation is so key. I had an exchange with, with Melon recently and he actually told me to, to mention this. So he was saying that Lazar should come forward through arrow because no. So because why not? I mean, if he was involved, then he could participate in that organization and put it through, because that's the channel that we have now. The idea that someone is going to come out and say, we have downed UFOs, but we can't talk about it. Like what does that mean? Do you have something that was unidentified, that is from some other state, some other government, that you've found and it's unidentified?

1:33:08Or are you saying you have something from another planet? There's two very different answers. Right, because the Chinese balloons included in this as well. So if that gets down, you know, that constitutes crash materials. Right, like what is it? You, it's unidentified. What does that mean? But are you saying that you have something, that you're back engineering from another country? Or are you saying you have something that is of some completely unknown origin? Like outside of this world? Well, I mean, based on the testimony from, you know, whether you're talking about Roswell, or particularly the one that I've been just loving, deep in the rabbit hole is the Virginia incident.

1:33:50That's the Brazil. Yeah. I mean, that is completely mind blowing. James Fox did an epic documentary about it, moment of contact. And, you know, there are military whistleblowers in his documentary, which say that the US flew in and transported. Can't believe I'm about to say this, but bodies and materials. Like in this documentary, there's aliens running around all over Virginia, Brazil. And these three, these two sisters and their friends saw it. The, the doctors saw it. They did X -rays on it. Like they talked to these doctors. And they did X -rays on the bodies. They did X -rays on the bodies.

1:34:31And they had to demolish the whole wing of the hospital where it occurred because the smell was so bad that, and this is, this was reported independently from the guy who saw the crash. Everyone said that it smelled like ammonia and sulfur, just like, and it couldn't get out of their system for weeks. And so, you know, there's, there's record of the hospital, you know, doing this, like this renovation. And I don't know, the speculation was saying that it's like maybe like a skunk or something like a skunk. Type smell. Yeah. Well, no, but that's like a skunk, you know, animals have reactions when they're in a scary environment.

1:35:14And that maybe these aliens have a similar reaction to like a skunk. That's what everyone said that the smell was so, so horrible that they couldn't get it off their body. So it's a demolish the whole wing of the hospital. And like the weird thing about this, so, Virginia is very similar to Roswell, and that like when you go to Roswell, it's like UFOs, you know, it's a tourist attraction. Right. So you go to Virginia, there's like huge UFOs everywhere. It's like the culture at this point because the whole city was basically locked down. They had like hundreds of people all over the city, saw military checkpoints or know somebody who was directly involved.

1:35:55And like, you know, I approached obviously agnostic on what is happening, but it's like you don't have hundreds of people saying exactly the same thing just out of nowhere. I mean, yeah, it could be some sort of government up, but it was like the mayor of our, did you see a moment of contact? No. Dude, it's so wild. It's so good. It's so well done. He's such a great filmmaker. Is there any evidence? Yeah, there's lots of evidence. I mean, so all of the, I mean, there are hospital records. There are, you mean like in terms of physical? Well, James says that there is, and that he's, you know, on top of it to try to find it, but I mean, evidence is a spectrum.

1:36:55So, you know, physical evidence, you know, people died. So this guy, Shariz, so they confronted this guy, Eric Loops, who with this guy, Shariz, I think, Carlos Shariz, they basically were police who like captured apparently, allegedly one of these things. And they talked to this guy's sister, who died, like a week after grabbing this thing, and you know, she has the death certificate, and like the cause of death was unknown. He had this like super weird infection. And so, you know, I would consider a death certificate, you know, based in, you know, he was who, he was a, he was a state worker, and he died for super bizarre reasons.

1:37:45So he touched, he grabbed it, and then apparently, there was like, he got a cut or something infection, and he died. They confront the other guy who was driving the car, Eric Loops, and he threatened to kill them when they go on his property. It's so crazy. But it's more so like, it seeps into the, when something seeps into the culture that deeply, like it did in Roswell, and you know, like it's in Brazil, I just, I tend to feel like there's something there because of just how overwhelming, you know, so many people saw the craft, so many people were involved. It's just, it's either the most ridiculous hoax of all time, which why would you even, like who would do that and why?

1:38:34And so, it's like when you're, when you're talking about Occam's razor, you know, the simplest is the most likely answer. I feel like Occam's razor in both cases of Roswell and Virginia are that something actually did happen. I mean, yeah, Roswell has some weird stories about bodies, you know, bodies and little caskets and stuff like that, but it's just like, there's so much attention to these things, there's so much hype that I always wonder, like how much of this is just people feeding off of the narrative and the stories and the fact that this is like an exciting thing to talk about and how much of it is that they want it to be real.

1:39:17I don't think any of these people want it to be real. I mean, half of the witnesses will only go on video with, you know, voice modulation and stuff from us, because of ridicule. Yeah, but why, but they don't even, yeah, because they don't want to, but they don't want to do it. They're just not interested in coming forward. So I feel like if that was, I mean, that certainly is the reason for a lot of people in the UFO world that they can just milk in, they get speaking gigs and they were contacted and, you know, it's a life. Yeah, there's a lot of that. Obviously, and that's something that, whenever there's a speculative phenomenon like that, it just seems like you're always going to get a bunch of bullshit or just, but, you know, the type of specific evidence that I'm interested in seeing more of is like, okay, so if the military witness claims that, you know, US Air Force came and transported something like, there are probably records somewhere of these flights.

1:40:23So like that's, but that's the type of thing that's just inaccessible to us. Yeah. So, but, you know, it probably exists somewhere and you just need a mechanism to dig that up. And so hopefully, hopefully Arrow can get down to it, but it's this guy, Sean Patrick, I want to say, is running it, but, you know, Kirsten Gillbrand was grilling the, some military officials over the lack of funding. They had requested that it gets far more funding. It's only, it's getting like 11 million a year right now, which I think for government ops is, you know, that's somewhat modest for the magnitude of what this really needs to be.

1:41:08But, you know, yeah, there's clips of her, people in Congress want this. What do you think is going on?

1:41:17I think it's happening. I do. I, you know, I also want it to be happening and I recognize that urge in myself, but I mean, I've been, I have no interest in falling for a bullshit. I don't, I mean, I'm looking for holes. I want holes. I don't want to, you know, be, yeah, that would just be embarrassing. It's just, there's so many different cases and there's so, and it's becoming legitimized now. I mean, they change the whole word to UAP because of the stigma. So we're seeing official acknowledgement and progress. Like government is investigating this. Now they're compiling the information. We have the best, you know, who you've had on, the best military witnesses, Air Force pilots.

1:42:11Like these guys are not fucking around. They're just not. Do you, I mean, I'm certainly, you don't think that Ryan Graves or Commander Fraver are full of it. No, I don't think they are. Ryan Graves doesn't have like a physical interaction with them. He basically, what he said was they upgraded their equipment and then immediately they started seeing things that define what they understand to be the laws of physics and what are currently known methods of propulsion and the way these things are able to operate and stay stationary in 120 mile an hour winds and things along those lines. He, he was pretty convinced that this is something outside of our realm of understanding.

1:42:55And then there's the Commander Fraver instance, which is very bizarre because multiple witnesses, video evidence, the equipment that they use to detect it, all that brings true, it's all, it all works correctly and that this thing was able to go from 50 ,000 plus feet above sea level to 50 feet in less than a second. They don't know what the fuck it is. They don't know why it behaved the way it behaved, the fact that it was blocking their radar systems, the fact that this thing, and you were there were gonna go. Yeah, I went to their cat point, which is their predetermined location where they were supposed to meet up later, went immediately to that.

1:43:37The fact that this thing operates with no visible method of propulsion and that it moves at these insane speeds, it would turn human beings into jelly if they were inside of it. It was a biological entity inside of that. So which makes you think like, okay, are these drones, are these like super sophisticated drones at some black ops projects been working on for a long time? Melon thinks that it's a post biological probe and that the traditional kind of gray, because that's where they were described almost exactly in Virginia, the drawings of the renditions of what the wind saw looks just like the gray, except it was brown with red eyes, which is a little bit strange, but, or post, you also have to think like, why would we assume that there's only one version of this thing if we look at the cosmos, that this gray alien with the black eyes is the only one that exists, like wouldn't there be some sort of parallel evolution?

1:44:39And I mean, my take on where human beings are headed seems that we're headed into some sort of an integration with technology. It's already integrated into our lives to the point where it's inescapable. And then what if it becomes physically integrated? And what if, when we're looking at declining in sperm counts, the human beings are becoming more feeble and weaker, and there's all this weirdness with gender like in our culture. And as technology advances, this obsession with gender and the lack of gender and gender being a social construct, and the decrease in testosterone and penis sizes, and actually, then there's like penis sizes are going off.

1:45:28Isn't it kind of weird that the transhuman, you kind of have the transhuman movement, but then also the transgender? Yeah. And it's like both, it's like both sort of this divergence. Well, one of my concerns is that it's just like a decaying of biological relevancy, and that we're eventually going to succumb to this thing, and we're going to become a part of it, and that's what we're seeing, we're seeing these essentially genderless, muscleless creatures with enormous heads, that that becomes what all primates eventually evolved to, and that we're thinking of technology like it's not life, and that maybe it is life, and maybe it's just a different kind of life, and we're creating this kind of life, and we will eventually be that kind of life.

1:46:16Yeah, I think that within the transhuman path, there's multiple branches, so it's not as if it's all sort of this degradation, though I typically, I'm in no rush to integrate, you know, Nurelink, but if I had Alzheimer's, and I was faced with that, you see, everyone can be a skeptic and say, I would never put that in my body until the moment that, you know, some incurable disease is suddenly fixed by it. Yeah, well, yeah, paralysis, that's what's gonna be a big one. People that can't use their limbs, and also now they can. And then the thing is, if it does do what Elon thinks it's going to be able to do, which is radically alter your access to information, and change your ability to process information, and it's going to give the people that adopted a significant advantage.

1:47:13Not just a significant advantage, but an almost insurmountable advantage without it, and then everyone's going to do it, just like everyone wears clothes. Someone invented clothes because it's way better. You can survive outside, you know, with the fucking downed Parker on, and bull undergarments, and you could live in a way that you could never live without it. So it's much more sustainable to use clothes. So everybody eventually put on clothes. I mean, clothes are a form of technology. We were all wearing them. You can't go anywhere without seeing people in clothes, and that sort of, like, it is an invention.

1:47:55And we don't think of it that way. We just think of it as clothes, but it's a method that we have devised in order to walk on sharp surfaces and inclement weather, and we protect ourselves physically and biologically from that. If that is just one step in the humans' invention that sort of removes us from the biological limitations that we currently have, that's going to keep going. And it's going to keep going, and the end point seems to be integration. Yeah, clothes as technology. That's so important for people to recognize, because we don't consider them the same for the most part. And so do you know the first use of the word computer?

1:48:44Guess. What year? What year? I'm going to go crazy. Let's say 1 ,500. Pretty good. 16, 13. And it was to refer to a human who conducts computations. So we called a human was the first use of a word computer, somebody who's just doing math. And then it just escaped from there. Yeah. So we are. And there's going to be a fork in the road where see, like, I just would, Nurellink needs to be open source. I don't know how, like, putting something in my brain that can just like switch me off, that I can at least unleash some computer scientists on to audit it, make sure, like, OK, is this going to do anything to me?

1:49:40I mean, that's the thought process that I go through when I ask, like, would I integrate? I would probably only do it if I had to. But I mean. Do you think there's going to come a time where you have to? Or someone of your generation will have to? Or have to. Or better not be have to? Well, I don't want to say, like, even physically forced, but in order to compete and to exist, like, phones. You don't have to have a phone. You don't have to have a phone. You could be that dude who lives in the woods and chops down trees. But do you think that that is going to be the same decision? I feel like a lot more people are going to resist biological integration.

1:50:21Even though phones, you know, they're on our bodies, they are biological extensions, sort of. But they're actually having biological impact. Your leg vibrates. There's definitely energy exchange. But I don't know. I mean, I don't envision myself just like buckling to some cultural trend. I don't think it's necessarily just a cultural trend. I mean, you really, if you want to compete in the workforce and you don't have a smartphone, you're at a significant disadvantage. But you don't have to physically integrate to get access to that. Yeah, you probably do. To a certain degree, if you're going to be able to do the stuff that Nurlings potentially capable of, but like, yeah.

1:51:10I mean, but are you saying that you would because of that competition? I'm not saying that I would. I'm saying that everybody would. I think if it gets to a certain point, look, it took a while before cell phones became basically universal and across all cultures. I mean, sure, you can go to some hunter gatherer tribes and they don't have cell phones. But you don't want to live like that. But it's so much easier to make the decision to get a cell phone and get an operation. Yeah, but what if it becomes a thing that becomes very easy to acquire? And the other thing is it's also there's a haves and have not aspect to it.

1:51:48Because the people that are early adopters, if it is effective and it does work, you will have a massive advantage over everyone else. If it really does change the way your mind is able to access information and the way your mind is able to process things. And you know, imagine having the computational power and the access to information that chat GPT has, but instantaneously in your mind. That seems to me where it's all headed. And it just doesn't seem like it's going to stop. It seems like everything keeps moving in this general direction of integration. Great, yeah, I don't think it's stoppable at all.

1:52:26And it's more so how do we guide it so that it isn't just total dystopia? Because there are different versions of this technology. And similar to this whole issue with like, you know, freedom -based social media versus, you know, big tech, like it's the same dichotomy. You know, there will be super advanced transhuman technology where the creators of it actually want to be as ethical as possible. There's already those AI camps that exist. And so if the AI is getting integrated with the hardware that's coming in, then, you know, we just need to be cognizant of that distinction. Because there's no, we don't want to stop it.

1:53:09I mean, it's amazing. Like there was an instance with Chad GPT where this guy, his dog was dying. And he was like, what am I going to do? The doctor's telling me there's nothing we can do. He takes the blood test from the doctor. He's like, give me the blood results. Feeds the specific results into Chad GPT and asks it some questions about like, what could possibly be going wrong here? You know, give me some, give me something to work with. It gives him a couple of options. He then takes that back to the doctor and they found it and the dog's fine. The dog was going to die. The dog was anemic.

1:53:47And so what was wrong? I don't remember all of the specifics, but it was, and he was in, the dog was anemic. And there was something, but he successfully used it to help the doctor diagnose. And it actually fixed the dog. So, you know, at this point, I mean, specifically with medical applications. So here it is. Started dog in the proper treatment. She's made almost a full recovery now. Note that both of these diseases are very common. Babe, Ciosis is the number one tick -borne disease. Oh, it was a tick -borne disease. And the IMHA is common complication of it, especially for this breed. Also, that looks like an Australian shepherd, I think.

1:54:37I think, yeah. Says, I don't know why the first vet couldn't make the correct diagnosis, either incompetence or poor management, GPT 3 .5 couldn't place the proper diagnosis, but GPT 4 was smart enough to do it. I can't imagine what medical diagnostics will look like 20 years from now. Wow. Will you say that, pull that little, but a little higher up there? The most impressive part was how well it read interpreted the blood test results. It simply transcribed the CBC test values from a piece of paper. And it gave step -by -step explanation and interpretation along with the reference ranges, which I confirmed all correct.

1:55:19Wow. That's pretty wild. That's pretty wild. So even as a supplemental tool for doctors to be referring to when they're coming up with their own, you know, it's a helper. Well, the question is, are you going to need doctors? Because it seems like you're going to need surgeons, but are you going to need general practitioners that can disseminate information based on test results when they're not even that good at it? And they have like 15 people coming to their office and everybody's got five minutes and then they have student loans to pay and they sure have her eyeballs. They have human eyeballs.

1:55:58And also, all they have is there what they've absorbed in terms of the amount of research and information they have. And that varies widely between the doctors because some doctors are more studied and some aren't and some are specialists and some aren't. And some have done an incredible amount of work on certain subjects and some of them are completely ignorant of it. You ever try to talk to a general practitioner about vitamins? They don't. They all, you don't know your vitamins. You're just in the wild -balanced diet and you look at this fat guy who's telling you that's like, the fuck do you know?

1:56:29You don't. You don't. I mean, you're literally talking to a person that hasn't had an education and nutrition and they're telling people, I've had conversations with doctors like that. And I'm like, well, that's pretty ridiculous. What you're saying is patently untrue. Yeah, I mean, it's going to potentially become a liability for to go with the human. Because if you're studying an MRI or something just with your human eyeballs, AI can find the most minute little trace of something that you could so easily miss. And so that's just, I mean, that's going to be a revolution for lifespan. Is chat GBT4 now available to anyone?

1:57:15You have to pay. You have to pay. But you can pay and get an access 20 bucks a month or so. But for anyone? Yep. Oh, wow. They did remove some abilities, features, upgrades recently. They got too busy. Oh, I see. I don't know what that means and how they can do that or processing, turning it on and on. How many people are using it? You do have, I mean, there's occasional just like total garbage. And it's so confidently spit out, which you just really, it's why it's not ready for a prime time. But what kind? It will, like, I don't know. I asked it about me just to see what it would come up with.

1:57:51And it just came up with this like, right -wing piece of shit, problematic anti -American. I mean, communist. It said that I was like founder of, it said a lot of 90 % correct. But then it said that I was with this other company that I just never even heard of. Is that because it's getting the information from websites that are incorrectly saying these things? We don't know. So the system could be game in that way. You could put up some sort of like fact checker .org bullshit website when you put out a bunch of propaganda and it sucks that information off the web and uses it at least a flavor and answer.

1:58:29Yeah, that's a great point. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes much more of a problem. And that's why we need to know what are the data sets that these tools are scooping from. It's like what are you, so you're scanning the whole web for all the world's data and images and use of language. But like you're pulling in from, you know, misinformation .com. Right. Why are you using that? And we don't know what they're using. Right. Well, that's probably going to be better with chat GBT 4 .5. Right? So what you're dealing with is like a constant improvement upon this resource that has in a relatively short period of time revolutionized the way people get access to answers.

1:59:15So the word that is an interesting word which is going to become more talked about is alignment, have you heard this? No. So alignment is the phrase used in AI research to kind of understand how aligned this technology is with humanity.

1:59:35So, you know, and it's going to be abused for the same way that we see chat GBT becoming biased. Already. I mean, you can ask it to make a joke about. I took this screenshot off of chat GBT ad for to save for and more align. Align, what is that mean? Align with all the real one. Yeah, it's all about alignment. Announcing chat GBT 4, a large multi -modal model with our best ever results on capabilities and alignment. Yeah, what is it? So it sounds very similar to creating... I think there's validity to it. We need to be concerned about alignment. We need to be concerned, how is this technology helping or hurting humanity?

2:00:24However, the problem is that different people have very different perceptions of what is good and what is bad for humanity. So the people at OpenAI are telling it not to make a joke about Biden, but make a joke about Trump. Mm. Yeah. They're already kind of creating these rules sets of what is acceptable and what's not acceptable. Elon comes out, we need truth GBT, the fully uncensored version, which is going to come out and then that's going to be chaos because you'll be able to... How do I create this virus? And... How do I make a bomb? Granted, you can already do that in searching. So ultimately, models are going to become more personalized.

2:01:06You would hope that you would have the ability to control that yourself, how sensitive a version do I want? Do I want the safer version? But, you know, and then the... Max Tagmark and his institute in Elon signed it came out with this whole thing to pause AI. Do you see that? Yes. Which is surprising, but also... They're concerned rightfully. We don't know because it's becoming more autonomous and it's potentially... Yeah. So here's something that Jamie just pulled up. Elon Musk reportedly purchases thousands of GPUs for a generative AI project at Twitter. Reports say it's a commitment to AI despite signing cautionary AI pause letter.

2:02:01Well, I don't know exactly what that means. Yeah, so basically they're pursuing their own because there's some drama involved with Elon and OpenAI because he put 100 million into the original. And then, so they were a nonprofit in their first years. And then they realized, okay, we need more money. This is... We need supercomputers. So, you know, this is not going to be a cheap endeavor. We need billions of dollars. And so they now they have a sort of hybrid model where there's a for -profit entity and a nonprofit and they sort of help each other. And I think there was a semaphore article on Elon's trying to take over OpenAI, which I'm not going to say that it's like the full truth of it.

2:02:49I think we don't know. But so Altman and Elon were working together early on and then Elon, I think, tried to take... I don't know if it was a hostile takeover, but wanted to lead the effort and it didn't work. People didn't want it to happen. And so they went off and did their thing and then Elon left. And I think that, you know, that must be frustrating to him. He put 100 million in and they to do OpenAI, which you would assume means it's going to be open source and ethical. And then they keep going, going. They become the biggest app in the world. And the original investors are kind of like, okay.

2:03:30Right. You know, that's not cool. And so, you know, you should, Twitter should start their own, they have some of the best training data in the world. It's just the most accurate, real -time language use in humanity. So they're probably going to come out with something cool. And then you've got a bunch of other... There's open alternative chat you've called Colossal, which is decent, but they're still reliant on some small parts of chat GPT. But yeah, I mean, it's... You know, with what we're seeing, there's more than meets... There's a lot of business drama happening behind the scenes, you know, with the sub -sex stuff, with the OpenAI stuff.

2:04:13And, you know, I think that... Yeah, I just don't buy into the whole secrecy is going to save us mentality. And I don't see OpenAI like saying, okay, at this point, we now believe this to be safe enough to release. I just think that they're going to keep hoarding. And when really they should give us a path to when it's... If we're going to be relying on them, they're getting so powerful, so fast. Yeah. They need to give us a path to when it's going to be transparent. And also, why are you doing all this bias? And I think there should be revshare baked in for humanity. Like, why not have... Rather than have the government fund UBI, why not have the, you know, billion dollar tech companies that are taking everybody's data, give everybody a little revshare on it.

2:05:03If they're using your data, and it's actually being processed and used on a regular basis, give everybody a little bit. You can still be rich, you can still, you know, become a huge company. In my opinion... That's your mindset. Yeah. But to be honest, it's not just me. Like, that is what is going to be smart for them. Like, Elon even is doing monetization on Twitter. They're working on it. They're trying to do encrypted messages, apparently. You know, ultimately what's best for the community is I think better for the corporation long term, unless they want to fight this war, which they're going to, and maybe they do, but...

2:05:46Fight this war... This war for, you know, to be the top AI. Yeah. I'm sure that's what they're doing. Yeah, I mean, it kind of makes sense, but it's a very good point. Like, where are you getting the data that's allowing you to do this? It's basically everyone's data. Everyone's data. Yeah. It's just the internet. Yeah. And who owns the internet? No one knows. Because the internet is an open source, decentralized protocol. But it seems to me like, this is the first rumblings of cyborgs. This is the first steps that is going to force our integration. Because if this does become something you can access instantaneously in your mind with some thing that you put on your head or something you put in your head, I just don't see people not taking that.

2:06:33What does that look like in your visual system? So you integrate neural link, and it's in there, because we kind of have like our internal eye in mind's eye, I don't know what it is. What we, whatever it is, what we see when we dream, something our eyes aren't open, but we're seeing. Right. So what would that even feel like to search the internet through your brain? Like, are you seeing something like, to feel it? I think there's probably going to be multiple versions of it. It's going to get better and better, which is why you, A, don't want to be an early adopter, but maybe you do because those are the people that are going to be able to get access to the second version of this and the third, and it's going to become progressively more and more powerful.

2:07:21I really wonder like when we're talking about aliens, we're talking about these creatures, maybe that's a natural course of progression for intelligent life. That intelligent life eventually realizes there's limits to biological evolution, but technology allows you to jumpstart and bypass all those limitations radically, quickly, where the versions that are created by human beings, once AI is able to take over and make better versions of it, it's going to make a better version of itself, it's going to continue to evolve to the point where, I mean, you really become something that's completely different than a human being.

2:08:04Yeah, and it's a question of, do I want to live? Now, that's the question that we're going to get faced with. Do you want to keep living or do you want to die and you got to pick if you're going to integrate or not, if you want to live? Because our bodies just can't handle it. Do you want to be in a Norman Rockwell painting or do you want to be in a Stanley Kubrick movie? Yeah, how do you want to live? And like for what you were saying about, what will, where is the disclosure process taking us? Like, I think that there is real possibility for social unrest because, and end the global economy.

2:08:47This is most likely the reason that they're taking their time letting information out because religion, the global energy economy, I mean, if these things are real and they're powered by some propulsion system with a new form of energy that is near limitless or whatever it is, then what does that do for the economy? Suddenly, all the top largest energy companies in the world are just irrelevant. And then the religion, the religious stuff is like a whole other level of the equation. But like people will have concern. And they should. And they should. Because we might not be people very much longer.

2:09:33But there's a cool book called AD After Disclosure, which kind of does a thought experiment about what would happen. So it's a fiction book about what happens if the government comes out and has an official press conference and tells us what's going on. And it's cool. It's by a really smart researcher. How's it play out? I didn't read it. But I love Richard Dolman who wrote it. And I've watched hundreds of hours of his podcast. He's a great researcher. I need to read it. Maybe I'll listen to it. If you had to speculate as to imagine, if there is some large worldwide wholesale disclosure of information like if invasion is eminent or some sort of undeniable event takes place, how do you think that plays out?

2:10:33But the weird thing is that if Virginia happened, if you're living there and you're seeing that, this is it. Right, but that's a crash. Right, what if it's a landing? Right, like on the White House lawn. Yeah. I mean, they have buzzed the White House. Yeah, in the 50s. Yeah, and so, but yeah, there's something going on where they're in some senses being bold, but they're not being bold enough that it for some reason is able to take hold in just all of human society says, okay, we can't not talk about this anymore because what'll happen now is there'll be all these, New York Times article, Pentagon leaks, and it's like, whoa, can we stop and talk about that for five minutes before we just go back to life?

2:11:26Right. And we just keep going back to life and forgetting about that. Well, don't you think there's like an information overrural overwhelming aspect to this that it's just overload of data and you use constantly inundated by new stories, new things, and there's so much to talk about and think about that it's very difficult for one thing to stick. Unless it's like a nonsense thing that people get excited about, you know, like this Bud Light nonsense, like Dylan Mulvaney is in the spokesperson for Bud Light and now people are shooting Bud Light. And you know, my take on it has been like, yeah, I think that person's a silly person and the tension whore and a fucking weird person to be a cultural lightening rod.

2:12:12They're obviously just a narcissist. But why aren't you freaking out about all these other things that are happening? Why are you not freaking out about the Restrict Act? Why are you not freaking out about what's happening with chat GPT? Why is everybody freaking out about this dumb thing with Bud Light? Yeah, there, I mean, there has to be room for paying attention to just silly crazy drama and we're always gonna, it's good to a degree. Why is that primary? I don't know, do you think it's primary? Yeah, I do. I think there's way more people concerned with Bud Light than they are with the Restrict Act.

2:12:50You have to force that into people's minds. I think there's a certain percentage of our population where their mind just gloss over. Like when you start talking about open source and you start to, exactly. A lot of people just like, brrr, they don't have whatever it is, the software to handle that. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's coming and we just need to stay on it. What else matters? Like I don't want to die without knowing because if that information exists and we're living in a world right now where there are people in DC or elite figures in the government who do, it's basically multiple civilizations coexisting.

2:13:43There's people with access. When you digest certain new breakthrough information which humanity has done repeatedly, that's, I think that changes who we are. It changes how we interface with the world. It changes all of the decisions that we make. And so if this is, we know that we're living in this almost like information caste system where there are people with access and people without. And so that does exist. Whether that includes, you know, actual aliens, I don't know, but it exists for all kinds of issues that absolutely matter to our existence could be dealing with energy technology, could be dealing with corruption, you know, major geopolitical events that would totally change the trajectory of the world.

2:14:39So I'm just like, not comfortable, not knowing and having these people that I don't know who they are and why did they get to know. It's not cool. No, it's not. But it's kind of, I mean, that's always been the story that that has taken place. Like that was the, I'm sure aware of the Jackie Gleason story. Right. The Jackie Gleason was friends with Nixon. They're drinking and Nixon says, Hey, you want to see some fucking crazy shit? And he takes him to whatever air force base where they have a downed UFO and he has access to see this and he sees alien bodies that this is something that the government has always had.

2:15:24And they've had this thing. And Gleason, you know, there's speculation as to whether or not he really did to have that conversation with Nixon, but there's no speculation to the fact that he built a fucking house that looked like a UFO after that happened. And that house is, you know, you could look at it. Looks like a flying saucer house. Yeah. And we just don't, I mean, the laws that we need are laws for more information. What do you think would happen? If human beings absolutely knew that we do have UFOs from another world that we're back engineering and we're trying to figure it out, that we have been in contact with alien civilizations.

2:16:05We are being monitored. You know, the UFO folklore is, of course, that once we drop the bombs that all of a sudden they start showing up, which totally makes sense. Like, okay, there's a detection that these people, these beings on this planet, they've entered into this new phase of understanding of technology and they can harness the atom and they use it, of course, they use it as a bomb. Now, they're using it as nuclear power, they're using it in all these different ways. And we have to make sure that they safely transition to the next stage of evolution without complete total destruction, which would send them back to, at the very least, the Stone Age, and then you're dealing with a, you know, tens of thousands of years of, you know, reinventing everything.

2:16:52And getting back to the state where they were at now and give them another shot at doing it again. So maybe that's why they showed up and maybe that's why they're monitoring us and that's why they're here. That it's a bridge. And they're just here to make sure that we don't fuck everything up. So that this is a very delicate and precarious process that exists with all intelligent life forms all throughout the universe. And that we're at a stage, just like, you know, there's speculation and there's people openly discussing that some primates, lower primates, have entered into the Stone Age. They're using tools, they're using things and this is very similar to what they think happen to human beings.

2:17:37And that over the course of millions of years, they'll eventually become like us. Isn't that, this is just a natural process that exists where intelligent life forms learn things slowly at first and that eventually incredibly rapidly, which is what we're seeing now with AI. It's totally logical. I think the way that we interface with species below us is sometimes we're fascinated by them and want to learn about them instead. But other times we're like, that's squirrel, okay. And so it's kind of both of those things. Like, people polarize the conversation, they say, oh, they'd never be interested in us.

2:18:16That's stupid. Of course they would. Yeah, that's Neil deGrasse ties in. Just like we are in everything. Of course. But at the same time, they probably also have other cooler things to pay attention to. Maybe there's other way cooler species than us to pay attention to or you know. I'm sure there are. But this is the transition. So if I was an alien life form, it's a superior intelligence from some other galaxy or some other part of the universe, I would 100 % be concentrating on integrating this new species into the galactic network if there is one. And then helping them get to this next stage.

2:18:55Does maybe, I mean, maybe life is fairly rare. Maybe intelligent life is much more rare. And maybe this thing that we're seeing is like these rare nuggets of some very precious thing that exists in the universe. And so they seek it out. And they recognize that this is the thing that brings them to the ultimate next stage. Yeah, it's rare, but also potentially fundamental. And so basically consciousness as the core of all things, all matter. You know, that guy you had on, I actually connected with at one point, Philip Goth. He's really interesting. He's a pan -psychist. Yes. And those, you know, actually, Anika Harris, Sam Harris's wife, wrote a cool book, which I also haven't read, but I know about it.

2:19:52It's called Conscious. And it's all about pan -psychism, which is cool coming from her because she obviously is like rigorous. You know, if you're gonna be married to Sam Harris, you probably need to not be full of woo. And so she kind of explored, and I listen to some podcasts with her explaining it. And so this is a real thing that's getting taken seriously. It's not necessarily like physically provable, but like you can't actually deny that it's a possibility that consciousness is sort of the engine of everything. So, you know, philosophically, when you're arguing against like materialism versus fundamental consciousness, like the materialists are, they kind of arbitrarily try to point to when consciousness emerges.

2:20:43It's like, but how can you pick that point? Like, because if all matter is evolving and like eventually becoming complex enough to, you know, have conscious properties, but still, show me the exact time when you consider something conscious. Because there's plants, there's all kinds of, you know, microbes like, you just keep going, is it when it's reactionary to its environment and trying to preserve its own life, or is it when it's interactive and conscious to the point where it's communicating? Is that when we decide that it's conscious? Is it when it's able to manipulate its environment? Like we are.

2:21:26I mean, do we, we obviously prioritize our consciousness above Orcas? Because we, what we're doing at Orcas is fucking horrific. And accepted in some strange way that, you know, you can go to SeaWorld and watch something that might be as smart as us do tricks for fish. You know, like, why are we willing to do that? That's clearly a conscious thing that has a language. And yet we're like, yay, yay, yes, stay in the pool bitch. You know, it's weird what we do and what we prioritize as conscious. We seem to have like a cast system of our own where we decide that we only favor things that are able to manipulate their environment.

2:22:10Yeah, I mean, but that's way beyond, I think, you know, Orcas, like that's so maybe, maybe to other people that they don't consider Orcas conscious, but I feel like that's like a certain type of person that really hasn't looked into that. They're clearly conscious. They're clearly conscious. And then, I mean, but going back to micro, I mean, I would say that a micro was obviously conscious. I mean, like, but that's just where I'm at in the conversation. Maybe viruses are conscious as well. Right. I mean, there's obviously evolution in viruses. It's all just very rapid. You know, look, look what we saw in terms of variants from COVID, like these vaccine resistant variants that popped up, like almost instantaneously, you know, that these viruses recognize where immunity is and they figure out a way to move around that immunity and become more contagious.

2:23:05There's also the words we use matter, like life and conscious are a little bit different, you know, because something would be considered a live, probably earlier than most people would consider conscious. So some of the panseqists like to talk about experience, is the matter having any sort of an experience and sometimes that's a little bit more digestible for people. Wasn't that just an evolved level of consciousness? You know, we have single -celled organisms, we consider them alive, but they're not multi -cellular organisms. I mean, I tend to lean towards it being fundamental just because I can't place a spot on the emergent continuum.

2:23:57Like it's just too rant, I'm not gonna pick. You're not gonna make me pick. There's not like a switch to get hit or a, you know, a turkey tester to pop up, blink, you know, like, oh, it's ready. Right. And it's the same thing when we look at, you know, a human being born and like being in the womb, like, you know, people arbitrarily saying, oh, this moment, that's gonna stop. Right, how do you know? Don't know. We're not gonna play this like number of days game. Right, like when does this soul enter into the fetus? But then that's why Chris Rock and Louie also has a great bit about that where it's just like, oh, you know, you should be able to kill, you know, like kill it.

2:24:41But you're killing. Right. Yeah, yeah, Bill Burr has a great bit about that as well. Like I support your right, but I also think you're killing a baby. And that's, you would think that that just feels like a more healthy place to be having the conversation. Well, it's just very uncomfortable for people. And especially people that support a woman's right to choose. They don't want to think of it that way. But it's undeniable. You know, I had a conversation with someone online once a long time where Richard Dawkins was saying that there's no difference between a human fetus and a pig fetus. It's sort of like, what are you talking about?

2:25:19That's a ridiculous way to look at it because a human fetus has the potential to become a human being. That could be your neighbor. It could be your best friend. It's gonna turn into a person. If someone doesn't intervene or if it doesn't die, it's going to become a person. Pig fetus is gonna become a pig. They're very different things. You could argue that a pig is intelligent because they are. They're calculated. They do things. They're smart. They're smarter than dogs. You know, as your dog conscious, I think my dog's conscious. I have conversations with him. He knows when it's time to eat.

2:25:51You know, he knows what I'm saying. When I ask him if he wants to play, he knows he's fucking conscious. He's just not at the level that a human being is. But that's also because he doesn't have the hardware. Yeah, I mean, with the pro life, pro choice debate, it just feels so shallow. Similar to the climate change debate, where it's like, obviously human life is precious and we should preserve it as much as is humanly possible. And guess what, yes, if you choose to have an abortion, yeah, it's killing something. You're killing something. You know, whether or not people should have the legal right to do that in certain circumstances, I'm not someone to answer that.

2:26:30But like, it would be so much more of a healthy conversation if we could agree at least on what we're talking about. Right. Which seems like people are trying to deny that it's life, which is not reality. It's in with climate change. It's like, who cares if it's global warming, blah, blah, blah. Do you think pollution is good? Right. Right. If pollution, if we all agree pollution is bad, then we're getting the outcome that we want, which is less pollution. Yes. But we're not worrying about is that, like, based on millions of years, like who knows? Right. So it's like, I feel like some of these debates are just arguing about the wrong things.

2:27:11And it's just, we need to reset some of these conversations to just find the place where we can agree on one thing and then make progress from there. Because I think that a lot of people who are pro -abortion, like Louis and Chris Rock who made those bits, which are kind of crude bits, but they're at least honestly acknowledging what's going on. Yes. Yeah. But that's the purpose that humor does serve in those ways. It makes you laugh at something that is kind of like, you leave there going, has this kind of fucking good point. It was funny. But there's actually, there's some truth in that. And if it didn't have truth in it, no one would be laughing.

2:27:49And that's the test of it all. It's like, does it resonate with that part of your mind that recognizes these inconsistencies? And there's another problem with both the pro -life pro -choice and also the climate argument that they become embedded in ideologies. So they become these dogmatic things that you cannot question. If you are a part of this group and you wanna be accepted by this group, there's essentially two groups. There's one group that believes in guns, but also believes that babies are sacred. It's like very strange. They're in general pro -military and pro -killing bad people, but also they think all life is precious.

2:28:34Protect babies with guns. It's fucking wild, but it's also, if you don't give up your gun, people with guns will take your guns. And they'll have all the guns to make sure that you don't have guns. And it's like, geez. Now, it is a thought virus called to think that you have to have your identity sort of align with this cluster of beliefs. This is everything intersects and so like, I need to do that. I honestly feel bad for people who find themselves in that spot. Well, it's brilliant people. This is the problem. Thomas Sol had a great point about that. That intellectuals will oftentimes compartmentalize and ignore evidence.

2:29:15In like, we're talking about brilliant people that we rely on to be the voice of reason or the voice of intelligence in fact when it comes to certain particular arguments that they'll align with only the facts that support their case or support their position. And if it doesn't support their position, they'll conveniently ignore it. And we see that with almost everything. We saw that very clearly with the discussion about COVID and whether or not metabolic health is important and whether or not other treatments are important or whether or not you should accept the narrative that there's one binary argument and that there's one answer and that this is the only answer to solve this problem.

2:30:01And clearly that's not the case and not true. It was represented across like so many different demographics, so many people that were similar but did different things had better outcomes. So there's also this weird thing that human beings or almost automatically do is they try to find the most convenient answer and the answer that supports their preexisting conditions or their preexisting positions rather. Yeah, it's weird how COVID seems far away now. But for history books are going to look at that as the largest scale psychological experiment on humanity that's ever occurred. I'm sure. Literally billions of people behaving, I mean, it used to be like Stanford Prison experiment, the elevator experiment, that one.

2:31:00Where everyone in the elevator is turned the opposite way of the door and then people who walk in just turn and face the other wall just because everybody else in the elevator is doing it. I mean billions of people doing that type of behavior now. Yeah, it's a problem with human beings that we are tribal and we want the respect and the acceptance of our tribe. And if our tribe is even if it's illogical is heavily leaning towards one position we feel absolutely compelled to do what the tribe is doing. And we support each other. We talk about it, we discuss it. And we find rationalizations. It's hard though because you can't know everything and you want to be able to trust experts and defer to scientific consensus which isn't even really should be a thing.

2:31:50Well, no, it's not even scientific consensus. It's scientific consensus, along people that are willing to accept the proposed narrative by these very corrupt organizations that you could follow a very clear paper trail of money and influence that led them to these decisions. Like the Labley Hypothesis is one of the best examples of that where there's literal emails, actual emails that show people thinking that it came from a lab and then there is discussion with other people that don't think it came from the lab and then there's money that gets exchanged where they get these grants and they've changed their position.

2:32:29And it's very weird and no one is discussing it in any mainstream source where they're saying, hey, we've got a real fucking problem with this and this is the problem, this is how it happened. It takes independent journalists and people that are very brave that get censored, they get removed from YouTube, they get banned from Twitter and these are the people that came out and had a problem with this. And a lot of them have rock solid credentials. A lot of them are established doctors and scientists and they're saying, here's the problems and why aren't we addressing these problems and these people are getting, you know, these pejoratives labeled on them, like they're anti -vaxxers, they're conspiracy theorists, they're fools, you know?

2:33:10It's very strange. But we did watch it, we did witness it and some people learned from it and some people developed a new healthy sense of skepticism about public narratives and other people or just they're still, they have their heels dug in, why don't you believe in science? Like what science are you? What are you talking about? Science is data. I don't believe in data. Are you looking at all the data? Because I bet you aren't. Let's discuss some of that data. And then when you see the panic on their face, when they're forced to discuss this data and they're forced to discuss like these inconvenient realities, it's fucking fascinating.

2:33:47Yeah, and it's just another example of the lack of access to them for me because China is just, you know, keeping it all super tight. Because obviously if the pandemic spawned from them that's going to have geopolitical consequences. But it's a perfect example. Like that just ripped through this planet and we don't know what happened and there are people who know more than we know about what happened. And we're, you know, but they, you know, probably national security reasons from all governments on lock, we got it. We can't let this out because, you know, it could cause unrest or... Well, how about that fucking New York Times article about Nord Stream?

2:34:31It's the same attitude. Like maybe it's best that we don't know. Did you see the clip of Biden saying that, oh, we will put an end to Nord Stream? I did not. Oh my God. So this is in the original C -Maurer Hirsch article, you know, basically how the US destroyed Nord Stream. And there's a clip of Biden pre -Nord Stream saying it will be, you know, we're gonna put an end to Nord Stream. That guy must be such a fucking nightmare to those people because he's so compromised, you know, wait, his mind, the way... Oh, nightmare to his team. Yeah, to the people that don't want that out there. Oh, right.

2:35:12Because he's just, he's so mentally compromised. Like he can't trust him. He gets in front of a microphone. Let's hear what he says.

2:35:23The question fades. Prussian vades. That means tanks are troops crossing the border of Ukraine again. Then there will be no longer a Nord Stream too. We will bring it into it. It is. It's Christ. How will you do that exactly since the project and control of the project is within Germany's control? We will, I promise you, we'll be able to do it. Oh my God. What a fucking nightmare he must be. And, you know, from the near -time's end of things, like they're scared. People are scared because if it... I mean, that is an act of war. And it seems like what Seymour Hersh said seems to be true. I mean, he is all the documentation.

2:36:14He knows what happened when it happened. Who did it? And if he's... He's Seymour Hersh. He's not a fucking moron. He's not just some random person. He's in 80 plus year old Pulitzer Prize, winning journalists is one of the best journalists that's ever existed. Exactly. And for this... It's basically the most recent false flag that has occurred if it's true. Right. And because that was providing energy to Europe. Right. I mean, people's... That had serious effects on how much people were paying for energy. Serious effects. Serious effects. Yeah. So it's scary. Is it completely destroyed? Yeah. So it's no longer providing...

2:37:03Right. That was the second pipeline, I think. Right. There was two. Another one that still does. Then what I heard recently was that Saudi Arabia is buying Russia's oil and then distributing it to Europe. Oh great. So the... bypassed it. Right. Right. Smart of Saudi Arabia. I mean, when you have a president that's saying something like that, then it actually happens. And he's like, we don't have any of yours. But this is actually one of the things that makes me not believe in aliens. Is that unless the current administration is just so in the dark about what is going on on our planet. I would think that if the government was actually in on this and aware, they wouldn't be going around blowing up pipelines.

2:37:47Like, wouldn't government relationships with aliens mean that they have some semblance of understanding of how to behave? But do you think that that's the level of understanding and information exchange they have or do you think it's more like chimpanzees in the Congo being aware of researchers watching them? Because I would imagine it's more like that. But even still, that is so if they know, I doubt Biden has been you know, clued in if it is real. But about UFOs. About UFOs. Well, it seems that Clinton and at least Obama there was and Trump even Trump talked about it. They tried, but it seemed like they failed.

2:38:34Based on, yeah, I think I Trump said that he knows some things but he can't talk about them. Yeah, and then famously like Obama. And you know, this is the one thing that is still funny about Jimmy Kimmel, which you know, his level of funnyness has degraded. But he will still, he grilled Obama and Hillary Clinton about UFOs. Which is just a great thing to do, which we can all agree on. But don't you think that that was previously discussed because when you do one of those shows, they break down what you're going to talk about. Yeah, but I mean, why would they agree to it? Because they have a patented way of dismissing it and answer.

2:39:13But Obama said like I cannot reveal more. Right. I don't know. I think that they're where it's based on their behavior. It seems they're aware and interested in the subject. You know, you've got Hillary walking around holding the UFO book which we have on camera. With the desktop. There was one that she was photographed holding a well -known book about UFOs. And you know, because Podesta also has an interest in it. But I mean, yeah, but to get back to Woodbiden engage, would we be engaging in all this warfare if we knew aliens were kind of observing us? Right. It just seems it doesn't make sense.

2:39:54I mean, it's not that it needs to make sense. But if I were in office and I knew that, you know, there were these crafts that like we're watching us. We didn't really know what was going on. Like I would be focusing on that in trying to like clean up, you know, make new safer, clean up the planet. Like do things that, and even go talk to Putin and G about what's going on. Yeah, but it doesn't seem like you're ever going to stop this control of natural resources and this grasp of power that human beings have. And if you're engaged in that, and that's a gigantic part of the economy of international relations, why wouldn't they continue business as usual even with the knowledge that UFOs exist?

2:40:41I think I feel like it's a risk. It would be a risk to our relationship with the ET's. What if we don't have a real relationship? Well, but even if we don't, if we, if the behavior that we're exhibiting is just reckless, blow in each other up, destroying the planet, that's going to not make us look good to them in which case maybe they would start messing with us. I don't know. It just seems like it doesn't, if there's a higher level of like beings that are higher than us, I would not be risking playing these earthly games. Right, but how do you stop this? If you, if the whole purpose of this, like this war machine is this constant try attempt to control resources and consolidation of power, which it seems to be, this is the game that they're playing no matter what.

2:41:33And there's a lot of money involved in this game and there's a lot of influence in this game. This is, this is the game that the United States plays. But no matter what, they're going to stop playing this game because there's a space daddy out there watching us. I think that the space daddy is potentially the one thing that could make us stop, but it has a right, which makes me think that there is no space daddy. I, it makes me think they don't have a relationship with space daddy. This is what I think. I think they're just doing what they've always done and maybe in relation, they're just watching all this shit go on and they don't have real answers.

2:42:08I think they're, they're risking our, our planet by, you know, if the, if aliens were going to get hostile, I feel like they would much more likely get hostile to humans who could potentially fly out into the universe with nukes and, you know, spread our devastation. But that's very far in the future. But we don't really have that, that capability right now. I would imagine that if they're watching and they're observing that this is business as usual for the human race, they would, if they were going to intervene and step in, they would step in if we employed nuclear weapons and we were really at the risk of destroying ourselves.

2:42:45This is like a little slap in the face on the school yard. This is not as horrific as Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But imagine you're in office and you, you get verification, you know, you get the physical proof that you need to know. And it's super classified. Would that not, I mean, would that not change your whole reality and view on the world? What do you do with that? Do you go to the military industrial complex? Do you go to the pharmaceutical industry? Do you go to all these people say, all these people that are polluting rivers and all the, the, the fucking, the East Palestine thing? Do you say, hey, this can never happen again because you have phones are watching?

2:43:27Well, I think that you at least hit up world leaders on private channels and start having the conversation like, hey, guys, like, can we talk about this for a second? Because we're seeing these craft and it's occurring and we want to be on the same page because probably a good idea to do that. Yeah, but there's no evidence that it's a good idea to do that. There's no evidence that they're doing anything other than watching us. Well, but wouldn't it be a good idea for us to coordinate other players in the earth to understand our strategy? Sure. It would if it got to that, but it hasn't gotten to that.

2:44:10Right now it's gotten to the, oh, there's this thing that flies really fast and goes into the water and doesn't make a splash. The fuck is that? I don't know, but it's a lot of fucking oil and we got to get that oil and there's a lot of resources. We got to control those resources because if we don't, China will. If we don't, Putin will. If we don't, this is not. And we have to maintain our control and we're the world's leader and we're the this and the that. And it's just business as usual while this is all happening in this very weird way where the Pentagon discusses it but not very specifically and not gives you all the information and just says, I can't talk about it.

2:44:48But yeah, we do have a crashed UFO. And we have more video that we're having shared, which I know, Melan said that. Yeah. That they have higher res stuff. Yeah. They're specifically not sharing. Mine blowing stuff. I mean, just the fact, when I first heard that, that they have higher res stuff, like in my brain, I feel like I changed because that felt like another level of validation for this being more of a real thing. Not that I believed in that moment, but I feel like it's changed who I was a little bit because I felt more real. My concern is that it's a distraction and that this is all black ops stuff.

2:45:28And these are drones. And these are some things that we have the capabilities of utilizing and that we've created and that the United States citizens don't need to know about. And the world citizens don't need to know about. And this is a massive advantage that the people that are in control of these technologies have over everyone else wouldn't it be better to say these are from another world that we don't have any idea? I mean, to be honest, I sort of lean towards that option given how they're behaving because they're behaving more in a military application mode of this stuff. They're not behaving like in a human way.

2:46:11Whenever they say it's something, I'm like, why are you telling me that? You're telling me that because you want me to believe it's something. Why would I believe you when you lie about basically everything? If they lie about Nord Stream, they lie about the Gulf of Tonkin, they lie about all the different things they lie about. Why would they tell the truth about this? All of a sudden. Right. And the whole thing like, oh well, they wouldn't be messing with our own pilots in restricted airspace. Well, maybe they would. Right. Do that because that is how you create confusion. But that being said, I don't know.

2:46:46It's just like a bobblehead. I'm just betting for it every day. Well, I think we're basically just mentally masturbating and there's some real information. Well, there is, but there is. But there is. So, there we're back again. But there's so little. There's so little and so it's so inconclusive. And there's so many, you know, statements like maybe we can teach AI to like go and get the information for us. And what would AI? I wonder what chat GPD says about UFOs. Yeah. And we'll now that it's becoming autonomous, like, give it a run. What would you like to specifically ask it? Let's say our to your knowledge, are we being visited by beings or crafts from another world?

2:47:32How about that? Yeah. Beings or crafts from another world? It'll probably provide a bullet list of cases. That's guessing.

2:48:08Here it goes.

2:48:19So, let's say we're going to continue to explore the possibility of extraterrestrial life and the potential for interstellar travel. The search for extraterrestrial intelligence, CETI is an ongoing scientific effort to detect signs of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe while initiatives such as breakthrough, star shot, aim to develop technology for interstellar travel. And some of where, in summary, while there's no concrete evidence of extraterrestrial visitation, the search for extraterrestrial life and the possibility of interstellar travel remain topics of scientific interest and investigation.

2:48:53Oh, that's so weak. Yeah. I mean, they're not even aware of the most recent advances in the US government for how it's being looked into. You know, they're talking about, as of 2021 now. Yeah, so it's, why is it giving you information from two years ago when all this stuff really kind of broke? But broke in 2017, that was the New York Times article that claimed that the Pentagon, right, so that should be there. Yeah. I mean, yeah, man, no, I love it. All of these issues are so much fun to talk about. Do the most fun. Yeah. You have those the most fun to talk about. And it's just like we're, I'm just focused on trying to have more civil conversations about it.

2:49:40Yeah. Because it just seems like everybody just wants to jump on their team's side and just have shallow conversations. Like be able to pursue possibilities from the other side, steal man the other side, like, steal man, steal man, steal man constantly. That's what, like, that's neat. I didn't, why isn't that being taught in school? Right. I've never heard that until it was like 35. Right. Right. That's so true. Yeah, it's so important to be able to do that with every argument. I try to do that with things that I'm opposed to. I'll try to steal man things. It's important to really know why you think about things.

2:50:19And that's, that should be taught. It's not. You know, it's except the narrative. There's these Pentagon files are the same thing that the New York Times is doing with the Nord Stream stuff. So there's basically been a media blackout over these Pentagon files. Like it's being called the biggest US government leaks since Snowden. This happened in like the last couple of weeks. And Fox News even made a statement we're not going to cover this. We're not going to show the documents because like, serious blueprints for Ukraine were leaked. And did you hear about these? Yes. So explain that to people.

2:50:58I'm not, I'm definitely not an expert on this. It seems like a blueprint for setting up this war. Yes. Like very sensitive document. I mean, Kirby, one of the John Kirby, he's like Biden spokesperson. He's the guy who lied about the Nord Stream thing, you know, in the press room. And he came out and said to, he specifically told media, don't cover this leak, which is just a shocking thing to hear from, you know, government official telling the press not to cover a leak. Did he give a reason? I mean, national security and like, screwing up the whole Ukraine situation. With the truth. Yeah. Yeah.

2:51:47I mean, it's a huge strategic point. Don't come to the truth, guys. You're with us. Yeah. Meanwhile, we've been fucking you for decades. Yeah. Yeah, that money. But listen to us. So these leaks are, the leaks are escalating, which, you know, obviously you don't want it to be and this is why the government should start the process of like an actual disclosure, you know, opening up foia, freedom of information act much further, making it much setting us on a path to get the information. Because otherwise, we're going to get these, keep getting these leaks and it's going to be worse for them. Yeah.

2:52:27Because it's going to come out wily nilly and it's going to cause a lot more problems. It's going to completely erode trust. Right. Yeah. Yes. So like let's, you know, we can probably all get on board for a path to getting there. Yeah. So. Well, listen, man, um, I appreciate you and I really appreciate what you're doing and your thought process behind all this and that you're stuck to these ethics. You've stuck to them from the very beginning when you formulated this come to this company and you're still doing it. Thanks so much, right? Appreciate it very much. Yeah. Tell people it's mines .org.

2:53:04Mines .com or mines .org. Or you can get it on the App Store, just search mines, M -I -N -D -S, or if you want to support us, wefundor .com slash mines. Trying to be a community owned. My approach is probably, thank you so much. Bye everybody.