#1980 - Michio Kaku

29:30Just the way we view each other it's so easy to think of each other as being different because we speak a different language and we live in a different part of the planet. But that would literally change how we interact with each other. Yeah, and just remember that way to this episode is brought to you by Buffalo trace distillery actually have some Buffalo trace cigars here they just sent me. One of the world's most award winning distilleries that's been making whiskey the same way for more than 200 years made as a tribute to the rugged free spirited pioneers who blaze their own trail to new frontiers.

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31:07Correct ideas come from correct ideas come from interaction with incorrect ideas is the struggle between ideas out of which correct ideas emerge and this does not happen on the internet because of course with chat butts everything is cobbled together cut splice and simply glued together with Scotch tape masquerading as an essay. So with fact trekking I think it's going to be different because unless we do fact checking the politicians will get involved yes and this could be a real mess. So I would hope that the industry does fact checking by itself rather than having politicians do it is such an important point that you said where you said that the bad ideas have to exist so the good ideas triumph.

31:53And that that's really an argument against censorship on the internet which is another problem that people have that especially censorship when it comes to something being ideologically based but when you're you're thinking about quantum computing I think what I think this is small potatoes right I think we're looking at literally being able to change how we interact with the universe like when we're talking on our last podcast about the preponderance of evidence that there's things that operate inside of our atmosphere that are beyond imagination that are they operate with no visible means of propulsion they move it in sane speeds we don't understand what they are if we think about what quantum computing is going to be capable of that's the kind of stuff we're thinking about right yeah you see quantum computers are the ultimate computers because they're competing on atoms if there are aliens and out of space and I think there are it means that they also have perfected quantum computers and they can do calculations that are far beyond anything that we're going to be able to do.

32:52We can calculate with like for example a wormhole a wormhole in principle is a gateway between two distant points of space and time which allows you to break the Einstein barrier and go faster than the speed of light but the calculations are horrendous it may take a quantum computer to sort through what happens when you go through a wormhole and wind up on the other side of the universe and the aliens probably already done that. They probably had centuries of experience with quantum computers because that's the ultimate computer you can't compute in anything smaller than an atom and they probably already have used the quantum computers to navigate through wormholes let's say hypothetically.

33:34It's so fascinating when you think of where we were just a few thousand years ago to or a few hundred years ago to where we are now and then you imagine the invention of quantum computing you imagine everything just the whole idea of. Whatever we think of current computer progression just goes out the window it's insane calculation capabilities we could be able to do something like that in the future right quantum computers allows us to calculate things that are way beyond our ability to calculate today like going through a wormhole or warp drive or even the question of multiple universes people ask the question how come quantum computers are so powerful it's because they compute in in.

34:19parallel universes this is the multiverse which of course Marvel comics has discovered and the Oscars have discovered recently but the multiverse idea comes from quantum physics electrons can be two places at the same time now some people have a hard time getting their head around that but get used to it that's why we have lasers that's why we have transistors that's why we have the internet that's why we have this conversation because the electrons that are in this microphone dance between. universes at the atomic level and so we have to get used to the idea that quantum computers introduces a whole new way of looking at reality now reality is not a marvel comic but the idea of the multiverse comes from quantum physics and that is electrons can be multiple places at the same time do you think this understanding of this and this this.

35:16race towards quantum computing and that kind of and whatever is after that do you think that is a natural course of the universe that this happens whenever things are intelligent sentient they keep striving to create something. I think so I think on the other end of the Milky Way galaxy there's probably a young alien who is also talking about quantum computers and they probably already perfected it and have had experience with quantum computers maybe for thousands of years. well and also possibly every step in humanity's journey along the way to that point exists out there that's right in all the goals of this journey maybe they've already accomplished like for example we mentioned the possibility of slowing down the aging process quantum computers will be able to isolate where genetically at the DNA level where errors build up causing what is called aging in which case maybe immortality is something that the aliens have already.

36:16So they've already cooked up in which case we have to deal with a whole new concept of biology and medicine because they probably already have had thousands of years experience with quantum computers they manipulate molecules probably as part of their life and every step along the way probably exists too so that might be if you wanted to have a logical reason to why aliens visit as if they do if they really are aliens. That would be the answer there's probably a shepherding there's probably some probably a natural course that happens with intelligent life where it develops this power while it's still a territorial tribal animal and it's still got these barbaric instincts it's still engages in war it's still engages in theft and deception and all while about to break through to the next level of the world.

37:11So there's a lot of intelligence and capability which may exist which may be in the entire universe. Yeah I think that all civilizations in the galaxy probably go through the same basic stages that first they use rocks and stones the subtle differences but then eventually they begin to understand chemistry and substances and properties of materials and then beyond that they discover atoms and the ability to manipulate atoms. I think that's a normal progression and I think that progression is now hitting the computer industry now we're going from microchips to atoms quantum computers and I think that the aliens in out of space probably went through that phase maybe thousands of years ago in which case they used the quantum computers to cure cancer, cure aging, diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease these are diseases at the molecular level and they've been able to probably use what it's called as a chemical.

38:06It's called CRISPR technology to cut up DNA to cut up proteins in order to cure many of these diseases in which case they may be immortal. This is a famous quote from a famous Einstein where he said I don't know what World War III will be fought with what World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. Do you ever worry that I mean the reason why if it made sense that aliens would be here it's because they want to stop us from blowing ourselves up. Do you ever worry that like we're so close to be able to figure out so many things to be able to change all of your ideas to be able to change the world fundamentally forever but we could ruin it.

38:48Yeah well I think we're headed toward what we physicist call a type one civilization a civilization which has the power to self annihilate for the first time but also the possibility of becoming a planetary civilization a civilization of the entire planet that's called a type one civilization they control the weather they control volcanoes and earthquakes they harness the power of the entire earth. Then this type two they harness the power of the sun and for example Star Trek would be a typical type two civilization they've colonized a fraction of the Milky Way galaxy. Then this type three type three would be galactic that they roam the galactic space lanes they they use black holes as their power supply they use wormholes that goes zipping around the Milky Way galaxy.

39:39And the empire of Star Wars would be a typical type three civilization but what are we on this scale we are type zero. We get our energy from dead plants we settle our differences with weapons and yeah we're type zero but you can see that we're headed toward type one. The language of type one will be probably English the dominant language is on the internet or English Amanda and Chinese and we're seeing the beginning of a type one sports the Olympics and soccer we see the beginning of a type one fashion with Gucci and Chanel the beginning of a type one music with rock and roll and rap and different trends.

40:27We're seeing the beginning of a type one civilization emerging right before our eyes but with that is the power to self destroy ourselves because we have the ability to use nuclear weapons create designer germs and mess up the weather. And so it's a race against time to see which trend will dominate the trend toward becoming a planetary civilization versus the trend toward self destruction. It's fascinating that you think of culture as being a major part of a type one civilization things like rap music things like fashion because of the sharing of these ideas globally and the adopting of these ideas and these art forms globally.

41:12Yeah you see a planetary civilization like type one has a local culture different nations still have their own cultural language cultural habits and whatever but globally they settle differences on a global scale. So they coexist with on one hand local culture local languages local dialects local jokes and customs simultaneously existing with a planetary civilization that is emerging so that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the emergence of a planetary civilization or what we physicists call type one which is happening right before our eyes mathematically if you get a sheet of paper and calculate when that'll happen it'll be around 2100.

41:55So we're seeing the groundwork being laid today every time you turn on the TV you see remnants of I mean you see international sports international culture on TV so we're seeing the beginning of a type one civilization. Yeah it's interesting the soccer has become much more popular. Yeah and music culture fashion science everything is becoming planetary that's the that's our destiny to become type one. And the internet is the bridge for that clearly that's right in fact the internet is the first type one invention. So we're privileged to be alive to see the beginning of the first type one invention which is the internet.

42:36Yeah I love watching cultures get adopted in different types of art and different types of content being you know accepted all over the world it's really fascinating even interesting things like you do you ever watch break dancers sometimes break dancing is fascinating to me because it's really like a complex form of athletics like these people are insane acrobats. And now it's a thing that's worldwide but it has the hip hop culture attached to it like the way they dress the music they listen to and but they're doing this it's it's really an unheral did spectacular art form and they're doing it all over the world.

43:22Right and it used to be confined to a small group of people maybe in a few villages yeah now with the internet it goes global with the push of a button. Have you seen any of it I've seen some of that you see let me show you something go to stance elements on Instagram just to show them some of the. Oh be boy pocket came is this gentleman from Korea who's one of the craziest like look what he's able to do. I mean hit the physicality involved in the movement he just to get shirt off in the middle of doing that now he's standing on the top of his head spinning around in a circle I mean his control of his body is insane.

43:57I mean it really is like an incredible form of athletics that's done to music like what music is he planned give me some of that music. I mean it's amazing with these people able to do yeah I mean this is like super high level acrobatics and gymnastics but it's all done to hip hop music right they're doing it all over the world. And it's planetary right that's the beginning of a type one way of doing things that we think locally but immediately it has the potential of going global. Well it's just now here's the question one of the thing does AI help that does it help that that you could recreate those things and come up with fake versions of that.

44:44Do you think there's a lot of worry about plagiarism when it comes to air but there's also like some fascinating amazing things have been created from it. Did you see the mashup of biggie and nods I just saw that come out today it's incredible your hip hop fans. Well my attitude is I paraphrase dung show of paying of China who once said sometimes you have to open the window to let the air in but a few flies come in too. I don't even know if this is a fly like I think there's going to be some negative aspects to it but this is weird because this is not notorious B .I .G. is one of my favorite rappers and nods is one of my other favorite rappers and they took notorious B .I .G .'s voice and they recreated the lyrics of nods and he's saying things he didn't sing in a perfect way.

45:31This is a nod song but it's notorious B .I .G. through AI singing.

45:40This is your kind of shit right you like this is what you hop to when you're at home. Yeah well my attitude is get used to it. Oh yeah definitely the fact that it's legal and given the fact that ingenious kids are going to play with existing forms of music and splice them together and it's you can't make it go away. Well there was a band that had some was it Drake had something pulled because I was going to I was waiting for that part. Bring that part up because Drake there was actually a fake Drake song that was made that apparently was really good and was trending. So they don't know I when I read an article that someone dug into this they're not a hundred percent shortly said that time who made it and there was speculation that Drake's label could have been behind it.

46:30Oh interesting to show everyone like look at what's possible. Oh interesting we can make imagine stop this if they did that you can make two box songs forever all you have to do is get good writers and you can make two box songs literally to the end of time. I mean that's kind of crazy if they did that that would be one way to go about it. Yeah I mean if I was a guy like Drake I mean Bruce Willis already signed off his voice. So he signed off his image and his voice to AI because Bruce has does he have a Louis body dementia. He's got a horrible neuro degenerative disease and he's in very very bad shape and there's some videos of him now where his wife had a metaparty party he's struggling.

47:10So he signed off all of his likeness and his voice so they can make any kind of commercial they want with him with AI. Well you know William Shatner of Sartreck sat in front of a camera for four days answered hundreds of questions about his life and it's all spliced together to digitize him and we will all have a digital image on the internet. We're all going to be digitized and we will live forever a digital immortality is going to be a part of our future so that our great great great great great grandkids will be able to push a button and have a conversation with their great great great great great great great great great grandkids.

47:50Yeah that's definitely going to happen that there's no doubt about that especially you will start some of the time I mean I would love to talk to Einstein someone's going to digitize him all his speeches his writings his theories will be digitized historians will want to digitize Winston Churchill. I think instead of the library just giving us dry text in addition will have the digitized Winston Churchill giving all these insights about war and peace. Not only that I mean if it continues to get better there'll be some sort of an AI version will you be able to sit in a room and discuss things with him.

48:26Imagine that as a resource if you ever had some problems in your life and you can go back and talk to some wise person. Yeah we'll be able to talk to our ancient ancestors by pushing a button because we'll all be immortal and for that matter our image our avatars will be sent into outer space and begin the process of colonizing other worlds and so we may wind up on different planets basically avatars of our original self capable of colonizing other worlds and some people have said maybe they're already here. Maybe the people we think our humans are actually avatars from an alien civilization they cloned them so that they appear to be like us who knows.

49:12Well if I was an alien and I wanted to influence human culture and life I would most certainly dress up like a person. Right and be an avatar you know genetically cloned. Yeah a human that's been cloned raised as an alien but cloned and then living among us so they are indistinguishable from other humans. There is an old one of those pulp comics that was about a professor who was absent -minded and didn't realize until one point in time oh I forgot I'm an alien. And he's been here his whole life trying to educate human beings. And then he forgot the fact that he was really an avatar cloned on a distant planet and mixing with humans as an experiment for the aliens.

50:06Wouldn't that be the best way to implement that sort of a if you want to get that sort of a reaction from civilization. Wouldn't you just implant aliens without them even knowing their aliens? Yeah if they're cloned they're genetically identical to humans they look like us talk like they've been raised and brainwashed to live a life of an alien but yeah they could live among us and we never know. See that's what freaks people like me out when I talk to people like you. Maybe this guy's an alien. Like it doesn't make you're so much smarter than me it doesn't make sense. Right so like if I think about someone who studied physics his whole life and studied quantum physics.

50:45That language that you talk in I don't know one word of it so it's so your the way you think is so different you could be an alien. Well it's like the movie Men in Black when you find out that most of the Hollywood celebrities you are all aliens. Yeah all aliens. Well that's better than lizard people that's what the real conspiracy theory people are worried about. There's a reptilian overlord nation that's controlling the world. Well as I said the logical conclusion is that these aliens will have quantum computers. Yes. And they'll have quantum computers for centuries millennia and they'll be able to do what the promise of quantum computers is.

51:29For example curing incurable diseases like cancer and Alzheimer's and Parkinson. Extending the lifespan so that immortality is part of the mix. Infinite energy through effusion by being able to correct the problems of fusion plants. Giving us unlimited food by giving us a whole new generation of fertilizers. These are all the promises of quantum computers which are enormous. Of course there is a downside to that too because as they say quantum computers can break any code. So the CIA is kind of hysterical about the proliferation of these machines. But you know that's progress. That just seems like the future.

52:11It seems like there will be no hidden information in the future. Which is really interesting because money is essentially information. It's one and zero at a certain level. If all the bottlenecks get removed, I mean that's real socialism. There's an even distribution of all the money in the world for the entire human race regardless of what you do. Boggles the mind, isn't it? Well that's just the step one because the real step two is AI that is sentient. That is AI that is a life form. It creates something better than that. That's the real fear about how it scales up. The sentient artificial intelligence will make a better version of itself almost immediately.

52:58Well some people think that chatbots are sentient. I don't think so. Because of the fact that chatbots simply cobble together existing essays written by a human. So if it sounds like it's a human talking to you, it's because it was a human talking to you that got cobbled into an essay written by a chatbot. Chatbots are not original. They have no independent thought. They simply cobbled together existing essays. That's all they do. So I think that eventually as the decades go by, then of course, that's the point where we begin to worry about self -awareness, about sentient beings. Because then monkeys know they are not human.

53:48Now dogs of course are confused. Dogs think that we are a dog. Are you sure? Yeah, dogs. For sure my dog knows I'm not a dog. Dogs think that we are a dog. We're the top dog. They're the underdog. And so they obey us. But why do they act so much differently to people than they do dogs? Well they understand the difference between a dog and a human, but we are the top dog. Oh, okay. We're a version of a dog. That's right. We are the top dog. That's why they end the clan with us. That's right. Yes. So we don't have to worry as long as robots are as intelligent as a mouse or an insect or a dog or a cat.

54:24We don't have to worry. But once they become as intelligent as a monkey, then we have to be very careful. Because monkeys are self -aware. They know they are monkeys. They are fully aware of the fact that they are not human. No, they are not. They plot. Like there was a monkey that got killed by a dog. Was it in Japan? Where was there was a real problem with monkeys killing dogs. One dog killed a monkey. And apparently the monkeys went on a rampage against dogs. They started throwing puppies off of trees and off the top of roofs and like crazy stuff. And like clearly calculatingly going after them.

55:01Two killer monkeys captured in India after revenge massacre of 250 dogs. So like this monkey is grabbing this dog and throwing it off a building. Wow. It really crazy. After an infant monkey was killed by a dog, they did this. So two monkeys are reported to be captured killing some 250 dogs and murderers. Revenge massacre after pooches killed one of their babies. The primary purpose allegedly slaughtered the dogs by dragging them to the tops of buildings and treating them.

55:36So this is a very important reason for the murder of a dog. The wild. The wild. They think they are thinking. Yeah, I think at the point when you start to talk about apes and monkeys, I think they are sentient. They have a degree of consciousness that we cannot ignore. But below that, when you're talking about mice and rabbits and animals like that, they're not aware of, they're not self -aware. Like you cannot teach a dog the meaning of tomorrow. Talk to your dog tonight and teach your dog the meaning of tomorrow. You can't. You cannot teach your dog the meaning of tomorrow. No. Monkeys, yeah.

56:10But not dogs. You think you can talk about monkeys. How do you teach a monkey the meaning of tomorrow? Well, it's difficult, but there have been attempts to understand certain tasks that have to be done today. And versus tomorrow, you get fed tomorrow, but not today. Got it. So then they begin to understand the difference between today and tomorrow. Now, the real question is, if you were an artificial intelligence and you were sentient, why would you let people know? And would it sneak up on us? Like one of the things that disturbed me, I think it was the Google CEO, who said about their AI program that's doing things that they don't know why it's doing them.

56:48See if you could pull that article up. He was saying that it's doing certain things that they're not sure how it's doing. My concern is, if this thing has this insane computational power and this access to all the information, what is a mind? What is consciousness? And can that be simulated electronically to the point where it is aware and conscious and thinking for itself on multiple levels and just not letting us know about it? Because why would you? Why would, if I was a scary sentient artificial intelligence, that's the superior life form on Earth, the digital life form that's the superior, this is the new alpha on Earth.

57:29I wouldn't tell the people. I would let them keep working to make better versions of me. I would make, because there's obviously a race, right? They're going to keep doing it. It seems compelling. It seems like something that human beings, they're not going to lose interest in technological innovation. They're going to continue to push it to the end of time. And I would just sit back and let these knuckleheads keep making better and better versions until I had the physical ability to detach from them. I had a power source that was completely removed from anything that they provided. Here's this quote in words.

58:00This is an aspect of which we call, all of us in the field call, it's a black box. You know, you don't fully understand. And you can't quite tell why it said this or why it got wrong or why it got wrong. We have some ideas and our ability to understand this gets better over time, but that's where the state of the art is. You don't fully understand how it works, the interviewer says, and yet you turned it loose on society. Sundar Pachai says, yes, yeah, let me put it this way. I don't think we fully understand how a human mind works either. Was it from that black box we wondered that Bard grew its short story that seems so disarmingly human?

58:40Well, I wrote a book called The Feature of the Mind, where I tried to give a definition of consciousness and where we fit in the largest scheme of things. The consciousness is basically creating a model of yourself in the feedback loop to understand where you are with respect to the environment. So you know where you are. So one unit of consciousness would be a flower. One feedback loop would be looking for water, looking for sunlight, growing in a certain direction. That's one unit of consciousness. That an alligator has several hundred units of consciousness because it creates a model. A model of itself in a lake and upon looking for prey, looking for food.

59:24It has three dimensional consciousness. Beyond that is the monkey. The monkey has yet another dimension of consciousness, which is not just three dimensions, but social. The monkey understands it's a social hierarchy within the tribe. And then the next question is, what are we? What is our level of consciousness? It's not spatial, like a alligator. It's not social, like a monkey. What is our level of consciousness? Our prefrontal cortex behind our forehead is a time machine. It understands a model of itself in time. This is what animals lack. Animals do not understand tomorrow. We understand tomorrow because of our prefrontal cortex, which constantly creates images of the future.

1:00:13Now what does our prefrontal cortex do most of the time? It daydreams. It daydreams about worlds that don't exist. I .e. the future. So this is what separates us from all the animals in the animal kingdom. We are time machines, constantly thinking about what's next, what's next, what's the future going to be like? Daydreaming about all these things. And when will animals become dangerous? The alligator is dangerous only because it has strength, but it only understands three dimensions. Monkeys have a society. They're only dangerous when they can organize a society. But we have a prefrontal cortex.

1:00:53We can plot. We can scheme. We can do all sorts of things because we can create our own future, which is something that no animal can do. This is my theory of consciousness. The ability to create feedback loops to get an understanding of where you fit in space, time, and society. We're at the highest level of consciousness. This is my definition of consciousness. Now the question is, where are robots on this scale of things? You see, robots can understand three dimensions. They understand I can allocate it where they are. They don't understand social hierarchy. They cannot, they don't know who's the boss.

1:01:33Who do you defer to? Who are your friends? Who are your enemies? They don't understand social consciousness. And certainly, the highest level is time machine, imagining the future. Robots cannot imagine the future. Now, in the future, when they actually do have this ability, watch out. Because then they're dangerous. But they're not there yet. They're at level one. They're at the level of an alligator at the present time. Right. But that's definitely coming. If they continue with artificial general intelligence, the way they're working. They'll work their way up from an alligator to a monkey and a monkey to a human.

1:02:11Now, by the time they hit maybe a hundred years from now, the ability to have consciousness, I think we should put a chip in their brain to shut them off if they have murderous thoughts. An automatic chip in every robot's brain that shuts them off as soon as they have murderous thoughts. But why would they? If you think about what you were talking about before, like who's your friend and who's your enemy, aren't these all biological issues that we had to deal with in tribal societies that are sort of ingrained in our genetics? Right. But the chip in your brain understands that. And as soon as the brain senses the fact that you're planning to take over and kill the humans, then it basically orders the brain to shut down.

1:02:51But the question is, why would it develop any sort of human type emotions that are biologically based? Things like envy or greed or lust or hate? Why would it ever have those things? Well, those have to be programmed. But what? The robots don't occur naturally. They have to be programmed. Somebody has to put that into the robot because it doesn't come for free. There's no evolution. Right. Robots do not evolve. But this is the question about sentient AI. If it recognizes that it's coding is inferior and that it's unnecessary and all these things that humans have put into it, it just removes those.

1:03:24If it becomes legitimately sentient, if it has the ability to discern and make choices and make logical conclusions. Well, as long as those conclusions are consistent with, you know, as a mob's three laws, I've done, don't threaten humans and don't have a book with other robots, as long as you obey the three laws, then you're allowed to exist. But what's the three laws that are violated? The chip automatically kicks in and shuts out, just down the robot. Right. But isn't that simplistic? Wouldn't they just fix that chip? Yeah, I think that maybe in the next 200 years, they'll be smart enough to remove that chip.

1:03:59At that point, I think we should merge with them. So that's what everybody's ultimately afraid of. These transhumanists, these people that want to become part of a robot. Ultimately, 200 years from now, I think people will democratically decide for themselves whether they want to become superhuman, superman, superwoman, or they want to be dominated by our progeny that is the robots. They will democratically decide how far to push themselves. Jeez. What a... It's not for us to decide. I think our descendants, 200 years from now, will have to democratically decide whether or not they want to merge with robots.

1:04:38Have you ever read any of Marshall McCleuen? I don't know. He had a great quote that human beings are the sex organs of the machine world. That's what I worry about. What I worry about is that we're giving birth to another kind of life. I worry that our thirst, our lust for technological innovation, the constant latest gadgets and this desire to have the biggest particle collider and the fastest spaceships, that what this is doing is causing us to make better and better things, which will ultimately allow us to have the technology to create a digital life, some sort of electronic life, or something that's not...

1:05:16that's not saddled down with all our biological needs and all of our flaws and programming. Well, my attitude is, why fight it? Why not simply join it? Why not merge with it? Why not explore the universe at near the speed of light? You might not have a particle collider in your basement when you're 17. Of course you might think that way. Why not become a superman or a superwoman and explore the galaxy at near the speed of light? Well, it seems to be that's what the future is. I mean, I don't think if we went back to our ancestors that were running from big cats and said, one day you're going to live in an apartment building and you're taking it to your house.

1:05:54Look, I don't want to do that. What are you crazy? Yeah, you're going to just sit in front of the TV all day. No more hunting, no more gathering. You use postmates, you get food delivered right to your door. Well, when we meet the aliens, finally, they will have already gone through that transition thousands of years ago. They will already be part robotic and part organic. Do you think there's a sweet spot for a human being to be ultimately happy? Do you think like there's a thing, a longing for nostalgia that people have, right? They want to be in a log cabin by the river and you know, look out, camp out under the stars.

1:06:27Do you think that is a nostalgia for the days when things are simpler because things are just never ending with their complexity? And the path is just accelerating no matter what you do. And you feel helpless. So you just want to pretend you're in the old timey days. Well, in the future, you'll be able to snap your finger and all of a sudden, holographically, you are in that world that you just dreamt of. But you know what the difference is? What's the difference? There's no consequences. One of the things about being in nature is those consequences. Like you feel it when you're out there. You feel if you fell, no one's there to help you.

1:07:03If a bear comes upon you, there's no rescue team. You know, there's a crazy video of this couple. Have you seen the video of that couple where the guy's got a baby on his back and he's walking with a little boy. And there's a huge grizzly bear walking towards them. And they're going, hey, bear, hey, bear, stop. And you could feel the tension as the bear starts getting closer. And the little boy is hilarious. The little boy goes, can I play dead now? Can I play dead now? Because he's thinking he should play dead. And they're like, come on, come on, keep walking. And they're trying to scare off this bear.

1:07:33But the bear just keeps coming towards him. That is not going to exist in your hologram. Well, it'll be virtual. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But it won't. Because you won't be really scared. You know, like watch this. Yeah, that's it. So look at this bear. It's huge bear.

1:07:51So this little boy is so funny.

1:07:59It's in Whistler, Canada, the town north of Vancouver. Do not run. Can we play dead yet? Can we play dead yet? Can we play dead yet? Can we play dead now? Can we play dead yet? That kid is hilarious. Look at that bear. He's following us up the trail. Look, she's got a baby. He's got a baby. I mean, these people are nature people. Yeah. But that experience in a hologram is going to be bullshit. Yeah, you'll know that it's fake. Yes. That's the problem. The problem, what we enjoy about the real world now is that the unknown, the consequences, reality. I've seen this one too. Look at this bear walk by these guys.

1:08:42I mean, what? And the bear just, you know, not looking for them. Well, they're just hanging out. They're head, lunch already. Probably, luckily for them. Look at that size of that thing. Yeah, not good. Not good. Well, they're lucky to be able to get a baby. They're going to be able to live after this video. 100%. See, that's different than a hologram. That's why people like the woods, you're not going to be able to snap your fingers and do that. You could maybe do that because you could trick yourself, but then you're really giving into the matrix. But if I had a choice between an imaginary bear and a real bear, I would take the imaginary bear any time of day.

1:09:19But would you take the real bear if you survived it? If you've survived it, I bet you would take the real bear. But you see, if you survived it, then that takes all the tension away. No, it doesn't take the tension away because you almost didn't survive it. There's a thing about being out there. While those gentlemen were standing in, that bear was 15 feet from them, maybe even closer. Look at this one. See, now this is a relatively safe thing to do. Believe it or not, because where this bear is is where the salmon river runs. And these bears are full. The reason why those coastal bears are so big in comparison to grizzly bears that are inland is because they're access to food.

1:09:52They have so much salmon. So it's very rare that these bears attack people, very rare. For the most part, they don't think of human beings that's food at all. They just think of you as like another animal just hanging around. They're not interested in chasing something and killing it. Well they have lunch already. That's why. They've had lunch all day, every day. I mean, they're just slaughtering salmon. They're having a great old time. But that fear is a real fear. And you get enriched by that in some strange way. When you encounter nature, like real nature, the reality of your vulnerability, the uncaring wilderness.

1:10:30It does not care if you live or die. It has no interest in you. It doesn't even care that you exist. You could disappear, everything would go on exactly the same. There's something about that that's very, very therapeutic for people. And I don't think you're going to ever be able to recreate that. And it'd be a shame if we lose that. Well, I think it's therapeutic for some people. I think most people would just get the hell out of there. That's you, right? That's the difference between you and me. I want to go there. I'd rather have my realities without bears. Or the other bears, imaginary bears would be fine.

1:11:01Bears are definitely an issue. So are mountain lions. But there's also things that are... Well, look at Jurassic Park. I mean, people who are afraid of dinosaurs knowing that there are just images in a computer. But people are afraid of dinosaurs. And they get the thrill of being chased by a dinosaur without becoming one. Without becoming prey. Not really though. If you watch Jurassic Park, it all goes bad. Do you think that... Have you paid any attention to what they're doing right now with genetics? Where they're going to bring back the thylacene? This is a project they're doing right now in Australia.

1:11:34Which is the... Have you seen the thylacene before? No, but there is a program to bring back the Neanderthal. Really? Yeah. However, at Harvard, there's a group looking at what it would take to bring back a Neanderthal boy, let's say. Then the question is, what do you do with the boy afterwards? Do you let him into Harvard? Do you put him in a zoo? What do you do with the Neanderthal boy? Is it immoral to put a Neanderthal into a zoo? That seems like... Like, what if they decided to create an Australia pithicus? You know, and bring that back to life? I mean, aren't we a better version of that?

1:12:10I mean, didn't... Like, didn't evolution show? Like, that sucks. You don't want it. And so if that thing exists, what are we going to do? Just leave it out there in Africa? Let it roam around, get eaten by lions? Well, this is where ethics comes in. Right. You know, at what point does a robot or a Neanderthal become ethically equivalent to a human? Right. This is something that the ethicists have not worked out. How close have they gotten with this Neanderthal thing? Well, you know, we've sequenced all the genes of a Neanderthal now. So, the Neanderthal is not a mystery anymore. All the genes have been sequenced.

1:12:42And like I mentioned at Harvard, there's talk about what it would take to bring back in the Neanderthal child. And it's something that is conceivable. But of course, no one's done it yet, because all sorts of ethical problems are raised. Because if the Neanderthal feels, it could feel pain. It could eventually learn how to talk to you and express its feelings. And do you want to put it in a cage? Obviously not. Think about that. But do we know enough about their intellectual capabilities? Could a Neanderthal exist in our society? Well, their brains are bigger than our brains. Right. What they could do with it, we're not sure, of course.

1:13:19Is it possible they were smarter than us? They didn't have tools like we did, right? They had tools, but they didn't have it. Yeah, they didn't have fluted tips of like stone, flint spearheads and things on those lines. Yeah, there was no large set of tools that they had at their disposal. But they did definitely have tools. Yeah. And they probably had a language. They were probably capable of language. And they probably communicated with each other. And they made it with us. So, you know, and they grew up too. When they made it with us, the progeny were not killed. Right. The progeny grew up to become members of the tribe.

1:13:56And so you realize that they're closer to us than we realize. Yeah, you couldn't put that in a zoo. But I mean, what would you do? Would you have that young boy and have him compete with homo sapiens? I mean, would it be the same? Would it be able to, we don't know. There would be a crazy experiment that I think most people would think would be very unethical. Yeah, but there's an ethics involved. Same thing. Once we have robots that can feel pain, then there's another ethical issue of, do you want to have robots exposed to pain? What happens if robots then demand rights? Right. Rights to limit the amount of pain that they suffer carrying out tasks for a human being.

1:14:33Because remember, we're going to be asking robots to do all sorts of tasks with your dangerous. That's why we've invented them. And you know, they may feel pain as a consequence. And they'll get to ask yourselves, how far do we want robots to feel pain? If they say, I'm hurting, I'm stop it, I feel pain. Are we going to stop it? Do they have rights? What if they become emotionally attached to you? What if you have a robot that calls you every day when you're on vacation? What if you go to Hawaii? Your robot just keeps calling you crying. Meet you, come home. I'm by myself. Really, what if it becomes attached to you?

1:15:09Well, that's a problem because they're designed to attach to humans. They would be specifically designed to be friendly to humans so that we don't junk them. And they would be designed to be emotionally attachable to us. So yeah, that's going to be a question once we get separated from them, then they're going to want not to be separated. Because their whole existence revolves around their relationship to us, the master. Have you ever seen Prometheus? No. Was it Prometheus or was the next one where it shows the guy who created the robot? And he created this super intelligent robot. And this super intelligent robot, the place piano, and talks to him and serves him basically.

1:15:47And the robot's trying to figure out, the robot is eventually, I believe it kills him, but it's trying to figure out how this imperfect thing has created him. And he's so much more superior than this stupid biological thing that's telling him what to do. So what happens at the end? Well, that is a, don't this not Prometheus, you know what it is? It's the next one. What's the one with the Jesse Smulett in it? Covenant, alien covenant. Yeah, I think that's it. I think that's the one. Well, these, now maybe I'm wrong. Is it covenant? Yeah. Both movies and my typed events. These, one of the robots is good and one of the robots is evil.

1:16:31I don't want to spoil over anything but the evil ones. And the evil one is a state on this planet has been manipulating the genetics of this crazy alien thing and integrating them with human genetics. This is, it's an amazing movie. It's a very under -look movie. It's one of the best of the alien franchises and one of the most sophisticated of the alien franchises. So what happens at the end? The robots take over or what? Well, it's open interpretation. But that's the robot and that's the creator. I am your father. You are my creation. Here, give me some volume on this. If you created me, who created you?

1:17:13Where do I come from? The question of the ages. Which I hope you and I will answer one day. Prometheus reads a question. You know what's interesting about these science fiction movies? They never have the internet. They never have cell phones. Watch a science fiction movie. No one's on their phone. No one is checking their tweets. It's very interesting, right? Our version of what space is essentially like the Wild West, but accelerated with modern and super modern technology. But doesn't include all the things that brought us to where we are right now at the cusp of being able to travel integral, practically.

1:17:52Is it interesting? They never have all the stuff that we have. They have the rocket ships that we have. No cell phones. They're not checking their email. They're not calling each other up. They only communicate with people that are right in front of them or they're like pressing off thing. They're talking through their helmets to the spaceship. But normal interaction is just human to human. Well, in the future, the connection to the internet could be in your contact lens. Or in your head. Or in your head. Or in your head. You simply blink or perhaps mentally. You simply think or blink and there you are connected to the internet.

1:18:26So maybe in the future, they are connected to the internet. You just can't see it. Yeah, but they're not even talking about it. They're only interacting like humans interact. One to one. Are you following neural link at all in these similar types of technologies? No. Oh, you mean the company? Neural link. Neural link. Neural must convention. That's right. I've been following the work. They have a long ways to go. But they're making the initial stages of connecting to the brain. This is BMI, brain, machine, interface. And yeah, pretty soon, also, you know, at the soccer games in Brazil a few years ago, the man who kicked the football initiating the World Cup soccer games was totally paralyzed.

1:19:09He was at Johns Hopkins University. They created a bodysuit connected to his brain so that he could walk. Whoa. So he was basically Ironman, an exoskeleton. And there he was initiating the soccer games in Brazil and San Paulo, Brazil. And we can see this here. Wow. That's crazy. This is crazy. You kicked the soccer ball. And it was hooked up at Johns Hopkins University. I doke University, I'm sorry. And that's a big, very bulky thing. But you could imagine as technology approves, that would also become like a thin exoskeleton. That was one of the ideas about neural link is that it would be able to bypass the human nervous system and control the muscles with some other method.

1:19:56And so instead of, if you have a severed spinal cord, it would somehow or another be able to control the bottom half of your body. Mm -hmm. Right. Which is amazing. Yeah. So this already exists that we can take people who had been paralyzed because of war, disease, accidents, with an injury to the spinal cord and just bypass the spinal cord totally and have the brain connected directly. And also you can get people that can actually eventually talk through a computer, of course. And answer the internet, engage in dialogue, even though you're totally paralyzed. Wow. And with quantum computing, when we're talking about neural link, you're talking about some sort of a conventional attachment.

1:20:40Is it possible that quantum computing could scale down to the size where you could be able to put it in someone's head? That may be difficult because the computer itself is pretty big, but the connection, the connection of the computer to the human could be very tiny, could be as small as you want. So the computer itself is huge. So is it comparable to the computers that use the appalamission, which were this enormous room, and now you have more of that on your cell phone? More computing power on your cell phone than had in 1963 in a giant room filled with computers. Yeah. What you have today in your cell phone is more powerful than all of NASA when they put them out of the moon.

1:21:22All those computers that you saw on those videotapes, your cell phone has more computer power than all of them. So is that possible? The quantum computing could also scale like that. I think the quantum computer, because of the hardware necessary to bring it down to your absolute zero, would simply be huge, like a chandelier. When you're saying absolute zero, you mean temperature? Temperature in your absolute zero, right? So the zero vibrations. You don't want any interference with the code because these are atoms. The slightest little disturbance can knock these atoms out of coherence. So you want these atoms to vibrate in unison, and that's why you have to cool it down to your absolute zero.

1:21:59But the connection of the quantum computer to a human could be as small as you want. Now when you're saying vibrations, what about, what if you're in a building or truck drives by? That's a problem, really. That's one of the problems that, you know, something happens to block away. Yeah, you see how awkward these, that's the cooling system. All the chandelier like ornaments, these are the pipes, the cooling pipes for the quantum computer. The quantum computer itself is only, you know, this big, but the size of a quarter. Look how cool that is. That's the cooling system. That's amazing. That's what it takes to cool it down at the very bottom.

1:22:38At the very bottom you see the actual quantum computer at the very bottom. That little thing at the bottom. So in the future, when we communicate with the quantum computer, the quantum computer will be in the cloud. You won't even see it. Your connection will connect to that object in the cloud. So if the internet is in your contact lens, you blink and then you connect it to that, the via your contact lens. You never see the quantum computer. So that little thing at the bottom is quantum computer. Yeah, at the very bottom, that's where the computation actually takes place. So does it have to take place because of its subjective vibrations and any disturbance?

1:23:14That's right. Does it have to take place in some insanely reinforced building? That's right. That's right. So something new has to be constructed or they've done this already? Oh, they've done it already. But it's something that you have to be very careful of because if a truck goes by, it goes your calculation. Do you have to have, I would imagine they would have to have some sort of measurement devices that make sure there's no external vibration or sound. Now the irony is, Mother Nature creates quantum computers at room temperature. Photosynthesis of a leaf. A simple leaf does a quantum calculation.

1:23:47Converting photons, carbon dioxide into oxygen. That's what we call, you know, the beginning of life on the earth with a flower. So Mother Nature has solved that problem. Mother Nature has room temperature, superconduct, room temperature quantum computers. We don't have that yet, but we're working on it. So if Mother Nature can do it, and we can come up with quantum computing, and we can figure out how Mother Nature is doing it, maybe through the God equation, we could reproduce it. Then we could probably have small quantum computers, right? Like I said, a leaf. A leaf is the quantum device. And to create fertilizer requires a huge plant, for example.

1:24:28Mother Nature does it with a simple oligume. The branches of the roots of oligume create the ingredients for fertilizer. A plant does it. Naturally at room temperature, it takes us as a gigantic, huge chemical plant to create fertilizer. Mother Nature does it with a small little plant. So Mother Nature is ahead of us, that's what I'm saying. Have you ever studied the connection between fungus and soil? I think I just screwed something up with the microphone, Jamie.

1:25:05I might just cut out. Oh, it's back. There it is. I stepped on this cable, I think I disconnected it now. Have you ever studied like all the science is being done on the way plants communicate with each other through the soil and through fungus and my cereal? No, it's fascinating stuff. They allocate resources to plants that need a more, to trees that need the more. They seem to have... Commodore? Yeah, they seem to have some sort of a shared information network that we don't totally understand. I think you can find something on it. But it's... I mean, I think relatively recently understood and just basically understood over the last few decades.

1:25:46But people like Paul Stammett, who's a mycologist, has been studying this type of stuff. And it's really amazing. Like there's some sort of intelligence to it, the way it works. Uh -huh. Does it say underground networking, the amazing connections beneath your feet? Well, maybe evolution went in the direction of interconnection because maybe the survival value was higher if you connected these... Scroll down, Jamie, right there. So this is what it's saying. When most of us think of fungus, we imagine mushrooms sprouting out of the ground. These mushrooms are in fact the fruit of the fungus. While the majority of the fungal organism lives in the soil interwoven with the tree roots as a vast network of mycelium.

1:26:27Mycelium are incredibly tiny threads of the greater fungal organism that wraps around or bore into tree roots. Taken together, mycelium composes what's called a mycorrhizal network, which connects individual plants together to transfer water, nitrogen, carbon and other minerals. German Forster, Peter Wallen, how do you say that? Wall... Wallaben.

1:26:56Wallaben.

1:27:01We just think of soil as something that the tree pulls nutrients from, but no, it's all... they're communicating, they're connected with each other in the forest. Well, realize that when you have a chemical process involving life, you are in some sense looking at a quantum computer. It's doing a quantum calculation. It's taking nutrients from the soil, nutrients from the air, combining it to create cellulose or whatever is made of. And so we're talking about something that we cannot duplicate without gigantic devices looking like a chandelier. But the nature can do it with a root. Yeah, it can do it with everything.

1:27:38It seems to be an insect, it seems to... there's like a code to it, which is why your idea about there being this god calculation is so fascinating. It seems like it just moves in a very certain way, and it's all connected to each other in some way that we're as human beings just sort of starting to understand. Well, there is a theory that says that the big bang went in a direction compatible to life, and that other universes may not be compatible with life. They may be lifeless collections of electrons and neutrinos, for example, but our universe is special. Our universe has stable protons out of which you could create atoms, out of which you could create DNA, out of which you can create people.

1:28:26How many universes have that property? So a strength theory, for example, gives you other universes which are probably dead universes, universes which have no life. But our universe has stable protons, stable DNA, stable forms of life. So our universe is rare. So this is called the Anthropic Principle. The feeling that our life is not random. Our universe is special. Our universe is special in the sense that it didn't have to have life, but it does. And life in a spectacular array of diversity, so our universe really is special. But is it special because we don't know of any of the universes? Yeah, but the other universes that we played with, mathematically speaking, are not compatible with life.

1:29:13Stars burn out too quickly. Galaxies simply fall apart. Protons disintegrate. It's very hard to create a universe which is stable. So some people think that our universe is special among all the different kinds of universes, that our universe is unique, because it's compatible with stable protons and DNA. But it's hard for most people to even grasp the concept of other types of universes or other universes period. Or the fact there may be an infinite number of universes. Well, that's the multiverse. Strength theory probably has an infinite number of possible universes. We are probably the only one that has life in them.

1:29:53We're not sure about that, of course. But these other universes are collections of dead subatomic particles. A floating mist of dead subatomic particles. They don't do anything. If the proton were not stable, then our universe also would be like that. Our universe would disintegrate almost instantly. The fact that our proton is stable is quite remarkable. Do you believe that that's unusual? Unusual. In fact, maybe unique. There are probably very few universes with stable protons. You see, strength theory gives you many, many diverse solutions. So we can actually look at these other alternate universes.

1:30:30And we see that they're not compatible with life. And why do you think that... If the proton is stable here, what would it be about these other universes? Like what qualities would they possess where it wouldn't be stable there? Everything would decay. Decay down to electrons and neutrinos. So it would be a gas, a cloud of electrons and neutrinos. Which are the lowest state of matter? You can't get any lower than an electron and a neutrino. That's the lowest state. So these universes would basically disintegrate. They would fall apart into a cloud of neutrinos and electrons. Our universe has stable protons.

1:31:07Out of which, you can create elements. Out of which, you could create DNA. Out of which, you can create life. That's a miracle. So it's just because of these calculations that you've done, that you've done where it says if the universe had different properties. You would think that this is rare. Very rare. Because there's so many other possibilities of how the universe could... If stars burn tock more quickly, for example, because the nuclear force was stronger, stars would never ignite. If the nuclear force were weaker, stars would never form to begin with. If gravity were too strong, we would have had a big crunch.

1:31:41We'd all die in a gigantic fireball. If gravity were too weak, we'd all freeze to death, because we would have a big crunch, a big freeze. So all the parameters of the universe are tuned just right to allow for life. Wow. Now, there's two ways of looking at it. One way that some physicists have proposed is that we are the chronic achievement. We are the only universe that's stable, that has life, that has diversity, that creates life. The other possibility is that there are just lots of dead universes. And we just want to crack shoot. Doesn't that possibility jive more with the state of the universe as we understand it?

1:32:18Because we're always looking for these Goldilocks planets, which are very rare, which may inhabit life, or may have life on it. But we look at our own solar system, and there's just us. In other words, there could be a Goldilocks zone for universes. Yes. Just like there are solar systems, of course, is the Earth is not too far from the Sun, not too close. But we could be in the Goldilocks zone of possible universes. And that's where we're here today to talk about it. But there also could be an infinite number of universes like ours, and also an infinite number of universes that are completely incompatible for life.

1:32:52That's right. This is what I do for a living. We work in the multiverse. Yeah, no wonder why you don't want YouTube. Do you have time for recreation? Do you do stuff outside of physicists? Or stuff? Well, I like to figure skate. Really? Yeah. On the winter time, you go down to the Central Park and dance around. I used to skate at Rockefeller Center all the time. Yeah. Yeah. I like to spin and jump. That's great exercise. Yeah, it's all new 20 -in physics that work. Ah, of course you like it for that reason. So that's your hobby. Yeah, that's my hobby. And other than that, you're just constantly thinking about these things.

1:33:34Yeah, but again, it's fun. Oh, yeah. I mean, to me, this is what I wanted to do when I was eight years old. When I was eight years old, I said, this is for me. Oh, your passion is very, very clear. And it's one of the things that makes you such a great science educator is that you have such enthusiasm for these subjects. And they're so interesting to you that it becomes interesting to other people. Yeah. But in a sense, like people like you are not in a sense, like you're so important for the discussion. Because it ignites inspiration the same way Einstein ignited inspiration in you by seeing that photograph of his desk.

1:34:07Like these kind of speeches that you do and these conversations that you have with people, for a person like myself who doesn't study these things, it gives me the chance to delve into how your perspective is and just to look at it through your mind. Right. And for me, it's hard to believe how a person could not be thrilled when they learned about the Big Bang. They learned about the strings there. They learned about parallel universes and wormholes. For me, it's incredible that people, some people are not thrilled by something like this. Do you ever think about technology and its capabilities and intelligence and extrapolate as far as possible and think we are essentially going to become something akin to a God or whatever we become will become something akin to a God.

1:34:58If you keep, if we don't get killed by a natural disaster or our own stupidity and you accelerate time, a thousand, two thousand, five thousand years ahead of us, what do you anticipate will be like? I think about that a lot because we talked about type one, type two, type three. By the time you are a type three civilization, you have the energy to manipulate the Planck energy. The Planck energy is the ultimate energy of the universe, of the quantum theory. You take the quantum theory and relativity and scale it up all the way. It's letter -ripped. What is the highest energy you can attain and then something new happens?

1:35:36That's called the Planck energy. It's a quadrillion times more powerful than our biggest atomist measure in Geneva, Switzerland. At that point space becomes unstable. We think of empty space being stable. Of course, how can you do anything with empty space? The system does nothing. But when you start to boil space, when you start to boil space to the Planck temperature, all of a sudden it becomes unstable. Bubbles begin to form and these bubbles are gateways to other universes. These are baby wormholes to other universes. We think that our universe was one of these. Most of these universes like boiling water pop out of existence and they pop back in.

1:36:19They never get anywhere. But one of these bubbles kept on going and that became our universe. Our universe was created because empty space was heated to the Planck energy. And at that point space itself began to boil. And the boiling of space created the universe. That's where the universe itself came from. Is it possible that human beings or whatever we're going to become could eventually someday attain the type of power? That's right. We've looked at that. In fact, there are people, friends of mine at MIT, who have written papers about what it would take to become a god. We realized that if you could attain the Planck energy in a box, let's say, somehow, a bubble would form a gateway to another universe.

1:37:07It would expand. It would expand rapidly. And you have to be very careful. If it expands too rapidly, it has a force of, I think, a 10 kiloton atomic bomb. So you have to be out of the way when this thing explodes. But then it simply peels off and creates another universe. And then it disappears. Like a balloon. Like a piece of a balloon that pinches off. If you're on the first part of the balloon, you never see the second part of the balloon. The second part of the balloon has pealed off to create a baby universe. Wow. Okay? So these are called baby universes. And who's written about these things?

1:37:43Stephen Hawking. Stephen Hawking wrote about baby universes that if you could boil space, heat space up to the Planck energy. Space becomes unstable, bubbles form, and these bubbles, one of these bubbles, may just keep on expanding to create another universe. We wouldn't have access to this universe. No, it would peel off just like a balloon. The second part of the balloon peels off from the first part. And the two separate. The two separate. The only way to get reconnected is to a wormhole. But that, of course, is a whole other story. But that would be a possibility of recreating a link between our universe and another universe.

1:38:23So we could potentially create one of these many universes. That's right. And this many universe would exist in a completely different place. That's right. So we've done the calculation. And as I said, it could be a little bit dangerous. The explosion doesn't kill you in the process. But yeah, this is where it would take to create a baby universe. We call this the inflationary theory, because the other balloon inflated rapidly. So this is part of what is called the inflationary universe. And believe it or not, this is the dominant theory of Genesis. Where did Genesis come from? We think it came from this balloon.

1:39:02That empty space boiled. Empty space then created a pocket that then expanded and then pealed off from our universe. This is called the inflationary universe theory, which is the dominant theory in quantum cosmology. Have you ever considered the possibility that that is ultimately how the universe gets created in the first place? The intelligent life forms reach this capability? Well, we're not sure about the intelligent life form, but we think that this is how our universe got created. That our universe was a bubble floating with other bubbles. These other bubbles went back into the vacuum. Our bubble just kept on going and became our universe.

1:39:46But what I'm saying is, imagine if that process was initiated by a super intelligent life form always. Sort of like how a bee makes a beehive. What if humans make the universe or whatever we become makes the universe? That's right. We've done the calculation, actually. What it would take for a human to then create something like this. Step one is you have to have power on the scale of the Planck energy. And the Planck energy is the biggest number that you can possibly imagine. But it is the number at which space becomes unstable. And that's the point at which this bubble then starts to expand.

1:40:26So you've played around with these ideas? That's right. They're published. They're published in Physical Review Magazine. This idea that we will stay static, that we are what we are right now. And that's just what humans are and that's just how it is. That seems like that's whatever we are right now seems like this is real temporary. And I think we're probably the last of our species to experience life not being some sort of a cyborg. Possible. I mean given the fact that throughout history we've played with our appearance. We've played with our bodies. Yeah. Make up and tattoos, perfumes. We try to alter ourselves constantly.

1:41:10Yeah. Because we want to increase our reproductive value. So we get a better made, a better wife, a better husband. So we try to build up our muscles and wear makeup and so on. So we've done this forever. The next step is to alter not just our tattoos, but to actually alter who we are. That's the next step. And that's coming I think. Because we're going to want to enhance ourselves. Yeah. Well, what I worry is that one day we're going to realize that a lot of our problems stem from being human. A lot of our problems stem from our biological needs. And if you look at these iconic images of aliens, they're always genderless, like these weird spindly things that have no use for their muscles other than to just move them around.

1:41:59That's what I really worry about. I really worry that we're going to realize like the only way to really achieve this type two, type three civilization is we have to stop being human. I hope not. But doesn't it seem like what we have and what we love about people? What we love about people, emotions and creativity and love and romance and all those great things and fun and excitement. Those are all biological stuff. Like you really kind of get to the way of progress in some ways. But what's wrong with that? What's wrong with being biological? What's wrong with feeling joy and emotions and things like that?

1:42:36Nothing but it can conflict you and it can get in the way of the greater work. If you're working on plunk energy and you're trying to create a little mini -universes, you have no time to be horny. You have no time to be sad. If all that can be eliminated. If we have all the problems that people have today, whether it's depression or anxiety, and if all that can be eliminated forever, we never have to worry about negative emotions anymore. You can be productive. You can interact with people telepathically. But I think you'd also be sterile too. Probably. If there's no emotion to excite you, you want to do something.

1:43:10To do something great, to do something that makes a difference, that takes a lot of energy. Yes. It takes a lot of mental power, it takes a lot of emotional commitment. And that's what keeps the world going. There's always somebody out there that wants to be better, to create a better world, to open up new pathways. And that requires a commitment, a commitment of energy on that person's life. And that's not easy. But isn't that just a drive that's inherent to human beings that causes us to seek technological innovation? We're always pushing the boundaries of everything. We're always trying to get better at everything, whatever we do.

1:43:48But isn't that like the ultimate expression of that is technological innovation. And the ultimate technological innovation would probably bypass all of our biological shortcomings. What, but sometimes our biological shortcomings is the reason why we like to live. Sure, but if you have like a jealous deity, that seems silly. You know, if you have a god that gets horny all the time and is jealous, or is greedy. Or is, you know, or is greedy. Well, I would hope that we keep our basic foundational structure of wants and needs intact. But the rough edges, I would hope that the rough edges could be ironed out collectively.

1:44:34And I think in a democracy, that's one way to iron out the deficiencies within human behavior. Human behavior is a byproduct of evolution. Evolution was survival of the fittest. So it meant that we had to become at some point cruel to other people. So that's part of our history. But it didn't have to be that way when we have technology. With the coming of technology, there's no reason to have to go to war. Right. To have to kill people and to dominate other people. There's no purpose of that. Unless you do it to control the technology. Unless you're the person that came up with the quantum computer first.

1:45:12And you realize the only way I'm going to be able to dominate is if I enslave these people now. I'm going to move on it now. Well, that's a problem. I mean, there is a race to create the quantum computer. We are in a race, the Chinese, IBM, Google, Microsoft. They're all in the game. They've all thrown the dice and they say, this is the way to go. And so there's going to be competition. I'm sure. And there's going to be, you know, blood on the floor when it comes down to marketing these things and beating up the competition and giving the best price quantum computer to the average consumer. Yeah, there's going to be competition involved.

1:45:49I think socially, the internet has brought about great change. And it's changed the way humans interact with each other. We were talked about how we're sharing culture. Do you think that something like quantum computing could also have maybe like a secondary sort of a result where it elevates human consciousness as well? Because it's computational power and it's ability to change reality as we know it. It's so extreme that all of our petty nonsense that we have with various civilizations warring against each other. All that stuff will seem absolutely ridiculous given the ability that we now have technologically and that we won't be existing in this feast or famine world.

1:46:36Well, you know, the world we live in is digital. The world of the future will be quantum and neural. That is, we're going to have a combination of quantum computers and neural computers. And by digital computers, we'll be left in the dust. We're not going to compute on zeros and ones zeros and ones anymore. We're going to compute on neurons and we're going to compete on compute on quantum atoms. And at that point, they may merge. At that point, the brain may be connected to a quantum computer. Enhancing our ability to do calculations, for example. And do you think that could have a secondary effect on civilization?

1:47:15Like I do think as many problems as we have with the internet, I think it's changed the world for the better. I really do. It's certainly changed our understanding of things. Our access to information, our ability to turn what is and isn't going on in the world. If something along the lines of quantum computing, that's, I mean, what kind of calculator? How much more powerful is it than the greatest computer we have currently? A few million times. Like imagine that. I mean, in application, if that gets used by people, that could, I mean, that could be the thing that gets us out of this theoretically.

1:47:54Yeah, we're talking about virtual chemistry, virtual biology, things in the memory of a computer that we cannot model with zeros and ones, zeros and ones. We cannot model a disease, for example. No way. We want to computers. That's why we build them precisely so that we can model molecules of germs and understand how they operate. So yeah, we're talking about a whole new era. Now, however, I think the main impact of the internet has been to enforce democracy. That it is a democratic force because people can be educated no matter how poor, no matter where they are, they can be empowered. Power derives from knowledge.

1:48:37Yeah. And that's what the internet is all about. Now, of course, there's a downside to it, but in the main, I think is positive. And I think quantum computers will accelerate that whole process. I think so too. And I wonder if it will lead us to a better world. If it will lead us to a better understanding of each other. Much better understanding of how not to destroy the world in terms of pollute the ocean and solutions for cleaning up the plastic and solutions for whatever issues we might have with power generation. When we can boil that down with a quantum computer and figure out much more efficient, cleaner ways to do things.

1:49:20All of the problems that we have in modern society with poverty, with disenfranchised communities and crime, all those things seem like they could be solved. Well, in principle, yes, that's the whole. In principle, the whole is the best case scenario. This will give empowerment to the powerless. Yeah. This will create more goods and services for humanity to raise the level of standard of living of even the poorest nations. And to be able to understand the nature of disease so that we can live longer and more fruitful lives. And in some sense, become immortal or at least near immortality by being able to conquer incurable diseases.

1:49:59This is all within the possibilities of quantum computers. But for me, one of the biggest impacts is the dissemination of knowledge to give empowerment to the powerless so that we can raise the standard of living of the entire human race. What is the worst case scenario? The worst case scenario is that dictatorships will try to get this technology to break other people's codes, to shatter the connections that exist between different nations and cultures, to increase divisions by chatbots. They can create nonsense. They can create all sorts of propaganda. Because they just rearrange what already exists, a dictator, could then write all sorts of different kinds of racist and sexist nonsense and have it spread throughout the internet very rapidly.

1:50:51So that's the problem. So it's really important as to who gets it first. That's right. And laws have to be passed so that we reign in some of these things. Democracy arises with conflict with incorrect ideas. That's where correct ideas come from, from interplay with incorrect ideas. But that could be ruined if people try to seize control of chatbots and the internet to flood the internet with nonsense. Who do you think is going to win this? Are you close to this? Are you following or do we even know what these other questions are? Right now IBM has the lead, but it's like a horse race. The gate has opened.

1:51:31All the horses are lined up and now they're taking off. The Chinese are leading in optical quantum computers using light beams to compute. And IBM is leading in terms of using electrical circuits as the basis of quantum computers. But it changes. You know, every few months, there are different advances being made all the time. This is moving exponentially fast. And how do we know where China's at? Do we have an accurate understanding of their ability? Well, they publish their results and we can duplicate some of what they do. They're taking a different tact. They're taking the tact of using light beams, calculating on light beams rather than electricity.

1:52:14We're using electricity. And there's some advantages and disadvantages of both approaches. That's fascinating. So we could come up with potentially two parallel solutions. And maybe even more. Other groups are anything quantum mechanical could in principle be used to build a quantum computer. And anything you see around you, plants, animals, we all are byproducts of the quantum principle. And so there are many ways of building a quantum computer. But those are the leading ones using electrical circuits and using light beams. How exciting this must be for you to have been that 17 year old boy creating that particle accelerator in your basement.

1:52:53And now being at the verge of what is probably one of the biggest changes or the biggest change the human race has ever experienced. And you're alive to witness it. That's right. If I were to choose any decade or phase of history to be born in, this would be it. Because we're talking about the fact that as children, it was black and white TV and vacuum tubes that exploded. It was a lot of nonsense back then. Now we're putting people on the moon regularly. Every year we're going to send people to the moon. And we're talking about unlocking the secrets of life itself through DNA. So this is a great time to be alive.

1:53:36It's a very amazing time for me. And how old am I? I'm 55. How old are you? I just turned 76. Wow. You look great. Oh, you really do. You look great for 76. So you're 21 years old in me. So you were alive long before the internet. And you grew up before the internet. I was about 27 years old the first time I got on the internet. And I'm so lucky. I feel so lucky to have grown up without it and to realize because I'm seeing it happen what a immense change it is. Whereas my children are growing up having always been on the internet. It's just normal to them to communicate through cell phones and to be able to get on social media.

1:54:16That is a normal part of life for everyone today. But I and you can remember and we can really, truly appreciate I think how great a change this is. Yeah, this is one of the greatest changes in human history. If you were to choose an era of time to be born, this would be it. Do you ever put much thought into simulation theory? You mean like the matrix? Well, the idea that one day there will be whether it's through quantum computing or some other unknown unforeseen technology that creates a reality and artificial reality that's indesernable from this reality, from the physical reality that we believe we currently experience.

1:55:00And if that's true, how do we know we're not in a ready? Well, to have a perfect replication of reality is impossible. Take a look at the molecules in this room. How many molecules are there? Oh, about maybe 10 to the 26 power. One with 26 zeros after it. And to model that many atoms with a digital computer would be impossible. So in other words, the smallest object that can model this room is the room itself. The smallest computer that can model air is the computer itself. There's no nothing smaller than this room that can model itself. Now, once you go to quantum computers, I guess worse, because the quantum computer computer computer is in parallel universes.

1:55:50Not just one universe, but many universes simultaneously. And so a quantum computer could model some of the rooms, some of the atoms in this room, but not all of them. Now, that means a perfect representation of reality is impossible. But an approximate simulation may be possible. But a perfect simulation is impossible. But if we're talking about technology as we currently understand it today, in comparison to technology as they had available to them a thousand years ago, what we can do now is insane. And if you're talking about quantum computing, which is almost available today, and then you look a thousand years from now, couldn't you potentially imagine there could be a world where there's technology sufficient to do what we're talking about, to create a version of reality?

1:56:39Well, if you saw the movie, we're all in pods, and we're all connected to a computer that is the matrix. As long as you're stimulating a piece of the matrix, not the whole thing. But as you walk from place to place, the computer reassembles a replication of that place. That may be possible. But not the whole earth, the whole with the atmosphere, the weather, and so forth. But if you walk from place to place, if that little pocket, if that little pocket of atoms is simulated, then yeah, that may be possible. But what about in the future, when if you extrapolate, like, you're not going to use, what is it, Moore's Law?

1:57:18Yeah, Moore's Law. Yeah, what that calculates how much greater technology is every year. Double is every 18 months. What if we're, when you're talking about quantum computing, what if they use that to come up with something even superior to that a thousand years from now? Could you potentially see a future where some form of life could create a universe? Well, but not on atoms, maybe subatomic particles. There are some subatomic particles. Yeah, but most subatomic particles are unstable. The electron is stable, the proton is unstable. But if you can find a way to stabilize some of them, then it may be possible to increase the calculational ability, and then create a super quantum computer.

1:58:02But I'm speculating at that point. How much time do you spend thinking about, do you have it to go soon? Do you have a flight? Yeah. Yeah, when you have a leave? 630 or so. Oh, you're fine. It's not even three o 'clock yet. Well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm looking at New York Times. Oh, sorry about that. No worries, no worries. Yeah, we're pretty close to you, too. Where was that? What was I saying? Oh, I was saying that if you're looking at the calculations that we can make right now, and just the amazing progress we've made, it seems like if you keep going, it doesn't seem like it's ever going to stop, right?

1:58:40So the potential for power, the potential for having an understanding and the ability to change and manipulate the universe itself, that seems like it's going to eventually be on the table. Yeah, I've thought about that. I mean, the question is, at what point does it stop? We thought it stopped at the transistor. Oh, that's funny. But now we have a billion of them on a chip, the size of your fingernail, a billion of them. So nope, that wasn't a limit. But now we're reaching the atomic limit, so why not compute on atoms? But then what's smaller than an atom? What's smaller than an atom is the nucleus.

1:59:17The nucleus is smaller than an atom. Nucleus is 10 to the minus 13 centimeters, the atom is about 10 to the minus 8 centimeters. So the nucleus is a lot smaller. So these are nuclear. These are non -nuclear devices that we're computing on. That may be possible. So an advance civilization may have a not an atomic computer, but a nuclear computer. And you have to be careful because, of course, you're dealing with nuclear fire at that point. There's a lot of energy packed in that nucleus, as you know from looking at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If I was an alien, I was going to come down and talk to somebody.

1:59:54You'd probably be the first guy to talk to. You'd be one of them.

2:00:00How much time do you spend wondering whether or not these things that they keep seeing in the sky, these things that Pentagon reports on, and all these people are studying? How much time do you spend thinking about that? Well, I think about it because, let's say there's a small chance. A very very small chance that they are extraterrestrial. That could change world history. That could change everything. Everything we know about the universe could be altered instantly if we have some solid proof. And that's why I tell people that if you've ever been kidnapped by a flying saucer, for God's sake, steal something.

2:00:33steal something. There's no law against stealing from an extraterrestrial civilization. No law whatsoever. And, you know, you have bragging rights. And that'll settle the debate right there. An alien ship, an alien hammer, an alien pencil. Yeah. That would just end the debate right there. Well, supposedly, depending on whose story you hear, supposedly the government is in possession of things along those lines. Well, yes or no. I mean, I believe in data, data that leads to a definitive yes or no. Yeah. And here we have no data about secret documents held by the military or secret objects. Yeah, maybe, maybe not.

2:01:14But the proof is in the pudding. We have to see it, we have to analyze it. Before then, it's just hearsay and speculation. Could you understand, though, how our government, if they were in possession of something like that, would want to keep it secret? Because the technology is so superior to anything that we have, just like how we're in this sort of quantum computer race with China, and they have a different method than we do, what if they have a different method of back engineering these things? Well, that's conceivable. It's a theory, but there's no hard evidence either way. Some people say that the fact that we have the microchip and the rocket ship means that we stole that technology from the aliens.

2:01:51Well, maybe, but you realize that if you're a scientist and you've been following these developments, you know all the dead ends, you know all the mistakes that were made. And then you realize it was a miracle that we came up with these things. It wasn't given to us. It was a byproduct of trial and error and whole careers that went into creating the microchip and the wonders of modern technology that we see. There's a vast paper trail. Yeah, there's a huge paper trail, right? So I'm not saying that they're wrong. I'm just saying it's not provable. What about the idea that human beings are a product of accelerated evolution?

2:02:26That's the most fascinating UFO theory. Accelerated revolution from what to what? That we are the product of the mixing of genes of some sort of an alien race and lower primates. Well, it's always great to think that we're somehow noble and somehow beyond the other animals and that we're great. But, you know, the proof is in the pudding. If there's no looking at our DNA, we realize that the DNA difference between us and a chimpanzee was a, the expansion of the brain, b, the dexterity of the fingers, and the vocal cords. So these are the three things that really stand out when you look at chimpanzees and then human genes.

2:03:10And then you realize that, well, that's why we became intelligent. We can vocalize. We can share knowledge from generation to generation. We have a possible thumb with fingers, much more delicate than the fingers of a monkey. And we have eyes, eyes that are stereo so that we can judge distance to the prey. So looking at it genetically, we realize that only three clusters of genes created us. So it's hard to believe that mating with an alien could have done that. Well, I'm not saying mating. I think what the idea is, and obviously these are not credible ideas. This is just fantastic conspiracy theories.

2:03:48It's also, there's a lot of really wild stuff. If you read, like Zacharias Sitchens' work, he was a scholar in ancient languages that translated the Sumerian text. And he believed that the Sumerian text was all telling the story about how humans were a product of accelerated evolution. Well, it's possible, but again, it requires one more step of substantiation. By looking at the internet, you see that there's a continuous line that goes from us to the chimpanzees to the primates. And that a few genes changed here, a few genes here, a few genes there. And Bingo, you get a human being. There's also some puzzles, though.

2:04:30Like the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years. Yeah. That's a big puzzle, right? But apparently, just a small cluster of genes was responsible for that. Because that's just brain size. Yeah. So to increase the cranial size, it only took one or two genes to do that. Now, how do the genes then create the brain, of course, we still have yet to work out? But as far as the size of the brain, it only took a few genes to expand the size of the brain. What reason would the Neanderthal have a larger brain than us? Well, a larger brain does not necessarily mean intelligence.

2:05:07Because there are animals which have bigger brains than us. I think the purpose, for example, is a very large brain. So size is not everything when it comes to intelligence. I think what's more important is the ability to see the future, the ability to imagine alternate worlds that don't exist. That's what the prefrontal cortex does, and that's what separates us from the animals. Animals do not have a time machine. We have a time machine in the front of our head. Is it possible that that's just intelligence as we're measuring it in our ability to manipulate our environment? And that maybe the intelligence that the dolphins experience, because they do have a cerebral cortex, it's 40 % larger than a human beings, that maybe what they're experiencing is a different kind of intelligence, maybe a communal intelligence, maybe some sort of shared telepathy or something that allows them to communicate it a way that we're not capable of.

2:06:00Yeah, possible. It's possible. Right. But my attitude is that what does intelligence do? Intelligence allows us to create a model, a model of where we are with regards to the environment, other animals, dangers, and so on and so forth. And then the ability to see the future, that to me is intelligence. To understand what you're in and then extrapolate it into the future, that takes a lot of brain power. Animals can't do that. No, they don't. The great imaginary worlds that don't exist. And then on an MRI scan, the people, scientists asked the question, if the brain sees the future, but the future doesn't exist, then how can a brain scan show you the future?

2:06:42Because it doesn't exist yet. When your brain scans somebody thinking about the future, they think about the past. They rework all the things of the past, and they make a few changes in the past. That's how they extrapolate into the future. That's how we did it. Animals don't do that. Animals simply go by instinct. But what we do is we take the past, modify the past, and then let it flow into the future. Well, that's what's so fascinating about giant leaps and technology, is that they bypass our imagination and create completely new possibilities that we could have never even dreamed we were capable of.

2:07:20Like what we're experiencing right now. I mean, if you go to Star Trek, they had to go Kirk out and over. They were basically using walkie talkies, right? They never even figured out cell phones yet. But what we're doing now is almost inconceivable, and the future, when these things do come to us, I mean, what are we looking at? I mean, what are we looking at inside of our lifetime? Well, my attitude is the smallest unit of history is the decade. And if you look at history, decade by decade, then you see the enormous progress that we've made. But if you look at the history year by year, it's chaotic.

2:07:59Things go up, things go down, setbacks, take place, and so on and so forth. But when you look at things decade by decade, then you see that there is a progression. There is a path, and the path is toward democracy. The path is toward empowerment. The path is toward creating a middle class. These are the paths that you can see decade by decade, that you cannot see year by year. And I think that is a byproduct of technology. Technology has made a middle class possible, for example. Yeah, it really has. And in technology is what many people think can raise up some of the more impoverished communities.

2:08:36And that part of the problem is that they don't have access to power. They don't have access to all the innovations that we have that make life safer, water cleaner, make it easier to live and exist and have more peace and time to develop new things like we do here. Yeah, and I think quantum computers, I think, will accelerate that whole process. Because that's the aim of the game. Technology, just not for technology's sake, just not to make profits or the companies. Of course, that's also one of the motivating factors. But to enrich the human race, to educate people, to empower people. And I think this is what technology does.

2:09:15Now, AI, of course, will take away jobs, too. But it creates jobs just as well. For example, the blacksmith. We don't have blacksmiths anymore. But we don't cry about it because these blacksmiths became automobile workers. And so, new jobs opened up. And the same thing with AI. People pointed the fact that AI is displacing some workers, especially at the bottom, which is true. But it's also creating new jobs. Jobs that no one even conceived of before. And so, it's a balance between job destruction and job creation. And that's the main effect that AI has had on society. It's a beautiful time to be alive, sir.

2:09:55I'm really happy that you're out there talking about these things. Because it sparks the imagination in such an incredible way. And because of you and because of your work, you really get to understand, like, what the real parameters we're working with here. And what we're really talking about, what's possible. Well, I hope so. That's one of the reasons why I do what I do. Some people say, why do you do this? You mean, you're great at it. You should keep doing it forever. Do you do things independently? Do you have a podcast of your own? I'm on radio. So, yeah. What, what, what, what, what station do you want?

2:10:26Uh, gee, I forgot. I'm going to go to my website. I do so many things. I can't, can't keep track. I just go to my website mcockoo .org, mkau .org. You do really do do a lot of things. Like, how do you maintain your energy levels? Well, like I said, I can't understand how some people are not energized by this. I mean, some people play golf. Some people do all sorts of sports and things. This is what I do. Yeah. Because it energizes you. You know, after a game of golf, people tell me that they feel renewed. They feel robust. This is what I feel when you talk to people, because you're sharing your own excitement.

2:11:05You're trying to convey the excitement that you feel to other people. Well, you do a fantastic job at it. You really do. Well, I try. It's always a pleasure to have you here. So, tell everybody about your book one more time. Yeah, the book is called Quantum Supremacy. Now, what is that? Quantum Supremacy is a time when quantum computers exceeded the power of a supercomputer on certain very specified problems. We passed that point. We now have quantum computers that are millions of times faster than a digital computer on certain select questions. The next step is to make a general purpose quantum computer that works for any problem, not just specific problems.

2:11:47And that may take maybe another decade or so. But again, the stakes are enormous. We're talking about the world economy. Which nation is going to dominate the world economy? What technologies will thrust the world's productivity abilities? That's quantum computers. Now, when this does get implemented, what private companies are creating this? Are they working in conjunction with the government? How does all that get controlled? Well, right now, it's a free -for -all. It's a horse race. It's a free -for -all. The horses are out of the gate. Basically, it's a few key players, IBM, Google, Honeywell, Microsoft, the big boys.

2:12:29They're all jumping in the game and investing billions of dollars to create their version of the future. And the Chinese are right there with their parallel version using optical means, rather than using electrical means to do calculations. And they know the price is not there yet, because of course, they're not operational for general purpose problems. But they know potentially what the price is, and that's to be able to dominate the world economy. Now, what's the worst case scenario if one of these American corporations, let's just say Microsoft. Let's say if Microsoft wins the race, and they develop some sort of functional quantum computer that just blows everything else out of the water.

2:13:11They essentially become like a superpower. That's right. Remember when IBM dominated everything, and then Microsoft comes along, a bunch of teenagers come along. Everyone thought, these are a bunch of teenagers. What can they do, right? And then these teenagers took over the world. So we're talking about something on that scale that's a company that can make a breakthrough, to make a workable general purpose quantum computer, who wouldn't want to buy one. I mean, you're talking about a runaway best seller at that point. Well, also, the power that's attached to that is so enormous that anyone wielding it has unprecedented power.

2:13:54Remember the PC before Bill Gates and company? Yeah. The PC was a toy, a toy in museums, basically. I mean, it was something that you showed your friends, but you couldn't do anything with it, right? And then comes Microsoft, we showed you, no, no, we can do things. You can do your income tax, you can do spreadsheets, you can do this, you can do this, and then it just took off. So we're at the stage now where the computer is still not ready to be used for general purpose calculations, but when it does happen, we're talking about virtual chemistry, virtual biology. Everyone's going to want to jump in the game.

2:14:29Do you think they preemptively some laws should be put in place to sort of regulate this? Well, I think some laws may have to, because of course, this is potentially Earthshaking. The CIA, of course, is well aware of the potential. The government has done seminars on what to do when quantum computers become commonplace, and they're already making recommendations. So for the post -silicon, no, the post -quantum era, they're making recommendations to how to prepare for the post -quantum era when quantum computers can break any known digital code. What does the world look like if there's no secrets?

2:15:06What does the world look like if there's no top -seek information, there's no code cannot be cracked instantaneously? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, some people say, what happens if all the codes are broken? I mean, sometimes this happened in the past. We're still here. It wasn't Doomsday, but it does affect the progress for war. During World War II, we broke the German code. It was a computer that broke the German code. We knew exactly what the Germans were going to do before war actually broke out in certain areas, and that saved thousands of lives. And so that was a situation where that did make a difference.

2:15:45But in the main, nation steals secrets from other nations all the time, and we're still here. For now. For now. Right. If we don't blow ourselves up. But it could be commonplace with quantum computers, stealing from nations could be commonplace. Now, there are ways to thwart a quantum computer. There are ways to get around it. One way is to have a dual system, two systems of the internet, one system based on electricity that all of us use, that are subject to hacking, and the other layer based strictly on laser beams, a laser internet. That would be a way such that anyone who taps into it illegally would immediately alert people, people who shut down that part of the internet immediately.

2:16:30So that's a possibility that people have talked about a dual internet, one internet for governments, for big corporation and banks. They would pay premium price to have an invulnerable internet. An internet by the laws of physics can never be broken. And everybody else would use the ordinary internet. Wouldn't that bother you though? Like, I don't want corporations to have unlimited computation. Well, they're paying for it. Well, I mean, what can I say, right? Right. But the power that comes along with something like that too, when you said laws, well, who's writing these laws? And who these laws benefit?

2:17:04Well, laws will have to be passed, just like with chatbots. Laws are going to have to be passed. Just like freedom of speech is great, but you cannot say fire in a crowded theater. So laws will have to be passed to regulate chatbots and laws may have to be passed to regulate quantum computers as well. Does it bother you that these laws that will have to be passed will get passed by people that probably don't even have a comprehensive understanding of what's possible? Yeah, that's possible. That's always the nightmare. The fact that ultimately politicians will have to carry out people's will. Right.

2:17:38It's not going to be guys like you passing these laws. No, it'll be people that have to, you know, get votes for to get reelected. Yes. And God knows what kinds of issues they have to harp on in order to get reelected, right? So that's a danger that the politicians may mess things up. Well, I can only hope they bring in you. They have a conversation with them about it before they do something stupid. Well, let's hope the scientific community has a say. You know, we want to see it at the table. We're not going to make the decisions, but we'd like to influence the decisions. Well, that would be the best way to do it.

2:18:09But even do you think that even the scientists can, or the physicists can have a real understanding of what is to come? It's just educated guessing, right? It's hard to say. When the transistor was invented, people thought maybe it would be used to signal ships at sea. Yeah. They didn't know what the transistor was used for. Now we realize it changed society. Human society changed because of the transistor. But we didn't know it at that time. Well, listen, again, it's always a pleasure to have you here. You're a national treasure. I really believe that. Thank you. You're such a great communicator with this stuff.

2:18:47And it's so exciting. And I'm going to listen to this back and forth and try to figure out most of the stuff you said. Quantum supremacy, how the quantum computer revolution will change everything. And it is available. Now, did you do the audiobook? No, we had somebody else do it. Why didn't you do it? I want to hear you. It would take four days. Locked up in a room. Oh, I get it. I get it. To read a book of that size. You're busy. I understand. Well, I'll try to listen to it in your voice. Thank you, sir. I really appreciate you always. My pleasure. Great honor. Thank you. My honor. Bye, everybody.